Method to calculate CR for individual creatures?

[CAHaugen]

I know there is a table that exists for encounters, but when dealing with a single homebrew creature, is there a method to figure out what it's CR should be, along with it's XP?

What I mean is, where is the line between something with a CR +7 and a CR +8? At what point does adding a few more to Strength suddenly drive it up a whole "Level"?

I'm looking at using ARG's Race Builder to create a type of Giant that I'd like to make flexible enough for either a PC or an NPC.

The issue I'm stuck at is that I can't for the life of me figure out it's CR. So far I haven't worked out the full stats for the creature; Only it's qualities and traits as a playable race. Once that's finished, I can adapt it with proper Feats / Ability Scores for a particular Level.

Which raises a question, is CR directly related to your ECL? What I mean is, should someone with an ECL of 10 be expected to fight things with a CR of 10? Is the "CR" essentially the "ECL" for NPCs?

Because if not, I have no idea how to factor it. If I wanted, for example, to scale up a monster by four or five levels, adding in new Feats, raising it's Skills and HP, and possibly adding a point or two to it's Ability Scores, how does this effect the CR?

I suppose you'll want to know what my Race's layout is, right? It's not a finished product, and I'm considering taking things out, so just bare with me on it for now.

I wanted to build something around Charging. Minotaur's work well, but I felt limited. So I took their general concept, and mixed it with an Ogre. Essentially Rankor are lumbering violent brutes who cover themselves in animal hides and mud to protect themselves from the harsh winds of their environment. They have large horns which they use to make very deadly charges. Often, in combat, they will bellow out a tremendous howl and sling fair-sized boulders at their opponents to try and drive them into narrow spaces or bluffs. Once their opponents are trapped, they charge in at full speed at their now-shaken foe. Typically Rankor merely ware Hide Armor, so it offers little true protection. Their general weapon of choice is either boulders or their gore, however they also carry mauls or axes. About 99% of them are Barbarians, while their Chieftains are always Druids (They are very attached to and protective of their lands).

Rankor; RP 14

“A distant howl thunders across the open jagged terrain. What seems like an earthquake suddenly trembles the ground. High above the horizon you notice a boulder hurled with great velocity, and just under it a giant brute charging with horns lowered at you.”

Type: Humanoid (Giant): +1 RP

Spoiler:

Giant is actually not listed, but since Giants get Low-Light Vision, which is a cost of +1, I decided to go with that.

Size: Large: +7 RP

Spoiler:

+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -1 AC, -1 Attack, +1 CMC, -4 Stealth

Movement: Slow Speed: -1

Spoiler:

Base Speed is 20' instead of 30'. I know this seems odd, since he's Large and all. I'm willing to drop this and take normal Speed for 0. The reason I did this was because I intended for it to play as a Barbarian, so the Fast Movement would sort of smooth this out, essentially dropping the RP by -1 without actually impacting it state-wise.

Ability Score Modifiers: Mixed Weakness: -2 RP

Spoiler:

+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence

Language: Standard: 0 RP

Spoiler:

Giant. Can choose from Common, Dwarven, and Orcish for Bonus Languages.

Racial Traits: Defensive Racial Traits: Fearless: +1 RP

Spoiler:

+2 Racial against Fear Effects. Willing to drop. Just adds flavor.

Monstrous Racial Traits: Standard Traits: Mountaineer: +1 RP

Spoiler:

Immunity to Altitude Sickness, and you retain your Dex AC when making a Climb or Acrobatic Check to cross narrow or slippery surfaces. Rankor live and thrive in mountains, so this is very essential.

Monstrous Racial Traits: Standard Traits: Terrain Stride: +1 RP

Spoiler:

Rankor treat Mountain (And Hills) as Favored Terrain. Therefore unless magically altered, you never take penalties when moving through it. Essential, since many traps and difficulties can exist within jagged mountains.

Offensive Racial Traits: Standard Traits: Terrifying Croak (Howl): +2 RP

Spoiler:

You can bellow out a loud noise to force opponents of your type (So Humanoid) to become Shaken for 1d4 Rounds. Again, simply flavor but I rather love the idea of a huge brute howling at you just before a deadly charge.

Offensive Racial Traits: Advanced Traits: Natural Attack (Gore): +1 RP

Spoiler:

Rankor gain Gore, which is 1d8 / x2 for being Large. Because it is both their Primary and only Natural Attack, it deals +x1.5 Strength Modifier.

Offensive Racial Traits: Monstrous Traits: Powerful Charge: +2 RP

Spoiler:

When making a Charge, your Gore deals x2 Damage Dice; 2d8. I recognize this is a Feat and I could merely take it later on. As I said, it's a work in progress.

Offensive Racial Traits: Monstrous Traits: Rock Throwing: +3 RP

Spoiler:

Hurl a boulder for 2d6 damage with +x1.5 Strength Modifier. Again, entirely for flavor. Just imagine that you're party is making their way toward a cave when a Surprise Round initiates as a volley of boulders slams down on you. Some of you make a Reflex Save, some don't. Now that you've rolled Initiative, that distinct howl rips through the air, forcing a few of you to become Shaken as a Rankor charges at you. It's just purely iconic. All monsters have their "special" way of fighting. So again, flavor but I'm very attached to it.

Senses Racial Traits: Advanced Traits: Light Blindness: -2 RP

Spoiler:

So when exposed to a sudden bright flash of light, such as exiting a cave in the day or the lighting of a torch, the Rankor are Blind for one Round and all subsequent Rounds that they arewithin the light, they are Dazzled. Felt this was a strong disadvantage to give them to shift the tides of battle, as well as a method of lowering it's overall RP.

So, to recap the Rankor are Large Giants who howl, hurl boulders, and charge. They live in mountainous environments, sudden bright lights blind them, and they are fairly strong (+6 Strength), with poor mobility (-4 Dexterity), and decent communication (+2 Charisma; For Intimidate).

Going off of just this, without Feats / Levels / Ability Scores, what would a fair baseline CR be for it?

I'm to use to 3.0 / 3.5 with the Level Adjustment system. I moved to Pathfinder because it's more flexible, so I'm still figuring out this Challenge Rating system.

In my experience, I've seen similar things be LA +1 or LA +2, depending on it's full stats. Does this equate to a CR +1 or a CR +2?

Having actually rolled for it's stats (Because I'm awesome like that), and after it's Racial and Size Modifiers, they came out to be:

Strength: +22
Dexterity: +09
Constitution: +17
Intelligence: +07
Wisdom: +10
Charisma +18

[Mike J]

I've found that the best measure of CR is to use the chart in the appendix of each Bestiary - the one that has columns for Hit Points, Armor Class, High Attack, Low Attack, Average Damage (High and Low), Primary Ability DC, Secondary Ability DC, Good Save and Poor Save. Very few monsters fit every column for their CR, but there is a fairly obvious "best fit" row for just about any monster. You'll have to consider the monster's role when considering what's important. For example, a combat brute would best be measured by attack and damage, while an ability or spell-based monsters would best be measured by DCs.

You should probably check out the section in the Bestiary on Advancing Monsters, as it covers how templates, class levels and other things adjust a creature's CR.

For how class levels adjust CR, see 397 and 398 of the Core Rulebook.

Keep in mind that CR is not an exact science and is more of a general guideline.

[Deadmanwalking]

The chart in question is found here.

However, that's basically useless for PC races.

Characters of standard PC races are of a CR equal to their level -1. So a 10th level Fighter is CR 9. Giving them PC wealth ups that by +1 CR.

A good baseline for races giving +1 LA is the Advanced Simple Template, which gives a +2 NA bonus, and +4 to all stats on top of standard racial modifiers. If the race is less good than that, all advantages included it's probably not worth a level or CR adjustment.

By the official Race Builder rules (which are terribly unbalanced, BTW, but probably more or less accurate on this one), 14 RP makes the race advanced, and a perfectly reasonable PC race with no level adjustment. 20+ RP makes for a monstrous race, which is +1 level adjustment or more by those rules.

[CAHaugen]

Mike J wrote:

You should probably check out the section in the Bestiary on Advancing Monsters, as it covers how templates, class levels and other things adjust a creature's CR.

For how class levels adjust CR, see 397 and 398 of the Core Rulebook.

Keep in mind that CR is not an exact science and is more of a general guideline.

Thanks, that's some great advice.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The chart in question is found here.

However, that's basically useless for PC races. ... (which are terribly unbalanced, BTW, but probably more or less accurate on this one), 14 RP makes the race advanced, and a perfectly reasonable PC race with no level adjustment.

Thank you. As I said, I'm freshly new to Pathfinder and enjoying it far more. I know there have been similar building tables for "balanced" Classes, though those are seriously out of balance. An "average" Class is something like 215 Class Points; 3.5 Class Builder. It really sucks because if you wanted to build a typical "Fighter" with a minimum d8 HD (Which no "Fighter" should have such a low HD, in my opinion), it costs:

• 20 CP for d8
• 10 CP for Simple Weapons
• 15 CP for Martial Weapons
• 10 CP for Light Armor
• 15 CP for Medium Armor
• 20 CP for Heavy Armor

So just that basic spread, you've already spent 90 CP. Almost half, just to get him to use normal gear that anyone can wield.

Glad to know Pathfinder, while clunky, is a bit more smoothed out.

[Pupsocket]

CAHaugen wrote:

Thank you. As I said, I'm freshly new to Pathfinder and enjoying it far more. I know there have been similar building tables for "balanced" Classes, though those are seriously out of balance. An "average" Class is something like 215 Class Points;

That's hilariously bad. An animal companion costs the same as a single bonus feat. You can frontload a class to get 25 feats at first level, then multiclass out of it.