The Aegis archetype Warhulk trades some abilities for a slam attack that deals 1d8 damage. I am trying to make that single slam attack hurt something fierce.
Question: At 6th the Warhulk gains the ability Devastating Smash, which increases the damage to 2d8. Is this a flat increase of base damage, allowing the extra d8 to be factored into vital strike & critical hits, or is it a additional damage to be added after?
For right now, I will pretend the extra d8 is extra damage added after the appropriate feats.
The attack is a single natural weapon. Would it gain strength-and-half damage? A heavy punch doesn't make me think 1.5 x strength damage.
Improved Natural Weapon increases the natural attack as if the creature was one size bigger; from d8 to 2d6
Strong Jaw increases the natural attack as if the creature was two sizes bigger; from 2d6 to 2d8 to 4d6. There is a question of Strong Jaw stacking with Improved Natural Attack
The boon "Strong Arm" (gained by the Celestial Obedience of Falayna)allows you to "...increase the damage die of your weapon by one step for a number of rounds...". Not sure if this would apply to natural weapons like a slam. If it does apply, the damage would be doubled, judging by what is said in the Strong Jaw description. That would make the unarmed slam deal 8d6 damage.
Vital strike chain would make this damage even more ugly: Vital strike (16d6), Improved Vital Strike (24d6), and Greater Vital Strike (32d6).
More damage is possible, if gaining size increases stack with Improved Natural Attack and Strong Jaw. I am pretty sure Improved Natural Attack does stack, but I'm not sure about Strong Jaw.
Okay, that is a lot of damage for a single hit per round, not taking into account strength and such. I am pretty sure Vampiric Blade doesn't apply to this, because is states words to the effect of "as long as the weapon stays in you grip", which a slam attack isn't held.
Am I getting anything wrong here?
Nope, everything looks fine.
However, I would say that your boon does not stack with strong jaw, as they are both effective size increases that originate from magical sources and thus would not stack.
You can get an effective 5 size increase prior to vital strike by RAW: Improved Natural Attack(1), Strong Jaw(2), and Improved Increased Size (6 customizatiton points, 15th level required).
No, neither vampiric blade, nor claws of the vampire will apply to slam attacks. The first because it applies to manufactured weapons only, and the second because it applies to claws only (by RAW).
Okay, so this is what I got from that:
d8 Base
2d6 Improved Natural Weapon
4d6 Strong Jaw
8d6 Large
16d6 Huge
32d6 Vital Strike
62d6 Improved Vital Strike
124d6 Greater Vital strike
See Strong Jaw for where the doubling of dice due to size increases beyond Colossal.
Average for d6 is 3.5 (so I am told), so...
Avg Dice Name
4.4 d8 Base
7 2d6 Improved Natural Weapon
14 4d6 Strong Jaw
28 8d6 Large
56 16d6 Huge
112 32d6 Vital Strike
224 62d6 Improved Vital Strike
434 124d6 Greater Vital strike
Not counting strength, extra dice from War Hulk, etc.
Improved Natural Attack requires a BAB of +4, so 5th level
Strong Jaw is a 4th level spell, and requires a 7th level Druid.
Increased Size is a 2 point customization, and requires 9th level.
Improved Increased Size is a 4 point customization, and requires 15th level.
Vital Strike requires BAB +6
Improved Vital Strike requires BAB +11
Greater Vital Strike requires BAB +16
So...
1st d8 base
4th 2d6 Improved Natural Attack
6th 4d6 Vital Strike
7th 8d6 Strong Jaw
9th 16d6 Increase Size (Large)
11th 32d6 Improved Vital Strike
15th 64d6 Improved Increase Size (Huge)
16th 124d6 Greater Vital Strike
Just read the archetype.
The slam is a primary natural attack that uses str*1.5 as long as you dont attack with anything else. Slams arrn't punches, they're shoulder checks/two handed beat downs/tackles.
At 6th it says the damge increases to 2d8, so that should mean you should treat it as a 2d8 weapon when upping it, not a 1d8 weapon. The boon, strong jaw, and imp nat attack do stack.
It would be a lot of effort to explain with phone keyboard, but your math is wrong. You're using too many dice.
The slam progression is: 1d8, 2d6, 2d8, etc.
Following this pattern and starting at large (powerful build is a prereq), you have large, huge, gargantuan, collosal; which is 4 steps. The 5th step is a doubling of the damage according to RAW.
Thus,
1d8 Base @ Large
2d6 Improved Natural Attack (@ Huge)
2d8 (Increased Size (1)) (@ Garg)
4d6 (Increased Size (2)) (@ Col)
8d6 (Strong jaw (1)) (@ + 1 Size above Col)
16d6 (Strong jaw (2)) (@ + 2 Sizes above Col) -- This is your base damage prior to applying vital strike.
Vital Strike would put the damage at 32d6 (x2 base damage), Improved would be 48d6 (x3 base damage), Greater Vital Strike would put it at 64d6 (x4 base damage).
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Yup. Gonna need a dice app.
64d6
Yup. Gonna need a dice app.
Been Playing Champions/Hero almost as long as DD&D/Pathfinder. 64d6 are easy to come by... a little longer to count though. :D
Counting the steps:
+1 Improved Natural Attack
+1 Becoming Large
+1 Becoming Huge
+2 Strong Jaw
...so, yeah, five steps....don't know quite how I put an extra size increase there. Still, 64d6 is enough.
The increases from Devastating Smash increases from 1d8 to 2d8 11th and 3d8 at 16th level. There isn't a 3d8 on the chart. So, it is one of the following:
As the second and third results are just way too silly, I will say the increases are a flat, unaltered bonuses.
Edit: I have told my players the general rule for rounding is: "round in favor of the bad guys, which is usually means round up for bad guys, and round down for heroes." The bad guys are going to be killed at the end of the encounter; let's give them this little bonus
The general rule for when you go outside of what's available in the table is that you double the amount of damage you deal every two steps. So increasing from 2d8 follows this progression:
2d8 + Improved Natural Attack ->
3d8 + Large ->
4d8 + Huge ->
6d8 + Strong Jaw -> 8d8 (2 steps) ->
Total of 12d8
Vital Strike = 24d8
Improved Vital Strike = 36d8
Greater Vital Strike = 48d8
Starting from 1d8:
1d8 + Improved Natural Attack ->
2d6 + Large ->
3d6 + Huge ->
4d6 + Strong Jaw -> 6d6 (2 steps) ->
Total of 8d6
Vital Strike = 16d6
Improved Vital Strike = 24d6
Greater Vital Strike = 32d6
I believe that by RAW, any steps above Colossal is a doubling of the damage.
Now, I don't have that as a hard reference, but I remember seeing it somewhere.
Edit: It's in the strong jaw text.
I see an error in my chart... corrected below:
1d8 Base @ Large
2d6 Improved Natural Attack (@ Huge)
2d8 (Increased Size (1)) (@ Garg)
4d6 (Increased Size (2)) (@ Col)
8d6 (Strong jaw (2)) * since you are at colossal when applying strong jaw, you double the damage dice. -- This is your base damage prior to applying vital strike.
Vital Strike would put the damage at 16d6 (x2 base damage), Improved would be 24d6 (x3 base damage), Greater Vital Strike would put it at 32d6 (x4 base damage).
I believe that by RAW, any steps above Colossal is a doubling of the damage.
Now, I don't have that as a hard reference, but I remember seeing it somewhere.
You're thinking of the spell strong jaw, which doubles the damage of a natural weapon if used on a Gargantuan or Colossal creature. It normally increases the damage of a natural weapon by two steps, which is the same thing if the target weapon deals 2d6 or more damage.
Aratok: Yeah, I saw my mistake after I remembered the rule.
Gator - Vital Strike chain does not double the damage at every instance.
Oh fer &$#@'s sake. I need to stop posting when I'm tired. Yer right. I have no idea where my ability to do simple math went.
Okay, so it tops out at 32d6. That is reasonable. Cool. Thanks guys/gals/angry gods and monsters!