Did I mess it up ? (Spoilers)


Rise of the Runelords


Hi !

I'm a noob at pathfinder and my players are too. We have played homebrew games for 20 some years, but we never played d&d or other published games. I decided to try pathfinder, and for 6 months, I've listened to podcasts and read a lot and bought a lot. Yesterday, I GMd the 2nd session of rise of the runelords (anniversary edition), and I'm afraid I messed it up. I'd like to have some tips or reactions please, as well as some answers, because I'm quite desperate.

1. When they are asked by Hemlock to go to the desecrated vault of father Tobyn, Hemlock and 2 soldiers went with them to guide them in the cemetery and to check them as they did their thing, but as a GM, I wonder if Hemlock should have gone alone, or did the job himself and opened the crypt himself. I let the PCs do it with Hemlock in the background, but it felt to me a little artificial. Not a big deal, maybe he wanted to test them...

2. With the discarded robe of bones in the vault, I described it to my players, but I thought that they should roll a knowledge arcana to know what this is, and nobody had a good score, so they went to father Zantus for an answer, and he said it was a necromancy robe that summonned skelettons. I know, in the core rules, there is no necromancer (I don't know if it exists at all in fact), but in role play, I thought at the moment that it was a good term to use. Should they have known what it was, or is it ok they didn't ? (Same thing with the potions of healing they found in the goblin bodies in the first session, I made them roll a knowledge nature to find out which potion it was, is it ok?).

3. I felt that my players were a bit "bored" with this section of non-action, with all the NPC encounters (Foxglove wanting to hunt, Shayliss that was rejected by the fighter, their own personal stuff...), so I skipped the hunt with Foxglove (he wanted to go at dawn and sleptover finally), and I felt that they wanted to go elsewhere, so I made Hemlock go to Magnimar sooner than expected (3 days before Shalelu arrived) and ask the PCs if they wanted to stay in town while he is away. Now, with 2 days before the end of the week (for which they have been paid 50 gp each (is it enough, too much?...), because they don't stop saying they are mercenaries, not heroes), I wonder if I messed it up. They are now with mayer Deverin and Shalelu, and I don't know what to do. They wanted to go with Shalelu "hunting" the gobelins and checking the region, but she said she worked alone. Next morning, I think I'll have the halfling barmaid give them the Tsuto note to make them think of other things than leaving...

4. Overall, I wanted to add my grain of salt to this adventure, to role play it the way we did with our home games, mixing it up, but I think for now I'll just go with the book and try to respect the order of things to come, because as well as I have experience GMing and making my own stuff, yesterday I lost control of the situation and at one point, I didn't know if my mistakes were too severe or not. Of course, my players don't know that Sherif Hemlock should still be there, but I know that when they'll be in the catacombs of wrath, he'll be back from Magnimar with help, so when they will go to thisletop later, why would Hemlock and his help not go with them ? Aaahhh! I don't know what to do ! How can I let the NPCs behind logically ? And if they are still not back from Magnimar, will my players say "we'll go find out what they are doing, maybe they are in trouble?"...

Any help will be very appreciated.


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Avenka Thalma wrote:
I'm a noob at pathfinder and my players are too. We have played homebrew games for 20 some years, but we never played d&d or other published games.

Welcome! You've come to the right place! Did you develop your own game systems as well, or just no purchased modules?

Avenka Thalma wrote:
1. When they are asked by Hemlock to go to the desecrated vault of father Tobyn, Hemlock and 2 soldiers went with them to guide them in the cemetery and to check them as they did their thing, but as a GM, I wonder if Hemlock should have gone alone, or did the job himself and opened the crypt himself. I let the PCs do it with Hemlock in the background, but it felt to me a little artificial. Not a big deal, maybe he wanted to test them...

This is a common complaint. Hemlock ended up being called, "Sheriff Useless" in more than one campaign. Go with your gut. Get into Hemlock's head. What is he trying to accomplish? Is he trying to test the mettle of these new "heroes"? In that case, he lets them do it, then says, "Great job! I really wanted to see what you could do. I've been looking for some extra help with the guard, so I was wondering whether you're interested..."

Provides a nice lead-in to the later events when he leaves town and puts them in charge.

Avenka Thalma wrote:
2. With the discarded robe of bones in the vault, I described it to my players, but I thought that they should roll a knowledge arcana to know what this is, and nobody had a good score, so they went to father Zantus for an answer, and he said it was a necromancy robe that summonned skelettons. I know, in the core rules, there is no necromancer (I don't know if it exists at all in fact), but in role play, I thought at the moment that it was a good term to use. Should they have known what it was, or is it ok they didn't ? (Same thing with the potions of healing they found in the goblin bodies in the first session, I made them roll a knowledge nature to find out which potion it was, is it ok?).

You played this perfectly. Players need to have a reason to buy Knowledge skills. Yep. They have to identify all the potions, wands, and other magic items they find, or have someone else identify them. And just because it's not a core class doesn't mean you can't use the term. There are wizards who specialize in the necromancy school. Most people call them necromancers. The only "error" was that all magic items are identified using Detect Magic and Knowledge: Arcana, with the exception that you can use Perception to identify a potion. On the other hand, mixing up the required rolls in your home campaign is fine because you can have different PCs saying, "Oh, a potion! That's Knowledge: Nature! I'm up!" Seems OK as long as your players know it's a house rule.

Avenka Thalma wrote:
3. I felt that my players were a bit "bored" with this section of non-action, with all the NPC encounters (Foxglove wanting to hunt, Shayliss that was rejected by the fighter, their own personal stuff...), so I skipped the hunt with Foxglove (he wanted to go at dawn and sleptover finally), and I felt that they wanted to go elsewhere, so I made Hemlock go to Magnimar sooner than expected (3 days before Shalelu arrived) and ask the PCs if they wanted to stay in town while he is away. Now, with 2 days before the end of the week (for which they have been paid 50 gp each (is it enough, too much?...), because they don't stop saying they are mercenaries, not heroes), I wonder if I messed it up. They are now with mayer Deverin and Shalelu, and I don't know what to do. They wanted to go with Shalelu "hunting" the gobelins and checking the region, but she said she worked alone. Next morning, I think I'll have the halfling barmaid give them the Tsuto note to make them think of other things than leaving...

This is my biggest concern. Adjusting to make your players happy is 100% fine. But if Sandpoint bores them, they're going to be less motivated to help. Are they just a "fight fight fight" group? Were they uninterested in the people? Nothing you did is of serious concern; it's pretty hard to mess up this AP. But this is one of the more roleplay-rich APs, so a group of players who are of the mind of, "Killed that, what's next?" are going to be very dissatisfied with certain areas that aren't fights at all. For example, a good portion of Book 2 is a murder mystery. How will they handle that? Find out what your players are expecting you to deliver, and deliver that.

Avenka Thalma wrote:
4. Overall, I wanted to add my grain of salt to this adventure, to role play it the way we did with our home games, mixing it up, but I think for now I'll just go with the book and try to respect the order of things to come, because as well as I have experience GMing and making my own stuff, yesterday I lost control of the situation and at one point, I didn't know if my mistakes were too severe or not. Of course, my players don't know that Sherif Hemlock should still be there, but I know that when they'll be in the catacombs of wrath, he'll be back from Magnimar with help, so when they will go to thisletop later, why would Hemlock and his help not go with them ? Aaahhh! I don't know what to do ! How can I let the NPCs behind logically ? And if they are still not back from Magnimar, will my players say "we'll go find out what they are doing, maybe they are in trouble?"...

I don't see a serious issue here. Hemlock's going to Magnimar to get troops to help defend Sandpoint from a goblin invasion. To have the supposed heroes say, "Well, we *think* the masterminds are at Thistletop so why don't you and all your troops come with us and leave Sandpoint totally undefended?" is a bit of a stretch, isn't it?

Hemlock should insist he's going to do his job and defend Sandpoint, but he'll appreciate the PCs investigating, and once they have proof the "longshanks masterminds" are at Thistletop they can come back for help.
By the time they find those longshanks, they'll be so deep in Thistletop that I doubt your players would say, "Heck, let's go back and get an army!"

Final notes:
- Guard pay is usually around 1 gp a day, with "combat pay" if they fight. 50 gp a week for one person is definitely too much.
- If the players decide to bring Hemlock and his army to Thistletop to derail the AP, that's just fine. Have many of the men die (the dungeon has a lot of lethal areas). Have Hemlock taking all valuables to sell off to compensate the loved ones of those who fell. Don't let the PCs level up because they're not earning any XP. It's not *excessively* punitive short-term because you can easily add some down time between books 1 and 2 wherein you can throw in some home-brewed stuff to bring them up to proper level. And once they lose out on loot and XP because they've dragged an army with them, they'll be more likely to want to 'scout ahead' and get the loot themselves.

I am a relatively "gentle GM". In the course of this AP I killed 4 PCs and Feebleminded one. But if the PCs dragged Hemlock and 50 "Warrior 1" NPCs with them to Thistletop I'd go ahead and drop 50 tokens and a mini on the board, say, "OK, here's your army," and then ruthlessly murder those tokens 'til there were only a handful that made it back to Sandpoint. Lots of work short-term, but ensures the players will NEVER bring an army with them again...


Wow, thanks for those answers ! I really appreciate.

NobodysHome wrote:
Did you develop your own game systems as well, or just no purchased modules?

I developed my own system(s) yes. It was easy to ajust things then, but it was too much work (world building, rules...). When I discovered all the richness Golarion offered, I just found my game a grain of sand compared to what pathfinder was.

NobodysHome wrote:

Is he trying to test the mettle of these new "heroes"? In that case, he lets them do it, then says, "Great job! I really wanted to see what you could do. I've been looking for some extra help with the guard, so I was wondering whether you're interested..."

Provides a nice lead-in to the later events when he leaves town and puts them in charge.

I totally should have done that. I'll try having mayor Deverin pass the message to the PCs that this is why Hemlock wanted them with him doing all the work, to see what they were able to do, and mostly letting them know that he could have done it himself...

NobodysHome wrote:
The only "error" was that all magic items are identified using Detect Magic and Knowledge: Arcana, with the exception that you can use Perception to identify a potion. On the other hand, mixing up the required rolls in your home campaign is fine because you can have different PCs saying, "Oh, a potion! That's Knowledge: Nature! I'm up!" Seems OK as long as your players know it's a house rule.

Ok, I'll read that section more carefully, because I don't want to add house rules just yet. Maybe in a year or so, when we'll all be more adept to the game, but for now, I just want to play it plain and simple. I guess my mistake was to think that I would not have to prepare much because it was mostly role play... Still, it's a massive core rulebook, and sometimes, I just want to make decisions of the fly when I don't have the answers to not pause the game too long while I check the rules (like the 50 gp a week I pledged to them...).

NobodysHome wrote:
This is my biggest concern. Adjusting to make your players happy is 100% fine. But if Sandpoint bores them, they're going to be less motivated to help. Are they just a "fight fight fight" group? Were they uninterested in the people? Nothing you did is of serious concern; it's pretty hard to mess up this AP. But this is one of the more roleplay-rich APs, so a group of players who are of the mind of, "Killed that, what's next?" are going to be very dissatisfied with certain areas that aren't fights at all. For example, a good portion of Book 2 is a murder mystery. How will they handle that? Find out what your players are expecting you to deliver, and deliver that.

My players are a bunch that want action, combat or otherwise, and those few days without much action seems to weight on them. I don't want to go too fast, because I'd like a little realism with the leveling. I don't want the PCs to be level 10 in 2 months of adventuring... That's why I tend to slow the action a bit sometimes too much for their liking. I think they are interested in the people of Sandpoint (I used the background generator from ultimate campaign, and one of them has his parents live in Sandpoint and was abandonned as a child. He reunited with them and learned that it was an accident, his parents were captured and forced to let him behind).

NobodysHome wrote:
I don't see a serious issue here. Hemlock's going to Magnimar to get troops to help defend Sandpoint from a goblin invasion. To have the supposed heroes say, "Well, we *think* the masterminds are at Thistletop so why don't you and all your troops come with us and leave Sandpoint totally undefended?" is a bit of a stretch, isn't it?

You have a great point there. I didn't think of that.

NobodysHome wrote:
- If the players decide to bring Hemlock and his army to Thistletop to derail the AP, that's just fine. Have many of the men die (the dungeon has a lot of lethal areas). Have Hemlock taking all valuables to sell off to compensate the loved ones of those who fell. Don't let the PCs level up because they're not earning any XP. It's not *excessively* punitive short-term because you can easily add some down time between books 1 and 2 wherein you can throw in some home-brewed stuff to bring them up to proper level. And once they lose out on loot and XP because they've dragged an army with them, they'll be more likely to want to 'scout ahead' and get the loot themselves.

Another great point. Of course, it would be a lot easier to make them understand that metagaming, but I'll try to make them realize in play all the XP / loot they lose if they do that.

Again, thanks a lot !

I will surely post again here to ask other questions while this AP unfolds. We play every two weeks, and I'll make other mistakes it's almost certain, but it's part of learning :)

PS : 4 pcs dead ? Ouch ! It's a deadly AP...


I'd be concerned about skipping the Foxglove hunt. He comes up later in the AP, and it is pretty important that he has had some interaction with the PCs. The Hunt is there to set up his character so he doesn't just come out of nowhere in the next chapter. It is also used as a clue later on. Read ahead in the AP, then go back and insert the hunting expedition in somewhere.


Oh, they all got raised. That's the "shortcoming/benefit" of Pathfinder. Raise Dead is relatively cheap by the time PCs need it, so players who want to continue playing the same PC can, while those who want to change have an excuse.

And I will honestly say, although I risk the wrath of the similarly-supportive Curse of the Crimson Throne crowd (an awesome bunch. Not good. Not great. Just plain old 'awesome'.), that you're going to find at least half a dozen GMs with over a century of experience among them (heck, Latrecis and I take up over half that century ourselves) who are more than willing to give advice. And most of us don't mind at all if you ignore us. At your peril.

Good luck!

EDIT:

Avenka Thalma wrote: wrote:
My players are a bunch that want action, combat or otherwise, and those few days without much action seems to weight on them. I don't want to go too fast, because I'd like a little realism with the leveling. I don't want the PCs to be level 10 in 2 months of adventuring... That's why I tend to slow the action a bit sometimes too much for their liking.

*SIGH*. Yeah. That's always my downfall. I just intentionally scheduled a Second Darkness game when none of the "action-only" players could show up just so the "roleplaying" group could spend a day interacting with NPCs. Sometimes, you just want to spend a session talking with NPCs and not killing things. Is that so wrong?


Munkege wrote:
I'd be concerned about skipping the Foxglove hunt. He comes up later in the AP, and it is pretty important that he has had some interaction with the PCs. The Hunt is there to set up his character so he doesn't just come out of nowhere in the next chapter. It is also used as a clue later on. Read ahead in the AP, then go back and insert the hunting expedition in somewhere.

Yeah, I made him appear sooner, in the festival in fact, and he already made "friend" with the halfling, so this part is done, that's why I didn't bother to go to the hunt when I saw it would be just another part without real action. Maybe I panicked and I should have had this event, maybe I'll do the hunt another time, I don't know, but at least, his "job" is done...

NobodysHome wrote:
Oh, they all got raised. That's the "shortcoming/benefit" of Pathfinder. Raise Dead is relatively cheap by the time PCs need it, so players who want to continue playing the same PC can, while those who want to change have an excuse.

I think it's a good thing for the sake of seing all of the AP with one group of characters, but on the other side, it seems too easy also.

On another topic, I think I'll bannish access the any rule books during the game for the players (they already have all their feats, spells, abilities printed, copied-pasted from the books, so they have all they need to function in-game). That way, they won't know the price of the items, and I'll be able to adjust the prices if they don't seem fit, like maybe the raise dead... Does it sound like a good idea ?

NobodysHome wrote:
*SIGH*. Yeah. That's always my downfall. I just intentionally scheduled a Second Darkness game when none of the "action-only" players could show up just so the "roleplaying" group could spend a day interacting with NPCs. Sometimes, you just want to spend a session talking with NPCs and not killing things. Is that so wrong?

Nothing wrong with that IMO :)


The things I'd suggest:

1. It's easy to have Hemlock fall into the "useless" role of really doing nothing. I try and offset this by making him an imposing presence, both approachable and respected by the players, but confident and firm when he asks them to do things for him so that they don't just walk off and mock him behind his back. You need to have them at least FEEL like he's doing enough off-camera that their work is justified, but also don't forget that the players are the heroes. They will outstrip him in power at some point, and that's natural. But they should still respect him up until that point. Roleplaying is key to that.

2. The Robe of Bones, I always like to leave mysterious. If someone is keen on making the checks to find out what it is, they'll be hard-pressed to do so due to it's lack of a magical aura and any identifying marks. It's just a black robe with faint magic residue on it. If they REALLY want to hunt down what it is, Vorvashali Voon at the Feathered Serpent shop may be a good tool for that, but it's not a bit of information I throw out early. I like my players to squirm on things for a bit, I think it makes everything more interesting.

However, remember, that with no magical aura left on a drained item, identifying it with Detect Magic doesn't work. Or, at least in my book it doesn't. You should absolutely be keeping items mysterious until players can succeed in identifying them through in-game means. That's why they have skill checks and access to NPCs. It adds to the fun.

3. If possible, never make story alterations until you know the story. ALWAYS read a module through and make notes about how it runs before you play it, because running it on-the-fly and making changes without knowing what they will effect is a good way to write yourself into a corner. Don't do it. If you're going to make changes, know what you're changing and why, so you can re-insert any story bits you may be circumventing. I'm not gonna tell you what to do, just that you should always know why you're changing something, and not just do it for the sake of doing it.

4. Hemlock shouldn't be heading out to help them with Thistletop. He has enough to deal with after the murders at the Glassworks and sealing up the Catacombs, as well as keeping the citizens safe, the town can't afford him leaving. So it's the player's job to go to Thistletop. You CAN give them Shalelu as backup if they need it, but try not to bring her along the whole way as she will massively imbalance things in the party's favor.

I had a player ask why they can't just get a bunch of guards to storm Thistletop, and I had to explain that if the answer to every challenge is "Just get an army to solve the problem", then what's even the point of playing? If it works once, you're just going to suggest it the next time too.

I don't know what NPCs you're referring to at the end, sorry.


@Askren : Thanks a lot for your input. The NPCs I talked at the end were Hemlock with his "army"... But it's true, they have massive amounts of things to do too, and also true that Hemlock should be an imposing presence, I'll just have to try not to order the players to do something though, and give them enough reason to comply, which may prove to be difficult, being a gang of mercenaries... After having read your suggestions, I totally agree that I should not have changed things just for the sake of it, I should definitely focus on a game plan and go with it. We always, as a group, prefered the sandbox style, and it got me yesterday I think. The robe of bones have unfortunately been spoiled to them, but for future magic items, I'll be less generous for sure.

@Everyone : When your players level up in game, do you tend to role play that part ? Let's say they take the skill "linguistics", which if I'm correct gives a bonus language, do you tell them to actually buy a book in game or go to a class to learn this language ? Do you tell them that the level up takes X weeks, or do they sleep and in the morning after they get all their new powers, spells, skills ? It's the part I really don't know how to approach in pathfinder, it seems so many ways to do it are ok...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

When my PCs level up, I figure they've been doing any of the necessary skill/feat training in the background. Once they earn enough XP to reach that level, all the work they've done, both on camera as well as off, pays off in the form of new abilities. I've found that it's almost never worthwhile to deny them skill/feat training for Core stuff. The game assumes you can get it without any hassle. Of course, if your players want to train in some feat they found in a recent Paizo release, then you're free to make that feat as easy or hard to find as you wish!


Yeah, I don't really do anything special with leveling up other than make the PCs take an extended rest to gain their new level (so they don't just gain it in the middle of a dungeon).

Sometimes players will do things like buy an alchemy set or something to represent their new interest and skills they'll be acquiring, but it's not mandatory. It's just an abstract representation of them growing stronger and learning new things through their adventures.

Also, on the subject of changes: A friend of mine ran Runelords and, immediately after the festival, introduced some Necromancer dude for the players to chase. To him, it was just extra content, but the players ran with it thinking this was the actual plot of the book, so when they captured him, they said "Wait, what does this have to do with the goblin attacks?", and were kind of confused when they just went back to investigating that, because they thought that was what they'd been doing.

Changes to an AP can be a great thing if done well, but it has to be for a reason, and you have to make sure to keep things working coherently, or 10 sessions later you're going to be asking "Wait, why are we doing this again?" Always read ahead and be prepared. I like to set my games up as far in advance as I can, so that I know where the plot SHOULD go, and then when the players decide to go do something else, I can tie it back in easily and not get lost.


Avenka Thalma wrote:


1. When they are asked by Hemlock to go to the desecrated vault of father Tobyn, Hemlock and 2 soldiers went with them to guide them in the cemetery and to check them as they did their thing, but as a GM, I wonder if Hemlock should have gone alone, or did the job himself and opened the crypt himself. I let the PCs do it with Hemlock in the background, but it felt to me a little artificial. Not a big deal, maybe he wanted to test them...

Hemlock comes off a little weak unless you anticipate and avoid it, but I think what you describe happens in the vast majority of RotRL campaigns so if it is trouble, it's not much. That he was testing them or interviewing them for future employment is a fine explanation.

Avenka Thalma wrote:


2. With the discarded robe of bones in the vault, I described it to my players, but I thought that they should roll a knowledge arcana to know what this is, and nobody had a good score, so they went to father Zantus for an answer, and he said it was a necromancy robe that summonned skelettons. I know, in the core rules, there is no necromancer (I don't know if it exists at all in fact), but in role play, I thought at the moment that it was a good term to use. Should they have known what it was, or is it ok they didn't ? (Same thing with the potions of healing they found in the goblin bodies in the first session, I made them roll a knowledge nature to find out which potion it was, is it ok?).

I don't think you did anything wrong thematically just not according to Rules As Written (RAW). I suggest reviewing the knowledge skill sections plus Spellcraft and Detect Magic to better understand how they work. And more importantly, have a honest conversation with your players - "This is new. We're all learning. While we're playing I'm not going to stop everything to look every rule up (unless you all want to) but if I make a "mistake" I reserve the right to either correct it or clarify it for decisions in the future." I would also encourage your players to learn the rules pertinent to their characters (hopefully they have paper or electronic versions of the Core Rulebook available to them during play.) You shouldn't be the only one that knows how Knowledge - Arcana works, the wizard player should know that. You shouldn't be the only one that knows how Disable Device works, the rogue player should know that.

Avenka Thalma wrote:


3. I felt that my players were a bit "bored" with this section of non-action, with all the NPC encounters (Foxglove wanting to hunt, Shayliss that was rejected by the fighter, their own personal stuff...), so I skipped the hunt with Foxglove (he wanted to go at dawn and sleptover finally), and I felt that they wanted to go elsewhere, so I made Hemlock go to Magnimar sooner than expected (3 days before Shalelu arrived) and ask the PCs if they wanted to stay in town while he is away. Now, with 2 days before the end of the week (for which they have been paid 50 gp each (is it enough, too much?...), because they don't stop saying they are mercenaries, not heroes), I wonder if I messed it up. They are now with mayer Deverin and Shalelu, and I don't know what to do. They wanted to go with Shalelu "hunting" the gobelins and checking the region, but she said she worked alone. Next morning, I think I'll have the halfling barmaid give them the Tsuto note to make them think of other things than leaving...

Ooh, there's a lot here. 1) the hunt with Foxglove is/was a missed opportunity for action. The boar is much tougher than the pesky goblins. I suggest you try to work it in before the Glassworks - as pointed out above, Foxglove is important later. 2) Hemlock's departure before Shalelu arrives is not all that problematic - it really shouldn't/doesn't take the elven ranger to recognize that multiple tribes joined in on the attack and that means Sandpoint is in trouble. Shalelu is really a vehicle to inform the players about the Sandpoint goblin ecology not really about the danger to Sandpoint. 3) 50gp may be high for a conventional mercenary but your pc's aren't all that conventional and in terms of pc wealth, 50gp isn't even a raindrop in the deluge of wealth they will accumulate so no worries about any balance issues there. I suggest you use it to your advantage: you've been paid, you need to stick around to earn your keep. 4)You are on the exactly right track - the halfling with Tsuto's note should happen the morning after Shalelu leaves. (Part of the character background is that Shalelu and Ameiko are friends and Shalelu is where the maid would definitely gone if she was still here. I'd try to work in the Foxglove hunt first if you can.

Avenka Thalma wrote:


4. Overall, I wanted to add my grain of salt to this adventure, to role play it the way we did with our home games, mixing it up, but I think for now I'll just go with the book and try to respect the order of things to come, because as well as I have experience GMing and making my own stuff, yesterday I lost control of the situation and at one point, I didn't know if my mistakes were too severe or not. Of course, my players don't know that Sherif Hemlock should still be there, but I know that when they'll be in the catacombs of wrath, he'll be back from Magnimar with help, so when they will go to thisletop later, why would Hemlock and his help not go with them ? Aaahhh! I don't know what to do ! How can I let the NPCs behind logically ? And if they are still not back from Magnimar, will my players say "we'll go find out what they are doing, maybe they are in trouble?"...

Adding your own spin is part of the fun of GMing. So don't stifle yourself. I would suggest reading the entire AP start to finish so you understand the entire story flow.

I don't think you have a Hemlock problem at all. The AP is conspicuously silent on how long it takes for Hemlock to get back from Magnimar or even what kind of help he brings with him when he does return. I suggest that by the time they finish the Glassworks and Caverns, he has still not returned. It's two days there and two days back and who knows how many days of political wrangling to get aid (This is in a city where the Mayor can't be bothered to send aid to a Fort that has been silent for weeks... see Book 3). Based on Tsuto's journal, the Mayor should ask them to scout out Thistletop since Hemlock has not returned. (She should encourage them to tackle the Caverns first.)

One last bit of advice: I'd suggest a conversation with your players: it's pretty key they have some level of interest in helping Sandpoint. It's fine for them to be mercenaries with a heart of gold or just mercenaries that want to be paid, but they need to work with you as you get started with at least a measure of buy-in.


I really appreciate all the answers guys, thanks ! I learned quite a lot with all your input, and I'll prepare better for next time. I have a lot of reading to do and lots of prep to do, but I'll be up to it. I'll read again all your answers tomorrow and make some choices with all the options you gave me. I know I'll sleep really better tonight than I did yesterday :)

@Latrecis : Good idea to give them rules for the skills they have, I'll print out a copy of those rules to give them. And with what you said, I think I'll have Hemlock still many days in Magnimar...


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With regards to the Boar Hunt: some of the other players when we faced this had been boasting about their martial prowess and claimed to be able to take on an owlbear...so the boar turned out to be one. It was a very tricky fight but we did manage to beat it, so feel free to change incidental enemies so things are more of a challenge.

Later on, in book 2, the owlbear (now stuffed) was encountered again.


Gilarius wrote:

With regards to the Boar Hunt: some of the other players when we faced this had been boasting about their martial prowess and claimed to be able to take on an owlbear...so the boar turned out to be one. It was a very tricky fight but we did manage to beat it, so feel free to change incidental enemies so things are more of a challenge.

Later on, in book 2, the owlbear (now stuffed) was encountered again.

I just LOVE that! I am seeing this new cycle of GMs coming through and posting all kinds of awesomeness on the RotRL threads. Makes me want to run it again.

Now if only I could find some players... and a time machine so I have time to run it...


There's a fiendish version of the Tickwood boar in this thread, if you feel like making the encounter more challenging.


Gilarius wrote:
With regards to the Boar Hunt: some of the other players when we faced this had been boasting about their martial prowess and claimed to be able to take on an owlbear...so the boar turned out to be one. It was a very tricky fight but we did manage to beat it, so feel free to change incidental enemies so things are more of a challenge.

Mmh, I would like to do that, but for now, the party is totally unbalanced : a fighter that took 90% of the goblins by himself, a bard that does nearly nothing in a fight, and a rogue that is not a lot better :) I would be scared to kill the bard or the rogue...

NobodysHome wrote:
I just LOVE that! I am seeing this new cycle of GMs coming through and posting all kinds of awesomeness on the RotRL threads. Makes me want to run it again.

And all the material around it too ! When the goblins attacked in the festival, my players totally loved that I put the 30 seconds "goblin song" from youtube :)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Which one did you use, Avenka? I couldn't find one that wasn't really quiet or horribly distorted to the point that it was unintelligible. :(


I played out sheriff hemlock as a small town sheriff who is an expert at small town issues like the local drunk and petty crimes. But not someone who is used to crises management so a huge goblin raid or a string of creepy murders is well out of his league. However I also made him out to seem dedicated to town and always working. Once my first player noticed this everyone stopped seeing him as useless very quickly.

That aside they thought he was sberiff useless through most of book 1aswell. I think hes one of those npcs thats tough to like at first but can easily grow on players as time goes by.

Hope that helps a bit.


Misroi wrote:
Which one did you use, Avenka? I couldn't find one that wasn't really quiet or horribly distorted to the point that it was unintelligible. :(

their is a nightmare before christmas inspired version, but yes hard to hear the lyrics:(

you have to search for pathfinder goblin song otherwise its all the hobbit:)


Avenka Thalma wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
With regards to the Boar Hunt: some of the other players when we faced this had been boasting about their martial prowess and claimed to be able to take on an owlbear...so the boar turned out to be one. It was a very tricky fight but we did manage to beat it, so feel free to change incidental enemies so things are more of a challenge.
Mmh, I would like to do that, but for now, the party is totally unbalanced : a fighter that took 90% of the goblins by himself, a bard that does nearly nothing in a fight, and a rogue that is not a lot better :) I would be scared to kill the bard or the rogue..

If you have a fighter, a Bard and a rogue, the fighter will always kill about 90% of the enemies. The bard should be inspiring the rest, and the rogue will either keep getting killed or learn how to do hit and run or ranged sneak attacks.


@Misroi : I used that one :
Go to Goblin song.


@Lord Otter : Every comment helps me a lot, I really like to see how others played, and this site is really amazing for that ! What surprises me is that this AP is 7 years old, and seems to retain as much attention as most others that are new or 1 year old...


@Gilarius : Yeah, and the fighter has cleave and was asking me if I would allow the 5 ft step between his attacks, and I said no to not unbalance more their party... I found different opinions in the threads here and chose to go with those who claim that the conditions for cleave must be respected in the beginning of the first attack, and it's one swing in my game, inspite of the 2 rolls... If the fighter would have been really disadvantaged VS the other PCs, I would have permitted his 5 ft step...


Avenka: For the record, the melee power will slow down at later levels. Fighters dominate early game when things like Goblins only have 6HP and most of the attacks thrown by the fighter do in the 1d8+4 range and above, so it's easy for them to just mow through low level enemies. The flipside is that since everyone only has 1 Hit Die, it's easy to take an unlucky hit at level 1 and be brought down.

That will drop off massively later when everyone has Hit Dice to go around and the Fighter's attack isn't doing 110% of the enemy's health.


Askren wrote:

Avenka: For the record, the melee power will slow down at later levels. Fighters dominate early game when things like Goblins only have 6HP and most of the attacks thrown by the fighter do in the 1d8+4 range and above, so it's easy for them to just mow through low level enemies. The flipside is that since everyone only has 1 Hit Die, it's easy to take an unlucky hit at level 1 and be brought down.

That will drop off massively later when everyone has Hit Dice to go around and the Fighter's attack isn't doing 110% of the enemy's health.

YEha, fighters are great at low levels, but once wizards start getting better spells, fighters will become virtually useless.

Such is life in the land of Pathfinder


Mavrickindigo wrote:
Askren wrote:

Avenka: For the record, the melee power will slow down at later levels. Fighters dominate early game when things like Goblins only have 6HP and most of the attacks thrown by the fighter do in the 1d8+4 range and above, so it's easy for them to just mow through low level enemies. The flipside is that since everyone only has 1 Hit Die, it's easy to take an unlucky hit at level 1 and be brought down.

That will drop off massively later when everyone has Hit Dice to go around and the Fighter's attack isn't doing 110% of the enemy's health.

YEha, fighters are great at low levels, but once wizards start getting better spells, fighters will become virtually useless.

Such is life in the land of Pathfinder

Huh?:
I really don't understand whether that's sarcasm or whether our groups (3 of them) just play different games from everyone else. When a fighter can drop 150+ points of damage per round on a single opponent, there are few AP baddies who can stand up to them. On the other hand, with +15-20 on their saves or more, we rarely see bad guys felled by spells...

...buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control, yes. But those are all used by our groups to get the heavy damage-dealers in place. I don't know of a single spell that does the kind of damage a fighter or barbarian puts out...

EDIT 2: Since I'm really curious, what would a 15th-level arcane caster do to eliminate Gamigen from Xin-Shalast without any melee support?

EDIT 3 (and hopefully the final one): I guess that's just it. After finishing 3 APs with 3 different groups, and being 1/3 of the way through a fourth, we have yet to see an arcane caster being the "godslayer" everyone complains about. Instead, it's the melee characters getting buffed and hasted and teleported on top of the bad guys that are ending all the fights. And three groups fell into that "rut" independently. So I've just never seen the alternative where an arcane caster single-handedly ends the fight, and I'm honestly curious as to how it works.

EDIT: But this is a full-blown threadjack and has resulted in thousands of posts over dozens of threads, so I'm spoilering it and avoiding responding further.


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To answer the threadjack, please ignore if you're not interested:

Buffing the melee guys and getting them into position to unleash all the hurt is precisely how ueber wizards demonstrate their power and awesomeness. They don't kill the enemies themselves. See Treantmonk's guide for a full explanation.

And even that relies on the wizard having the right spells memorised, many normal wizards often stand around doing very little despite all the theorycrafters ideas.


Hi again !

I'm preping for sunday, our 3rd game. I now must roll for magical objects and potions in Sandpoint, and was wondering something, since they include potions in magical objects in the core rulebook : Does shops like bottled solutions and pillbug's pantry have potions on their own or does the 3d4 minor items and 1d6 medium items include their stock ?

Thanks !


I would think that the two alchemists' shops are included in that total.

The temple would also have some potions, based on cleric spells. Maybe ditto Madame Mvashti for druid spell potions? (Although I don't know how steady her hands are by now.) The headmaster at the Turandarok Academy might have a wizard potion or two, ditto for some of the other wizard-type characters in town.


Just to be sure, an example : (probably a stupid one but I'm noob)...
3d4 = 6 minor items, and 34% (10-44) Core rulebook table 15-2, p.461)... of having "minor" potions in them, let's say 2 potions.

1d6 = 3 medium items, so 1 potion for the average...

It makes 3 potions for the entire town of Sandpoint, so I spread them between the shops, ok fine, but what else does bottled solutions sell then ?


The random items are additional items outside of the town's Base Value.

PRD wrote:
Base Value and Purchase Limit:This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp. There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week. A settlement's purchase limit is the most money a shop in the settlement can spend to purchase any single item from the PCs. If the PCs wish to sell an item worth more than a settlement's purchase limit, they'll either need to settle for a lower price, travel to a larger city, or (with the GM's permission) search for a specific buyer in the city with deeper pockets. A settlement's type sets its purchase limit.
PRD wrote:
Minor Items/Medium Items/Major Items: This line lists the number of magic items above a settlement's base value that are available for purchase. In some city stat blocks, the actual items are listed in parentheses after the die range of items available—in this case, you can use these pre-rolled resources when the PCs first visit the city as the magic items available for sale on that visit. If the PCs return to that city at a later date, you can roll up new items as you see fit.

Basically the way I run it is the random items rolled for specifically exist, whether or not they're within the base limit for the town. Everything else under the limit there's a 75% chance of existing, rolled when the players state they wish to purchase said item.

I also say they can automatically find very common things like potions of cure light wounds and such without rolling, though the quantities will be limited, depending on the size of the settlement. (If the party wanted to buy more than say 5 potions of CLW in Sandpoint, for example, I'd start rolling.)


Heh. Sheriff Useless. ^^ You know, I worked long and hard to remove that title for him once it started. The only thing that worked? Have the Scarnettis (who the party hated) try to get him thrown out of office and replaced with one of their lackeys. Well, that and the fact he was nearly electrocuted by Lyrie (in an attack that killed four other guards), dragged himself out of the tunnels, and everyone was "why isn't he dead?"

And no, you didn't screw up. The 50 gold (each?) is a bit excessive, but I'd say it was both reward for killing close to a dozen goblins during a major raid on the town and hiring their services to protect the town for a month.

My group turned down Foxglove's offer to go bore hunting, so they got the monetary reward and he left. It didn't matter and he didn't really "appear out of the blue" (though it did give me a more definite target - wrath in this case - at the person who outright dismissed him).

You might want to add in little background details for the town while they do various things. Just to give it character and make things more alive. Mention children running down the street playing some game with a barrel hoop, or chanting a song about the blacksmith. Have them overhear the baker talking about how a shipment is late (which if the players show interest, could be a means for a quick adventure with the group saving a small merchant from bandits). Just bring Sandpoint to life by having it as a side-note.

Heck, having a youngster glom onto the strongest player and start hero-worshiping him or her might help as well.


I don't like the total-value-per-settlement limit or rolling to see how many potions the whole town has. It doesn't make much sense to me.

HOWEVER, I also don't run things in a "You want a +1 Flaming Greatsword? The blacksmith has one to sell." way. I prefer to run things in a way that makes logical sense to me; A small town like Sandpoint probably acts as a stop-over for travelers to and from Magnimar, meaning the occasional adventurer and trader will come through and buy and sell things. Places like the Feathered Serpent are likely to have pretty much any common low-level potion or wand or scroll, but sometimes I roll in the background to see if a scroll someone asks for is there. 9 out of 10 times though, players don't really even go shopping for that stuff. Cure Light potions and wands, though, they're common and it's likely the town has a few to sell.

As for items, mundane items are fairly likely, they can get any kind of base armor or weapon in town as long as it's not exotic, region- or culture-limted (Katana, Earthbreaker, guns, etc.)and depending on the trade season, common weapons can probably be found in Masterwork quality. Magic weapons and armor are unlikely, and the town probably has a handful among the entire stock of traders, and those items are usually randomize, not customized to the group just because I don't like convenient coincidences like those.

Something like Erylium's dagger, or similarly enchanted weapons, are just straight up more gold than the town has. Like, no one in town is spending 5000gp or more on anything. Not just because it makes no sense economically (who would even have that much cash?), but why would they want to? It's not like they'll ever sell it to anyone else, so it's just a huge loss.

It makes players seek out people in the world so they can unload their magic stuff, and maybe create a use for it rather than just turn everything they find into straight up cash.


Ok thanks ! I'm happy to learn I have some freedom with this, I could not see a town with just 5-6 potions...

@Tangent101 : Yes, exactly what the mayor Deverin will tell them this sunday : the 50 gp was for the week + a thanks from the town for their goblins killing, but she will tell them not to expect always this amount of gold for their work.

I'm ready and I hope this 3rd session will be better, and with all your answers here, I'm now more prepared, so thanks again !


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Tangent101 wrote:


My group turned down Foxglove's offer to go bore hunting.

And now i have an image of a bunch of stereotypical college professors running scared thru the woods saying "My Word!" and "this is quite the pickle we got ourselves into! eh, Reginald? Reginald? REGINALD! NOOOO!" all the while being hunted by Foxglove and the PCs:) thank you!


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You, sir, owe me clean pants.

EDIT: OK. That just sounds SOOOOOOOO wrong! LOL. I laughed so hard I spit coffee on my lap. Former academic and all...


My dad is a retired High School Science Teacher/Social Worker/Robot Programmer/ Quaker-borderline-Atheist Minister so i've met an Academic or 15 in my life;)


also i have the utmost respect for anyone that teaches (or was teacher), no matter what level you don't get paid enough!


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captain yesterday wrote:
also i have the utmost respect for anyone that teaches (or was teacher), no matter what level you don't get paid enough!

- Last of the teacher threadjack in *THIS* thread -

Yeah; at one college tuition was $40,000 a year and I was getting paid $37,000 a year with a Ph.D. and five years of experience. Apparently I was worth less than a single student!

As I've always told people, getting drafted into tech was an eye-opener. A 50% raise for a 33% drop in my weekly hours. Why was I a teacher again?

(And those who love to holler about summer vacation as the reason teachers deserve to get paid less:
Teachers: 38 weeks at 60 hours per week, no vacation = 2280 hours/year. No overtime for any reason, and that's a minimum for being a 'good' teacher.
Employees: 52 weeks at 40 hours per week, 2 weeks vacation = 2000 hours/year. Overtime if you work any more.
Hmmm....)

EDIT: And if we *really* want to go there, we really should open a new thread in OTD. I know that I love teaching, it was the most rewarding job I ever had, and I'd go back in a heartbeat if I could afford it. But last time I checked the salary disparity had increased to the point that my salary would be a bit under half what I'm making now. With two kids and a mortgage, I'm unwilling to make that sacrifice. Perhaps once the kids are through college and the mortgage is paid off...


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You do realize I didn't typo when I said "bore hunting" right? :)

Edit: Cap - how about former substitute teachers? Now those are the front lines... I still get creeped out remembering the time a 17-year-old girl tried hitting on me (I was in my 30s at the time). I so prefer the Knowledge Industries....


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Harrumph! I'm getting my tweed jacket and telling Reginald. Reginald? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


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NobodysHome wrote:

Harrumph! I'm getting my tweed jacket and telling Reginald. Reginald? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

puts down Reginald's half-eaten Leg

Well, this is going to be an Awkward conversation.


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Tangent101 wrote:

You do realize I didn't typo when I said "bore hunting" right? :)

Edit: Cap - how about former substitute teachers? Now those are the front lines... I still get creeped out remembering the time a 17-year-old girl tried hitting on me (I was in my 30s at the time). I so prefer the Knowledge Industries....

substitute teachers get the worst deal! my dad started out as one, they always say if you can put up with being a substitute teacher you can put up with anything!

honestly my utmost respect to both of you:)
R.I.P. Reginald, we hardly knew ye!

EDIT: yes, incredibly sorry Avenka, i can't help myself, i might have a problem:)
there must be another thread we can derail, i wonder what Magnuskn has going on.......
2nd Edit: and yes Tangent and Nobodyshome i am making "the Bores of Tckwood this weekend and will post them by sunday afternoon (hold me to it! also in their own thread;)


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And I for one am profusely sorry, Avenka.

Not all Paizonians are like this.

But if you get me, Tangent, and Captain Yesterday loose on a thread, well...

EDIT: We should all go apologize to Chris on HER thread! :-P


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No problem at all guys :)

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