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The Fighter Unchained! Let's get the Fighter into PF Unchained


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Pathfinder Unchained Discussion
For reasons stated in the above Product Discussion I have have been instructed to make this thread somewhere else on the Paizo Boards.

I will make three posts in a row for poll and for the meat of the thread, so please bear with me.

Favorite this post if you believe the Fighter is deserving of an "Unchained" variant.


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Favorite this post if you believe the Fighter should not get an Unchained variant.


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I think everyone who's been on these boards long enough knows the arguments for and against Fighters in pathfinder, so before anyone starts arguing that dead horse I want to say

Keep discussion of our current Pathfinder Fighter to a minimum. Discuss what you envision an Unchained Fighter would be like. Discuss what you think the term "Unchained" means. Discuss why you believe the Fighter doesn't need an unchained variant. Keep the central topic Pathfinder Unchained and how it should involve the Fighter and not "Fighter Problems," "Martial Problems," "Caster Supremecy," ect.

The question everyone should try to answer is

"What would unchain the Fighter?"

For me the answer is
-Give the Fighter more narrative power. More Skill Points and class features that effect more than combat. Good examples being Bardic Knowledge, Stern Gaze, Quarry.
-Make the Fighter less reliant on a weapon group. The Fighter should be a master of combat in general not mostly useless when not wielding his specific weapon.
-In order to do more than just hit things a Fighter needs Int. To not be a mongrel in a bar corner a fighter needs Cha. To not be dominated a Fighter needs lots of Wisdom. A class feature to alleviate some of these weaknesses would be wonderful.
-A good Will save. Who cares if it’s the first non-magic class to get one. Have this be the representation of their Bravery and training.
-The ability to use all armor effectively Armor training as is makes Heavy armor great, but is less great on medium and light armor. Maybe have those other armors give a separate bonus when worn? Like a small scaling bonus to reflex saves when in Light.
-The other classes have shown that they can “Hit the hardest” so maybe have the fighter do something else? Maybe have them be the most accurate, or give them additional attacks like a rapid shot for melee?


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I do think the Fighter needs an "unchained variation."

My idea of an unchained fighter:
-Unchained from specific weapons, and instead to weapon groups
-Unchained from permanent feat selection. Maybe an ability to trade out 1/4th of their level (minimum 1) combat feats every morning
-Unchained from bad saves
-Unchained from bad skill point progression


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-4 skills and a good Will save are no brainers.

-Special, thematic Fighter-y uses for certain skills.

For example:

Battle Sense (Ex): At 2nd level Fighter may use the Sense Motive skill in place of Knowledge skills to identify monsters.

Improved Battle Sense (Ex): At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter a Fighter can gain an additional piece of information in addition to what is normally provided by a successful Knowledge check. This may extend to knowledge of specific Feats the creature may possess.

(Benefit is threefold: Fighter saves on skills, Fighter is better at identifying specific monster weaknesses and strengths than most classes since the DC for additional info is decreased by 5 every 5 levels, and he can gain information others cannot).

-Getting rid of Weapon Training in its entirety. The Fighter should be master of all weapons, not just some. Replace it with really ANYTHING. Even a scaling +1 bonus to attack/damage with all weapons. Wouldn't be too much, when you look at the fact that Rage is basically that, plus extras.

-In keeping with the theme of versatility, allow the Fighter to transfer magic item abilities to other weapons temporarily. Why? Because getting a +1 hit/damage with all weapons won't help you when your Masterwork Longbow can't bypass the DR/Magic your +2 Longsword could.

-Give him Stalwart. Honestly, fits Fighter more than Inquisitor anyway. Unbreakable Fighter has it, and it's really cool.

-Make his Feats more modular. If he could "prepare" his Bonus Feats every day, even "leaving slots open" much like a prepared caster he'd exemplify the theme of martial mastery he SHOULD be exemplifying. Once prepared, they're locked until the next morning, but he has the option to tailor his Feats to specific challenges they'll face that day, becoming an archer one day, a Reach Fighter the next...even on the fly, given a full round action to fill one of his empty Feat slots for a specific encounter (or a minute if that's too much, though I don't think it is. Even a Standard would be fairly reasonable).

Invisible enemies? Fog? Grab Blind Fight on the fly. Need some Reach? Lunge is right there for you. Hell, need a bit of an extra boost to saves? Grab Iron Will/Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes.

-Which brings me to the last one...don't limit his Bonus Feats to Combat Feats. I think the Bonus Feats idea is a sound one, but limiting him to a certain kind of Feats doesn't mesh with a lot of stuff, and combined with the above would make a much more playable Fighter replacement.


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So Rynjin, it sounds like you want to make the fighter the "martial wizard" while the Barbarian is the "Martial Sorcerer." I like that idea.

Fighters should be the most versatile of all martials anyway.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

"peaks head up"

I actually don't think the fighter needs a big enough boost to rewrite from scratch.

I do agree on the skill points problem.

Honestly I think generally changing how combat works so that fighters can be more mobile without losing full attack. That could be built into the fighter as a class, or just become the result of a change to combat rules, either of which could be in the PU book.

I do hope that if a new version of the fighter makes the book (which also wouldn't distress me unduly), that they keep the new design simple. That the fighter lacks a lot of fidgety bits (unlike say the wizard, or some of the other classes) is a big plus for the class IMHO.

"ducks for cover"


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MMCJawa wrote:

"peaks head up"

I actually don't think the fighter needs a big enough boost to rewrite from scratch.

I do agree on the skill points problem.

Honestly I think generally changing how combat works so that fighters can be more mobile without losing full attack. That could be built into the fighter as a class, or just become the result of a change to combat rules, either of which could be in the PU book.

I do hope that if a new version of the fighter makes the book (which also wouldn't distress me unduly), that they keep the new design simple. That the fighter lacks a lot of fidgety bits (unlike say the wizard, or some of the other classes) is a big plus for the class IMHO.

"ducks for cover"

Hey man, you shared an opinion without calling the people who disagree with you dummies. No need to hide. Just favorite the second post in the thread to vote for "the fighter should not get an unchained variant."

I will disagree with you on saying the fighter is simple though. In my opinion, the number of feats a fighter receives complicates them greatly, as you have to put a lot of work into choosing feats once you get all the early feats out of the way.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

While I'm all for a fighter getting an unchained version, I simultaneously don't think it needs one. Mostly because as a whole, the fighter class is so diluted that it is irrelevant and unneeded now. Think of the archtypes of "the fighting man" and the overall spread of martial classes outside of the fighter class will get you covered. The sole exception is maybe the professional solider, however Barbarians, Rangers, Cavaliers, gunslingers and even paladins can as a group represent cogs in a large fighting force. For the fighter to truly survive it needs a thematic hook it currently does not have, and to be honest, that it never had.


9mm wrote:
While I'm all for a fighter getting an unchained version, I simultaneously don't think it needs one. Mostly because as a whole, the fighter class is so diluted that it is irrelevant and unneeded now. Think of the archtypes of "the fighting man" and the overall spread of martial classes outside of the fighter class will get you covered. The sole exception is maybe the professional solider, however Barbarians, Rangers, Cavaliers, gunslingers and even paladins can as a group represent cogs in a large fighting force. For the fighter to truly survive it needs a thematic hook it currently does not have, and to be honest, that it never had.

While I agree with you in that the current fighter does not bring anything really new to the table, I do think that if the theoretical unchained fighter focused on being the "versatile and adapting" fighter, then it could have a new roll that has never been seen in Pathfinder. It would have to be focused on adaptability, being even better than the ACG Brawler. Something like Rynjin's suggestion for bonus feats would probably be best for this purpose.


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9mm wrote:
While I'm all for a fighter getting an unchained version, I simultaneously don't think it needs one. Mostly because as a whole, the fighter class is so diluted that it is irrelevant and unneeded now. Think of the archtypes of "the fighting man" and the overall spread of martial classes outside of the fighter class will get you covered. The sole exception is maybe the professional solider, however Barbarians, Rangers, Cavaliers, gunslingers and even paladins can as a group represent cogs in a large fighting force. For the fighter to truly survive it needs a thematic hook it currently does not have, and to be honest, that it never had.

My personal take on the meaning of Unchained is

"Unaffected by the biases leftover from 3.0, 3.5, and 3.P"
If a Fighter got Unchained I would expect their to be real flavor and some real choices. They could actually give it a real thematic hook.


I agree that the Fighter should get another look-over, as it's one of the three classes--Fighter, Monk, and Rogue--that seem to have the most problems (at least as far as feedback goes) in the game. My own slowly-coming-together homebrew class to replace the Fighter is a versatile warrior who's skilled in combat as a whole--not focused on a single weapon, not focused on a single style. That's what the Fighter should be--a versatile warrior, a master of combat.

I also think that the flavor of the Fighter needs to be decided on if the class gets an update. Right now, it's hard to explain what a Fighter is beyond "You're good with a weapon"--and as people have pointed out time and time again, the Fighter really isn't the best with a sword/axe/bow/what-have-you.

To that end, I think the Fighter should be the true "master" of the art of combat. Barbarians are the ones who hit really hard. Monks are the disciplined masters of unarmed fighting. Fighters are the most skilled warriors. They aren't known for smashing through the wall with a hammer, but maybe they're the extraordinary swordsman who can slice something in half so fine that it can be put back together again. They're the archer who can put an arrow in the dragon's weak spot from a hundred paces, the knife fighter who's forgotten more ways to use that dagger than most folks ever learn (although the rogue should ideally also be able to do this pretty well), the hammer-wielder who can find just the right spot to crack that diamond into a million pieces.

The Fighter should be the go-to when it comes not to dealing the most raw damage, or being a general survivalist, but being unparalleled in the skillful side of martial art. It may be too much to ask that they have options that can make any combat style useful, but I think that's what they should really do. You wanna play a veteran of a hundred fights who's come through it all with nothing but a scratched suit of studded leather and a single longsword? You want to be the crossbowman who nods at the archers' strength, but can send their bolt truer at fantastic distances? You want to play a rough-and-tubmle knight who wears full plate and prefers to hunt monsters with his gauntlets? You should be able to play a Fighter and be any of those, and more.


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I think the archetypes have the right of it and it goes along with what Loup said. If the fighter is supposed to use a certain weapon he should be able to use it better and differently than other classes.

Much like some archetypes already have.

Two Weapon Warrior- Attack with both weapons on standard attacks and AoO's.

Dragoon-Spinning Lance, Able to hit adjacent squares with a lance.

Tower Shield Specialist- What penalties?

Roughrider- I don't believe in not charging.

Phalanx fighter- One handed reach polearms without the cheesy small weapon.

Point is it looks like they found what they wanted to do so maybe they should just expand on that idea.


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Talented Fighter?


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- I'd go with Good Fort and Reflex (Fighters are supposed to be paragons of physical combat, after all).

- 4 skill points per level is cool, although I'd not be against it getting 6. All Fighters have is mundane abilities, after all, they should be really good at it. Add Acrobatics, Heal and Perception to their list of class skills.

- Give Fighters an ability to bypass some feat prerequisites. e.g.: Add their Fighter level to their Int/Wis/Cha score for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites for Combat Feats.

- In fact, remove Int 13 and Combat Expertise from the least of prerequisites of feats that have nothing to do with either of them. Stop adding prerequisites just because of a feat's name!

- Bravery should apply against mind-control and possession effects, and at some point, Fighters should become immune to Fear, Fatigue and Exhaustion.

- Weapon Training should provide the same bonus to all weapon groups, instead of giving smaller and smaller bonus. Fighters should also get Martial Versatility/Mastery for free at some point.

- Mobility is an issue for all martials. Every class should be able to move and still be effective, so I'd rather this fix wasn't class specific. That said, at 20th level, Fighters should be able to full attack as a standard action.

- Feat Chains should be mostly gone. Most of them do nothing but harm the game balance. They stop marital classes from doing anything other than full attacking and rob Fighters of their main class feature.

- Create more feats that are actually useful and not locked behind an insurmountable wall of awful prerequisites. Make them do something other than increase DPR too. Weapon Focus/Specialization is extremely boring! Give us more feats like Lunge and Cornugon Smash, useful and interesting.


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Personally I'd prefer to see either all good saves or Fort+Will. Paizo has never made a non-magic class with a good will save and I think the Fighter should be the first. They should be strong at will saves due to their force of will as manly men who don't rely on any cheap tricks in combat, just good ole fashioned butt kicking.


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Caedwyr wrote:
Talented Fighter?

You know, the Talented Fighter does rock. Where I'd normally say "hey play this talented fighter instead," that won't help people who's GMs hate 3rd party products, or people in PFS. Also, if Paizo truly unchains the fighter from any 3.5 influences, it could end up being a totally new and interesting class that nobody could expect and that can't be emulated by the talented fighter.


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One thing I'd love Fighters to get, is the following:

Weapon training grants proficiency with all weapons in the group the fighter is not already proficient with. In addition, feats that apply to a weapon in the chosen Weapon Group now apply to all weapons in the group. This in addition to the regular benefits of Weapon Training.

I also have an idea about "Martial Masteries", special features the Fighter would get to choose from a list at every four levels, including but not limited to (this are rough sketches, prone to revision, but offer a gist of the idea):

Forge Master: The Fighter is not only a master of wielding weapons and armor, but also a master at their fabrication. He gains Craft Magic arms and Armor as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerrequisites. For the purposes of this feat, treat the Fighter's BAB as his caster level. Choose Craft (Weaponsmith), Craft (Bowyer), or Craft (Armorsmith). The Fighter raises his ranks in the skill to a value equal to his Fighter level, and he may use his Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution modifier in place of his Intelligence modifier for such skill. At level 10 and 15, he may choose another of the skills listed. You must be level 5 before picking this Martial Mastery.

Cavalry Master: The Fighter has mastered the intricacies of mounted combat. He gains a Mount (equal to the Cavalier Feature), and his Fighter levels are treated as Cavalier/Druid levels for the purposes of this mount's progression. He gains a bonus to his Ride Skill equal to half his Fighter level. He may gain a feat of his choice, as long as he meets the prerrequisites for it and one of the prerrequisites of the feat is Mounted Combat (or a feat that has Mounted Combat as a prerrequisite). The fighter must have the Mounted Combat feat to choose this Martial Mastery.

Physical Mastery: The Fighter's training has made him able to perform tasks of raw physicality unavailable to most people. He gains a bonus equal to half his BAB to Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim checks. At level 4, level 11, and level 18, choose one of the three mentioned skills: The Fighter increases his ranks in the skill to a value equal to his Fighter levels. In addition, he gains one of the following benefits, based on the chosen skill:

Acrobatics: The Fighter treats all falling damage as if all dice rolled 1. In addition, once per day, plus one additional time for each four levels in Fighter, he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when standing up from a prone position or moving through threatened squares. Finally, once per day at level 7 plus one additional time per day every four levels thereafter, the Fighter may perform an astounding leap, moving vertically a distance equal to his base movement. This allows him to charge vertically against flying targets.
Climb: The Fighter gains the Soften Fall ability (as the monk). In addition, he no longer loses his dexterity bonus to AC when climbing, and may move at half his speed (rather than one quarter). In addition, he may use Spider Climb once per day, plus an additional time for each four levels in Fighter, as an Extraordinary ability, using his Fighter levels as caster level.
Swim: The Fighter multiplies his Con value by 4 when determining how long he can hold his breath, and he adds his Fighter levels to his constitution value for this. The Fighter gains a Swim speed equal to one half his base speed; this does not allow him to breathe underwater. In addition, once per day, plus one additional time for every four fighter levels, the fighter may fight underwater as if he had the benefits of a Freedom of Movement spell, treating his Fighter levels as the caster level of the spell. This is an Extraordinary ability.

Army Mastery: The Fighter knows his way around an army camp. Increase his ranks in Proffesion (Soldier) to a value equal to his Fighter level. The Fighter gains a bonus equal to his Fighter level to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive rolls that involve treating with military, and may replace his charisma modifier with his Stregth, Dexterity, or Constitution modifier (player's choice) for these interactions. In addition, he gains Leadership as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerrequisites, and he may use his Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution modifiers in place of his Charisma modifier when determining his leadership score. A Fighter must be level 7 to choose this martial mastery.

Fearful Reputation: The Fighter's Mastery at arms is well known, and his reputation precedes him. The Fighter gains the Frightful Presence Extraordinary ability. He may use his Strength or Dexterity modifiers in place of his Charisma modifier in order to determine the ability's DC. In addition, the Fighter may use the Demoralize effect of the Intimidate skill once per round as a free action.

Magic Mastery: The Fighter has been on the receiving end of magical effects enough times to learn how to harden his body against this kind of assaults. Once per day, plus an additional time for every four Fighter levels, the Fighter can, as an Inmediate action, gain Spell Resistance value equal to 10 + his Fighter levels + his Constitution modifier against a single spell that targets him or includes him in its Area of Effect.

Contributor

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Devil's Advocate:

D&D Next's Fighter has a LOT of shiny, new abilities to it. For example, it can take an extra standard action to attack every turn. (Granted the attacking rolls are WAY different, but it goes to show the level of craziness they put into the class). They also added a "choose your own style" mechanic that works a little bit like a cavalier's order.

The resulting product does not feel like the Fighter class. The Fighter's customization should come from bonus feats, in my opinion. Honestly, I don't think the Fighter needs the massive overhaul that everyone claims it does. Its not on the same level of "Meh," as the rogue and it isn't overly complicated like the Monk.

In my opinion, the fighter only needs two things:

1) Weapon Training needs an overhaul. It should provide a +2 bonus baseline and scale all the way up to +5 so it is comparable to other attack roll / damage roll abilities. It should also allow the fighter to apply the benefits of his "select one weapon" feats to all weapons in a chosen weapon group. For example, if you have Weapon Focus and then take weapon training: heavy blades, your Weapon Focus would apply to every weapon in that group. This was a great idea from Mythic Adventures that really needs to be baseline.

2) Class Skill Ranks values need to be revisited. 2 skill ranks per level is as worthless as a d4 Hit Die was back in 3.5 Edition. In my opinion, skill ranks should scale at the same rate as Hit Dice, with 6 ranks per level being the lowest and 12 ranks per level being the highest.

Shadow Lodge

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IMO, if any improvement still "feels" like the current Fighter, I'd say it isn't enough of an improvement.


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Weapon training should start at first level and scale up every four or five levels.

Will save should be good as well. Anyone who has ever been through "fighting training" knows that willpower is as important is plain old toughness. Maybe even more so.

Feats, even if only for the fighter, should automatically scale with BAB/level I.e. Improved sunder automatically becomes greater sunder @ 6th.

Possibly combat maneuvers could also get a treatment similar to weapon training/grouping. I fighter could pick the "power attack group."

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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The tricky thing with redesigning the fighter is identifying its niche, both thematically and as a mechanics engine. Those two different roles inform a lot of the present fighter's abilities and its weaknesses.

I'm going to be setting aside archetypes for now, as I want to talk about the base class and not modifications.

Thematically, the fighter is your trained warrior type. He doesn't have a bunch of wilderness stuff, he doesn't lose control when fighting, he doesn't necessarily fight from horseback or have a bunch of leadership stuff. He can be a mercenary, an army veteran, a trained duelist, or so forth. He gets to be very good with weapons and armor.

Mechanically, the fighter should fight well with weapons and armor, I think we can all agree there. Where we may disagree is that I think a fighter should be simple to run. There exists a mechanical niche for the player that really does just want to do the same thing every round. Some players don't want to track per day uses of things, or spells, or rounds of rage, or a bunch of special abilities. They just want to hit things for big numbers. There should be an option for people who want to play that way.

Now we can argue whether the current fighter fulfills that particular niche. But the niche exists and there should be a class that allows that style of play. Personally I hate some of the mechanics around rage, and thus only rarely play a class that has it - but I don't insist that the barbarian needs a rewrite to accommodate my playstyle quirk.

The problem is that a class that is simple to play is never going to offer a blizzard of options each round. So if our theoretical Unleashed fighter has a bunch of interesting combat options, he will suddenly appeal least to the type of player that likes the old fighter, as well as likely drawing all the same ire that Book of Nine Swords did. Rational objections or not, the amount of vitriol spent over that book does tell us something about the player base.

Now to look at the current fighter and some of the thing that people find objectionable:

2 skill points per level: I have no issue with this. You don't have to max skills for them to be useful. 1 rank each in climb and swim, for example, is often plenty for an entire campaign. Perception is nice but not as crucial as some people seem to think. Fewer overall skills in PF means that 2 sp classes are better off than they were in 3.5.

Weapon training: People never seem to mention that you get multiple groups with this. I think the idea of expanding it is good though.

Armor training: This pretty much makes fighters top tier when it comes to using armor. The major problem I see people having with armor training is that most archetypes lose it.

Saves: Back in 1e, fighters started with the worst saves but had the fastest progression. I think some of the problem here is that we're locked into only two save categories. What about a medium category? What about starting at 0 but going up quickly? How about just giving all fighters Iron Will as a bonus feat(they are going to take it anyway)?

Bonus Feats: Here we go, the real meat of the fighter class. There are a couple problems with this system. One, the major class feature of a fighter is just something everybody gets, but more of it. Two, this can make planning and leveling a fighter a bit complicated, which inhibits the player who wants a simple class. I think a two part solution would work here. One, more exclusive fighter feats. Make them real fighter exclusives, designed so that magi and cavaliers would have a very hard time getting into them. Have them lie at the end of long feat chains or also require weapon training, for example. These feats should let the fighter do amazing things. Why can't the ability of gloves of dueling just be a fighter feat? Second, provide some prebuilt "trees" of feats so that a player that wants to can just choose a template like "two handed fighter" or "sword and board" and not have to worry about plotting out their character and level ups, they just get what their chosen template gives them.

Whew that got wordy.


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It's not really within the scope of the project but I've never liked the full attack as is. When you get to higher levels playing a melee fighter feels like a Clix game where you can only move or attack every round while barbarians and druids are pouncing across the map.


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@Ryric Every unchained version is optional they are not replacement. Your simple fighter can still be played at your table, while others who like a different take on the fighter can enjoy the unchained version of the class at their own tables.


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Unchaining Fighter should mean , IMHO:
- removing dependency on magic items, for example: ability to turn nonmagic weapons into temporarily magical ones (ditto for armors)
- ability to recover from nasty magic and nonmagic effects
- power to circumvent magic-only advantages (invisibility is 2nd level spell only, but it is just as effective against 20th level fighter)
- skill points
- support for dexterity and constitution based viable builds (for example, ability to base attack and damage bonuses on these statistics)
- support for gaining tactical advantage through use of intelligence and charisma based action rolls
- more defensive and offensive options... that are available at lower levels than critical mastery, and that stay relevant longer than combat maneuvers

Regards,
Ruemere

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I'm all for those changes.

If Wizards are buffed as well. :)


Something I've mused about with members of my group at one point or another was a possible scaling Fighter class feature called Always Prepared. This ability would pretty much be Fighter Talents, and the key one that I use as an example is called Turpentine.

Turpentine (Ex): Fire has been mankind's friend for thousands of years. In recognition of this relationship, the fighter keeps a supply of thick flammable fluid on hand. X times per day, as a swift action, a fighter may douse a melee weapon in this flammable material and ignite it. An ignited weapon deals an additional 1d6 points of fire damage per attack and remains lit for 1 minute. This damage increases by 1d6at Xth level and every X levels thereafter.

A Fighter is a prepared combatant, and a prepared combatant should not be without the ability to deal elemental damage. This is just an example of what Always Prepared would entail, but would set a good baseline for what it should do. An Unchained Fighter should be able to reach at least that level of functionality.

edit: Added a last line.


I must say again to follow the rules of the thread.

Please do keep comparisons to other classes to a minimum. Please do not bring up spell casters except in relation to how an Unchained Fighter would fight them.

Please do not make posts that are purely inflammatory. If you see an inflamatory post then flag it and do not respond.


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Current proficiency, plus one weapon group of choice.

4 Skills per level, and 2 class skills of player choice.

Bravery applies to all Will Saves.

Bonus Feats are not limited to combat feats, and the Manual of War becomes a class feature.


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My request for all of the new classes in Pathfinder Unchained is that they all be able to contribute meaningfully in all areas of the game at all levels.

This would include

Social
Combat
Logistics/Travel
Investigation/Exploration

Obviously, some classes will be designed to be better in some areas than others, but it would be very nice to allow players to have a chance to participate (be the main person or be a helper) in overcoming challenges in all areas and not just be a load for their other party members to carry.

As I mentioned above, it is also important to make sure to extend the ability to participate across the entire level range and not just a narrow low-level range. Look for the challenges the players can be expected to encounter in each level range and then come up with thematically appropriate ways for each class to contribute to solving those problems. Otherwise, if you design the class first then every problem is going to end up looking like a nail and you may end up creating something that will result in the players sitting around waiting for a chance to contribute for whole swaths of the game.


I think really unchaining would mean giving up the idea of feat-monkey and weapon specialist. So, I would drop the feats per level for something a bit more wide reaching.

1st Level: Weapon Familiarity: By familiarizing yourself with a weapon for 1 minute, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with that weapon. You can do this for multiple weapons. This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until you rest for 8 hours. For purposes of meeting prerequisites, you have weapon focus(all).

2nd Level: Armor Familiarity: By Familiarizing yourself with armors and shields, you receive a +1 bonus to AC when wearing those armors and shields. This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until you rest for 8 hours.

3rd Level: Jack of all Weapons: You count as proficient with a weapon you are "Familiarized" with. For purposes of meeting prerequisites, you have weapon proficiency(all).

4th Level: Weapon Specialist: Weapons you have Weapon Familiarity with deal an additional +2 damage. For purposes of meeting prerequisites, you have weapon specialization(all)

5th Level: Feat reacher: For purposes of meeting feat prerequisites, your stats count as being 2 points higher.

That's just off the top of my head. Most of those abilities would probably have higher level buffed versions.

Edit: Thinking upon it, I would prefer for Weapon Specialist to offer a +1 per 2 fighter levels, starting at 2nd level. And for Weapon Specialist to offer a +1 with +1 per 5 fighter levels.


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Still thinking of ideas, but for now I think most people agree about two things.

1-4+Intellect modifier skill points, with a wider selection of skills; to this day I can find no explanation why the fighter does not have perception as a class skill. Guards, mercenaries, soldiers, bounty hunters, etc. all need to be perceptive of the people and area around them. If you are not perceptive in a battlefield you could end up dead, if you are not perceptive when guarding someone/something you could get a knife to the back or if you survive get fired. A fighter has always been presented as this combat expert...and I have yet to see one who survived without being wary and watchful of things around him.

2-Bravery needs to be replaced or it needs to apply to at least most of mind affecting effects. Its take nerves of steel and indomitable will to become a fighting man, to master weapons and armor and to train on an almost daily basis. This is doubly true for characters players make who are presented in the campaigns as extremely skilled and powerful individuals.


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If Unchained classes lost all their class features and the devs started anew then I'd be happy.

I would rather an entirely new and fresh take of an existing class than a "X class 2.0." Incidentally I believe the best way to unchain the fighter is to kill it and start over from square one like they're designing a new class.


4 skill points a level would be good, also they should get some extra class skills, namely Acrobatics. The fact that the professional soldier class from 3.5 lost the use of JUMP as a class skill is just freaking silly. What I'd like to see most, and what would benefit the fighter hugely, is actually a massive revamp of the feat system. There's just too many feats that are weak or stupid or in these long chains with nonsensical prereqs or a combination of these factors. Fix that and suddenly fighters become awesome. Unfortunately, I think that's too big a project for this particular hardcover in addition to everything else.


If we unchained the fighter from bonus combat feats then that wouldnt be a problem.


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ryric wrote:
So if our theoretical Unleashed fighter has a bunch of interesting combat options, he will suddenly appeal least to the type of player that likes the old fighter, as well as likely drawing all the same ire that Book of Nine Swords did. Rational objections or not, the amount of vitriol spent over that book does tell us something about the player base.

I wonder if their objections were to the principle that "Fighters should not have a bunch of interesting combat options". What I objected to were the mechanics and the aesthetic.

I like Paizo's Grit/Deeds mechanic a lot better than the clunky Maneuvers system (then again, I much prefer spell points to spell slots). It basically represents a Stamina bar, and in a good way. Whereas other classes have a large pool of spells/points that can only be replenished by eight hours of rest, your pool is being continually spent and replenished. It's a lot more intuitive, and less immersion-breaking, than being told "You can't use that power, because it's on cooldown until you drop from combat".

It can also serve to show the effects of morale: You have a set of abilities that are passive, or otherwise always apply, as long as you have at least one Grit point. In a near-death situation, you may use your "emergency" Deed to blow all remaining Grit to save your life, but you lose those abilities until you're not so shaken. So far in practice, Deeds like Cheat Death don't come in until a very high level, so most players will never ever spend their last Grit point. Deeds like that need to be made available (in weakened form, of course) at low levels and scale up from there.


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Not only that, but when people ask for interesting options they're asking for nothing more complicated than what a Barbarian, Magus, Bard, or Cavalier gets.

What would you rather have, Rage Powers or Bonus combat feats? I'd rather have rage powers because they are actually useful on a Power by Power basis as opposed to each combat feat being a build up to a small pay off. Bonus combat feats are the Primary "Class feature" that the Fighter needs to be unchained from.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Any Fighter rewrite that includes feats will be ineffective without having new 'feats/techniques/talents/whatever' for the Fighter and Fighter only to take. Otherwise, it's just a class that everyone can raid the best stuff of while keeping better stuff from their own class.

Fighters should get bonus damage at level 1. They are the ONLY martial class that does not have that option as a class feature.

==Aelryinth


Rynjin wrote:

-Getting rid of Weapon Training in its entirety. The Fighter should be master of all weapons, not just some. Replace it with really ANYTHING. Even a scaling +1 bonus to attack/damage with all weapons. Wouldn't be too much, when you look at the fact that Rage is basically that, plus extras.

-In keeping with the theme of versatility, allow the Fighter to transfer magic item abilities to other weapons temporarily. Why? Because getting a +1 hit/damage with all weapons won't help you when your Masterwork Longbow can't bypass the DR/Magic your +2 Longsword could.

-Give him Stalwart. Honestly, fits Fighter more than Inquisitor anyway. Unbreakable Fighter has it, and it's really cool.

-Make his Feats more modular. If he could "prepare" his Bonus Feats every day, even "leaving slots open" much like a prepared caster he'd exemplify the theme of martial mastery he SHOULD be exemplifying.

Oh yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I had suggested something along those lines in my post in the "fix the fighter" thread.

I kept Weapon Training, but it gave a flat bonus to all proficient weapon, but selecting a weapon group gave you some neat extras.


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Ok, you break into the Paizo HQ, and once in, place a few marks on Jason's computer, from there we can Edit File to slip in a new Fighter. Better yet, someone summon a data sprite, and have them camoflauge the new Fighter until right before it goes to the editors. They'll never see it coming.


Cheapy wrote:
Ok, you break into the Paizo HQ, and once in, place a few marks on Jason's computer, from there we can Edit File to slip in a new Fighter. Better yet, someone summon a data sprite, and have them camoflauge the new Fighter until right before it goes to the editors. They'll never see it coming.

Of course, a data sprite. No one would ever suspect someone using a mechanic from Shadowrun on a Paizo product.


The perceived lack of skills can be easily rectified by using your favoured class bonus for skill point and by taking an Int of 12. If you want more class skills, use one of the fighter's horde of feats to take the Abundant Traits feat for the appropriate class skills.

Being awesome at armour is already well covered by the Armour Training class ability.

Being a little more awesome at general weapon use? I agree with Eakratz above, start weapon training at 1st level, perhaps giving one more weapon group overall in a 20 level career.

Bravery is a tricky thing but I suggest instead giving a +1 to be applied to any save, scaling up as Bravery does. The fighter also has enough feats that they should make Iron Will a must take feat.


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Before arguments start, remember that this thread is not about the current Fighter, but an Unchained Fighter.


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Getting rid of the bonus feats would grant a ton of design space.


If any Paizo devs happen to be reading please do say hi even if you don't want to state an opinion. It's always nice knowing that feedback is being read and digested.


I'll list a number of ideas that I think would be cool on the Fighter. Any of these ideas would make him better, but if he got them all, he'd be too powerful.

1) Maneuver Styles: similar to ranger Combat Styles, but only pertaining to combat maneuvers. The Fighter gets to select a type of maneuver, and gains the feats for that maneuver as he goes up in levels. He gains the feats without meeting the pre-reqs and if other feats come out in splat books later, he's considered to meat all the pre-reqs of the feats he got, for the purpose of other feats.

For example, say he selects Improved Trip. If another feat comes out in a splat book, he's considered to have Combat Expertise and Int 13 for the purpose of selecting a Trip related feat.

It's possible that as he increases in level, he could select a second or even third Maneuver Style.

2) Increased movement based on his BAB. Like for every iterative attack he gains, he can take a free 5-ft step in addition to his normal movements. So a 20th level Fighter could take a total of four 5-ft steps. Possible even tie this into Armor Training in that he could take even more 5-ft steps in light/medium armor. At 20th level, he can take 4 steps in Heavy Armor, 5 steps in Medium Armor, and 6 steps in Light Armor.

This would make him much more mobile in combat, while also showing off his mastery of the battlefield.

3) If Weapon Training stays, I'd like to see it function at +1 to hit/+2 to damage so it stays more in line with other class' combat bonuses. I'd also like to see Weapon Training apply weapon specific feats to the entire weapon group.

4) Armor Training should get a boost, so that he is better protected by his armor, above and beyond that of just an increased dex bonus. So a scaling AC bonus, but only while in armor would be good.

Ideally, I'd like the Fighter to be a crazy in martial versatility, while also being good at offensive and having a strong defense. Barbarians and Paladins should keep their roll as damage kings, but they should also be more focused in what they can do in combat. Where the Fighter lacks in damage, he should excel in options. He should be able to use his weapons and armor in more ways than any other class. His armor should be like a second skin and his weapon just another limb for him.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hmm, two things I can think of:

-Something to be done with the disparity between full attack and standard attack. Casters are very good at mobility and often try their darned best to stay out of reach. Beyond that, swishing away all combat in one place can be boring, so something allowing the fighter to be a bit more mobile and still kick butt could be rewarding.

-Variable feats. Other classes can swap out bonus feats they get on a regular basis, so why not the fighter? One or more of the fighter's latest feats could be swapped out daily with some kind of training regimen. This would also let a fighter "test run" combat feats before selecting them permanently.


Lemmy wrote:

- I'd go with Good Fort and Reflex (Fighters are supposed to be paragons of physical combat, after all).

- 4 skill points per level is cool, although I'd not be against it getting 6. All Fighters have is mundane abilities, after all, they should be really good at it. Add Acrobatics, Heal and Perception to their list of class skills.

- Give Fighters an ability to bypass some feat prerequisites. e.g.: Add their Fighter level to their Int/Wis/Cha score for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites for Combat Feats.

- In fact, remove Int 13 and Combat Expertise from the least of prerequisites of feats that have nothing to do with either of them. Stop adding prerequisites just because of a feat's name!

- Bravery should apply against mind-control and possession effects, and at some point, Fighters should become immune to Fear, Fatigue and Exhaustion.

- Weapon Training should provide the same bonus to all weapon groups, instead of giving smaller and smaller bonus. Fighters should also get Martial Versatility/Mastery for free at some point.

- Mobility is an issue for all martials. Every class should be able to move and still be effective, so I'd rather this fix wasn't class specific. That said, at 20th level, Fighters should be able to full attack as a standard action.

- Feat Chains should be mostly gone. Most of them do nothing but harm the game balance. They stop marital classes from doing anything other than full attacking and rob Fighters of their main class feature.

- Create more feats that are actually useful and not locked behind an insurmountable wall of awful prerequisites. Make them do something other than increase DPR too. Weapon Focus/Specialization is extremely boring! Give us more feats like Lunge and Cornugon Smash, useful and interesting.

Goo post Lemmy. I agree with most but not all.

They are going to redesign some classes so I doubt the going to redesign feat chains.
4 skills per level is rock solid. Heal and acrobatics added sound obvious, but I’m not too sure of perception. I would rather have sense motive.
Good fort + reflex and immunity to fear. Immunity to fear could come as class feature around level 8 or as a fighter only feat. The fighter should be able to move and attack more than once a far earlier stage than 20. My suggestion is level 8 or even level 6. In fact a TWF fighter should be able to move and at last hit with both weapons at levels lower than 6. Perhaps at level 3 when it gets armor training and perhaps with a penalty, or at level 5 when it gets weapon training. Perhaps make it a standard action? A fighter should be able to swap feats more often and I think that at higher levels it should even be able to swap away some of its proficiencies.

I think the fundamental problem is that the fighter is supposed to be a mundane “do it yourself class” that is based on you building the character you want using feats and it’s class feature. The problem with the class is that it fails in this regard.

Some of the reasons for this are:

A) The building options are bad. A1) Not many options that are specific to only the fighter and A2) most options require that the fighter specializes and becomes a one trick pony.

B) The class is called the fighter and should be good at fighting, problem is even though he is good at it he isn’t even close at being the best. Even if he “only” wants to be “good enough” at it he needs to specialize and this hampers is options in branching out. If there is one class (besides the monk) that should be able to move and make multiple attacks it should be the fighter. This would also encourage more tactical strategies combats. The option now is only to stand still and full attack. Funny thing is that armor traing does improve he move, but the game mechanics don’t let him be a mobile fighter. There isn’t even a feat that let him move and make more than one attack. I think the fighter (and monk) at mid levels should be able move and attack more than once. Say level 8 or even earlier.

C) As a mundane class he is really awful at doing mundane stuff. Only 2 skills per level, very few class skills, only one good save and no class feature except bravery to improve his weak saves. Other classes got spells or range power or supernatural abilities that helps them with saves. I agree that fighter shouldn’t get good will saves, but there should be fighter only feats that that let fighter “buy” better saves. I had this idea of a feat called improved bravery that also added a bonus vs mind-control and possession and that granted the fighter immunity to fear at level 10. The skill selection and only 2 skills per level does nothing to help the fighter being good at mundane stuff. Nor does it help the class being a “DIY” class. I mean the fighter should at least be able to buy more skills using a feat.

D) Problems with feats: Not enough fighter only feats. Not enough fighter only fats that actually let the fighter do cool stuff. To may feat taxes and to many prereqs.

E) A class that have all class features tied to feats and fighting should be a class that is flexible, but the class isn’t flexible. This is especially a problem to new players that don’t plan ahead. The class doesn’t encourage an organic approach to playing and building your character! This is bad. I honestly think the fighter should be able to swap feats more often.

Shadow Lodge

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Gorbacz wrote:

I'm all for those changes.

If Wizards are buffed as well. :)

Cool.

At 20th level, wizards get a bonus hit point.


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Kthulhu wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I'm all for those changes.

If Wizards are buffed as well. :)

Cool.

At 20th level, wizards get a bonus hit point.

I think Wizards should get the Run feat at 20th level myself. I mean, a whole bonus feat! That's gotta be a buff right?

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