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Could someone educate me as to why Mystic Theurge prestige class is worth the hype? What are the benefits of this class, drawbacks and examples of mechanically solid builds?
Information much appreciated.
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You’re asking for a lot to be given to you so that you can understand other people's game choices.
Is it worth the hype?
It depends on why you want to go Theurge, they get a butt ton of spells. Some people like having a butt ton of spells. Some people don't mind having lower level spells when they have a butt ton of spells.
What are the benefits?
A butt ton of spells and unprecedented flexibility and versatility. If a character is taking spells off of both a divine caster list and arcane caster list they have access to a great number of spells and hence get more options.
Draw Back?
slower spell progression, really having to know the rules in order to get the most out of the class, and possibly(depending on what the player is looking for) some jankie stuff involving aasimars and having to take certain domains in order to mitigate loss in spell level.
Mechanically solid builds?
Really??? Like for real? Because there must be half a dozen or more threads on the forums that specifically offer up a number of solid and powerful builds. All you must do to discover these threads is use the search function.
As far as real life hands on, I play with a guy in my local PFS chapter who regular takes something that people say is inferior and proves people wrong. He has the only effect blaster type wizard I have seen, he can drop a ridiculous amount of damage in a round and nearly always goes first. This same guy has a Mystic Theurge who works on a similar principle but also has some nice things in his back pocket that aren't fireballs. He can also make stuff do half holy damage which is a nice trick to have when monsters have some good resistances.
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I don't really think there is much hype. Despite the fact that some people on this forum (myself included) like the idea of playing a MT, it is generally considered a suboptimal build choice. The primary reason MT is weak is that you have to spend several levels splitting classes, losing out on class features other than spells (which all classes have a lot more of in PF than they did in 3.5), and getting your spells later than a single classed caster.
One thing that helps if you do want to go this route is based on errata that says you can use spell-like abilities to qualify for prestige classes. The most common choice for this seems to be an aasimar with an alternate SLA (as daylight is a 3rd level spell, and thus doesn't meet the 2nd level spell requirement). You then take 3 levels in either wizard or cleric (or whatever your base classes will be), take one in the other, and you've qualified by level 5.
If you are at a home game rather than organized play a MT can be more (or way less) appealing. If you start at mid levels the class can hold its own. You can also run by your GM the possibility of qualify for the class one level before you get 2nd level spells, i.e. wizard2/cleric2 istead of 3 each. This worked especially well for me in my old group where we started at level 5 and never seemed to make it past 10. Though that group had other issues.
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Thanks for the information, regardless of the fashion some of it was delivered. :) I was thinking of creating a party buffer. The character would sit back and slap on buff after buff after buff on the party and would fill the role of a utility infielder. Although, I'm thinking bard may be a better route to go for this.
(Btw, what is this "search function" mswbear alluded to? These modern ways confuse and frighten me.)
I played one once, ages ago (3.5), and had a lot of fun. I won't try to post a build, since it probably wouldn't be all that good, but from what I've seen and heard, one of the big benefits is that you can end up with one person able to potentially cast high-level arcane AND divine spells, has some of the other abilities (depending on build) of their base class(es), and can use combined spells for additional flexibility in casting, especially if one or more of their base classes casts spontaneously.
I hope this was helpful. I realize it wasn't mechanical at all, but I didn't want to do you or the class a disservice by attempting that after not having played one in so long.
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i wouldn't say there's a lot of hype... i guess it depends on where you look- some people believe it is completely inferior to a straight class caster, others are convinced its overpowered. personally, i think its interesting and can be built well if its something you want to do.
there are 2 basic approaches to building an effective MT, and they kind of depend on the level range of the campaign- you can build a balanced arcane/divine caster (which, i think, works best in campaigns that probably won't go past 13th level), or you can build an arcane or divine caster who also has some ability with the other style (which is more effective if you going to get into the upper levels).
for a balanced caster the whole build relies on using SLAs to qualify for MT... you pick a race with a 2nd level arcane SLA (most aasimars and tieflings work) and either make a cleric with the trickery domain (or fate inquisition) or a wood oracle with the Bend the Grain revelation (all of which grant a 2nd level divine SLA)- now the only requirement you need to meet is 3 ranks in knowledges, so you can pick arcane 2/divine 1 or divine 2/arcane 1 and level as MT from 4-13. this works pretty well at lower levels because you do have a ton of flexibility with spells and enough spells that you may not miss being a little behind on getting new spell levels. the biggest downside is that you lose a ton of flexibility in this build regarding choosing your race/domain/etc, and unless you go sorc/oracle (which will really hurt on when you gain new spell levels) or empyreal sorc/cleric (which is only marginally better) you'll have issues trying to keep both casting stats high enough; you also run into a problem after 13th because then you either have to split levels again or abandon one side of your casting progression.
for the mostly 1 class style the first thing to do is pick your primary caster class (wizard or cleric are the best options, just for gaining new spell levels asap)- take 3 (or 4 if necessary) levels of whatever version of that class you like, then 1 level of your secondary caster class; use the tricks listed above to qualify your secondary class with only one level and then level as MT from 5 (or 6) to 14 (or 15). in this build you'll only ever lose one caster level off your primary class (so a wiz or cl still gains new spell levels at the same time as a sorc or oracle would), but in exchange you gain up to 11 levels of casting in the second class. this approach gives you more flexibility in choosing race/domains/etc and also makes your 2nd casting stat less important (focus on the stat for your primary class and only use DC based spells from that class- use your secondary class for utility/buffs/heals/whatever). the only big drawback here is just that you miss out on class abilities from your base classes that scale with level.
hope that helps. if you have specific build questions feel free to post them or PM me.
The Mystic Theurge done well is kind of like a Bag of Holding full to the brim of alchemical items, masterwork weapons and tools. You get access to two great spell lists and have enough spell slots to load up on utility stuff as well as the stuff you need for combat.
In theory, as long as you play to your strengths (avoid Save-based spells where your weaker primary casting stat will show etc) you can be a pretty effective Wizard who has a sideline in condition removal & healing, or a caster Cleric with access to more offensive & control spells. It also allows you to use the combination of classes to avoid drawbacks of one of them - Let's say you choose Divination as an Opposition School for your Wizard. Just use you Cleric spells to do the scrying. You can build them (with a Wizard or Cleric) so that spell progression for your main class is about equal to a Sorcerer or Oracle.
They do need quite a lot of thought to get right though, and you'll lose progression of a lot of class features from your base classes. No improvement in your Cleric domain powers, no Wizard bonus feats, No improvement in Oracle curses or revelations, no bloodline stuff for Sorcerers. It's a very big tradeoff to become pretty much the ultimate generalist caster in a game that rewards specialism.
@Nate - Thanks for detailed reply.
@KenderKin - I thought about witch and have made a cartomancer withc for some gambit style fun. Might be able to work in party buffer with the build. (I havent played a witch yet so unsure of their progressions)
It is hard to beat the witch as party buffer/BBEG de-buffer via the hexes.
On the other hand going from witch into MT is usually a bad idea because the saves versus hexes does not continue to develop.
yeah- witch has kind of a theurgy feel already with some traditionally divine spells on its list (especially for some of the patrons), but they're probably the worst option for MT... their hexes are one of or maybe even the best class features and you give up getting new ones and destroy the DCs of the ones you have.
you'd be much better off (IMO) just staying a witch and investing in scrolls/pearls of power/etc to cast a larger number of spells/day (and just use the witch's limited but fairly diverse spell list).
Jumping back in to say for buffing/debuffing go for witch or bard. The mystic theurge is a whole lot of fun, but it is as Corvino said, more a utility caster. A MT should rarely be unprepared for a specific encounter due to the sheer number of spells they get, but the things that make witch and bard good at buffing is their class features (and as I said, MT gets none of those).
It's interesting (but not solid) only if you use a spell-like ability to fulfill the requirements. Otherwise you lose too much.
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Arguably you could be a very effective "God Wizard" type as an arcane focused Wizard/Cleric/MT using early entry rules. Lots of Int, just enough Wis to get away with it. Many of the best battlefield control spells don't use saves (Black Tentacles, Wall of Stone), are summons, or force AoE saves that at least one enemy is likely to fail anyway. You could also use Magical Knack to keep the Wizard caster level equal to HD. You're still a level behind for spell access, but no worse than a Sorcerer. The Cleric spells are purely for buffing, healing, condition removal and utility, not offense.
Primary role - Anvil, secondary - Arm. If I rolled one this is the route I'd take.
*Edit* Trickery grants you the Copycat power as your first level domain power. It's been errata confirmed that domain power are all divine, and it's equivalent to Mirror Image (despite only one image) and is thus a 2nd level divine SLA.
Well if you can use Eclectic Training/Esoteric Training with early entry on it, then Mystic Theurge (especially a CHA SAD one) is pretty damn hype worthy. If you are only using early entry, its just "ok". If you are going into it without early entry, you have made a mistake.
...
As far as real life hands on, I play with a guy in my local PFS chapter who regular takes something that people say is inferior and proves people wrong. He has the only effect blaster type wizard I have seen, he can drop a ridiculous amount of damage in a round and nearly always goes first. This same guy has a Mystic Theurge who works on a similar principle but also has some nice things in his back pocket that aren't fireballs. He can also make stuff do half holy damage which is a nice trick to have when monsters have some good resistances.
I'd be curious to see that build if you have it available.
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The hype (if there is any) is because people want it to work so badly. They don't want to decide on arcane or divine spells. They want it all. I happen to be one of them. =) I haven't had a chance to play one yet, but I've seen quite a few in play.
Having said that. It is not usually a powerhouse. The few times I've seen one as a powerhouse it was really because the player has such high system mastery that he can be a powerhouse with virtually anything.
They really don't usually have all that many more spells than a single class caster. What they do have is an exception breadth of possible spells.
When I have seen them most effective is as a support/buff/utility caster in a group that does not have another caster (or only a minimal caster like a ranger). You can find a bunch of different support and buff spells on 2 different lists making it much easier to get stackable benefits. You can use silence, walls, pits, clouds, illusions, cures, condition removals, etc... Whatever type of spell is needed today, you can provide.
The usual is cleric / wizard. You concentrate on spells where the spell DC and or your ability to bypass SR is not as important (or at least has significant effects even if a save is made).
I have lately seen a fair number of sorcerer / oracles so you can have just one casting stat and get it max'd. This gets you the best chance to get the DC pretty high for SoS spells. But you still won't be as high as a single class caster since your spell level will be lower.
I haven't seen one in play, but I've read about a third type. Use wizard / oracle or sorcerer / cleric. The key is the mix of prepared and spontaneous caster. One class is a spontaneous caster for spamming the spells that get used all the time. The other is a prepared caster for getting the special use spells specifically for today.
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If you play an Aasimar (Emberkin) you will have access to the spell like ability pyrotechnics which as a SLA (arcane).
You take your first level in cleric for more hit points and worship a deity with the Fate inquisition for the augury SLA (divine) and then you can take MT at 4th level since you need to take a 3rd level in one of the requirement classes to get the skill point requirement.
That is the most effective way to gain MT quickly. Some people consider it taxes to get to MT quicker but then if you want to hit MT as fast as possible a tax is to be expected. This is also the only way to the best of my knowledge for your MT to get access to 9th level spells by lvl 20. (and then I'm almost positive you need to choice which class is going to get 9th level spells and which is going to miss that mark but a few levels at most ( unless you do the suggested build I talk about later in this post)
if you take the Theurgy feat from Ultimate Magic you can sacrifice an arcane spell to cast divine spells at +1 caster level, alternatively you can sacrifice a divine spell to make the arcane spell do half its damage as holy damage
Note: the sacrificed spell has to be equivalent or higher level regardless of which path you choose.
Also if you play a wizard and choose the admixture school you can change elemental damage on the fly giving you further versatility to get around resistances and such.
A Cleric2/ Wizard 8/ Mystic Theurge 10 (6th level Cleric Spells and 9th level wizard spells) which chooses admixture school can do all of that and also give themselves a crazy high energy resistance of their choosing and then emit a 30-foot aura that transforms magical energy to the chosen energy form of their type. So you can give yourself a really high fire resistance and then any energy damage that comes your way turns to fire damage within 30 feet of you making the saving throw a lot less important to make. (A way of telling high level rocket tag players that you don’t care about the power of their rockets)
Note: this admixture ability only effects supernatural, spell-like abilities, and spells. Extraordinary abilities that do energy damage are not subject to this change.
Combine all of this with spell focus, greater spell focus, spell pen, greater spell pen, and ability score boosting magical items and a penetrating metamagic rod for some bring the pain blaster style play that is difficult for enemies to deal with. Supplement with quicken spell and traits that reduce metamagic slot cost for most frequently used higher level spells as desired.
TL,DR: Mystic Theurge is never going to be the power hitter that a straight single class caster is going to be but I wouldn't worry too much because you are going to hit hard enough and have a lot of options that another caster isn't going to have.
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I literally just posted my burgeoning MT build elsewhere.
Short version: All in one Summon/Control/Buff/Condition Removal with the character basically RPd as composite Al Pacino
Aasimar (Emberkin)
Thassilonian Specialist (Egorian Infernal Binder) 2 / Cleric of Asmodeus (Separatist) 1 / Mystic Theurge X
Inspired by tales of the Runelords, Dagvaar Inkalde chose magic as the vehicle to his future greatness. In his search for magical mastery, he attended the Academae in Varisia and is an adjunct professor of conjuration at Egorian Academy of the Magical Arts in Cheliax (gaining a fierce appreciation for the power and guile of Asmodeus at the latter).
Thassilonian Specialist will let me carry an double up my conjuration specialist bonus spell so I have two of it (Summon Monster X naturally). Egorian Infernal Binder grants I get Assume Control instead...which is totally in line with the conjuring Cult of Personality that is Dagvaar.
I will take Acadamae Graduate, so I can fast track summons at the cost of possible fatigue (or exhaustion).
On the Cleric (separatist) side of things, I will take the domains of Trickery (for Copy Cat to qualify for MT) and Restoration (because Asmodeus will reward my service by removing my fatigue from Acadamae Graduate).
STR 9 / DEX 10 / CON 14 / INT 19 / WIS 15 / CHA 9
Bump INT at L4, WIS at L8
Traits:
Magical Knack (Cleric), Clever Wordplay
Out of Combat:
Knowledge Monkey, Party face
Feats:
L1 Feat: Acadamae Graduate (usable only with arcane summons)
L1 Wiz Feat: Spell focus: Conjuration
L3: Augment Summons
L5: Improved Spell focus: Conjuration
L7: Superior Summons
L9: (Theurgy?)
L11: tbd
Spell Progression:
L1 Wizard 1 (L1 Wiz Spells)
L2 Cleric 1 (L1 Cleric spells)
L3 Wizard 2
L4 MT 1 (L2 Wiz spells)
L5 MT 2 (L2 Cleric spells)
L6 MT 3 (L3 Wiz spells)
L7 MT 4 (L3 Cleric spells)
L8 MT 5 (L4 Wiz spells)
L9 MT 6 (L4 Cleric spells)
L10 MT 7 (L5 Wiz spells)
L11 MT 8 (L5 Cleric spells)
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I'd be curious to see that build if you have it available....
As far as real life hands on, I play with a guy in my local PFS chapter who regular takes something that people say is inferior and proves people wrong. He has the only effect blaster type wizard I have seen, he can drop a ridiculous amount of damage in a round and nearly always goes first. This same guy has a Mystic Theurge who works on a similar principle but also has some nice things in his back pocket that aren't fireballs. He can also make stuff do half holy damage which is a nice trick to have when monsters have some good resistances.
I'll see if he will email me a copy of his stat block. I hang out with him outside of PFS but I know that his Mystic Theurge has the Theurgy Feat from Ultimate Magic....if he sends me his stat block I'll PM it to you
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i'm looking forward to the ACG myself--let's see how the arcanist's superior casting type works on the 'i can cast everything' MT chassis
as for builds themselves: you can get early entry to MT as early as level 4 (through some domains and inquisitions for the cleric, and with certain school powers for he wizard, or using racial SLAs to get the same thing) since you cant take the class on the level you meet the skill points requirement (afaik).
this lets you go clr 1/wiz 2/MT 10 and just deal with the one-level loss for the wizard (or vice-versa if you prefer cleric), effectively trading one level of spell progression for an entire lineup of divine magics (or arcane if you go more divine-centric)
cleanest MT early-entry i've seen without using racials is cleric (desna [luck domain, fate inquisition]) 1 / wizard (diviner [-enchantment/illusion]) 2 / MT 10 / wizard +4 / cleric +3. switching the wizard and cleric levels if you prefer being cleric-focused, obviously.
using esoteric training (with GM permission) lets you bring both sides up to 17/17, allowing you to get 9th level spells on both sides in the extreme endgame (if you go that far). if esoteric training isn't allowed, trade a cleric level for a wizard level so you hit 17/13, allowing 9th level spells on one side and 7th level spells on the other. again, with wizard/cleric swapped if you prefer cleric instead.
I'll see if he will email me a copy of his stat block. I hang out with him outside of PFS but I know that his Mystic Theurge has the Theurgy Feat from Ultimate Magic....if he sends me his stat block I'll PM it to youI'd be curious to see that build if you have it available....
As far as real life hands on, I play with a guy in my local PFS chapter who regular takes something that people say is inferior and proves people wrong. He has the only effect blaster type wizard I have seen, he can drop a ridiculous amount of damage in a round and nearly always goes first. This same guy has a Mystic Theurge who works on a similar principle but also has some nice things in his back pocket that aren't fireballs. He can also make stuff do half holy damage which is a nice trick to have when monsters have some good resistances.
Thank you.
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I use a combination rakshasa tiefling dual blooded sorcerer (fey/infernal) evangelist cleric
Bard inspire, divine spells, arcane control spells, and use the cleric list to spontaneously cast. I also use spectral hand to lay cures up to 100' away.
Good against the living, poor for constructs & vermin.
My MT in JR has reached 14th
It means every round she can cast a spell or two and not run out.....none are really wasted cos she can do it again next round
I think she has ability to cast 80 spells per day now
***wrings hands together in a maniacal fashion and mumbles to himself* See all of the hype that I have created *maniacal laughter ensures***
:) Seriously, thanks for the excellent information on this class. I feel I have a better handle on it now. May be a fun class to mess around with. I wonder how the new Advanced Class Guide classes will impact it?
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I haven't seen one in play, but I've read about a third type. Use wizard / oracle or sorcerer / cleric. The key is the mix of prepared and spontaneous caster. One class is a spontaneous caster for spamming the spells that get used all the time. The other is a prepared caster for getting the special use spells specifically for today.
For those who want the biggest toolbox, prepared + spontaneous really is the most versatile option. Combined spells essentially costs you a +1 increase in spell level in exchange for the ability to spontaneously cast any spell from your prepared spellcasting spell list, in addition to your normal spells known. If this was available as a metamagic, it would be a must have for virtually every caster out there.
I've been working on a comprehensive guide to the mystic theurge for the last several months. Being completely honest, I didn't realize how much of an undertaking that was when I started. I'm almost 70 pages in, roughly 35 thousand words, and I'm not even done covering all of the options available on the PRD. Once that's done, I need to parse through every page of every supplementary book I can get my weaselly little hands on. Even if I finish sometime soon, I think I'm going to hold off until after GenCon to put it out, because I'd love to be able to work the Advanced Class guide into it before all's said and done. Ideally, I'll include a large number of sample builds, including some PFS legal and PFS legal core only builds, so that people can see how it adds up without having to piece through a massive pile of text. I've got 16 different builds laid out conceptually so far, each with it's own focus, although none of them are completely statted out.
*edit* typo
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The Evangelist Cleric Archetype is not a good combination with the Mystic Theurge. The Inspire Courage will never improve and you'll be stuck with minimal rounds/day anyway (unless you take a whole bunch more cleric levels). Even going Cleric 2/Wizard 1/MT 10/Cleric 7 you've still only got +2 to rolls at level 20. You also trade out spontaneous heals, which is surely one string of the MT's multitasking bow.
I have thought up an interesting and potentially useful side-effect of dipping Cleric for a level to get your Wizard access to Mystic Theurge. You get an aura. "So what?", I hear you snort. So you qualify for Sacred Summons. At even-numbered levels your Mystic Theurge is now a better summoner than a Conjurer.
The Evangelist Cleric Archetype is not a good combination with the Mystic Theurge. The Inspire Courage will never improve and you'll be stuck with minimal rounds/day anyway (unless you take a whole bunch more cleric levels).
I have thought up an interesting and potentially useful side-effect of dipping Cleric for a level to get your Wizard access to Mystic Theurge. You get an aura. "So what?", I hear you snort. So you qualify for Sacred Summons. At even-numbered levels your Mystic Theurge is now a better summoner than a Conjurer.
Sacred summons is truly amazing. If you can sneak your way into adding Summon Nature's Ally on your spell list, you can increase your summon's options using Moonlight Summons, Sunlight Summons, and Starlight Summons.
Evangelist isn't too terrible, although straight cleric is generally superior. The biggest cost is only getting one domain, and needing that for qualifying for theurge. The change in spontaneous spellcasting is nice for some builds. I'm fond of combining it with the flagbearer feat and the banner of the ancient kings, just to get a little bit more buffing out there. Optimal? Certainly not. But for a class defined by the size of it's toolbox, new tools should rarely be turned down.
I'm also not sure that Combined Spells works quite like that, Angry Wiggles. The ability description is as follows:
"Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast. For example, a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge can use this ability to spontaneously cast a bless spell using a 2nd-level sorcerer spell slot, if the character had a prepared bless spell using a 1st-level cleric spell slot, even if that spell had already been cast that day."
Badly, badly worded. I read it as "You can only use Combined spells to spontaneously cast spells you memorized today for your prepared class. But if you've already cast it from memory, you can use Combined Spells to cast it again."
Plus you can summon in many succubus, kytons, and other saucy outsiders and have a great, if short party
I'm also not sure that Combined Spells works quite like that, Angry Wiggles. The ability description is as follows:
"Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast. For example, a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge can use this ability to spontaneously cast a bless spell using a 2nd-level sorcerer spell slot, if the character had a prepared bless spell using a 1st-level cleric spell slot, even if that spell had already been cast that day."
Badly, badly worded. I read it as "You can only use Combined spells to spontaneously cast spells you memorized today for your prepared class. But if you've already cast it from memory, you can use Combined Spells to cast it again."
You are correct. I suppose I worded my above post pretty poorly. Even as it sits, this is still a pretty significant increase in the amount of options available to us.
I get first dibs on A-bomb theurge
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No mention of the M.T. possibly being the ultimate necromancer yet? Why? Because you get two casters worth of undead to create.
built one of those. it's something to behold.
so here, behold:
CN(or CE) Dhampir (ancient-born) cleric (desna [luck, liberation inq.]) 4 / wizard (cruoromancer thassilonian mage (gluttony), necromancy [-abju/ench]) 6 / mystic theurge 10
(clr 1/wiz 5/MT 10/wiz 1/clr 3)
stats (20pb):
str 16 (-2 +2r), dex 16, con 18 (5 -2r), int 30 (10), wis 28 (7 +2r), cha 16
wis/int/int/int/int (level), +6 all (gear), +4 int/wis (book/wish)
traits: signature spell (animate dead) / gifted adept (animate dead)
feats:
1 - improved initiative
2 - spell focus (necromancy)*, command undead*
3 - varisian tattoo (necromancy)
5 - bloatmage initiate (necromancy)
7 - improved familiar (cacodaemon)
9 - spell specialization (animate dead)
11 - persistent spell
13 - greater spell focus (necromancy)
15 - quickent spell
17 - dazing spell
19 - spell perfection (animate dead)
SUGGESTED SPELLS: animate dead, command undead, (greater) death knell (aura), and desecrate are all important for building your army, but besides that, anything goes--you have more spells than you know what to do with.
WIZARD
0 (infinite), 1st (7+2/day), 2nd (7+2/day), 3rd (6+2/day), 4th (6+2/day), 5th (6+2/day), 6th (6+2/day), 7th (4+2/day), 8th (3+2/day), 9th (2+2/day)
CLERIC
0 (infinite), 1st (6+1/day), 2nd (6+1/day), 3rd (6+1/day), 4th (6+1/day), 5th (6+1/day), 6th (6+1/day), 7th (4+1/day), 8th (3+1/day), 9th (2+1/day)
MISC:
favored class (wizard)
esoteric training (35 fame [+3 cleric, +1 wizard])
greensting scorpion familiar, later changed to cacodaemon
strand of prayer beads (standard string -healing/smiting beads, 18,000g)
\-->bead of karma: 1/day, +4 CL for 10 minutes (!!!)
moon circlet (CL +1 waxing, +2 full, -1 waning, -2 new)
'reliquary' +5 arrow catch | med fort | spell storing mithral buckler (acts as permanent alter for desecrate)
CL TOTALS:
CL 17/17 wizard/cleric
CL (animate dead) 39-42 (wiz/clr) (17 base, +4 focus, +4 spec, +2 untyped (from traits), +2 tattoo, +2 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1 to +2) wayfinder, +1 greater death knell aura, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
CL 29-32 (control undead) (17 base, +2 focus, +1 tattoo, +1 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1 to +2) wayfinder, +1 death knell, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
UNDEAD BUCKETS:
animate (wizard) - 200 HD (blood command), 81-90 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
animate (cleric) - 200 HD (blood command), 81-90 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
feat - 6 HD
control undead - [one creature], 32 days/cast (refreshed every full moon)
oddly enough, not an early-entry build (wanted the level 5 cruoromancer ability ASAP)
STILL looking for more ways to beef it up further while keeping it useful for things other than making an army of corpses, but i'm not sure what more i can do at this point. he def. needs scribe scroll, but im unsure how to grant it (since he did the PFS swap for spell focus).
muse: i could drop improved init for spell focus at level 1, keeping the scribe scroll bonus feat from wizard...
editmuse: if only there was a way to grab the spirit vessels oracle revelation--it'd add another +20 HD of undead to the animate buckets.
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No mention of the M.T. possibly being the ultimate necromancer yet? Why? Because you get two casters worth of undead to create.
built one of those. it's something to behold.
I like it a lot. Although it looks like you added the bonuses from spell specialization, varisian tattoo and bloatmage initiate twice. and I'm not certain why you're adding something for spell focus. That should boost the DC, but not the caster level.
I'm fond of this setup.
archon blooded Aasimar
10 str | 10 dex | 14 con | 14 int | 16 wis | 13 cha after racial bonuses at level 1, boosted by items as appropriate later.
Traits: Magical Knack (cleric), Indomitable faith
1: Wizard (Necromancy school, command undead)
2: Cleric of Dispater (Trickery Domain, Law domain)
3: Black Blooded Oracle (Juju Mystery [City of Seven Spears], spirit vessels revelation)
4: Mystic Theurge (wizard/Cleric)
5: Mystic Theurge (2nd wizard/2nd Cleric)
6: Mystic Theurge (wizard/Cleric)
7: Mystic Theurge (3rd wizard/3rd Cleric)
8: Mystic Theurge (wizard/Cleric)
9: Mystic Theurge (4th wizard/4th Cleric)
10: Mystic Theurge (wizard/Cleric)
11: Mystic Theurge (5th wizard/5th Cleric)
12: Mystic Theurge (wizard/Cleric)
13: Mystic Theurge (6th wizard/6th Cleric)
14: Cleric
15: Cleric 7th
16: Cleric
17: Cleric 8th
18: Cleric
19: Cleric 9th
20: Cleric
Feats:
1: Spell Focus (Necromancy), Scribe Scroll (bonus), Command Undead (bonus)
3: Craft Wondrous Item
5: Adept Channel
7: Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy)
9: Bloatmage Initiate (Necromancy)
11: Spell Specialization (Animate Dead)
13: Undead Master
15: Extend Spell
17: Heighten Spell
19: Quicken Spell
important items: Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Bone Razor, Bead of Karma,
end result:
We cast Animate Dead as
Cleric == 29 (20 base, +1 stone, +1 bloatmage, +4 bead of karma, +1 varisian tattoo, +2 spell specialization)
Wizard == 20 (11 base, +1 stone, +1 bloatmage, +4 bead of karma, +1 varisian tattoo, +2 spell specialization)
We have three channel pools to control with HD caps of 1, 8, and 17, respectively.
We can control up to 6 times our caster level for Animate Dead, and all of our undead gain the maximum hit points allowed by their HD.
If we get to coup de grace, we can use the bone razor to make regular skeletons with no HD limit.
total undead pools
Cleric Animation: 174 (116 at once with desecrate)
Wizard Animation: 120 (80 at once with desecrate
Cleric Channel: 8
Wizard Channel: 1
Adept Channel: 17
Bone Razor: any one undead
There are ways to get the caster level higher than that, but not always consistently. Like the moon circlet, death knell, wayfinder resonant powers, etc. None of this even comes close to a juju oracle/gravewalker witch theurge with a dominated hag, the leadership feat, and a bunch of low level witches.
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@angry wiggles: spell perfection doubles the feat bonuses, note that they're only doubled for animate dead calculations.
also, my personal copy of the build has just gotten a teensy bit beefier: swapping over to cleric of urgathoa you can grab magic(arcane) subdomain and the death(undead) subdomain, giving the arcane beacon ability for another +1CL, and letting you heal allies with negative energy by high-fiving them. you can do the same as a separatist of pharasma with death(undead) and trading the second domain for magic(arcane).
for early-access builds, go separatist with magic(arcane) and the fate inquisition--though if you can pop out any old domain for an inquisition, you wouldn't need to go separatist if you worship a deity with the magic domain.
edit: i also noticed that cruoromancer trades out arcane bond, so that frees up the improved familiar feat (and unfortunately those tasty soul gems as well)
pardon the doublepost, but does the cruoromancer's commanding infusion stack with the effect of desecrate to 6xCL (3xCL doubled) undead created per spell? the wording seems a bit iffy to me.
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... It is not usually a powerhouse. The few times I've seen one as a powerhouse it was really because the player has such high system mastery that he can be a powerhouse with virtually anything.....
When I have seen them most effective is as a support/buff/utility caster in a group that does not have another caster (or only a minimal caster like a ranger). You can find a bunch of different support and buff spells on 2 different lists making it much easier to get stackable benefits. You can use silence, walls, pits, clouds, illusions, cures, condition removals, etc... Whatever type of spell is needed today, you can provide.
The above are the main points.
I've been playing one in society now and it has been excellent at battlefield control.
essentially...the Theurge doesn't do damage but prevents the bad guys from doing any.
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Interesting thread!
Folks looking to play a mystic theurge right from 1st level might want to check out the Theurg base class contained in the
New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press
Also as a sort of alternate to the MT (similar but without losing favored class and class abilities and full spell casting) is the ancient lorekeeper oracle archetype (elf, half elf or other with the elf-blooded aspect). You keep the good things without losing much. Your arcane spells do cost more since they are obtained one spell level higher and you only get one at every other level, but you get to choose them as opposed to them being dictated to you as with most oracles. They are also very flavorful. I am looking forward to playing one with the Time mystery, probably half elf with ancestral arms so he can use a nice reach weapon, but this is still more conceptual and less spelled out.
One good thing about the arcane spells being slotted one level higher is that the DCs will also be higher for saves. Also, he is pretty Single-attribute dependent since both arcane and divine cast off of the charisma stat. The unsettled part (pretty sure) is that it is unclear whether there is an arcane spell failure chance with those arcane spells. I tend to think the answer is "no", but reasonable minds can and do differ on this.
pardon the doublepost, but does the cruoromancer's commanding infusion stack with the effect of desecrate to 6xCL (3xCL doubled) undead created per spell? the wording seems a bit iffy to me.
I would allow it in a game but I can certainly see why someone would not, since desecrate allows you to create double the normal amount of undead (normal is 2, and your ability is strictly outside normal). That said I also wonder if it might be intended the same way critical multipliers do, so that you end up with 5xCL undead. It sounds weird, but offhand I can't think of anything that stacks multipliers like this ability other than crits. My rationale is that the ability that comes along with the commanding infusion lets you control up to 5HD worth of undead per CL rather than 4, suggesting (albeit very weakly) that this was intended to stack with desecrate for 5xCL.
healing witch, ancient lorekeeper oracle (with bonus EH: arcane), and razmiran priest sorcerer, are all decent pseudo-theurges for those who cant deal with a spell level loss.
Requirements
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
My understanding is that Spell Like Abilities do not count as Spells and cannot be used to meet the prerequisite for the prestige class.
I've had several fun builds with this. Of course you don't have to take it as soon as possible. You could wait till your fifth level Wizard Feat and be off a couple caster levels or whatever class feature you want to grab from the class tree before switching.
One of my builds was a Sorcerer (fey)/Oracle(Waves)who was a pirate on the Inner Sea. It takes an extra level of each class to qualify but both are CHA based casters so you can jack that skill up for bonus spells and higher saves. This guy was surprisingly adequate in combat as well. I referred to him as a "second line" fighter and gave him a Long Spear so he could stand behind tanks and threaten the same squares. I went ahead and sprung for Extra Revelations to get more Oracle features while advancing in Theurge. Sure I gave up other feat options but it's always a choice and I liked how this guy turned out.
With spontaneous casting for both lists I could really just pick whatever spell I wanted. Quicken spell of course let's you cast two spells. And if you play through tenth level of Theurge and get Spell Synthesis you can theoretically cast three spells in a round. A quickened spell followed by a Divine spell simultaneous with an Arcane spell.
One of my tricks was the Water Sight Revelation which allowed me to see through mist or fog combined with Obscuring Mist (Or at 14th Level Cloud Kill and a necklace of adaptation.) Poke and move with the Long Spear. It was a blast.
I also had a +2 con bonus, Toughness and was a half elf adding hit points for two preferred classes to help make up some wherewithal.