Armor Class, or No Armor Class?


Advice

Silver Crusade

So, I play Society and was wondering how I should go about making an Order of the Flame Sword Saint Samurai.

I'm trying to decide between getting a high AC to try and counter the AC loss from glorious challenges, or if I should abandon AC in favor of high HP and focus on trying to get one-hit kills.

For this build, I prefer light or mithral medium armor so I can keep my speed, and I am fully willing to dip (maybe barbarian or bloodrager, or horse master feat cavalier).


I don't have specific build advice, but generally speaking, both damage AND HP are preferrable to AC (within reason), so you should probably spend your resources on getting those one-hit-kills.

Usually the best way to gain a cheap boost to defense in pathfinder is UMD -> wand of shield, which at most costs you a trait and a skill point. You then upgrade later on to things like mirror image/displacement/greater invisibility etc. This probably doesn't gel with your character concept, though..

Silver Crusade

I should probably post the concept this guy would have.

Order of the Flame lets him challenge again after he defeats his last challenge but for each consecutive challenge, he gains +2 in damage and -2 in AC. This stacks higher and higher, and a single challenge now lasts an entire battle. This character would save his challenge uses for fighting crowds and multiple enemies.

The sword saint's iaijutsu ability turns an undrawn katana into a single powerful full turn attack. That gets stronger as he levels up. The limit of once per challenged foe per challenge is gone since he ends and starts a new challenge over and over. It does cause an AC penalty but that penalty only lasts until his next turn.

If AC is going to have such huge penalties, then should I build around having no AC, or focus on building a huge AC that these penalties barely scratch?


Go with AC. Getting one hit killa is almost impossible past 3rd level unless you are fighting a CR 1 or 2 enemy.


wraithstrike wrote:
Go with AC. Getting one hit killa is almost impossible past 3rd level unless you are fighting a CR 1 or 2 enemy.

^ This, I am playing a 12th level ninja-archer with lots of buffs from my GM and I still only dish out ~80-100 in a single round (Thats a full-attack while flanking w/ sneak attack) CR 12 creatures have waaayyy more than 80-100 health, unless its a wizard/sorcerer

Silver Crusade

After looking up various creatures of various CR, I'll be going with an AC focus.

4 Spellscar Drifter Cavalier/1 Bloodrager (either Air Elemental or Fey)/15 Sword Saint Samurai Of The Flame

I just need to find a strong mount that can hold my character in mithral heavy armor, wear light barding, and can still carry a lot. If there was a way to get pounce, I wouldn't take the cavalier levels.


Go for equilibrium?

Silver Crusade

Equilibrium? Balance between high HP and high AC? Probably a given since heavy armor limits Dex so points should go to Con, not to sound rude.

Shadow Lodge

I don't believe you can multiclass Cavalier with Samurai, since they are Alternate classes.

Silver Crusade

Can you site that or link RAW?


Page 8, Ultimate combat wrote:


Alternate Classes
These are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. In this case, that’s the samurai and the ninja—specifically Asian-themed classes that have long and unique histories,
as well as great cultural cachet, but which are similar in concept to the established cavalier and rogue, respectively. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai
cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
The antipaladin from Advanced Player’s Guide is also an alternate class.

edit: ninja'd by one second

Shadow Lodge

Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.

EDIT:Ninja'd by 1 second.


Keep in mind you must spend a move action to re-sheathe your weapon if you want to perform repeated Iaijutsu Strikes. See if your GM would be willing to grant that the Quickdraw feat lets you sheathe as a free action as well as draw. Also, possibly look into pursuing the Cleaving Finish feat line. Since you'll be focusing on crowd control, it will allow you to soften up enemies around you while working on your primary target.

Silver Crusade

Ah, Thank you. I'll edit and change the classes then.

@Kazaan
Samurai, 3rd level, gets Weapon Expertise.

Can I sheath while moving?

EDIT: Or I can't edit that post...

6 Sohei Monk of Many Styles/14 Sword Saint Samurai of the Flame


By strict RAW, no. Weapon Expertise, among other things, mimics the Quick Draw feat which only makes drawing your weapon a free action. Sheathing remains a move action so it'd be by GM fiat that you can sheathe as a free action. You only get to draw as part of moving; nothing indicates you can sheathe as part of moving.

Silver Crusade

Maybe I should carry 13 zanbatos.


Have an unseen servant commanded to sheathe your weapon when you drop it.

Silver Crusade

Have an infinite unseen servant on hand? Actually, could a tiefling prehensile tail do it? My GM has ruled passing things to my tail is a free action. Sheathing it would be a swift action then.


Iajutsu strike is a nice option if you can't full-attack, but I wouldn't build around that ability. The flat bonuses from Challenge seem to favor multiple attacks over a single strong blow. Not sure it'll be worth sacrificing an iterative attack at levels 6-9, and at levels 10-20 you'll only want to use it when closing the distance between enemies.


swift action eats your immediate action. You need your swift/immediate to use Glorious Challenge.

Silver Crusade

Hmm... I see what you mean.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

You're going to burn AC like crazy and AC is a losing game if you can't keep it competitive anyways, so I'd focus on having lots of HP, look into items, feats, or abilities that give you alternate defenses like concealment, and crank your damage to 11 so you can keep moving and killing.


Kazaan wrote:
swift action eats your immediate action. You need your swift/immediate to use Glorious Challenge.

Well, an immediate action eats your swift, but same problem. :)


Ssalarn has the right of it, I think. You're not going to be able to invest enough into AC to make it matter with all the penalties you will get. You might want to invest in UMD so you can use wands for alternate means of avoiding attacks (IE Blur, Displacement, Invisibility, etc.).


If your AC is going to be in the pits anyway, why wouldn't you just drop it entirely, outside of the low hanging fruit options like armour? To a point, pathfinder is a game of specialisation, not generalisation. You're better off focusing on one thing extremely well than spreading yourself too thin. This is especially true because your build, even when heavily optimised, is not exactly a tremendous damage dealer. If you don't focus on that aspect you will likely be mediocre in everything.

You can compensate for low AC pretty easily anyway, via things like what arachnofiend and I suggested.

Silver Crusade

I'm thinking a mix of both. High AC for when I am not challenging and fighting small groups, and UMD defenses for when things heat up; cause... you know... Order of the Flame... ha.. ha.....

If I had to pick one, UMD Defenses does sound more appealing and cool.

"A lone samurai rises from the broken shadows of his fallen home, with nothing but the sword on his side and the vast army approaching. His shattered armor falls as he looks upon the ocean of souls before him, hissing, snarling, and thundering. He inhaled slowly, deciding that this would be either his final resting place, or his grandest moment. The darkness of his family's ruins could perhaps shelter him, to protect him, and to hide him from all of day's light as cowards live to see the next day and the day after that and the day that follows and so on. As the dawning sun rose to awaken the dogs of war, the samurai exhaled, and started his advance. He wanted glory."

-Zanbato13, Order of the Flame

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