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Looking at what's been published about Golarion, and reading some of the comments on the message boards, I get a strange sense about religion in the game. We have a myriad of different gods and goddesses, and a myriad of worshippers. Yet the the attitude (of players, I suppose) seems to be that each worshipper sticks to one god or goddess, so that effectively we end up with a bunch of competing monotheisms, rather than a truly pantheistic society, which would be one where everyone acknowledges the existence of all the gods, and appeals to one god for one thing, and to a different god for something else, according to the "portfolios" or "domains" of each god (and yes, I recognize that the domains overlap in some cases). Anyway, I suspect the "competing monotheisms" thing arises because we (the players) come from an essentially monotheistic background - we don't have any experience of pantheistic societies. I feel like this makes for a less rich game than it might be.
Comments?
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And also, most people who make issues about who they worship tend to be the ones that are fanatically devoted to a single god. (i.e. clerics, paladins, inquisitors, warpriests, etc.)
I prefer to imagine that the common folk would probably offer prayers to all the relevant good and neutral gods in their lives, and place either wards or lures to keep their attention diverted, or bribes/appeasements to stay on their 'good' side.
As somewhat evidenced by the multi-faithed cathedral presented in Sandpoint.
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Yeah, I treat it as a pantheistic society, where most people offer occasional prayers to whatever got applies at different times. But they may have one that they worship above all others, if they have a specific reason to do so. You just hear about the most devout worshipers of a single god the most, because they're the extremists.
For instance, I play a cleric of Sarenrae in Pathfinder Society, who is devoted to her goddess first and foremost. But she'll offer occasional prayers to other good and neutral gods, if it seems appropriate at the time. Actually, having worked with a cleric of Pharasma a few times, and having seen several Pathfinders die in her career, I'd say she probably prays to Pharasma to care for their lost souls regularly, just not nearly as much as she prays to Sarenrae.
I also play a bard in PFS who doesn't have a deity listed on his character sheet, because he's not a devout follower of any one, and doesn't get any mechanical advantage from any religion. But as a freed slave, primarily an archer in combat, and bardic performer/spellcaster, he routinely offers prayers thanking Cayden Cailean for his freedom, Erastil for his skill with a bow, Nethys for his magical ability, and Shelyn for his performing ability. And yes, he is a member of the one and only alignment (NG) that's within one step of all four of those gods.
Looking at what's been published about Golarion, and reading some of the comments on the message boards, I get a strange sense about religion in the game. We have a myriad of different gods and goddesses, and a myriad of worshippers. Yet the the attitude (of players, I suppose) seems to be that each worshipper sticks to one god or goddess, so that effectively we end up with a bunch of competing monotheisms, rather than a truly pantheistic society, which would be one where everyone acknowledges the existence of all the gods, and appeals to one god for one thing, and to a different god for something else, according to the "portfolios" or "domains" of each god (and yes, I recognize that the domains overlap in some cases). Anyway, I suspect the "competing monotheisms" thing arises because we (the players) come from an essentially monotheistic background - we don't have any experience of pantheistic societies. I feel like this makes for a less rich game than it might be.
Comments?
There's a couple of things here.
First, the setting isn't pantheistic. It's polytheistic. Pantheistic means that you believe that the entirety of the universe is composed of a singular immanent divinity. This deity isn't anthropomorphic like you see in Pathfinder. There is no set personality. Instead, the divinity is the cosmos and the rules of nature.
The examples of monotheism you see in the polytheistic society are known as either henotheism or monolatry. Henotheism is when you worship a singular god, but acknowledge the existence of other gods that are worthy of praise. Monolatry is the worship of a singular god and the acknowledgement of other gods, but you do not deem them worthy of worship. Both can exist fairly well in a setting and in fact do. You see this in history and modern day.
In a standard polytheistic setting, you more often than not see henotheism. Clerics and Inquisitors generally practice this, and to the player, it makes sense. The cleric is a singular worshiper of the a god, but also know that there are other gods. So to the player, it makes sense that they'd really focus on one god and not really worry about other. Ultimately, for a cleric and inquisitor, the deity is there not as a thing of worship, but as an option of customization. For Oracles, it opens up more options for religious characters. They could worship a true pantheon, but again, religion is less of a way of life for the player and more just an option to customize their character.
Another thing is that outside of divine classes, religion doesn't cross the minds of a player for their character. There is no customization options for it, so really, only someone that is into roleplaying would bother dealing with the gods. Nothing wrong with either approach, mind you. In addition, GMs usually don't bring in other gods unless they are enemies (evil cultists), or NPC allies. You don't see the common man going to churches or shrines in adventures. If a GM described a lot of these interactions, put religion more in the forefront, and add boons for non-divine characters, I think you'd see a lot more people using religion beyond a seingle deity. And I think that would make it a more rich experience.
I know Eberron made a big deal about people worshiping the actual pantheon, and Golarion has boons for worshiping an entire pantheon in Faiths and Philosophies (unfortunately, it's mislabelled as Pantheism :( ). Mechanics incentives plus the GM saturating the setting in religion will help players to expand themselves beyond playing a henotheist cleric or shamanistic druid.
As Odraude says, pantheism is the belief in a single non-personal, non-anthropomorphic deity, often identified with nature. Polytheism is the belief in multiple deities. Despite the linguistic similarity between 'pantheon' (all the gods in a polytheistic belief system) and 'pantheism,' the concepts are not related.
James Sutter has stated that the misuse of the term in Faiths and Philosophies was an error arising from insufficient research.
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I'd rather not kick a man while he's down and make assumptions about his lack of competence in their work, especially when they've admitted their mistake and apologized.
I know Eberron made a big deal about people worshiping the actual pantheon...But wasn't the Pantheon in Eberron just a name only. The Silver Flame was real but probably not divine, however the pantheon (including the Dark Six) were simply personifications of principles, right?
In Eberron, it talked more about the place of religion in the setting. It was more than just the standard you see in D&D. It actually got into daily life of people and how religion affected them, even if the gods were more distant than what's usually seen in the standard setting.
The narrow focus is a player thing. A lot of players devote and converse about key aspects of their characters and tend to gloss over non mechanical subsets.
So in rl a man can be a member of the Republican party sit on the pta support ducks unlimited and couch little league. If you were to play him in a to simulation game its likely a feat rewards him for only one of these.
Pf and similar games reward narrow focus and this isberflected when players talk about religion in the game.
For the record pre-world wound sarkoris may be my favourite parr of the setting for religion.
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I asked about something similar in an old thread, though it focused more on the design of churches in Golarion. I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that a lot of towns in the setting had a single church, to a single deity, but then Polytheism was the thing.
I'm reminded though that most of the deities, in their write-ups, don't actually have big churches.
Cayden is worshipped in bars; Abadar in guildhouses; Erastil is praised in hunting lodges. It got me to thinking: why would there even be churches at all in Golarion?
But coming back to your central point I think the church thing ties in. If you don't need some central, sanctified place to worship your deities then that worship becomes at once more personal and more subdued. Imagine the life of Zeb the Younger (NG male human expert [woodsman] 1).
Zeb wakes in his little cottage and rain is threatening. He needs to go check his traps so he offers a quick prayer to Gozreh for better weather. Then he checks his gear and does a practiced routine of morning devotionals to Erastil (a lawful god). Then he's out into the woods checking his traps, but not before locking his door behind him, absently muttering some praise to Abadar for watching over his house while he's out.
So Zeb heads out into the woods, finds some rabbits and thanks Erastil for this bounty. But then on his last trap he finds the bounty mangled, the snare shredded. Tracks in the area are that of a fox but they're confused, like the animal was acting crazy. Zeb asks Desna for a safe, swift trip back to his door and tosses a bit of salt over his shoulder to ward off the evil he suspects infected the fox (perhaps put there by the Rough Beast).
A sudden sound. Movement on a side trail. Zeb draws his shortbow, knocks an arrow and begins whispering "Deadeye, make my shots true, Deadeye, make my shots true" over and over. The crazed fox, it's mouth slavering with foam, darts out of the undergrowth. It tears at Zeb's leg, its madness evident in the savage attack. Blood is drawn. The woodsman shakes free of it's bite and staggers back, fear dispelling the pain. With practiced skill he draws, aims and fires; the fox is pierced through the throat and falls.
Erastil is praised, but Zeb knows he's not safe yet. He stumbles home as fast as he can. If he doesn't get the wound clean and closed fast the Frothing Sickness will kill him in days. Back in his cabin the woodsman pours some weak beer in the wound and winces, then repeats pleas for health to Saranrae as he binds a poultice to the bite. He then goes outside and builds a fire, offering up one of the rabbits in the blaze, hoping the food and the heat will entice the sun goddess to send down her smile on his wound.
I guess that's what I figured life is like in Golarion. That being said, it's really hard to GM something like that. Every once in a while I'll make a point to mention how there's a special mug nailed over the bar or perhaps repeat a ritualized Abadaran greeting from the NPC as the characters enter a shop.
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I find it a little bit offensive that they have "churches" and "cathedrals" to polytheistic gods at all, just as I would if they had synagogues or mosques to those gods. The proper generic terms are temple and shrine.
While you're correct about the most appropriate word usage, I don't see the point in being offended. But then, I rarely do.
I asked about something similar in an old thread, though it focused more on the design of churches in Golarion. I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that a lot of towns in the setting had a single church, to a single deity, but then Polytheism was the thing.
I'm reminded though that most of the deities, in their write-ups, don't actually have big churches.
Cayden is worshipped in bars; Abadar in guildhouses; Erastil is praised in hunting lodges. It got me to thinking: why would there even be churches at all in Golarion?
But coming back to your central point I think the church thing ties in. If you don't need some central, sanctified place to worship your deities then that worship becomes at once more personal and more subdued. Imagine the life of Zeb the Younger (NG male human expert [woodsman] 1).
** spoiler omitted **...
In the starting town in the first Reign of Winter module there is only a single temple. It is dedicated to one god with a priest dedicated to that god but it includes shrines to multiple (but not all) gods.
I find it a little bit offensive that they have "churches" and "cathedrals" to polytheistic gods at all, just as I would if they had synagogues or mosques to those gods. The proper generic terms are temple and shrine.
I have some Jewish friends that dislike places of worship being called a temple. That's been one of the their complaints for a long time, is that RPGs keep using temple and it offends them. I also know some Wiccans that hate the witch class, Catholics that find the Inquisitor to be offensive, and Christians that find the concept of worshiping any deity to be anathema.
No matter what word is used, someone's going to be offended. Honestly I think it's kind of silly and people should be able to separate the game from their spiritual lives. But, haters gonna hate.
I think this is interesting. Many of the words being used here are language specific as much or more than religion specific. You would have to go for something like sacred space or house of worship to get to a generic term.
Yes polytheism is hard for people particularly those who culturally identify with monotheism. This at the end of the day is a flavor issue more than anything else. If DM's played NPCs as respecting multiple gods and not as competing monotheism it would begin to fix itself.
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Religion in Golarion. Not dictionary time with smart people.
I still assert there's little to no need for centralized "Houses of Worship" in Golarion at all. If everyone is worshipping multiple gods, based on their need at the time, why would anyone build a special place for one?
Religion in Golarion. Not dictionary time with smart people.
I still assert there's little to no need for centralized "Houses of Worship" in Golarion at all. If everyone is worshipping multiple gods, based on their need at the time, why would anyone build a special place for one?
It happened in real life. Sometime for political reasons. Preference. A certain God speaks to a person more. Culture has a historical connection to that God. There are a good amount of reasons for it.
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Sometimes they're like historical monuments: a place where a miracle occurred or a battle whose tide was turned by the interventions of a cleric. The spot is considered sacred, people start to show up to see where it all happened, and you need a place to keep off the rain and install a gift shop.
Sometimes a village just wants a nice place to hold weddings and funerals.
Sometimes a ruler sets up a church to try to enforce the worship of X or Y deity among his or her subjects and assigns minions to take attendance just to be sure.
Sometimes people just want a reliable place to find the local cleric in case of emergency ... and the local cleric's family is sick of them turning up at dinner time or bath time or while the children are sick.
Sometimes a rich guy is getting old and wants to ensure he goes somewhere nice after he dies so he needs somewhere to donate a stained glass window.
There's all kinds of reasons for various places of worship to exist.
You have to build churches/temples/pagodas so people know where to go to give offerings.
It happened in real life. Sometime for political reasons. Preference. A certain God speaks to a person more. Culture has a historical connection to that God. There are a good amount of reasons for it.Religion in Golarion. Not dictionary time with smart people.
I still assert there's little to no need for centralized "Houses of Worship" in Golarion at all. If everyone is worshipping multiple gods, based on their need at the time, why would anyone build a special place for one?
The real life parallel I could draw from this would be christian saints.
Historically most were genuine people who at some time and place accomplished something wonderful that enshrined them forever in the local populace. After a while, people associate themselves with that deity.
In Golarion, it could have been a powerful event associated to a specific deity and a shrine was built in memory/honor of that event, and civilization built around it.
Not too different than building a statue in honor of a past hero or associating with the local sports team of where you grew up. You don't care what the statistics say, it's your team/hero/god and it's *way* better than the other guys'.
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More examples of multi-denominational temples, like in Sandpoint, could go a long way to addressing this sort of thing. Golarion kind of has an uphill struggle on this point, in that few of the gods (other than the dwarven pantheon) are in any way related to each other. It might make sense, in Greyhawk, to have a church to the various Sueloise gods, many of whom are family, or share other connections (such as the romance between Wee Jas and Norebo), but in Golarion, that's not so common.
Although churches/temples to the Godclaw could be a thing, in areas of Cheliax where they are revered as a mini-pantheon of law.
Older temples of Aroden might have served as holy places to Charlie and his Angels (Iomedae and Arazni), but with Aroden and Arazni being more or less dead and gone (more in his case, less in hers), those temples would be all-Iomedae, at present, unless she follows in Aroden's footsteps and begins sponsoring demigods that fit her ethos, like the Empyreal Lords Falayna, Olheon and Ragathiel. (Aroden was clearly willing to sponsor demigods who didn't share his LN ethos exactly, but Iomedae seems less likely to be so open-minded...)
Various other gods could similarly draw upon empyreal lords (if good), archdevils (for Asmodeus), kyton demagogues (for Zon-Kuthon), etc. to create their own mini-pantheons.
Other faiths seem very unlikely to play well together. While Nethys and Sarenrae, for instance, don't have any specific reason to be fighting, their churches warred against each other in Rahadoum with such fervor that it drove an entire nation to throwing all religion out with the bathwater. There's also some inconsistencies in print about Sarenrae's church taking over Anghazd's Spire (sp?), a Nethyn holy site in Sothis. I'm not sure if that was a typo and has been Paladin-of-Asmodeus'd with extreme prejudice, or just another incidence of those two faiths having reason to dislike each other.