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The Spellslinger - a mini guide


Advice


Spellslinger Guide

Assuming the link works, take a look and suggest improvements.

Gilarius.


Best advise I can give about that archetype is 1 lvl of spellslinger and then 19 of sorcerer. It front loads almost all its benefits. YMMV


Trench fighter 3>gunslinger 5 imo. Especially since lil' trenchy doesn't even get gun prof by itself.

Also,named bullet with EK 10 is quite amazing, as is if you go with abundant ammo.


On the one hand there's no point casting spells without saves or attack rolls thru the spellslinger's gun as you suggest for Detect Secret Doors/Undead. On the other hand you're missing some good spells from more obscure sources e.g. Burst of Radiance. On the gripping hand there's no mention of non-wizard spells at all despite mentioning the possibility of using the spellslinger mainly to boost non-wizard abilities. Don't you think that a spellslinger/dawnflower dervish bard needs to be reminded what the class helps with?

Also it's possible to play a spellslinger as a single-classed, standard-ish battlefield control wizard with feats mostly devoted to that end rather than ranged combat ones. If there's anything that playing a sorcerer lately has taught me it's that being able to cast any spell on the wizard list is an indulgence rather than a necessity; for a spellslinger in particular Conjuration, Illusion and Evocation cover the necessities and leave you one school for whatever you like most on the wizard list.


Also Mending is still on the spell list. A spellslinger can prepare it in a first level slot (or two of them if Transmutation is an opposition school). It just doesn't behave as a cantrip with the unlimited uses etc. due to losing the cantrips class feature.


Caimbuel wrote:
Best advise I can give about that archetype is 1 lvl of spellslinger and then 19 of sorcerer. It front loads almost all its benefits. YMMV

Yep, that's in the guide.


LoneKnave wrote:

Trench fighter 3>gunslinger 5 imo. Especially since lil' trenchy doesn't even get gun prof by itself.

Also,named bullet with EK 10 is quite amazing, as is if you go with abundant ammo.

Trench Fighter does need adding. If its allowed in a campaign, it'll save 2 levels.

I've used named bullet on play and its pretty good. Why do you specify 'with EK 10'? You can pre-cast it on your bullet and not have to rely on getting a critical to use the EK capstone.


Avr, you have some good suggestions and some that aren't so useful. I'll address some of the non-wizard spells in the next draft, thanks.

And a few alternative classes, however I'm not familiar with all the possibilities so suggest a few more please.

Burst of Radiance doesn't work through the gun because it's a burst. And I only bothered listing the detect spells at all because they technically work, not because I think they're useful like that.

You could take normal wizard feats and ignore the gun feats, but in that case, you'd be better off not being a spellslinger. Why bother having a gun if you're rubbish with it? Be an elf with a longbow!


avr wrote:
Also Mending is still on the spell list. A spellslinger can prepare it in a first level slot (or two of them if Transmutation is an opposition school). It just doesn't behave as a cantrip with the unlimited uses etc. due to losing the cantrips class feature.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Detect Magic and Read Magic are called out as being available as 1st level spells but no other cantrips are.

I'll check for a general rule, but that might be a house rule. Or just a good idea of yours.


Gilarius wrote:
I've used named bullet on play and its pretty good. Why do you specify 'with EK 10'? You can pre-cast it on your bullet and not have to rely on getting a critical to use the EK capstone.

It's good with EK 10 because you can cast it before battle, and then when you land the guaranteed crit, you get a free swift spell. A great action economy boost.

Also noteworthy imo is 4(or more) levels of myrmidarch magus, possibly with an axe-musket/pistol dagger/sword cane pistol blackblade (which would be immune to breaking, which immensly helps with misfires). Spell slinger 1/Myrmidarch blackblade X can then even go into EK for that capstone for a high level build.


Gilarius wrote:

Avr, you have some good suggestions and some that aren't so useful. I'll address some of the non-wizard spells in the next draft, thanks.

And a few alternative classes, however I'm not familiar with all the possibilities so suggest a few more please.

Burst of Radiance doesn't work through the gun because it's a burst. And I only bothered listing the detect spells at all because they technically work, not because I think they're useful like that.

You could take normal wizard feats and ignore the gun feats, but in that case, you'd be better off not being a spellslinger. Why bother having a gun if you're rubbish with it? Be an elf with a longbow!

You're right about Burst of Radiance, my bad.

About why go spellslinger if you're going to be slinging spells rather than bullets 90% of the time - it's to get a nice healthy +enhancement bonus to save DCs. Longbows don't do that.

I haven't looked at it in detail but it seems to me that any class with nice bonuses to shooting things and a few spells which you can shoot thru the gun (not necessarily a lot) would work. Dawnflower Dervish Bard, maybe an Inquisitor with Reach spell, possibly Myrmidiarch Magus.

If you check the Cantrips feature which the Spellslinger replaces, not having it doesn't seem to prevent learning Mending and then preparing it in a higher level slot.


I suggest a different building path with Spellslinger 1 / sorc 1 / Mysterious Stranger 1 into EK 10, adding spellcaster levels into the sorc.
CHA as a consolidation stat for damage and spells and grit.

Use spellslinger slots for non-scaling spells like shield or true strike, and sorc as a baseline spellcaster.
You are not going to be a powerhouse until late levels, but this way you get to sinergize all your ability being quite good on both shooting and casting thanks to single stat dependance, +5 to DC, and mage bullets substituting the need for deadly aim with free elemental damage alleviating the hitting preassure.

Magical knack (sorc) is a must to restore lost caster levels.


When I get a bit more time (today/tomorrow), I'll try a few more builds.

So far: Dawnflower Dervish Bard & Myrmidarch Magus. I'm not sure Dekalinder's suggestion will work - you lose 3 levels of spellcasting from the sorc, so you'd never get any high level spells (and magical knack won't help with that) yet it still doesn't get the dex bonus to damage - I'll try it, but if I don't like the results I won't put it into the guide.

If you spot anything else you particularly think is good, tell me. Including spells from clerics, druids, etc.


LoneKnave wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
I've used named bullet on play and its pretty good. Why do you specify 'with EK 10'? You can pre-cast it on your bullet and not have to rely on getting a critical to use the EK capstone.

It's good with EK 10 because you can cast it before battle, and then when you land the guaranteed crit, you get a free swift spell. A great action economy boost.

Also noteworthy imo is 4(or more) levels of myrmidarch magus, possibly with an axe-musket/pistol dagger/sword cane pistol blackblade (which would be immune to breaking, which immensly helps with misfires). Spell slinger 1/Myrmidarch blackblade X can then even go into EK for that capstone for a high level build.

OK, I understand now. Yes, it's particularly tasty, and can be got on a wand so you can still have divination as an opposition school.

EK won't help the class abilities of a magus, but I'll try it and see how effective it is.


You sure suck at casting for the first levels, but aside from sleep at first level, that's when the martial shine anyway, and you are sorta one at those levels. Mysterious stranger gives you CHA to damage from level 1, witch is your primary stat, so you don't need dex to damage. And as for strict casting, you need to compare him to a 3/4 caster like the magus, not with a pure caster. After all the build is made to maximize the spell/firepower blending, not to focus on a single one of those.


Gilarius wrote:
avr wrote:
Also Mending is still on the spell list. A spellslinger can prepare it in a first level slot (or two of them if Transmutation is an opposition school). It just doesn't behave as a cantrip with the unlimited uses etc. due to losing the cantrips class feature.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Detect Magic and Read Magic are called out as being available as 1st level spells but no other cantrips are.

I'll check for a general rule, but that might be a house rule. Or just a good idea of yours.

You can always choose to cast a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, and the spellbook and spells features are unchanged, so you still start with all the cantrips in your book (except those from opposition schools); you just have to put them in 1st or higher level slots (since you have no zero level slots, which is what the cantrips feature gives you).


Zhayne wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
avr wrote:
Also Mending is still on the spell list. A spellslinger can prepare it in a first level slot (or two of them if Transmutation is an opposition school). It just doesn't behave as a cantrip with the unlimited uses etc. due to losing the cantrips class feature.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Detect Magic and Read Magic are called out as being available as 1st level spells but no other cantrips are.

I'll check for a general rule, but that might be a house rule. Or just a good idea of yours.

You can always choose to cast a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, and the spellbook and spells features are unchanged, so you still start with all the cantrips in your book (except those from opposition schools); you just have to put them in 1st or higher level slots (since you have no zero level slots, which is what the cantrips feature gives you).

It makes sense for cantrips generally to become 1st level spells, but I can't find any justification within the rules-

In favour of allowing it: being able to use higher level slots, as you said. Plus, they're weaker than 1st level spells, so it's hardly unbalancing.

Against allowing it: the 'specific trumps general' rule. Why do all the archetypes that replace cantrips state 'This ability replaces cantrips, but the siege mage gains the detect magic and read magic cantrips and places them in his spellbook. He can cast either of these as 1st-level spells.'? If there were even one example of an archetype where cantrips generally become 1st level spells, I'd be happier putting it in the guide; since I'd rather be rules-legal in it, it'd have to have a large caveat explaining the position.

I was hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to quote something.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gilarius wrote:
It makes sense for cantrips generally to become 1st level spells, but I can't find any justification within the rules-
Quote:

Spell Slots

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

It is never stated that a Spellslinger has access to a different spell list than an ordinary Wizard. Therefore, he has access to 0-level spells just like any other, he just has no 0-level slots for them.

Therefore, he may prepare them in his higher-level spell slots as normal.


The Morphling wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
It makes sense for cantrips generally to become 1st level spells, but I can't find any justification within the rules-
Quote:

Spell Slots

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

It is never stated that a Spellslinger has access to a different spell list than an ordinary Wizard. Therefore, he has access to 0-level spells just like any other, he just has no 0-level slots for them.

Therefore, he may prepare them in his higher-level spell slots as normal.

Yes, that is the general rule (as mentioned by avr, myself and Zhayne (and known to many more - my apologies if that comes across as slightly irritated); does it trump the specified situation where cantrips are lost? You know, the bit that calls out 2 cantrips (and only those 2) as being available as 1st level spells? It also states that the spellslinger's cantrips are replaced - not just that the slots are lost; it implies that the spells themselves are also no longer on the list.

It's also a minor matter that I'd expect most GMs to be happy about allowing regardless of the actual rule; if they aren't, then there is a fairly cheap Ioun stone that can grant you a cantrip - if your GM will permit it since it merely adds to your list of cantrips...


The cantrips feature just gives you the ability to cast them infinitely out of your zero-level slots. It does not provide you with those cantrips as spells; the unchanged Spellbook feature does.


Zhayne wrote:
The cantrips feature just gives you the ability to cast them infinitely out of your zero-level slots. It does not provide you with those cantrips as spells; the unchanged Spellbook feature does.

I would like this to be true; and it should be. But if it is true, why does the archetype state 'This ability replaces cantrips, but the spellslinger gains the detect magic and read magic cantrips and places them in his spellbook. He can cast either of these as 1st-level spells.'

Emphasis mine. If they are already in his spellbook, why do they need to be added?

I am happy to believe that this is simply an editing error, or a reflection of the lack of thought that went into this (and possibly other?) archetype - see the Mage Bullets ability where almost all the special enhancements don't work - but it would be nice to be sure.


Sorry about the delay, real life has a tendency to get in the way.

I've now added a section on cleric spells - I've probably missed some, and I haven't tried playing a cleric since 3rd ed (not even in 3.5) so if anyone is familiar with anything important about 'Bad Touch Clerics' that is relevant please tell me and I'll include it.

Other builds: I also haven't played a magus yet, but the myrmidach's ranged spellstrike looks very tasty indeed. I think that Spellslinger1/Myrmidach19 might be the best version of this, but again tell me if and why you disagree. Then I'll try building one.
(I wouldn't allow a blackblade to also be a gun, if I were the GM, or if I did allow it, I wouldn't allow the 'unbreakable' effect to work on the gun part.)

I can't see any real benefit from being a Spellslinger1/Dawnflower Dervish Bard. What am I missing? There are a handful of spells that work through the gun, but a dervish is more of a melee archetype which is less useful when paired with a level of wizard...

Spellslinger1/Inquisitor is more of a flavour option, but Dekalinder's idea of Spellslinger1/Mysterious Stranger1/Sorcerer1/EK10/etc is actually viable (to my surprise - sorry Dek for not taking it seriously at first). It swaps my suggested build's extra levels of gunslinger for getting a wider choice of spells from the sorc level instead of the limited 4-opposition-schools selection. Mysterious Stranger can't automatically get Cha to damage (it costs grit), but can do it quite a few times per day since it would be the primary stat. It also relies on getting early entry to EK to get the BAB up for iterative attacks.

Spellslinger Guide


Gilarius wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
The cantrips feature just gives you the ability to cast them infinitely out of your zero-level slots. It does not provide you with those cantrips as spells; the unchanged Spellbook feature does.

I would like this to be true; and it should be. But if it is true, why does the archetype state 'This ability replaces cantrips, but the spellslinger gains the detect magic and read magic cantrips and places them in his spellbook. He can cast either of these as 1st-level spells.'

Emphasis mine. If they are already in his spellbook, why do they need to be added?

I am happy to believe that this is simply an editing error, or a reflection of the lack of thought that went into this (and possibly other?) archetype - see the Mage Bullets ability where almost all the special enhancements don't work - but it would be nice to be sure.

They get added to his spellbook as a class feature, since finding scrolls of cantrips is going to be mighty tricky. Also, don't you need those spells in order to prepare in the morning?

I think it's by design that they get added at first level so that you don't have to hunt down another wizard or a scroll of a cantrip. For all other cantrips I would assume that the rule of preparing a lower level spell in a higher level spell slot would apply. They just don't start with automatic access to those spells.


Because you can always prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot. If you really want an Acid Splash to eat up a 1st level slot, knock yourself out.

Plus, metamagic feats (again, useless, but possible).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Half-elven Bonded Witch with a dip into Spellslinger would be kind of neat. You get back the bonded item feature so you can easily enchant your own gun, which would also be your spellbook.


Gjorbjond wrote:
The Half-elven Bonded Witch with a dip into Spellslinger would be kind of neat. You get back the bonded item feature so you can easily enchant your own gun, which would also be your spellbook.

A witch is a surprisingly good match with spellslinger. Apart from the bonded item you mention, they also get a handful of spells usable through the gun. Harm is 7th level (8th with reach) plus the 'Time' patron grants Disintegrate, and the normal list has Enervation on already.

The only question in my mind is the character concept and whether they would ever want to use a gun instead of a hex in battle?

I shall be adding it as the best option for Spellslinger1/Full caster19, thank you.


Well, you don't add the gun's bonus to hexes for one. They are also usually single target (I don't even know if the witch has any multitarget spells you can fire through the gun, but it's not hard to grab them from other classes lists).

You may also just take the white haired archetype and simply not HAVE hexes (not that it's the best of ideas but it could happen).


LoneKnave wrote:

Well, you don't add the gun's bonus to hexes for one. They are also usually single target (I don't even know if the witch has any multitarget spells you can fire through the gun, but it's not hard to grab them from other classes lists).

You may also just take the white haired archetype and simply not HAVE hexes (not that it's the best of ideas but it could happen).

Witches get cone of cold, lightning bolt, and burning hands by default, as well as enervation etc so they can hurt multiple targets.

My question was really whether someone playing a witch would want to dip a level of spellslinger, since the concept of a witch with a gun is a bit odd, and if they did would they be likely to use the gun (with normal bullets) instead of using a hex?

Witches get less spells per day than wizards, so they need to ration them more.


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Quote:
My question was really whether someone playing a witch would want to dip a level of spellslinger, since the concept of a witch with a gun is a bit odd, and if they did would they be likely to use the gun (with normal bullets) instead of using a hex?

I guess you are right. Gun witch does sound silly when you put it that way.


Gilarius wrote:
I can't see any real benefit from being a Spellslinger1/Dawnflower Dervish Bard. What am I missing? There are a handful of spells that work through the gun, but a dervish is more of a melee archetype which is less useful when paired with a level of wizard...

Doubled Inspire Courage applies to a gun just as well as to a scimitar. Bards get buff spells too and can be effective ranged combatants. Spellslinger is used here for a cheap & effective ranged weapon.

Gilarius wrote:
Spellslinger1/Inquisitor is more of a flavour option,

Again, Inquisitors get buff spells and buffing abilities.


avr wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
I can't see any real benefit from being a Spellslinger1/Dawnflower Dervish Bard. What am I missing? There are a handful of spells that work through the gun, but a dervish is more of a melee archetype which is less useful when paired with a level of wizard...

Doubled Inspire Courage applies to a gun just as well as to a scimitar. Bards get buff spells too and can be effective ranged combatants. Spellslinger is used here for a cheap & effective ranged weapon.

Gilarius wrote:
Spellslinger1/Inquisitor is more of a flavour option,
Again, Inquisitors get buff spells and buffing abilities.

Inquisitor or cleric; or eldritch knight or arcane caster are equivalents. Which you'd choose to play depends mainly on your own preferences, rather than there being any real difference in power. That's what I meant by flavour.

For the dervish, I'd missed the doubled bonus. That would make it reasonable but can a Bard use a Battle Dance while also being able to aim and shoot missile weapons?
Most bards can choose to use a spoken or sung performance, but dervishes must dance.

The buff spells are not really relevant, since all the spellcasters get some and even if bards have more than wizards, they also have fewer useful spells to fire through their gun. The inquisitor gets better abilities to enhance their combat at the expense of having few spells compared to a wizard or witch.


LoneKnave wrote:
Quote:
My question was really whether someone playing a witch would want to dip a level of spellslinger, since the concept of a witch with a gun is a bit odd, and if they did would they be likely to use the gun (with normal bullets) instead of using a hex?
I guess you are right. Gun witch does sound silly when you put it that way.

I like the pic. But yes, it still looks silly. It's the best fit for a full caster mechanically, though.


I've updated my guide and, unless anyone points anything useful out, it's probably finished. The Myrmidach Magus build is still missing, since it could do with someone who knows how magus' work to do it (hint, hint).

Spellslinger Guide


Gonna point out the Arcanist.

Especially with Blade Adept, you could possibly grab an unbreakable blackblade gun (either axe musket, dagger pistol, or sword-cane-pistol should work), still get almost full caster levels, and get a bunch of magus exploits to boot. Blade adept can also get into EK and keep leveling his blackblade, which is an option if you don't mind giving up more caster levels.

Arcanists are also kinda really stupidly good anyway.

EDIT: Actually... how about just plain divine casters? Yeah, the spell selection isn't as great but 3/4th BAB mang, 3/4th BAB! Plus casting in armor. You can also grab a number of nice spells from the domain list possibly. I haven't checked the Shaman, but he has those wandering spirits for a flexible spell-list, right? Might be cool.


LoneKnave wrote:

Gonna point out the Arcanist.

Especially with Blade Adept, you could possibly grab an unbreakable blackblade gun (either axe musket, dagger pistol, or sword-cane-pistol should work), still get almost full caster levels, and get a bunch of magus exploits to boot. Blade adept can also get into EK and keep leveling his blackblade, which is an option if you don't mind giving up more caster levels.

Arcanists are also kinda really stupidly good anyway.

EDIT: Actually... how about just plain divine casters? Yeah, the spell selection isn't as great but 3/4th BAB mang, 3/4th BAB! Plus casting in armor. You can also grab a number of nice spells from the domain list possibly. I haven't checked the Shaman, but he has those wandering spirits for a flexible spell-list, right? Might be cool.

Plain divine casters (Cleric/oracle) only have one decent spell that works through the gun - Harm (with Reach).

As and when I get the ACG I might update the guide. Without it, it's kinda hard to do...


Well, Heavens oracle with a rainbow gun sounds like mad fun.

Also, kinda BS. I mean, lower the enemies levels and then boost the DC on top of that? EVERYTHING IS DAZED.

Could grab scorched curse on top of that to add some damage to the equation.


LoneKnave wrote:

Well, Heavens oracle with a rainbow gun sounds like mad fun.

Also, kinda BS. I mean, lower the enemies levels and then boost the DC on top of that? EVERYTHING IS DAZED.

Could grab scorched curse on top of that to add some damage to the equation.

I'm not following you here. What do you mean by a) a Rainbow Gun?; and b) lower enemies levels?

If you are referring to their revelation that reduces enemies HD with regards to pattern spell effects, then that does not affect their saving throw, merely the results if they fail. A spellslinger's gun could make Colour Spray harder to resist, yes, but that's true for a wizard too. And by the time colour spray is no longer useful when cast by a wizard, then he gets eg Pellet Blast or Lightning Bolt to use instead.


I meant Rainbow gun because it shoots color spray. And later prismatic something.

The point is that Heaven's oracle gets to keep using color spray because he keeps lowering the levels with his CHA, and with a spellslinger dip, also keeps upping the DC. And he's still using lvl1 slots. Or can quicken them, and it'd be waaaay worth it.

He's also going to be a ridiculously good short-ranged damage dealer, once he gets Bestow Grace of Champions with double barrel guns.


The Siege Gunner Archetype is worth including for Gunslinger/Spellslinger builds.

You get Grit from Int (so you can dump Wis), in return for 1 AC, your Initiative bonus, and Deadeye. (You also get some bonuses for using Siege weapons and, more interestingly, handguns with the 'spread' property like Dragon's Breath Pistols. Spending 1 Grit for +5 damage isn't the worst trade in the world with 5 levels in Gunslinger.


Gilarius wrote:
Plain divine casters (Cleric/oracle) only have one decent spell that works through the gun - Harm (with Reach).

I've noticed you seem to undervalue debuffs, or overvalue HP damage, I'm not sure which.

Bestow Curse w/reach is a valid use of an action. Plane Shift w/reach. Admonishing Ray and Blinding Ray (if you're a dhampir) work thru the gun without the Reach spell feat.

Many Oracle mysteries get one or more extra spells which'd work. Lunar Oracles can give inflict wounds spells a confusion rider which (with Reach Spell again) makes them worthwhile. Even so I admit I probably wouldn't use an Oracle Spellslinger. Spontaneous casting is slow enough to be annoying without adding a lost caster level and likely Reach Spell on top of that.

Druids can throw a variety of spells around which work with Spellslinger. Heatstroke, Tar Ball, Spit Venom and River of Wind spring to mind. That is a character I'd play.


Very interesting guide, i am reading it now and i will post things as i do.

How are you casting the spell when you have in one hand a rod of reach and in the other your firearm?

Diamond spray is a 3.5 spell.

I must be missing something here, why is enervation such a good spell for a gunslinger? because you have a little better chance to hit?

You can't cast Abundant Ammunition on a container with +1 keen bullets, you can cast Abundant Ammunition on a container with nonmagical bullets and then cast Keen Edge.

About improved prisice shot, the feat only helps you against the 20% miss chance but not against 50% concealment (the seeking property helps you with that), the feat doesn't help you against mirror image (the seeking special ability does), the feat helps you with the +4AC granted by cover or soft cover but since you will most likely target touch AC i don't think that it would be such a big boon. I know that this is what you suggest, i just thought it would be better if it was explained a bit more.

What does the Endless Bandolier help you other than weight issues?


LoneKnave wrote:

I meant Rainbow gun because it shoots color spray. And later prismatic something.

The point is that Heaven's oracle gets to keep using color spray because he keeps lowering the levels with his CHA, and with a spellslinger dip, also keeps upping the DC. And he's still using lvl1 slots. Or can quicken them, and it'd be waaaay worth it.

He's also going to be a ridiculously good short-ranged damage dealer, once he gets Bestow Grace of Champions with double barrel guns.

Thanks, I'll have a look through the oracle mysteries (I haven't yet played one, although I've seen them in play) and add some notes to the guide.


LessPopMoreFizz wrote:

The Siege Gunner Archetype is worth including for Gunslinger/Spellslinger builds.

You get Grit from Int (so you can dump Wis), in return for 1 AC, your Initiative bonus, and Deadeye. (You also get some bonuses for using Siege weapons and, more interestingly, handguns with the 'spread' property like Dragon's Breath Pistols. Spending 1 Grit for +5 damage isn't the worst trade in the world with 5 levels in Gunslinger.

This is something I missed: the seige gunner archetype is generally weak, but using Int for grit might make up for 'losing' a feat (you have to take the first seige weapon feat instead of a combat bonus feat at 4th level). You'd lose out on 'Up Close & Deadly'...anyway, it needs adding to the guide.

Thanks.


avr wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Plain divine casters (Cleric/oracle) only have one decent spell that works through the gun - Harm (with Reach).

I've noticed you seem to undervalue debuffs, or overvalue HP damage, I'm not sure which.

Bestow Curse w/reach is a valid use of an action. Plane Shift w/reach. Admonishing Ray and Blinding Ray (if you're a dhampir) work thru the gun without the Reach spell feat.

Many Oracle mysteries get one or more extra spells which'd work. Lunar Oracles can give inflict wounds spells a confusion rider which (with Reach Spell again) makes them worthwhile. Even so I admit I probably wouldn't use an Oracle Spellslinger. Spontaneous casting is slow enough to be annoying without adding a lost caster level and likely Reach Spell on top of that.

Druids can throw a variety of spells around which work with Spellslinger. Heatstroke, Tar Ball, Spit Venom and River of Wind spring to mind. That is a character I'd play.

You might be right about the debuffs vs damage, Bestow Curse is a good spell. I hadn't considered Plane Shift as an offensive spell, but Admonishing Ray is in already.

LoneKnave has made some points about oracles too so I'd better look at them some more.
Heatstroke is in, as a wizard spell, where it is slightly overshadowed by Lightning Bolt simply because that affects more targets. I completely forgot to look at druids! Yet another thing to add...


leo1925 wrote:

Very interesting guide, i am reading it now and i will post things as i do.

How are you casting the spell when you have in one hand a rod of reach and in the other your firearm?

There are two ways, and I'd better put this explanation in the guide: 1) you can cast a spell through a two-handed firearm, although this isn't explained in the archetype's description, therefore the hand holding the firearm must count as a 'free hand to cast with'; 2) if the GM doesn't like that and therefore rules musket-based spellslingers as illegal, then be a tiefling with a prehensile tail to hold the rod. Incidentally, I mostly favour a Rod of Dazing, not Reach. Reach isn't too expensive to have as a feat in terms of slots, plus a wizard-based Spellslinger generally has useful spells that don't need reach.

leo1925 wrote:

Diamond spray is a 3.5 spell.

I must be missing something here, why is enervation such a good spell for a gunslinger? because you have a little better chance to hit?

Diamond Spray isn't a spell I've used myself - it seems a bit too good, apart from it's area of effect. I simply found it listed on the d20pfsrd website and included it. When did the Pathfinder APs change over to actual Pathfinder? This was from number 24, in 2009, according to the webpage.

Enervation is a very good spell since there is no save. A Spellslinger will hit a lot more often than a normal wizard since he's likely to have a better BAB, Dex, and the gun's enhancements.

leo1925 wrote:
You can't cast Abundant Ammunition on a container with +1 keen bullets, you can cast Abundant Ammunition on a container with nonmagical bullets and then cast Keen Edge.

Good catch. I need to add that. Ta.

leo1925 wrote:


About improved prisice shot, the feat only helps you against the 20% miss chance but not against 50% concealment (the seeking property helps you with that), the feat doesn't help you against mirror image (the seeking special ability does), the feat helps you with the +4AC granted by cover or soft cover but since you will most likely target touch AC i don't think that it would be such a big boon. I know that this is what you suggest, i just thought it would be better if it was explained a bit more.

Also a good idea.

leo1925 wrote:
What does the Endless Bandolier help you other than weight issues?

Storage of multiple weapons, keeping different types of ammunition easily accessible, powder, etc. You might be able to use it to store rods of metamagic, but an Efficient Quiver is still better. Many Spellslingers are going to lack strength and the Endless Bandolier is cheap and doesn't occupy an important slot. A double-barrelled musket is 11 lbs and pistols are 4-6 lbs. You're likely to want at least two guns, plus the firearm gear, plus possibly a chain shirt to start with, plus normal adventuring gear. Wizards can become overloaded quite easily without trying to lug heavy guns around. Plus it's one of the few magical items designed for gunslingers which are actually useful.

A Handy Haversack is better (and 500gp more expensive), but I'd have both.


The first AP to use the PF ruleset was the coucil of thieves, that means AP#25.

Yes i am starting to believe that the archetype is meant to consider the hand holding the firearm a free hand (like arcane duelist bard does) for casting, sure it isn't mentioned anywhere in the archetype but then again it's a poorly worded archetype that wasn't touched in the errata (like a lot of things that should in the UC errata).


This is pretty invalid until the actual one comes out..

But.

Spellslinger dip seems very nice for a vigilante Warlock. I've only looked at it via the playtest. but they can make use of the few spells better via this, and a gun is a good choice for them since they're weirdly martialy with a splash of magic.

Once that book (and occult) comes out might be good to eyeball

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