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I'm sorry but building your Paladins to be easily misled is just somehow wrong. Dumping wisdom does mean tanking your will save as well. BTW, as a DM, "leading the Paladin" out of the room is a gambit I take very strict controls with.
On top of that, you're still not giving respect to the fact that a typical party needs to be able to trick the paladin so they can accomplish goals without being hindered by his paladin code. That ALONE is reason to dump wisdom into the dirt.
I don't want to turn this into a huge religious or political discussion, but I have to disagree. Building your paladin to be easily misled is just basing your character in reality. People that blindly follow codes (religious and political zealots) are, by their very definition, lacking in wisdom.
Tanking wisdom on a paladin does lower your will save, but it doesn't TANK your will save. From the moment you hit level 2 you'll still have a higher will save than any other martial class in the game (except POSSIBLY a ranger, who you'll surpass again a few levels later). Even if the paladin DOES get controlled, he's the least likely to cause party deaths because he can't use his signature ability against good and neutral characters (ie your party).
I min/max stats a little more than the OP, even going so far as probably going angelkin aasimar *hangs head in shame*. I know, I know - I feel a little cheesy doing it. But it does fit well, both mechanically and for fluff. Here's what I'm thinking for stats:
Str: 18 (10, +2 racial)
Dex: 10
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha: 17 (7, +2 racial)
Please read back and note that several of us have argued strongly that dumping WIS is a very bad idea.
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The nice thing about Ultimate Mercy is no material component required.
Quote: You must provide the material component for raise dead or choose to accept 1 temporary negative level; this level automatically goes away after 24 hours, never becomes a permanent negative level, and cannot be overcome in any way except by waiting for the duration to expire.
But I suppose you are basiclly right
I did say it wasn't required. :)
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I don't want to turn this into a huge religious or political discussion, but I have to disagree. Building your paladin to be easily misled is just basing your character in reality. People that blindly follow codes (religious and political zealots) are, by their very definition, lacking in wisdom.
You obviously have no idea what a paladin is, or what a code of conduct is. Following a code isn't the same as blindly following a code. A paladin understands their code of conduct, chooses it because they agree with it, and sees it as a way of life, not a limitation.
Let me put it to you this way: Have you ever committed murder? Why not? Because you were afraid of getting caught, or because it's not something you'd ever genuinely want to do? That's how a paladin feels about their code of conduct.
It's not a limitation, and they don't follow it because they have to. Following it is just who they are. And most of them are smart enough to realize that other people don't feel the same way, and won't follow the same code. They aren't required to stop their party members from violating their code, even when they do know that it's happening, so their code shouldn't be a limitation on anyone else in the party, unless the party members want to do blatantly evil things.
I still recommend you read the links I provided in my earlier post. There are some good discussions there, dispelling the myth of the "lawful stupid" paladin. There are also some good paladin behavior threads here on the forums you might want to read, some with really great examples of well played paladins.
And as for your earlier post saying that the "lawful stupid" stereotype comes from somewhere. You're right. It does come from somewhere. It comes from a lot of people like you misunderstanding the class over the years, which is why discussions about this sort of thing are so common.
Tanking wisdom on a paladin does lower your will save, but it doesn't TANK your will save. From the moment you hit level 2 you'll still have a higher will save than any other martial class in the game (except POSSIBLY a ranger, who you'll surpass again a few levels later). Even if the paladin DOES get controlled, he's the least likely to cause party deaths because he can't use his signature ability against good and neutral characters (ie your party).
This part I actually agree with you about. As posted above, I'm planning to dump wisdom on my paladin. I'll still have +4 Will at level 2, which is better than most martial PCs. I may miss out on surprise rounds sometimes, but I accept that as a consequence of my decision.
Please read back and note that several of us have argued strongly that dumping WIS is a very bad idea.
I min/max stats a little more than the OP, even going so far as probably going angelkin aasimar *hangs head in shame*. I know, I know - I feel a little cheesy doing it. But it does fit well, both mechanically and for fluff. Here's what I'm thinking for stats:
Str: 18 (10, +2 racial)
Dex: 10
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha: 17 (7, +2 racial)
Depends. In a PFS game, I'd agree you shouldn't dump Wisdom. But then, for one, paladins have good Fort and Will saves by default and two, the Charisma and Divine Grace covers that.
On top of that, unless you really want to pump your Perception checks, ask your GM if they'll allow you to take this feat. If they do, you're in business.
Back on topic, I picked up Weapon Focus (Greatsword) and I hit damn near everything, so if that helps.
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You obviously have no idea what a paladin is, or what a code of conduct is. Following a code isn't the same as blindly following a code. A paladin understands their code of conduct, chooses it because they agree with it, and sees it as a way of life, not a limitation.
Following the law is ALWAYS a limitation, whether you do it because you want to or not. It's not about whether it's a limitation to the paladin, it's about whether it's a limitation to the rest of the party. What you're trying to say is that the paladin refuses to murder in cold blood, but is entirely fine with the rest of the party murdering in cold blood, right? Because otherwise IT'S A PARTY LIMITATION.
Sometimes murdering things in cold blood is just simply the best way to enforce the law. Just ask the LAPD.
Let me put it to you this way: Have you ever committed murder? Why not? Because you were afraid of getting caught, or because it's not something you'd ever genuinely want to do? That's how a paladin feels about their code of conduct.
You sure are making a lot of assumptions when you continue your point as if I've never committed murder. My lawyer says I can't comment any more on this particular subject.
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I love how you trimmed my line about "their code shouldn't be a limitation on anyone else in the party, unless the party members want to do blatantly evil things" when quoting me, then gave the blatantly evil example of cold blooded murder as something a paladin wouldn't let their party do.
Newsflash: No character with a good alignment would allow cold blooded murder without their alignment shifting to neutral (at least). That has nothing to do with being a paladin or following a code of conduct. That's just a matter of being a sane and normal member of society.
When I talk about their code not limiting their party, I'm not talking about blatantly evil acts, and I specifically said so in that post. I'm responding to things like your comment earlier in this thread:
So you've NEVER had a rogue, or a sorcerer with bluff, or a barbarian that uses intimidate (torture) as a means to extract information from prisoners, or a diviner that figures out the enemy before you have the proof to break into his house, or..... any NUMBER of other prototypical character concepts that don't mesh with a paladin's code? Congratulations. You have an atypical gaming group. That makes your statement completely unhelpful for a vast majority of gaming groups, and downright offensive for a PFS discussion.
And I notice you're still the only one in this thread who seems to have a problem with paladin personalities and codes of conduct, yet you call the rest of us atypical.
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I must take action because someone is WRONG on the internet!
With that many points, the only way I could make a character that was battle effective in my designated role as party tank and that was to take a hit to one of those stats.Here's your build:
STR- 16 (14+2 human)
DEX- 10
CON- 15
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16Simple, that 15 in CON is useless. Take those two points, and you can have your WIS back to 10.
CON 15 is useless at level 1, yes, but my plan was to boost it to 16 when I got a new attribute point at level 4. That way, by level 20 I'd have an 18 in STR and CHA, and a 16 in CON. Serious question, then: Can I get by with a CON of 14 all the way until level 20, or am I better off getting it up to 16?
Falchion = Greatsword DPR at +19 damage and Falchion > Greatsword at +20 damage if you have a keen weapon.
Without a keen Weapon Falchion = Greatsword at 39 damage and Falchion > Greatsword at +40 damage.
However the Nodachi is > Falchion unless enlarged or vital striking.
Even at +60 damage however the DPR difference is 3.895 between Falchion and Greatsword so *Shrug* pick whichever.
Basically You want to wield two handed a Falchion, Greatsword, Falcata, or Nodachi if you go purely by the numbers and Falcata ends up best.
Yet again however it is only an improvement of 4.8925 DPR at most at +60 damage.
So in my opinion I would not burn the feat and would just pick Greatsword, Nodachi, or Falchion as you prefer.
Since we're doing the Jade Regent campaign, I'm going to start with either a greatsword or falchion, but once we get to Tian, I'm grabbing a nodachi at the first opportunity (and I will retrain weapon focus if I end up taking the feat). Early on I'm not really stuck on any single weapon, but at later levels I want to be nodachi ALL THE WAY. Just the image alone of a Death Paladin swinging a huge katana is worth it. The extra DPR is gravy. Very sweet gravy...
@op: i can do without it for the most part, but for an intimidate-centric build with cornugon smash, weapon focus going down to shatter defenses (and later dreadful carnage) is totes worth it if youre going in that direction--though just stick to using cornugon and dreadful carnage--eating your turn (dazzling display) with something you can do for free (cornugon, dreadful) is just stupid.
@op: i can do without it for the most part, but for an intimidate-centric build with cornugon smash, weapon focus going down to shatter defenses (and later dreadful carnage) is totes worth it if youre going in that direction--though just stick to using cornugon and dreadful carnage--eating your turn (dazzling display) with something you can do for free (cornugon, dreadful) is just stupid.
Gotcha, though I'd still need to take dazzling display as a prereq for shatter defenses.
AND WHILE I HAVE EVERYONE'S ATTENTION:
What's a good Critical Feat Chain?
My paladin will worship Shizuru, whose favored weapon is the katana, and I plan on sticking to that as my primary weapon. Katanas are only exotic if wielded one handed, so I can wield it two handed as a martial weapon, doing 1d8 with an 18-20 crit range. Not the most optimized weapon in the game, but close enough for me, and the fluff is perfect for a Tien worshiper of the goddess of swordfighting.
Is there some bonus you get using your god's favorite weapon? Because if not, have you considered the nodachi? It's basically a big, two-handed katana and is 1) classified simply as a martial weapon and 2) a more powerful weapon to boot (same crit range, 1d10 damage, brace special feature).
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Is there some bonus you get using your god's favorite weapon?
No mechanical bonus. I just like the RP.
There's a post on these forums somewhere from one of the top Paizo guys (I think James Jacobs, but I might be misremembering) about how divine characters really should stick to their deity's favored weapon, just like they really should stick to the same alignment as their deity. Anything else is technically wrong in how you worship your deity, though being "a little off" is acceptable, as long as they don't take it too far into true heresy.
I'm actually surprised paladins don't get proficiency with their deity's favored weapon by default. They probably just overlooked it, since they figured the paladin's martial weapon proficiency would cover everything. Shizuru and the one handed katana thing is the only exception I can think of offhand, though I can still use it two handed, which is my plan anyway.
Edit: Just thought of another deity with an exotic favored weapon: Calstria's whip, and CN alignment is eligible for anti-paladin worship.
To pick up on a comment upthread, Greater Mercy vs Extra Lay on Hands isn't that linear concerning raw HP healed. The relative value of both feats fluctuates based on level and Charisma. (TL;DR: Higher Cha makes Greater Mercy better, higher level makes ELoH better)
It's worth noting there's good synergy in having both feats, however.
The key for me is that it's not just about total amount healed, though. It's about when you can use that healing. Lay on Hands is primarily used during fights, especially if you have a wand of Cure Light Wounds for between fights, and really, every paladin should have one of those. So you're going to want more healing all at once when you use it, rather than some one round, and some the next round. That extra 1d6 in your first LoH of the fight could be what keeps you standing long enough to use LoH again the following round.
But yes, I agree that getting both is best. I just prioritize Greater Mercy higher than Extra Lay on Hands when deciding on order.
I'm even considering Greater Mercy at level 3 and waiting until level 5 for Power Attack. At low levels, the ability to hit has a bigger impact on damage dealt than your damage bonus, so PA isn't worth using. I never take it before level 3 on any PC, unless it's a prereq for something else. But having it at level 3 and 4 vs extra healing from my LoH is a tough call. I'm leaning towards PA first, but I could see going either way with that.
Is there some bonus you get using your god's favorite weapon?No mechanical bonus. I just like the RP.
There's a post on these forums somewhere from one of the top Paizo guys (I think James Jacobs, but I might be misremembering) about how divine characters really should stick to their deity's favored weapon, just like they really should stick to the same alignment as their deity. Anything else is technically wrong in how you worship your deity, though being "a little off" is acceptable, as long as they don't take it too far into true heresy.
I'm actually surprised paladins don't get proficiency with their deity's favored weapon by default. They probably just overlooked it, since they figured the paladin's martial weapon proficiency would cover everything. Shizuru and the one handed katana thing is the only exception I can think of offhand, though I can still use it two handed, which is my plan anyway.
Edit: Just thought of another deity with an exotic favored weapon: Calstria's whip, and CN alignment is eligible for anti-paladin worship.
To pick up on a comment upthread, Greater Mercy vs Extra Lay on Hands isn't that linear concerning raw HP healed. The relative value of both feats fluctuates based on level and Charisma. (TL;DR: Higher Cha makes Greater Mercy better, higher level makes ELoH better)
It's worth noting there's good synergy in having both feats, however.
The key for me is that it's not just about total amount healed, though. It's about when you can use that healing. Lay on Hands is primarily used during fights, especially if you have a wand of Cure Light Wounds for between fights, and really, every paladin should have one of those. So you're going to want more healing all at once when you use it, rather than some one round, and some the next round. That extra 1d6 in your first LoH of the fight could be what keeps you standing long enough to use LoH again the following round.
But yes, I agree that getting both...
A big "YES!" to all this. Power Attack is nice. Being an unstoppable wall of armored righteousness and hit points is better. It seems to be what the class was built for.
While flavor-y, I think a whip would be a pretty bad way to go for antipaladins. The whip takes a lot of feats to really shine, and paladins of any stripe just don't get that many.
CON 15 is useless at level 1, yes, but my plan was to boost it to 16 when I got a new attribute point at level 4. That way, by level 20 I'd have an 18 in STR and CHA, and a 16 in CON. Serious question, then: Can I get by with a CON of 14 all the way until level 20, or am I better off getting it up to 16?
With that many points, the only way I could make a character that was battle effective in my designated role as party tank and that was to take a hit to one of those stats.Here's your build:
STR- 16 (14+2 human)
DEX- 10
CON- 15
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16Simple, that 15 in CON is useless. Take those two points, and you can have your WIS back to 10.
14 is just fine. Of course, you'll get a few magic items that boost it later.
@op: i can do without it for the most part, but for an intimidate-centric build with cornugon smash, weapon focus going down to shatter defenses (and later dreadful carnage) is totes worth it if youre going in that direction--though just stick to using cornugon and dreadful carnage--eating your turn (dazzling display) with something you can do for free (cornugon, dreadful) is just stupid.Gotcha, though I'd still need to take dazzling display as a prereq for shatter defenses.
AND WHILE I HAVE EVERYONE'S ATTENTION:
What's a good Critical Feat Chain?
staggering and stunning critical arent resisted by much, and are crazy powerful, especially in conjuction with shaken/frightened+sickened (from intimidate and a cruel-enchanted weapon). Tack on dazing assault (if possible) for even more debuffing.
If were talking fun crit weapons, how does the fauchard stack up?
Using your method (which is a bit simplistic, but at least we're doing apples to apples), the falchion becomes equal to the greatsword in damage when STATIC BONUSES on each for damage are +17. Does that sound high? Well, remember we are talking about a Paladin, so smiting makes getting a +17 static bonus to damage quite easy. From then on (as static bonuses climb), the falchion will provide more damage in the long haul.Greatsword with improved critical
(80x7) + (20x14) = 840 Total Damage Output
Falchion
(70x5) + (30x10)= 650 Total Damage Output
What's a good way to calculate static bonuses over level progression?
What's a good way to calculate static bonuses over level progression?Using your method (which is a bit simplistic, but at least we're doing apples to apples), the falchion becomes equal to the greatsword in damage when STATIC BONUSES on each for damage are +17. Does that sound high? Well, remember we are talking about a Paladin, so smiting makes getting a +17 static bonus to damage quite easy. From then on (as static bonuses climb), the falchion will provide more damage in the long haul.Greatsword with improved critical
(80x7) + (20x14) = 840 Total Damage Output
Falchion
(70x5) + (30x10)= 650 Total Damage Output
Using WBL as a guide and no more than 25% per item a Non-Smiting paladin will get +17 at around 6-8 depending on strength focus.
With smite at about level 4, Maybe 3 if strength focused and rushing a magic weapon.
+19 Damage with therefore vary between 5-9 based on build and items.
But as I said in my earlier post, Here, even at 95% chance to hit and a +60 to damage the DPR gains are minimal as long as you are two handing one of the big four, Greatsword, Nodachi, Falchion, and Falcata.
Here is the math.
The google drive link is best downloaded as it is a spreadsheet.
Below is the DPR formula as I know it.
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.