With the exception of the Archer-Fighter Archetype which explicitly gives the Fighter the ability to make a variety of combat maneuvers with his bow, is there actually anything in the rolls that says you can't make a combat maneuver with a ranged weapon?
I've tried looking around the rules myself, but I can't find anything that explicitly states you can't use a ranged weapon, like a bow or throwing axe for combat maneuvers. Now, the only weapons that it would even be possible with, is Disarm, Trip and Sunder, as they are the only maneuvers that can normally be used in conjunction with a weapon.
Disarm, Trip and Sunder however, all explicitly states they are used in place of a melee attack. So these maneuvers are all out of the question. Normally, this means you can't make any combat maneuvers with a bow.
However! The reason why I ask this question is because of Stand Still and Snap Shot.
The Snap Shot feats (Snap Shot + Improved Snap Shot) allows the bow user to threaten up to 15 ft around him. Stand Still allows you to make a combat maneuver in place of an attack of opportunity to prevent a creature from moving through your threatened squares.
So, if a bow user could make combat maneuvers, he could use Snap Shot + Stand Still to control his threatened area.
This brings me back to my question: Is there a rule that says you can't make combat maneuver checks with a ranged weapon?
Stand Still explicitly says "adjacent squares", not "threatened squares", so if your combination works at all, it only works in adjacent squares.
Stand Still explicitly says "adjacent squares", not "threatened squares", so if your combination works at all, it only works in adjacent squares.
Good point, so RAW it would still work with Snap Shot. (My group uses Stand Still ass applying to all threatened squares, so a little house rule for us).
Closest I can find to the rules saying combat maneuvers (that can be taken in place of attacks) require a melee attack is in the Combat chapter of the CRB:
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.
Emphasis mine.
I wouldn't call this definitive by a longshot, and would allow it at my table.
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The maneuvers themselves actually make it pretty definitive. Of the 'big' ones, only Grapple and Overrun do not specifically call out using a melee attack...but the description of the maneuvers are strong enough to avoid confusion.
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Of course, there are exceptions such as the bola which can be used to trip at range.
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Bull Rush: You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack...
Disarm: You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack...
Grapple: As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe...
Overrun: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square...
Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack...
Trip: You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack....
A GM that allows Combat Maneuvers to classes other than the Archer-Fighter Archetype is being quite generous. Now, there is nothing wrong with a GM doing that, but it would be homebrew.
The maneuvers themselves actually make it pretty definitive. Of the 'big' ones, only Grapple and Overrun do not specifically call out using a melee attack...but the description of the maneuvers are strong enough to avoid confusion.
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Of course, there are exceptions such as the bola which can be used to trip at range.
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Bull Rush: You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack...Disarm: You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack...
Grapple: As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe...
Overrun: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square...
Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack...
Trip: You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack....
A GM that allows Combat Maneuvers to classes other than the Archer-Fighter Archetype is being quite generous. Now, there is nothing wrong with a GM doing that, but it would be homebrew.
The thing is, you have the general combat maneuvers rules, then you have the specific maneuvers themselves that alter how the general rules work.
So in the general rules for combat maneuvers, there doesn't seem to be anything that specifically limits ranged weapons from making maneuvers. The specific maneuvers themselves, like disarm, trip, sunder etc. limits those manevuers to only being used during a melee attack without another exemption.
The CMB check for Stand Still just uses the general CMB rules, which is why I asked. However, Honorable Goblins post, I think, kills the idea as it mentions in place of a melee attack for attacks of opportunity. Since the Stand Still mechanic is an attack of opportunity, I would have to go so far as to only allow Stand Still to function with melee weapons, per RAW.
It's a shame, but it's probably something I'd allow regardless. Honestly, I really don't see any issue with ranged weapons for disarm, sunder, or trip because it does happen a lot in many media. Shooting a sword out of someones hand, or maybe in the leg to trip them, or sundering a rope used to hang someone etc.
@RedDogMT I should have been more clear in my post. Obviously the descriptions of specific combat maneuvers like bullrush and disarm explicitly state that they are melee attacks. I meant that I'd allow the Snap Shot + Stand Still combo since the rule I quoted was written prior to a means of threatening/making an AoO with a ranged weapon (as far as I'm aware anyway), EDIT: and the need to make a combat maneuver check is not always confined to those listed in the combat chapter (for example, Stand Still, and I'm sure there are others I'm unaware of).
If you're flooking for a few manuvers there are trip and grappling arrows (and bolt equivalents).
If you're flooking for a few manuvers there are trip and grappling arrows (and bolt equivalents).
No, I was looking to be able to use Snap Shot feats and the Stand Still feat to be able to 'control' my area by preventing people from moving past. Kind of like shooting at someones foot to stop them from moving, or nailing their cloak to the earth etc. I just thought it would be a fun and thematic little combination.
Hiya.
No, I was looking to be able to use Snap Shot feats and the Stand Still feat to be able to 'control' my area by preventing people from moving past. Kind of like shooting at someones foot to stop them from moving, or nailing their cloak to the earth etc. I just thought it would be a fun and thematic little combination.
Uh...ask your DM? The rules, ALL OF THEM, are the baseline from which all DM adjudications are made. The rules are the _baseline_, they are not the _end-result_. If your DM thinks that's cool, yay you! If your DM think's it's cheese...well, there you go. If you're trying to get some rule to point to and say "Nuh-uhh! See! Rules says yes!", you could be in for a rude awakening (hint: the DM is always right...even when he goes directly against the rules!).
Personally? If I was your DM I'd just make up a new Feat and call it "Trick Shot: Pin Foe's Movement". Then toss on some requirements and write it out describing it's use for "pinning" an opponent to some surface (as per your description). So, once again, talk to your DM. :)
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Hiya.
No, I was looking to be able to use Snap Shot feats and the Stand Still feat to be able to 'control' my area by preventing people from moving past. Kind of like shooting at someones foot to stop them from moving, or nailing their cloak to the earth etc. I just thought it would be a fun and thematic little combination.Uh...ask your DM? The rules, ALL OF THEM, are the baseline from which all DM adjudications are made. The rules are the _baseline_, they are not the _end-result_. If your DM thinks that's cool, yay you! If your DM think's it's cheese...well, there you go. If you're trying to get some rule to point to and say "Nuh-uhh! See! Rules says yes!", you could be in for a rude awakening (hint: the DM is always right...even when he goes directly against the rules!).
Personally? If I was your DM I'd just make up a new Feat and call it "Trick Shot: Pin Foe's Movement". Then toss on some requirements and write it out describing it's use for "pinning" an opponent to some surface (as per your description). So, once again, talk to your DM. :)
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Well, I'm the GM, but my GMs tend to turn to me for rules clarifications any way. The idea popped into my mind as I was helping a friend build an Inquisitor Archer and I wondered if it was technically legal or not. I didn't find anything definitive myself, so I asked the forums.
Even still, the only thing stopping it is kind of shaky as it is. Personally, in my home games I'd absolutely allow ranged combat maneuvers with weapons. I'd probably have them very difficult (-5 penalty or more). To not obviate the Archer-Fighter ability, they would gain no penalty to the shot, and may even gain a bonus.
I just think that shooting a weapon out of someones hand with a bow, or shooting a hanging rope, or pining a cloak to the a wall is way to thematic and iconic for an archer to be restricted to the archer-fighter class.