Weapon Focus: Worth it for 2H Paladin?


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still had +3-6 from my cha added to will save and a cloak of resistance most the game.

So even at like level 5 with a 16 cha and a cloak of resistance +1 my will save was still +7. By level 16 it was +10 from the base save, +5 from the cloak of resistance, +6 from my cha modifier and even with a -1 on my wis modifier I still have a +20 will save. I think +20 is more than sufficient vs. wasting points on a point buy for an otherwise useless stat.


Captain K. wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Captain K. wrote:

For points which could be spent on Cha.

But he didn't- he spent it on getting Con from 14 to 15, which is meh, and even if he did, the two points gained back would not increase the 16 at all.

Oh, I wouldn't bother with that.

Con 14 is more than enough for a Paladin.

As you were

My plan was to raise CON to 16 at my first level up and leave it there fir the rest of the campaign. Is a 14 CON all a paladin really needs, because if I put it at 14, I'm not going to ever raise it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
EsperMagic wrote:
So even at like level 5 with a 16 cha and a cloak of resistance +1 my will save was still +7. By level 16 it was +10 from the base save, +5 from the cloak of resistance, +6 from my cha modifier and even with a -1 on my wis modifier I still have a +20 will save. I think +20 is more than sufficient vs. wasting points on a point buy for an otherwise useless stat.

Still looking at those 10 level between 5th and 16th where it might not have been enough. And again, having a negative skill check on Perception and Sense Motive when you don't have an ally to roll for you is never a safe bet.

Sovereign Court

Honestly, no. You have better options for feats. Extra Lay on Hands. Greater Mercy. Toughness, as you said. All of these will help you far more than a meager +1 to attack, without tying you to a specific weapon type. It's essentially a Fighter feat for most builds IMO. I realize what Bodhi's guide says... but it's so sub-optimal that this feat is really not worth considering IMO.

On the other hand, Fey Foundling stacks very nicely as you level. The cleric heals you for loads more (specially if he's a healing domain cleric...).

The Exchange

First of all, furious focus is just a horrible feat. I don't know why it was even brought up in an advice column. If people are going to be giving advice on power levels, they should at least understand powergaming, or math... or preferably both.

Second, the appropriate stats for a powergamed paladin are str 18 (16+2), dex 12, con 14, int 10 (though you can afford to drop to 7), wis 8 (or 7), cha 14 (or 16 if you tanked int and wis). For people crying about will saves, it doesn't matter. You add your charisma to saves at level 2 anyway, and you get bonuses against fear on top of that. If you're REALLY worried, it's still the same or cheaper to buy a clear spindle ioun stone than it is to buy an item to raise your will higher.

Lastly, it's worth noting that weapon focus is a prerequisite for dazzling display. If you're going to take that feat, it's a moot point. You'll need weapon focus.

I'd suggest going cornugon smash and not taking weapon focus / dazzling display, though. It will save on feats AND combat actions. If you have a rogue or ninja in the party they could build around your cornugon smash by taking shattered defenses (mostly for builds that won't flank like archers or strength rogues with reach weapons).

Also, it's worth noting that having a low perception and sense motive on a paladin is usually a GOOD thing. Being stuck as an overly-restricted lawful stupid character means that most of your perception and sense motive checks will be the result of your party trying to accomplish things without forcing PvP or atonement.

Sovereign Court

See this is why I play patient Paladins of Sarenrae, that naively assume they can redeem everyone through words. Being a Pally doesn't mean shoving your sword down everyone's throat for daring to disagree with your high and mighty morals.


Demoyn wrote:

First of all, furious focus is just a horrible feat. I don't know why it was even brought up in an advice column. If people are going to be giving advice on power levels, they should at least understand powergaming, or math... or preferably both.

Second, the appropriate stats for a powergamed paladin are str 18 (16+2), dex 12, con 14, int 10 (though you can afford to drop to 7), wis 8 (or 7), cha 14 (or 16 if you tanked int and wis). For people crying about will saves, it doesn't matter. You add your charisma to saves at level 2 anyway, and you get bonuses against fear on top of that. If you're REALLY worried, it's still the same or cheaper to buy a clear spindle ioun stone than it is to buy an item to raise your will higher.

Lastly, it's worth noting that weapon focus is a prerequisite for dazzling display. If you're going to take that feat, it's a moot point. You'll need weapon focus.

I'd suggest going cornugon smash and not taking weapon focus / dazzling display, though. It will save on feats AND combat actions. If you have a rogue or ninja in the party they could build around your cornugon smash by taking shattered defenses (mostly for builds that won't flank like archers or strength rogues with reach weapons).

Also, it's worth noting that having a low perception and sense motive on a paladin is usually a GOOD thing. Being stuck as an overly-restricted lawful stupid character means that most of your perception and sense motive checks will be the result of your party trying to accomplish things without forcing PvP or atonement.

Wow don't sound pretentious or anything.

Furious Focus is an incredibly good feat and much better than Weapon Focus in the long run if you have to choose. +5 to your first attack in a round is not matched by any other feat in the game, math my friend, is not on your side.


Eh...I have to agree that Furious Focus is rather lame on a Paladin. There are totes cooler options like Extra Lay on Hands being incredible. For a 10th level Paladin, it's another 35 hit points for your adventuring day on average.

With Fey Foundling that's another 55 hit points for your adventuring day. Fey Foundling is just in general incredible for Paladins.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
So even at like level 5 with a 16 cha and a cloak of resistance +1 my will save was still +7. By level 16 it was +10 from the base save, +5 from the cloak of resistance, +6 from my cha modifier and even with a -1 on my wis modifier I still have a +20 will save. I think +20 is more than sufficient vs. wasting points on a point buy for an otherwise useless stat.
Still looking at those 10 level between 5th and 16th where it might not have been enough. And again, having a negative skill check on Perception and Sense Motive when you don't have an ally to roll for you is never a safe bet.

You're assuming I had no allies to roll for it though, which would be false. We had a bard for social interactions and the rest of the party was consistently had above levels skill bonuses in perception. I wasnt going to waste points to get it for myself. Because if perception is the most rolled skill in the game(which it probably is) someone else is going to focus on it. you dont need every party member focusing on it though, thats a waste of resources.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
EsperMagic wrote:
You're assuming I had no allies to roll for it though, which would be false. We had a bard for social interactions and the rest of the party was consistently had above levels skill bonuses in perception. I wasnt going to waste points to get it for myself. Because if perception is the most rolled skill in the game(which it probably is) someone else is going to focus on it. you dont need every party member focusing on it though, thats a waste of resources.

Until it's YOU that need to roll it to avoid being surprised or some other horrible consequence. It doesn't matter what your friends bonuses are when the GM tells YOU to roll it, not them.

Maybe that doesn't happen in your playstyle, but it does in mine.

Sovereign Court

To be fair, I could see Furious Focus being useful if you're going for the Vital Strike route and focusing on "one big attack", since VS can combine nicely with Power Attack. Agreed it's not optimal, but it's one edge-case for it.

An attack that misses does zero damage and really hurts DPR in a bad way. I'd say Furious Focus is in that sense more scaling than a feat like Weapon Focus.

Naturally we'll all be singing a different optimization tune when ACG hits next month...

@OP:

You said you're doing an Intimidate build. You might want to look at the Antagonize feat. It forces an enemy to attack you based on an Intimidate check. Quite useful as a Taunt for attacking. Be careful since many things are immune to it (undead, those that can't hear you, oozes, low INT creatures like animals, plants, etc.) It's also a standard action, but it has no theoretical range and works without line of effect. So you can use it while blinded or incapacitated, in principle. Keeps the fire off your buddies in bad situations, and taunting people isn't against the Paladin Code of Conduct apparently...


The table for average monster stats can also be found here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html

However, it is worth noting that a "typical" encounter in most games is probably APL+1 or +2. An encounter that has a CR equal to APL is probably one you can roll over pretty easily. Also remember that a party with more than 4 players has a higher APL. So you should probably optimize for enemies one or two CR points above your level.

Peet

The Exchange

Peet wrote:

The table for average monster stats can also be found here:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html

However, it is worth noting that a "typical" encounter in most games is probably APL+1 or +2. An encounter that has a CR equal to APL is probably one you can roll over pretty easily. Also remember that a party with more than 4 players has a higher APL. So you should probably optimize for enemies one or two CR points above your level.

Peet

CR is basically just a tool for determining the percentage of resources you should use to succeed at an encounter. An equal CR encounter should use 25% of the party's resources. A CR +4 should use 90% of the party's resources, and thus SHOULD be the hardest fight you ever have.

As you can see from my math above, even a level 16 paladin when adding just two EXTREMELY reliable modifiers (flank and haste) will hit the average AC of a CR +4 on a 3. That means without added bonuses from other means (bard song, bless, etc.) still makes weapon focus the hands down winner.

I mean, if you REALLY want, we can get into some serious game design mathematics, but your average player just really won't follow along. That's not even stopping to consider that people who believe furious focus is useful are far below the "average player", so they DEFINITELY won't follow along.

*EDIT* Actually, I didn't even bother to take into consideration divine favor, which is a paladin staple spell. At level 16 that gives a +3, and means that the paladin doesn't even have to rely on teammates to hit on a 2 against a CR+4.

The Exchange

TriOmegaZero wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
You're assuming I had no allies to roll for it though, which would be false. We had a bard for social interactions and the rest of the party was consistently had above levels skill bonuses in perception. I wasnt going to waste points to get it for myself. Because if perception is the most rolled skill in the game(which it probably is) someone else is going to focus on it. you dont need every party member focusing on it though, thats a waste of resources.

Until it's YOU that need to roll it to avoid being surprised or some other horrible consequence. It doesn't matter what your friends bonuses are when the GM tells YOU to roll it, not them.

Maybe that doesn't happen in your playstyle, but it does in mine.

I think we all agree that perception is a great skill (and anyone who pays attention knows that it's the most used skill in the game; followed closely by diplomacy). However, it's not a class skill for a paladin, wisdom is the only major dump stat for a paladin (you can dump int, but it's a true trade-off), and depending on your party composition sometimes you just WANT to fail perception and sense motive on a paladin. All of these things add up to take all the air out of your argument.


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I would never take weapon focus except as a prerequisite for another feat. It's just... boring. I think you can get a lot more out of Noble Scion: War, Fey Foundling, Improved Initiative, of course Power Attack... Extra Lay on Hands is easily converted into more self healing and smites if you take Oath of Vengeance. Greater and Ultimate Mercy may not be the super optimal choice, but depending on party composition the free res may save your party a lot of grief and gold. And assuming you're going for the intimidate build, cornugon smash is an absolute must as well, get ASAP.

My personal suggestion for an intimidate build is a 2 level dip into Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier, with the Gendarme archetype. You get Power Attack and Dazzling Display as bonus feats, cutting out the Weapon Focus prereq entirely. That's basically 3 feats in two levels, and moreover, you can use dazzling display as a standard action. Being able to move and dazzle is a huge deal to nab as many enemies as possible with it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Demoyn wrote:
I think we all agree that perception is a great skill (and anyone who pays attention knows that it's the most used skill in the game; followed closely by diplomacy). However, it's not a class skill for a paladin, wisdom is the only major dump stat for a paladin (you can dump int, but it's a true trade-off), and depending on your party composition sometimes you just WANT to fail perception and sense motive on a paladin. All of these things add up to take all the air out of your argument.

Only remotely. I don't dump stats. Perception and sense motive are important enough in the games I play that a negative modifier on any character is a bad thing. The class skill bonus is good if you want to counteract a dumped Wisdom, but it's much better to just have a positive modifier rather than invest skill ranks in it for those times you have to roll.

Sovereign Court

My 2 copper, only a few characters in the party need high Perception and Sense Motive. The group needs exactly one ear and one good set of eyes IMO. One good thing about min-maxing is that it allows you to rely more on the specialization of your allied players. This is in the end a roleplaying and team game, rather than a game about rolling dice at bad guys (at least... outside of Pathfinder Society :-p)

The Exchange

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
I think we all agree that perception is a great skill (and anyone who pays attention knows that it's the most used skill in the game; followed closely by diplomacy). However, it's not a class skill for a paladin, wisdom is the only major dump stat for a paladin (you can dump int, but it's a true trade-off), and depending on your party composition sometimes you just WANT to fail perception and sense motive on a paladin. All of these things add up to take all the air out of your argument.
Only remotely. I don't dump stats. Perception and sense motive are important enough in the games I play that a negative modifier on any character is a bad thing. The class skill bonus is good if you want to counteract a dumped Wisdom, but it's much better to just have a positive modifier rather than invest skill ranks in it for those times you have to roll.

That's cool for you and all. I absolutely want you to play however you're happy playing. The OP asked for advice on a character build, though, not for advice on a play style.

On top of that, you're still not giving respect to the fact that a typical party needs to be able to trick the paladin so they can accomplish goals without being hindered by his paladin code. That ALONE is reason to dump wisdom into the dirt.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Demoyn wrote:

That's cool for you and all. I absolutely want you to play however you're happy playing. The OP asked for advice on a character build, though, not for advice on a play style.

On top of that, you're still not giving respect to the fact that a typical party needs to be able to trick the paladin so they can accomplish goals without being hindered by his paladin code. That ALONE is reason to dump wisdom into the dirt.

I'm not speaking to the OP anymore. I'm replying to other people in the thread. And I give no respect to the idea that paladins need to be tricked by the party because I have never been in a party where such a thing was true.

The Exchange

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Demoyn wrote:

That's cool for you and all. I absolutely want you to play however you're happy playing. The OP asked for advice on a character build, though, not for advice on a play style.

On top of that, you're still not giving respect to the fact that a typical party needs to be able to trick the paladin so they can accomplish goals without being hindered by his paladin code. That ALONE is reason to dump wisdom into the dirt.

I'm not speaking to the OP anymore. I'm replying to other people in the thread. And I give no respect to the idea that paladins need to be tricked by the party because I have never been in a party where such a thing was true.

Odd. I've never seen a party where that WASN'T true. Maybe you should watch Gamers 2!


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Demoyn wrote:


I mean, if you REALLY want, we can get into some serious game design mathematics, but your average player just really won't follow along. That's not even stopping to consider that people who believe furious focus is useful are far below the "average player", so they DEFINITELY won't follow along.

Hey, Demoyn. OP here. I appreciate you dropping some serious knowledge here and you've given me quite a bit to consider. However, please turn down the sass. I'd like it if this thread were kept civil. Remarks like the one above are just making for some bad air in here.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
I think we all agree that perception is a great skill (and anyone who pays attention knows that it's the most used skill in the game; followed closely by diplomacy). However, it's not a class skill for a paladin, wisdom is the only major dump stat for a paladin (you can dump int, but it's a true trade-off), and depending on your party composition sometimes you just WANT to fail perception and sense motive on a paladin. All of these things add up to take all the air out of your argument.
Only remotely. I don't dump stats. Perception and sense motive are important enough in the games I play that a negative modifier on any character is a bad thing. The class skill bonus is good if you want to counteract a dumped Wisdom, but it's much better to just have a positive modifier rather than invest skill ranks in it for those times you have to roll.

OP here. An explanation on my dumping of Wisdom as it's come up quite a bit.

As we all know, Paladins can realistically only "dump" 2 stats. INT and WIS. Like you, I don't dump stats as a rule. Further, I've played enough to know how massively useful perception is.

I was really hoping I'd get a 25 point build to work with so that I wouldn't have to, but the GM gave me 20. With that many points, the only way I could make a character that was battle effective in my designated role as party tank and that was to take a hit to one of those stats. I decided on WIS because of two factors.

1) Fluff: It fit with my character concept which is that she was raised in a monastery. As such, she'd be relatively well read, but sheltered and thus a little ignorant of the ways of the outside world. Higher INT than WIS fits that idea pretty well.

2) Crunch: Simply put, I want some skill points. My build is going to focus on Knowledge (Religion), Intimidate (gained as a class skill via a trait) and Use Magic Device (also gained as a class skill via a trait). Thus, having 3 skill points per level works perfectly.

Now, if you're wondering why I want UMD as a class skill, here's the deal: When I get enough gold, I plan on buying a wand of shield for my character. 750 gp for 50 uses. This will be her "shield" in combat. Basically, she zaps herself for an AC boost, thereby mitigating the use of a two handed weapon.

Hopefully that clears things up. Again, I know I'm going to miss percepting worth a damn, but knowing my group (we've played a long time), I'm pretty sure I'll be able to deal with being the one with their character's head just a little in the clouds.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a few sniping posts and replies to them. Hey guys, if it's not advice, don't post it.

Grand Lodge

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Michael Smith 978 wrote:
Hopefully that clears things up. Again, I know I'm going to miss percepting worth a damn, but knowing my group (we've played a long time), I'm pretty sure I'll be able to deal with being the one with their character's head just a little in the clouds.

Hey, that's perfectly fine. You know your options and what the results of your choices may be. I have no problem with informed decisions, especially ones based on character concepts.

The Exchange

master_marshmallow wrote:

Wow don't sound pretentious or anything.

Furious Focus is an incredibly good feat and much better than Weapon Focus in the long run if you have to choose. +5 to your first attack in a round is not matched by any other feat in the game, math my friend, is not on your side.

Since a lot of posts in between were removed, I feel the need to debunk this incorrect statement in case anyone reads this thread in the future. I proved through math that furious focus offers a whopping 0% increase to a character (except for an extremely marginal bonus at levels 4 and 5). It's literally a useless feat. Don't take it.


Demoyn wrote:


On top of that, you're still not giving respect to the fact that a typical party needs to be able to trick the paladin so they can accomplish goals without being hindered by his paladin code. That ALONE is reason to dump wisdom into the dirt.

"Typical" party? Nope, we don't play that way.


Michael Smith 978 wrote:


With that many points, the only way I could make a character that was battle effective in my designated role as party tank and that was to take a hit to one of those stats.

Here's your build:

STR- 16 (14+2 human)
DEX- 10
CON- 15
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16

Simple, that 15 in CON is useless. Take those two points, and you can have your WIS back to 10.

The Exchange

So you've NEVER had a rogue, or a sorcerer with bluff, or a barbarian that uses intimidate (torture) as a means to extract information from prisoners, or a diviner that figures out the enemy before you have the proof to break into his house, or..... any NUMBER of other prototypical character concepts that don't mesh with a paladin's code? Congratulations. You have an atypical gaming group. That makes your statement completely unhelpful for a vast majority of gaming groups, and downright offensive for a PFS discussion.


Demoyn wrote:

So you've NEVER had a rogue, or a sorcerer with bluff, or a barbarian that uses intimidate (torture) as a means to extract information from prisoners, or a diviner that figures out the enemy before you have the proof to break into his house, or..... any NUMBER of other prototypical character concepts that don't mesh with a paladin's code? Congratulations. You have an atypical gaming group. That makes your statement completely unhelpful for a vast majority of gaming groups, and downright offensive for a PFS discussion.

Rogues are fine, Bards can bluff and lie all they want to (But my Paladin can't), Intimidate is not an issue until you actually start torturing (which is Evil), and Divination spells are certainly no issue.

And, your last statement is rather egocentric.

So, let me tell you this (other than a couple of one shots where we actually had a evil guy in the party with a paladin for a quick one day quest) no, not in my forty years of gaming has the party had to conceal things from the Paladin. And that's been with dozens of groups, not just one. And TOZ is a very experienced gamer, who is one of the most respected posters on this board (altho sure, we disagree sometimes). So there's two of us- who is "atypical" then? "Vast Majority"? Really?


Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Hey all. Tis me, he who asked about dodge on a paladin (I've settled on "no" for that one). I have another question: Is Weapon Focus (greatsword in this case) worth taking? Here's my initial stat block at level 1 (20 pt build).

STR- 16 (14+2 human)
DEX- 10
CON- 15
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16

Feats- Fey Foundling, Power Attack

Base Attack- 4 (+1 class, +3 STR)

Yes, I know that this isn't min/max'ed. Yes, I know I could pick up another 2 attribute points using the Dual Talent alternate race feature. I may in the end go that way, but am leaning heavily against it at this point because I want three skills built up over the course of the build (initimidate, knowledge (religion), use magic device).

Alright, given all of that, should I consider taking weapon focus at some point, and if so, should I do it at level one in place of Power Attack? I'm not really sold on Weapon Focus, but then again, +1 never hurts to have.

Some feats I'm looking at down the road (some I'm more solid about than others:

Furious Focus
Extra Lay On Hands
Greater Mercy
Cornugon Smash (I'm making an intimidate build)
Intimidating Prowess (see above)
Cleave
Great Cleave
Toughness
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
-Step Up Chain
-Improved Crit chain

Dual Talented isn't worth giving up a feat and skill point ever level for +1 stat bonus.

As for Weapon Focus, I never take weapon focus unless it's prereq for other feats like Weapon Specialization or Dazzling Display. Since you have Dazzling Display listed you need Weapon focus so pick up Weapon focus sometime prior to that feat. Go with Power Attack, Furious Focus at first level. That's when you get the most bang for you buck out it.

Grand Lodge

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DrDeth wrote:
And TOZ is a very experienced gamer, who is one of the most respected posters on this board (altho sure, we disagree sometimes).

For what it's worth, I don't mean any disrespect to you. You're just among the few people that I try to avoid arguing with, because it tends to bring the forums down more than it helps anything. :) Like SKR and others we could totally hang out at PaizoCon or elsewhere no problem.


Falchion = Greatsword DPR at +19 damage and Falchion > Greatsword at +20 damage if you have a keen weapon.

Without a keen Weapon Falchion = Greatsword at 39 damage and Falchion > Greatsword at +40 damage.

However the Nodachi is > Falchion unless enlarged or vital striking.

Even at +60 damage however the DPR difference is 3.895 between Falchion and Greatsword so *Shrug* pick whichever.

Basically You want to wield two handed a Falchion, Greatsword, Falcata, or Nodachi if you go purely by the numbers and Falcata ends up best.

Yet again however it is only an improvement of 4.8925 DPR at most at +60 damage.

So in my opinion I would not burn the feat and would just pick Greatsword, Nodachi, or Falchion as you prefer.

Silver Crusade

Demoyn wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Demoyn wrote:

That's cool for you and all. I absolutely want you to play however you're happy playing. The OP asked for advice on a character build, though, not for advice on a play style.

On top of that, you're still not giving respect to the fact that a typical party needs to be able to trick the paladin so they can accomplish goals without being hindered by his paladin code. That ALONE is reason to dump wisdom into the dirt.

I'm not speaking to the OP anymore. I'm replying to other people in the thread. And I give no respect to the idea that paladins need to be tricked by the party because I have never been in a party where such a thing was true.
Odd. I've never seen a party where that WASN'T true. Maybe you should watch Gamers 2!

So let me get this straight. Your assumption about how paladins MUST be played is based on jokes from a movie that makes fun of bad gamer stereotypes??? Did you miss the part where the whole thing is making fun of people who play paladins badly? Just like the sorceress is a joke on guys who play female characters badly, the bard makes fun of people thinking bards are useless, etc. That's the whole point of the movie.

Here are some guides that talk about paladin personalities and how to play them, all of which dismiss the "lawful stupid" stereotype as annoying and unnecessary:

Bodhi's Guide (see first two pages)
Thallin's Guide
An entire guide on nothing but paladin's codes (interesting, if long winded)

And for truly terrific examples of paladins, how to play (and not play) them well with different personalities, check out The Order of The Stick, which deals with the topic wonderfully. Keep going through the entire thing, at least until the storylines with the paladins end (somewhere around page 700, IIRC). And once again, much humor is found in ripping the "lawful stupid" stereotype to shreds, while in this case, they simultaneously present examples of other paladins with varying and interesting personalities who aren't like that.

And after all that, I think I'll save my mechanical questions/comments for another post.


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DrDeth wrote:

Don't dump wisdom. You will rue that over and over.

Start with Fey Foundling, Power Attack.

The problem with taking weapon focus falchion, is what happens if you find a Holy Greatsword?

Extra lay on hands is good.

Then see how the campaign goes.

See- what happens if you find you need to give more healing? Or you find a cool weapon or shield? or there's lost of touch attacks (then Dodge looks good), etc.

Every table is different.

Paladin's dump stat is Wisdom. They have a Good Wil save and Divine Grace at 2nd level. At an 8 he have a +5 will save at 2nd level. That's not too shabby for 2nd level and it just goes up from there. I'd be more worried about the 10 dex and poor reflex save.

The Exchange

Fromper wrote:


So let me get this straight. Your assumption about how paladins MUST be played is based on jokes from a movie that makes fun of bad gamer stereotypes??? Did you miss the part where the whole thing is making fun of people who play paladins badly? Just like the sorceress is a joke on guys who play female characters badly, the bard makes fun of people thinking bards are useless, etc. That's the whole point of the movie.

Who said anything about how paladins MUST be played? I said their code restricts the party almost as much as it does them and sometimes that clashes with other party members. Nothing more, nothing less.

The thing you need to understand is that stereotypes exist for a reason. Yes, there are exceptions to every stereotype. Those stereotypes may not even be true of the average person. EVERY STEREOTYPE EVER CONCEIVED, however, began with a basis in truth.

There are three people in a thread that don't match a stereotype. Yeah, that's definitely scientific proof that it doesn't exist...


voska66 wrote:


Paladin's dump stat is Wisdom. They have a Good Wil save and Divine Grace at 2nd level. At an 8 he have a +5 will save at 2nd level. That's not too shabby for 2nd level and it just goes up from there. I'd be more worried about the 10 dex and poor reflex save.

Meh. Paladins have plenty of HP. Failing a Reflex save just means burning a LOH. Failing a Will save means you either sit out the combat or attack your own party.

Until you make every Will save on a 2, there's no such thing as a "too high" Will save.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Demoyn wrote:


On top of that, you're still not giving respect to the fact that a typical party needs to be able to trick the paladin so they can accomplish goals without being hindered by his paladin code. That ALONE is reason to dump wisdom into the dirt.

I'm sorry but building your Paladins to be easily misled is just somehow wrong. Dumping wisdom does mean tanking your will save as well. BTW, as a DM, "leading the Paladin" out of the room is a gambit I take very strict controls with.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

The nice thing about Ultimate Mercy is no material component required.

Quote: You must provide the material component for raise dead or choose to accept 1 temporary negative level; this level automatically goes away after 24 hours, never becomes a permanent negative level, and cannot be overcome in any way except by waiting for the duration to expire.

But I suppose you are basiclly right

Silver Crusade

So I'm also building a two handed weapon paladin right now, for PFS. Since it's a similar build to the original poster, I hope he won't mind if I post my build here instead of starting a new thread.

I min/max stats a little more than the OP, even going so far as probably going angelkin aasimar *hangs head in shame*. I know, I know - I feel a little cheesy doing it. But it does fit well, both mechanically and for fluff. Here's what I'm thinking for stats:

Str: 18 (10, +2 racial)
Dex: 10
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha: 17 (7, +2 racial)

I figure I can boost cha to 18 at level 4, then focus on strength at 8 and 12, if I get that far.

My paladin will worship Shizuru, whose favored weapon is the katana, and I plan on sticking to that as my primary weapon. Katanas are only exotic if wielded one handed, so I can wield it two handed as a martial weapon, doing 1d8 with an 18-20 crit range. Not the most optimized weapon in the game, but close enough for me, and the fluff is perfect for a Tien worshiper of the goddess of swordfighting.

For feats, I'm thinking:

1 - Fey Foundling
3 - Power Attack
5 - Greater Mercy
7 - ???
9 - Improved Crit
11 - ???

Remember, PFS pretty much ends after level 11, so that's as far as I'm bothering to plan. Weapon Focus was also on my radar as a possibility at level 7, though I'll probably wait and see how often I'm missing at level 6 before making that call. I doubt if I'll feel the need for it. Extra Lay on Hands is a more likely possibility I'd consider.

I'm surprised to see everyone around here dismissing Greater Mercy. It's an extra d6 almost every time you Lay on Hands, with +2 from Fey Foundling when you use it on yourself. So every time I heal myself, it's an average of 5-6 more points healed (minimum 3). Given that I'll use a wand for Cure Light Wounds outside of combat, LoH will only be used during battle, when greater amounts of healing at once is more important than uses per day, which is why I prefer Greater Mercy ahead of Extra Lay on Hands.

I haven't decided on traits, either. I like skills, which is why I went with 12 int, and I'll definitely focus on Diplomacy the most, along with some ranks in Sense Motive and Knowledge (Religion). I'm looking at the alternate racial trait that gives +2 racial bonus on Sense Motive, so I should be able to overcome the wisdom penalty to be at least average at it. I'd consider taking traits to get Perception, Use Magic Device, and/or Knowledge (Planes) as class, though I don't know if any really fit the character for Perception, unfortunately. Or Anatomist, to get +1 to confirm crits.

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