The Fighter Unchained! Let's get the Fighter into PF Unchained


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Sovereign Court

Martial Flexibility should be a fighter-only combat feat accessed via class feature by the Brawler.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Meh. Brawler should be a fighter archetype.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

Meh. Brawler should be a fighter archetype.

==Aelryinth

I'm not so fond of them either, but there's an MMA fan type dude in our group that's played three of those in a row now, so it does appeal to a certain demographics....

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Anybody can brawl.

Brawlers are more fun then fighters because of martial flexibility. If you made a UA spec fighter with martial flexibility, the brawler pretty much has nothing to go on.

Scaling UA damage for giving up heavier armor profs would be a reasonable swap out.

==Aelryinth

Dark Archive

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I personally think the fighter should be able to learn as many feats as a wizard automatically gets to learn spells a level.

Also, if you have high enough stats for the feats power attack, weapon finesse, and combat expertise(dropped this to ten) you get those as options available during your round without taking the feat. You are also considered to have the feat(s) for purposes of feats tied to those feats.

Fighter also gets class level added to acrobatics, climb, escape artist, intimidate, profession(sailor, soldier.etc), perception(also a class skill), ride, and swim. These count as ranks to qualify for feats and or any other abilities.

Instead of Bravery just give them a good will save. It's the same as changing it to a flat bonus to their Will save.

Sovereign Court

In my opinion, a fighter needs to be adaptable to every situation. If you've ever heard of Iron Heroes and its innovations for Low Magic Tactical Combat, that's the kind of feel you're looking for with a fighter. For instance, a fighter taking on a bunch of Orcs. He should be able to pull out a crossbow and skewer an Orc's face with a single blow. When the Orcs charge forward, pull out his longspear and pike one of the bastards through the chest. Then when the Orcs get close, pull out a sword and shield and hold the line against the green tide. Oh an Orc's greataxe breaks the sword you're wielding, well you take the broken end of the sword and shove it through is gullet then kick him backward with your right foot.

Fighters should also be masters of debilitating targets and drawing aggro. That hell demon melts your magical sword and you got no way to hurt it. Well it shouldn't prevent the fighter from climbing up the demon's body and punching it the eye, blinding it while your allies with the proper weapons take advantage of the distraction. In other words a fighter needs to be able to adapt to every situation. The Feat Chains and Archetypes streamline a fighter, when a fighter should be a master of war and weapons, the ultimate badass.


About 1-year old necro... Just enough to qualify for the zombie thread template.


I think it's a bit late to get the Fighter into Unchained.


Outside of homebrewing, that is :/ . TBH an unchained fighter would have been much more welcome than an unchained barbarian, maybe even the summoner.

To be honest, Unchained did have a lot of stuff for the fighters - combat stamina, variant skills, etc - but it was not meant to be. Was there ever a statement why there was no unchained fighter, by the way?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Because obviously the way to fix the fighter is just to fix a few feats and add a non-standard additional unsupported resource system. There, see, all better?

==Aelryinth


Well I'm sure there have been many, many, many ideas expressed to "fix" the fighter, but here is my two cents.

1. Allow all archetypes to gain weapon or armor focus in their particular specialization rather then removing it for said abilities. This allows your spear or longsword or two-weapon, etc specialist to gain extra hit and damage abilities with their weapon, which increases the base ability of the fighter which is to hit things and take hits.

2. Up the Will save of the fighter. Giving it two good saves won't lessen the value of other martial characters, since the ranger/paladin/barbarian/cavalier/ get better special abilities to compensate. (kind of in the cavalier's part). This helps against the enchantment/compulsion/etc issue we see all the time.

3. The healing surge ability mechanic from 5th and 4th Ed is another good idea. Since hp are a simulation of a person's physical toughness or luck to avoid, create a surge pool or healing ability that levels as the fighter does to allow him or her to regain lost hp.

4. Also following the pool idea, (since it seems to be the "new" limit special ability rule), create a inspiration pool that allows the fighter to gain extra feats or a reroll on an attack roll, etc. and/or maintains some constant abilities like grit or panache does for the gunslinger/swashbuckler/monk etc. This allows you to simulate special maneuvers without getting into anime territory or spellcasting simulation via Tome of Battle or Path of War that causes people to get a bad taste in their mouth.

5. Build an archetype similar to the qi-gong monk that allows the fighter to pick from a range of special abilities that tape into the pool above.


I'm really not the best at this,but here goes

For starters, bump skill points to 4+Int, and add skills like Acrobatics.
As for saves, I'm not sure. I feel like 2 good/1 bad wouldn't be out of line, but nothing really popped out at me
To get to the real meat and potatoes of it, I'd probably start with removing weapon Training, in favor of something like "Chosen Weapon" or "Favored Weapon". Starting at level 1, it'd grant a +2 to hit/damage, and increase at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. The main difference would be that you would be able to, with enough time (An hour?), change your favored weapon. You would be able to do this once a day at level 1, twice at 5, etc.
The second big idea I had was with weapon-specific feats. (Weapon Focus/Spec, Improved Crit, etc). At some level, the Unchained Fighter could maybe gain the ability to change the weapon to that of his favored weapon. I'm not sure when something like this would come online, or if there should be a limit on the number of feats you can swap a day, but I would say regardless of the limits it should take a full day to do so.
The third big idea/change would be to take Advanced Weapon/Armor training, and bake them right into the class. With the AWT, you could even take some of the unique abilities from archetypes of the original Fighter (Like Pole-arm Master's ability to attack adjacently) and place them in. These could be traded out too, at a rate of 1/day.
You'd still have your "main focus" which would be where your feats are spent, but it would allow you to switch between weapons somewhat effectively, and be the "Weapons Guy" to an extent


Maybe they should incorporate stamina tricks in this unchained fighter as class feature.


Lemmy wrote:

- I'd go with Good Fort and Reflex (Fighters are supposed to be paragons of physical combat, after all).

- 4 skill points per level is cool, although I'd not be against it getting 6. All Fighters have is mundane abilities, after all, they should be really good at it. Add Acrobatics, Heal and Perception to their list of class skills.

- Give Fighters an ability to bypass some feat prerequisites. e.g.: Add their Fighter level to their Int/Wis/Cha score for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites for Combat Feats.

- In fact, remove Int 13 and Combat Expertise from the least of prerequisites of feats that have nothing to do with either of them. Stop adding prerequisites just because of a feat's name!

- Bravery should apply against mind-control and possession effects, and at some point, Fighters should become immune to Fear, Fatigue and Exhaustion.

- Weapon Training should provide the same bonus to all weapon groups, instead of giving smaller and smaller bonus. Fighters should also get Martial Versatility/Mastery for free at some point.

- Mobility is an issue for all martials. Every class should be able to move and still be effective, so I'd rather this fix wasn't class specific. That said, at 20th level, Fighters should be able to full attack as a standard action.

- Feat Chains should be mostly gone. Most of them do nothing but harm the game balance. They stop marital classes from doing anything other than full attacking and rob Fighters of their main class feature.

- Create more feats that are actually useful and not locked behind an insurmountable wall of awful prerequisites. Make them do something other than increase DPR too. Weapon Focus/Specialization is extremely boring! Give us more feats like Lunge and Cornugon Smash, useful and interesting.

I think your the only one that I can completely agree with. I think the broadened bravery makes up for bad will save. archetypes could be used to give it a good will and replace bravery for the right flavor.


here is my personal low key ones
1. bump up their skill amounts by 2 so 4/per or 6/per for some archetypes
2. give them a pounce maneuver at an appropriate level.
3. This one is tricky the skill system needs to be improved a bit for higher levels to allow greater actions with skill check something like a 60 foot leap with a dc 30 and etc.
4. use the weapon and armor training stuff
5. I allow the master craftsman feat to be usable with just the craft skill no other item creation feats required. Example: So you have skill craft weapons and the master craftsman feat and you can use it to make all magic weapons (this is the only one I use for my games)

from another thread but seemed like the place to put it. I also like some of the ideas others have posted but ill get back to you guys on that.


Fighter bonus feet at EVERY level. Would be a great start


Kami Konnig wrote:
Fighter bonus feet at EVERY level. Would be a great start

That sounds exhausting.


Kami Konnig wrote:
Fighter bonus feet at EVERY level. Would be a great start

So here's a challenge. You can take any feat you like, but you have to give up a spell slot permanently to get it. Which feats are worth a 9th level spell slot, and 8th level spell slot, a 7th level spell slot, etc? Giving a 15th level character an option that they didn't take at 1st level because it wasn't something they thought was that good is hardly a huge bonus.


The fighter is probably the hardest class to Unchain. The reason is that their power budget does not come from class abilities but from feat selection. You'd have to gut this before anything else if you ever wanted the fighter to get unchained.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Interesting that this thread is still going on. I remember researching it while writing Legendary Fighters for Legendary Games. 'Unchaining' the fighter wasn't easy but it can be done.


Upon writing, I've found the fighter basically did get an Unchained version, only not as a class write up but as a complete new subsystem that adds class features and abilities.

Stamina is really good, not all of them even have costs, many of them function like Grit where you simply have to have stamina still to access the enhanced abilities of your combat feats.

Some feats go from being not useful very much at all to being pretty great.

It also removes the restrictions of almost all feats that require INT 13 as a prerequisite (they did miss Whirlwind Attack though fwiw) so long as you maintain a point in your stamina pool you retain access to these feats.

Combat Stamina gave fighters a pool'd resource they can use to strangthen their attack rolls (a feature every other full BAB class had separate from feats) in addition to the other benefits that stamina has on a case by case basis.

Fighters are the wizards of full BAB classes, they take a lot of reading to get going at their full potential.


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Kami Konnig wrote:
Fighter bonus feet at EVERY level.

Well, that would at least give them +4 to Trip CMD for every extra pair of feet. But I'm not sure it fixes the original problem.


How does the stamina work in play? I think it sounds like it upgrades the fighter, but not for sure how well it works or if it is a lot of book keeping.

Are must people just giving it out as an optional feat for fighters at level 1?


We need an Unchained shifter before anything else lol


I wonder whether players were so eager to get an "Unchained fighter" if it's NOT a free power upgrade. For example if they had to sacrifice the excellent start at level 1, or advanced weapon training and combat stamina - in favor of some out-of-combat versatility.


spacemonkeyDM wrote:

How does the stamina work in play? I think it sounds like it upgrades the fighter, but not for sure how well it works or if it is a lot of book keeping.

Are must people just giving it out as an optional feat for fighters at level 1?

I personally advise the "free for fighters" option, and I can only say for my own group that's what we use. I don't play PF with my other groups as they were all 3.x groups that either stick to 3.x or have converted to 5e so my experience with other DMs is limited since I'm one of the only voluntary DMs in my group.

As DM, I can say I'm always pleasantly surprised whenever I see someone use anything from my guide, Stamina always feels like pulling a solution out of nowhere that I can't argue against and as a DM it's enlightening to see this come from someone piloting a fighter. Often I'll see it used to either mitigate penalties on attacks against a BBEG, or some other crazy combination to neutralize an otherwise game paralyzing enemy.

I would advise keeping a 'spellbook' for all your feats, even if there's only a select few whose stamina tricks are relevant to your build, there are feats out there who solely gain optimization thanks to stamina and giving additional versatility to a lot of these feats.

So yes, bookkeeping for the highly optimized, but otherwise you may just memorize some of the easier/more important ones like Combat Expertise, or even just use the ability to improve your attack rolls and ignore the tricks all together. Improved Initiative is the big one though imo.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:
I wonder whether players were so eager to get an "Unchained fighter" if it's NOT a free power upgrade. For example if they had to sacrifice the excellent start at level 1, or advanced weapon training and combat stamina - in favor of some out-of-combat versatility.

There are plenty of archetypes out there that do exactly this and they are not popular.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm just surprised that Fighters weren't given an unchained version in the first place! That being said, there's a good few classes which could do with some tinkering (Warpriest, Vigilante, Cavalier...), so maybe an Unchained Volume 2 is in order?

Either way, what makes the fighter the fighter is the big focus on bonus feats... which will of course leave it a little underpowered feeling in the long run, when everyone else is getting new class features while you're slowly building your character up. I do think the Bonus Feats are necessary, but maybe even halving the amount received and instead giving new features (Stamina is the obvious one, but even stuff which allows them to tango with enemy spellcasters, like perhaps a diluted form of Spell Resistance or even feats they wouldn't normally get quite as easily, like Pounce) would maybe make them more useable in the long run? Even taking a leaf out of 5E's book and seeing where they went right with the Fighter. All in all though, I don't see myself playing or recommending my players a fighter until we see a more substantial bonus to them than even just Stamina.


Problems with the current fighter:
- Bravery being rather weak; I'm so sorry, but a +5 bonus for fear effects isn't much.

- Weapon training being worthless; You're not going to carry 4 different weapons, as most fighters will carry a primary melee weapon, a primary ranged weapon and a back-up melee weapon. That's from 3 groups, or even only 2. You will fight different creature types for the ranger's favored enemy bonus takes effect, but not much for the weapon training.

- Absolutely no way to specialize; Look, they don't have different domains, bloodlines, schools, elements and whatnot. They have archetypes, but these feel like they should be layered ON TOP of the base class.

How to fix the fighter, as an Unchained version:

- Bravery; allow you to reroll a failed Will save X times/day, the second roll with a bonus equal to your level.

- Give it Combat Style; Ok, why does the ranger has this, but NOT the fighter? They could detail the Styles with bonus feats AND special abilities, similar to the Advanced Combat Training.

- Less bonus feats; as the Combat Style would replace some of them.

- Spell-like abilities... like maneuvers; Give them 2 or 3 abilities per Style that dish out the damage, like their weapon damage x their level, be X times/day.

- Free Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat; Give them proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, in addition of ONE exotic weapon of their choice.


I agree bravery is weak and you should have gotten immunity to fear by level 10 or so.

Weapon training isn't too bad since a bonus to hit and damage with an entire group of weapons is still useful but it lacks the fun and flare of other combat class abilities. The Brawlers power to have any feat(or feats) you can qualify for, rage powers, swashbuckler's panache, etc.

I love armor training.

But I still don't see a reason that the fighter only has 2+int skill points and perception is not a class skill. Especially for class that was supposed to be classic option for guards and generals.


JiCi wrote:
Absolutely no way to specialize; Look, they don't have different domains, bloodlines, schools, elements and whatnot. They have archetypes, but these feel like they should be layered ON TOP of the base class.

You can specialize a fighter by choosing your bonus feats. That's not as obvious and handy as ranger combat styles, but it's way more flexible. There are already a lot of classes where you pick a theme at the very beginning, I am happy there are at least a few sandbox classes like the fighter.

If you want to develop a tower shield specialist, with a fighter you don't have to wait for an according combat style - you simply take the according feats. This flexibility comes at a price - you have to do research to collect the necessary feats. But some people are willing (or even eager) to pay this price.


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JiCi wrote:

Problems with the current fighter:

- Bravery being rather weak; I'm so sorry, but a +5 bonus for fear effects isn't much.

- Weapon training being worthless; You're not going to carry 4 different weapons, as most fighters will carry a primary melee weapon, a primary ranged weapon and a back-up melee weapon. That's from 3 groups, or even only 2. You will fight different creature types for the ranger's favored enemy bonus takes effect, but not much for the weapon training.

- Absolutely no way to specialize; Look, they don't have different domains, bloodlines, schools, elements and whatnot. They have archetypes, but these feel like they should be layered ON TOP of the base class.

How to fix the fighter, as an Unchained version:

- Bravery; allow you to reroll a failed Will save X times/day, the second roll with a bonus equal to your level.

- Give it Combat Style; Ok, why does the ranger has this, but NOT the fighter? They could detail the Styles with bonus feats AND special abilities, similar to the Advanced Combat Training.

- Less bonus feats; as the Combat Style would replace some of them.

- Spell-like abilities... like maneuvers; Give them 2 or 3 abilities per Style that dish out the damage, like their weapon damage x their level, be X times/day.

- Free Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat; Give them proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, in addition of ONE exotic weapon of their choice.

All of this is ok but really does absolutely nothing for the fighter. It makes them more fighty. They dont need to be more fighty. We had a session today where the first half was heavy into rolling knowledge rolls and interacting with npcs through charisma skills.

The fighter might as well have been a cardboard cutout. Sure you can roleplay the character but the system gives no help/incentive whatsoever with it.

The fighter does need more killyness it needs more interactiveness with the world around it.


Errant Mercenary wrote:
JiCi wrote:

Problems with the current fighter:

- Bravery being rather weak; I'm so sorry, but a +5 bonus for fear effects isn't much.

- Weapon training being worthless; You're not going to carry 4 different weapons, as most fighters will carry a primary melee weapon, a primary ranged weapon and a back-up melee weapon. That's from 3 groups, or even only 2. You will fight different creature types for the ranger's favored enemy bonus takes effect, but not much for the weapon training.

- Absolutely no way to specialize; Look, they don't have different domains, bloodlines, schools, elements and whatnot. They have archetypes, but these feel like they should be layered ON TOP of the base class.

How to fix the fighter, as an Unchained version:

- Bravery; allow you to reroll a failed Will save X times/day, the second roll with a bonus equal to your level.

- Give it Combat Style; Ok, why does the ranger has this, but NOT the fighter? They could detail the Styles with bonus feats AND special abilities, similar to the Advanced Combat Training.

- Less bonus feats; as the Combat Style would replace some of them.

- Spell-like abilities... like maneuvers; Give them 2 or 3 abilities per Style that dish out the damage, like their weapon damage x their level, be X times/day.

- Free Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat; Give them proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, in addition of ONE exotic weapon of their choice.

All of this is ok but really does absolutely nothing for the fighter. It makes them more fighty. They dont need to be more fighty. We had a session today where the first half was heavy into rolling knowledge rolls and interacting with npcs through charisma skills.

The fighter might as well have been a cardboard cutout. Sure you can roleplay the character but the system gives no help/incentive whatsoever with it.

The fighter does need more killyness it needs more interactiveness with the world around it.

Ok, what does the fighter currently have to distinguish itself from the Barbarian, the Ranger, the Paladin, the Cavalier, the Gunslinger, the Samurai, the Brawler, the Hunter, the Swashbuckler or any other martial-oriented class? Absolutely nothing...

Case-in-point: You cannot make a viable Fighter BBEG; you're far better off with with any other class than the Fighter, on its own, it offers nothing. I didn't bring this up because I forgot, but the Fighter is one of the most, if not THE most gear-dependant class. Give non-magical, but masterwork equipment to a 20th-level Barbarian, he will pose a greater threat compared to a a 20th-level Fighter with any magic item.

The Fighter is your typical foot soldier without any way to advance him to sergeant, lientenant, colonel and general.

SheepishEidolon wrote:

You can specialize a fighter by choosing your bonus feats. That's not as obvious and handy as ranger combat styles, but it's way more flexible. There are already a lot of classes where you pick a theme at the very beginning, I am happy there are at least a few sandbox classes like the fighter.

If you want to develop a tower shield specialist, with a fighter you don't have to wait for an according combat style - you simply take the according feats. This flexibility comes at a price - you have to do research to collect the necessary feats. But some people are willing (or even eager) to pay this price.

Here's the catch: everyone can take 99% of the Fighter's feats. It's not like "being a Fighter" grant you additional benefits from a feat.

The Ranger has Combat Style... but not the Fighter... please explain me this.


The last two years of my life have been pointless.


JiCi wrote:
Here's the catch: everyone can take 99% of the Fighter's feats. It's not like "being a Fighter" grant you additional benefits from a feat.

That's true. But with the additional feats you can plow through the relevant feats significantly faster (archery comes to my mind) or combine feat-intense styles (such as two-weapon fighting and shield use).

Quote:
The Ranger has Combat Style... but not the Fighter... please explain me this.

Actually the fighter has something similar - many archetypes resolve around a certain way to fight.

Further, the ranger is not only about fighting. Offering the player prepackaged feats makes them dig through potential feats less. Hence it allows them to pay more attention to their animal companion (if applicable) and their spells.


master_marshmallow wrote:
The last two years of my life have been pointless.

Did you write an unchained version, and if so where could we find it?

JiCi, yes the Fighter needs better defined class options that are actually interesting as gaining levels that are not feats. But if you were to add just combat stuff the fighter would be in the same exact spot it is now. It needs flexibility, a way to participate in something else than combat.
This in itself could start being a defining part of the fighter.

I would really like a version that gives it stances that fill different roles in combat and are also tied to a non combat study. For example you have been training as a castle guard eventually into a castellan, then you can choose extra efficiency with heavy shields, polearms and bow/crossbow, a stance that helps you when you defend a position (giving you high ground whilst you are static?) and giving you a set of knowledge skills and some progression in them not tied to just intelligence.
Perhaps your background is of a guerilla milicia like in Ironfang. In that case the proficiency is for bows, javelins, axes and swords, the stance giving bonii for attacking on the move and the skills tailored to wilderness (Nature, Survival, able to use Survival for Diplomacy in non urban settings, etc).

Furthermore instead of simple +feats the fighter could have a list of feats per stance that they can choose from every so often, similar to monk bonus feats. The previous guerilla example giving him a list like: Dodge, Mobility, Lunge, Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, Vital Strike. Then every so often have Stance Training that changes slightly how these feat work to make a defined fighting style..example "You may use strength to damage for the first thrown weapon" "When you charge you get a single free thrown weapon attack in addition to the charge" "When using Spring Attack you may apply Vital Strike and/or Cleave as part of the action" etc.


Errant Mercenary wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
The last two years of my life have been pointless.
Did you write an unchained version, and if so where could we find it?

The Fighter has gotten a lot of upgrades (largely in the form of advanced weapon and armor trainings, but also in weapon/shield/armor/item mastery feats) over the past few years. Many of them mitigate to some extent the problems described above. Marshmallow wrote up a fairly comprehensive Guide to the PFRPG Fighter, that summarizes a lot of these new options, but it seems a lot of people haven't taken the time to read it (or disagree with what it says, but just ignore it, rather than pointing out where they think it's incorrect).

@JiCi, I would strongly argue that, with current published material, a campaign where a Fighter couldn't be a good BBEG is simply one where a non-caster can't be a good BBEG. That's certainly true for some campaigns. I don't think it's true for every campaign, however.


Thanks for the explanation. I have kept very up to date with the fighter stuff but didnt know about the guide.

As to a BBEG not being a fighter...that falls on the capabilities of the writer and possibly the gm. A literature example is The Lies of Locke Lamora.

Locke Lamora spoilers:
The Grey King is the BBEG, not the Falconer. The Falconer becomes a BBEG later on. However in the first installment it is the Grey King that orchestrates the machinations seeking vengeance which spills on to the main characters. The Falconer facilitates him to do it.


I don't even care about the guide, just the fact that we completely ignore the actual upgrade in Unchained because no one wanted to read the stamina rules.

It's the same thing as getting a new class, it's fighter+, it brings it closer to other classes. It does all the things you ask and it's in the same book you're complaining about it not being in.

blows my mind....


It is true the Unchained book and the Weapon/armour masters and others have given the fighter more than adequate tools for combat.
MMarshmallow I hope that is for previous posters, because I am not complaining, merely elucidating what is challenging with attempting to change the class. In any case what I have been talking about is certainly not solved by combat stamina. Fighter does not need more combat. Its real problem lies elsewhere.

The magic item mastery is an example of the right direction, even if it has a distinct bandaid quality to it.


Errant Mercenary wrote:

It is true the Unchained book and the Weapon/armour masters and others have given the fighter more than adequate tools for combat.

MMarshmallow I hope that is for previous posters, because I am not complaining, merely elucidating what is challenging with attempting to change the class. In any case what I have been talking about is certainly not solved by combat stamina. Fighter does not need more combat. Its real problem lies elsewhere.

The magic item mastery is an example of the right direction, even if it has a distinct bandaid quality to it.

Everything that comes out that isn't a complete rewrite A-La unchained barb/monk/rogue is going to feel like a bandaid. That doesn't mean it doesn't work.

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