Stone shape and cobble stone wall / road


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does stone shape have the ability to affect an entire wall/road made of individual stone (within the cubic foot limit)? Or would you only affect as any stones as you could touch at once?


According to my reading of the spell, the spell mentions stone in singular form throughout the spell description, so by RAW it would effect a single stone of the cobble road.
That said, I think it is very fair to rule that RAI is that it is supposed to effect up to the entire cubic area if the caster wants.


One stone at a time, or just part of it if it's a really big stone.

Though in most interpretations you can proceed to "glue" a stone to any of its neighbors, one casting at a time, until they are all one solid mass.

Honestly, even that is fairly underpowered for a 3rd (or higher) level spell, but them's the breaks.

Liberty's Edge

Lifat wrote:
According to my reading of the spell, the spell mentions stone in singular form throughout the spell description, so by RAW it would effect a single stone of the cobble road.

Working as intended. That has always been the limitation of that kind of spells (rock to mud is another example).

Lifat wrote:


That said, I think it is very fair to rule that RAI is that it is supposed to effect up to the entire cubic area if the caster wants.

RAI, as I see it, is that is harder to affect thing that have been manufactured for most magic. Without that limitations walls would be extremely easy to breach (what we see in some film notwithstanding, most of the stones used in fortifications are relatively small, the big stones often are simply slab of stone used a outer facing used to make them more impressive [and maybe to make them more resistant to water infiltrations]). In my area castle walls have a lot of bricks in them. They are often made constructing 2 brisk/stone walls a few yards apart and filling the central portion with rubble, lose stones and cement.

That would do wonders against most D&D magic, as the non homogeneous and partially artificial nature of the wall make it resistant to a several spells and some creature powers.
For added protection you can have a spellcaster create a wall of iron as a central layer. That would stop a burrowing earth elemental.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Lifat wrote:
According to my reading of the spell, the spell mentions stone in singular form throughout the spell description, so by RAW it would effect a single stone of the cobble road.

Working as intended. That has always been the limitation of that kind of spells (rock to mud is another example).

Lifat wrote:


That said, I think it is very fair to rule that RAI is that it is supposed to effect up to the entire cubic area if the caster wants.

RAI, as I see it, is that is harder to affect thing that have been manufactured for most magic. Without that limitations walls would be extremely easy to breach (what we see in some film notwithstanding, most of the stones used in fortifications are relatively small, the big stones often are simply slab of stone used a outer facing used to make them more impressive [and maybe to make them more resistant to water infiltrations]). In my area castle walls have a lot of bricks in them. They are often made constructing 2 brisk/stone walls a few yards apart and filling the central portion with rubble, lose stones and cement.

That would do wonders against most D&D magic, as the non homogeneous and partially artificial nature of the wall make it resistant to a several spells and some creature powers.
For added protection you can have a spellcaster create a wall of iron as a central layer. That would stop a burrowing earth elemental.

I know that real life castle walls aren't made up of huge slabs of stone. I also know about the 2 walls with a rubble middle and by a RAW reading of the spell, it would be completely ineffective against manufactured walls.

That said, I feel like a 3rd lvl spell that can only affect a single stone is very underpowered. Granted, it could work wonders on caves and stuff like that, but that seems hugely circumstancial.

Shadow Lodge

My group is small but has been playing together since 3.0, except our GM, he brought to us just a year or so ago. He is very enthusiastic but as he is new he tends more towards RAW than RAI. I can't complain though he does amazing prep, he has pushed us to do more roleplaying, and we are using rules and such that we never really messed with before. In Carrion Crown our Oracle used this spell to very devastating ends, but it was using the spell against buildings (obviously some kind of stacked stones or bricks) to turn some big fights into stalemates or just plan one sided in our favor.

Liberty's Edge

I think that it is a intended limitation.

Compare it with fireball used against a structure: 10d6 for an average of 35 hp of damage, halved to 18 as it is energy damage, then you apply hardness, 8 points for stone.
The wall receive a grand total of 10 hp of damage (and I see good reasons to increase the hardness for brick walls against fire).

Or Meld into Stone
"Meld into stone enables you to meld your body and possessions into a single block of stone. The stone must be large enough to accommodate your body in all three dimensions. When the casting is complete, you and not more than 100 pounds of nonliving gear merge with the stone. If either condition is violated, the spell fails and is wasted."

Or Transmute Rock to Mud (5th level)

PRD wrote:


School transmutation [earth]; Level druid 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (clay and water)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area up to two 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration permanent; see text
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no
This spell turns natural, uncut, or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud. Magical stone is not affected by the spell. The depth of the mud created cannot exceed 10 feet. A creature unable to levitate, fly, or otherwise free itself from the mud sinks until hip- or chest-deep, reducing its speed to 5 feet and causing a –2 penalty on attack rolls and AC. Brush or similar material thrown atop the mud can support creatures able to climb on top of it. Creatures large enough to walk on the bottom can wade through the area at a speed of 5 feet.
If transmute rock to mud is cast upon the ceiling of a cavern or tunnel, the mud falls to the floor and spreads out in a pool at a depth of 5 feet. The falling mud and the ensuing cave-in deal 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage to anyone caught directly beneath the targeted area, or half damage to those who succeed on Reflex saves.

Castles and large stone buildings are generally immune to the effect of the spell, since transmute rock to mud can't affect worked stone and doesn't reach deep enough to undermine such buildings' foundations. However, small buildings or structures often rest upon foundations shallow enough to be damaged or even partially toppled by this spell.

The mud remains until a successful dispel magic or transmute mud to rock spell restores its substance—but not necessarily its form. Evaporation turns the mud to normal dirt over a period of days. The exact time depends on exposure to the sun, wind, and normal drainage.

Transmute rock to mud counters and dispels transmute mud to rock.

Two level above stone shape (one if you are a wizard) and it still don't affect a castle wall.

You need disintegrate, 6th level, to really affect a castle wall.

Or we can consider Wall of stone if you want to create a barrier:

PRD wrote:


Wall of Stone

School conjuration (creation) [earth]; Level cleric 5, druid 6, sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a small block of granite)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect stone wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level (S)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no

This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wall's area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spell's area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenellations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area.

Like any other stone wall, this one can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell or by normal means such as breaking and chipping. Each 5-foot square of the wall has hardness 8 and 15 hit points per inch of thickness. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness.

It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.

One to three levels above Stone shape (depending on your class) and it is still strongly limited by the need to merge and being strongly supported by existing stone surfaces.

Stone shape affecting a single stone seem very in line with the power ot the other spells.

Shadow Lodge

Well my GM will be glad to hear all of this as it supports is side of things. Now the Oracle on the other hand is going to be a bit put out. I wonder if being held together with mortar would make a difference;)

Liberty's Edge

Drowblade wrote:
Well my GM will be glad to hear all of this as it supports is side of things. Now the Oracle on the other hand is going to be a bit put out. I wonder if being held together with mortar would make a difference;)

Mortar is a manufactured substance, so most of those spells will not affect it.


I guess that Stone Shape is only supposed to be useful in natural environments, which means that it is mostly useless as a prepare spell, and even worse as a known spell. Stone Shape is apparently best as a scroll. Wand would be too big an investment outside very circumstancial adventures/campaigns.

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