The Fighter Unchained! Let's get the Fighter into PF Unchained


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Currently Armor training is only valuable in Full Plate. If a Fighter got a different bonus or alternate bonuses dependent on armor I believe that would show true "armor mastery"


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Would be kinda neat if Armor Training outright reduced the armor to a lower category.

Like:

Armor Training 1: Light armor is counted as no armor for the purposes of class abilities that rely on armor. Armor Check Penalties and Spell Failure are removed, the Maximum Dexterity bonus becomes unlimited, and the Fighter does not factor the armor's weight into his Encumbrance. Likewise, Medium Armor counts as light armor (Max Dex increases by 2, ACP lowered by 2, Arcane Spell Failure reduced by 10%, weight is reduced by 10 lbs, and no speed reduction), and Heavy armor counts as medium armor (same benefits and penalties, except it doesn't take away the movement speed penalty). Armor bonuses are unchanged.

Then Armor Training 2: Medium armor is counted as no armor, and Heavy Armor is treated as light armor.

It could use a bit of fiddling, but I think it's worthwhile. Essentially illustrates a Fighter's armor increasingly becoming like a second skin to him, providing little or no hindrance. He can be a graceful ballerina in regular Full Plate if he wishes.

Should probably come in at 5th and 10th, to discourage simply dipping a few levels of Fighter for your Sorcerer to wear Light armor with no troubles, but on the flipside also helps said Sorcerer if you plan to go Eldritch Knight, or allows a Monk with Fighter training to wear armor as if he has none on.


Personally, I kind of wished that Fighters would get more out of their than others. Like, maybe they could increase the base protection of armor they're wearing, or maybe the Fighter could also get DR equal to half his level (but capped by the armor bonus of his armor) while wearing armor.

So maybe Armor Training were to read something more like this:

Armor Training (Ex)

As a fighter gains in levels, his armor becomes more of a second skin to him, and he learns how to protect himself better in his armor. At 3rd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0), and increases the maximum dexterity bonus by 1. He also increases the armor bonus granted by light armor by +1 and increases the armor bonus every 4 fighter levels. At 7th level he increases the armor bonus of medium armor by +1 and another +1 every 4 levels thereafter, he can also move with no speed penalty in medium armor. At 11th level, he increases the armor bonus of heavy armor by +1 and by +1 every 4 levels there after, he can also move with no speed penalty in either medium or heavy armor.

Fighters also gain DR /- equal to the armor bonus of their armor, up to half their fighter level. So a 7th level fighter with a +1 chain shirt would gain a +7 armor bonus and DR 3/-.

=========================

Could do with some better writing, but something like the above would make armor training more worthwhile to keep around.


This was my idea a while back when we had the other Fighter threads going...

Quote:


Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum -4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

If a fighter is wielding a shield he gains a bonus to his Reflex save equal to the shield bonus (including any enhancement bonus).

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed and has no penalty for sleeping while wearing light or medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter gains these same benefits when wearing heavy armor.

At 11th level, a fighter applies the enhancement bonus of magical armor towards touch AC. At 15th level, a fighter treats the enhancement bonus from magical armor similar to (but stacking with) a deflection bonus, applying it towards incorporeal creatures as well.

.
Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains DR 5/- whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield. Unlike most forms of damage reduction, it stacks with all other damage reduction sources; it is applied after damage has been reduced by any other damage reduction.

The shield=reflex thing just always made sense to me, and the sleep in armor thing makes him a tough cookie (endurance, but on full plate!).

The 11th and 15th level stuff was geared towards helping him defend against more level appropriate things, without making it a totally supernatural effect (he just uses his magical armor in a more effective way, *shrug* he's been around magic for over 10 levels and armor's his bag, he can just "hack" it).

The armor mastery thing is kind of needed to make it worth anything, honestly.


And since we are tossing around ideas, here's what I had for general defensive stuff.

Quote:


Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a bonus to all saves against spells and effects that cause confusion, fear and pain. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

This keeps it a little more splatbook current, and a little more encompassing of a boost.

Quote:


Bulwark (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a fighter trains his mind to ignore that which would deter him. He can spend a standard action to gain a bulwark, granting him immunity to certain conditions. The bulwark lasts for 1 round, but can be maintained each round afterwards as a swift or move action. The bulwark only prevents the effects of the conditions, it returns if the duration of the effects lasts longer than the fighter maintains the immunity. A fighter gains bulwarks as he levels, but may only select a single bulwark at a time.

Upon reaching 8th level, a fighter can activate a bulwark as a move action. At 12th level, a fighter can activate and maintain two bulwarks at once, however it requires a full round action to activate. At 16th level, a fighter can activate a single bulwark as a swift action, or as an immediate action. If used as an immediate action, this counts as maintaining that single bulwark for his turn. Upon reaching 20th level, a fighter can activate and maintain three bulwarks, using a full round action to activate.

If the fighter receives a critical hit or sneak attack damage, he must spend an activation equivalent action to maintain his bulwark on his next turn, or the bulwark ends.

Fearless: At 4th level, a fighter can become immune to the shaken, frightened, cowering and panicked conditions.
Tireless: At 4th level, a fighter can become immune to the fatigued and exhausted conditions.
Staunch Gut: At 8th level, a fighter can become immune to the sickened and nauseated conditions.
Focused: At 8th level, a fighter can become immune to the fascinated condition.
Unfazed: At 12th level, a fighter can become immune to the dazed condition.
Relentless: At 12th level, a fighter can become immune to the staggered condition.
Clarity: At 16th level, a fighter can become immune to the confusion condition.
Stubborn: At 16th level, a fighter can become immune to the stunned condition.
Unstoppable: At 20th level, a fighter can become immune to the disabled and unconscious conditions.

I felt this was more mechanically fun, and thematically martial, than just slapping on a higher Will save. It gives the Fighter a neat pro-active defensive element to play with. And a strong one at that.


I like Bulwark, but I think there is an ability already called that. So we should think of a cool name or something. :)


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Because some other class already exists for "huge numbers" I believe an Unchained Fighter should not be focused on having "Huge impressive numbers" like our good friend the BarBar, but instead on having "large bonuses" to all forms of combat as well as proficiency in them.

They need some kind of bonus to remain a primary combat class, so I don't mind the +1 scaling flat bonus in place. That just keeps them in the running.

But having something "over and above" that would be great. I personally like the idea of Weapon Training, but prefer that the weapon groups give you a "trick" that is thematic to the group, but the trick can be applied to anything that seems appropriate (so anything you are proficient with that would normally benefit from it, like all ranged weapons, or all slashing weapons, etc).

Here's what I tried out:

Quote:


Weapon Training (Ex): At 1st level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. A fighter is proficient with all weapons in the selected weapon group. Upon selecting a weapon group, a fighter gains a specific combat ability and magical effect (if the weapon used is already magical) that he may use with all appropriate proficient weapons.

Every four levels thereafter (5th, 9th, 13th and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons, and may select an additional weapon group, gaining the proficiencies and benefits.

Every day, when training his combat versatility (read: 1 hour during rest), he may select a single weapon from one of his weapon groups. He gains Weapon Focus with that weapon as a bonus feat. He also gains the following bonus feats for the selected weapon at the levels when he'd qualify for them: Weapon Specialization (4th), Greater Weapon Focus (8th), Greater Weapon Specialization (12th), Penetrating Strike (12th), and Greater Penetrating Strike (16th).

In addition, at 5th level the fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with all proficient weapons. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 13th level, and +4 at 17th level. This bonus applies to combat maneuver checks using that weapon, and CMD when applied against the weapon (such as disarm or sunder maneuvers).

Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):

Axes
A fighter may use the Cleave feat on the first attack of a full attack with any melee slashing weapon. If the weapon is magical, it is treated as having the might cleaving enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Bardiche, battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, hooked axe, knuckle axe, light pick, mattock, orc double axe, pata, and throwing axe.

Blades, Heavy
A fighter may hold and use any melee weapon with two hands to gain the benefits normally given to two-handed weapons (such as 50% extra strength and power attack damage bonus). If the weapon is magical, it deals an extra 1d6 damage in kinetic force (same damage type as the weapon itself) when used two-handed. As weapon damage, it is multiplied on a Vital Strike attack.
Weapon Proficiencies
Bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, falcata, falchion, greatsword, great terbutje, katana, khopesh, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, and two-bladed sword.

Blades, Light
A fighter may treat any one-handed melee weapon held in the off hand as a light weapon for purposes of two weapon fighting, and treats any weapon wielded in the offhand as a blocking, disarm and distracting weapon. If the main hand weapon is magical, then the off hand weapon is treated as magical and shares the same enhancement bonus.
Weapon Proficiencies
Bayonet, butterfly sword, dagger, gladius, kama, kerambit, kukri, pata, quadrens, rapier, short sword, sica, sickle, starknife, swordbreaker dagger, sword cane, and wakizashi.

Bows
A fighter can add Strength to damage with all drawn projectile weapons (bows and crossbows), treat as having the adaptive enhacemnt. If the weapon is magical, it is treated as having the distance enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.

Close
A fighter may use any melee weapon in a grapple, or in tight spaces (such as when swallowed whole). When used this way, the weapon deals damage as one size lower. If the weapon is magical, a successful attack with the weapon automatically catches onto the target allowing an automatic grapple attempt that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A fighter can choose to not go ahead with the grapple.
Weapon Proficiencies
Bayonet, brass knuckles, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart.

Crossbows
A fighter can cause greater damage with projectile weapons with a lined up shot. When the fighter uses Vital Strike, he adds all damage that would normally multiply on a critical hit as extra damage. If the weapon is magical, it is treated as having the seeking enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Double crossbow, hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, light crossbow, light repeating crossbow, and tube arrow shooter.

Double
A fighter may treat all two-handed weapons as double weapons, with the offhand attack dealing 1d4 20/x2 blunt damage (medium size). If the two-handed weapon or at least one end of a double weapon is magical, then the other end is treated as magical and shares the same enhancement bonus.
Weapon Proficiencies
Dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, quarterstaff, and two-bladed sword.

Firearms
A fighter can cause any projectile weapon to target touch AC against targets within 30 feet, however using the weapon in this way puts strain on it and causes the fragile condition (failure on a 1 or 2). The fighter can decide to shoot the weapon normally if desired. If the projectile weapon is magical, it is treated as having the thundering enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
All one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms.

Flails
A fighter treats any melee weapon as a trip weapon and can be used with Weapon Finesse. If the weapon is magical, it is treated as having the countering enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Chain spear, dire flail, double chained kama, flail, flying blade, heavy flail, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, meteor hammer, morningstar, nine-section whip, nunchaku, sansetsukon, scorpion whip, spiked chain, urumi, and whip.

Hammers
A fighter deals double damage while sundering with any blunt damage weapon. If the weapon is magical, it is able to make a free bull rush combat maneuver (that does not provoke an attack of opportunity) on a successful hit.
Weapon Proficiencies
Aklys, battle aspergillum, club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, mere club, taiaha, tetsubo, wahaika, and warhammer.

Monk
If a fighter has the flurry of blows ki ability, they may use any melee or throwing weapon as part of their flurry of blows. If the weapon is magical, it is treated as having the ki focus enhancement. If it already has the ki focus enhancement, it is instead treated as having the ki intensifying enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungshuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart.

Natural
A fighter may use any melee weapon wielded in hand as if it were a primary natural attack, and up to two melee weapons not held in hand (such as armor spikes) as secondary natural attacks, and may use them as part of a natural attack routine. If the weapons are magical, they are treated as having the huntsman enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.

Polearms
A fighter may treat any melee weapon as if it has the reach weapon special (he may strike opponents 10 feet away, but not adjacent foes). A fighter must decide at the start of his turn if he is using it in this manner or not. If the weapon is magical, it is treated as having the menacing enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Bardiche, bec de corbin, bill, glaive, glaive-guisarme, guisarme, halberd, hooked lance, lucerne hammer, mancatcher, monk's spade, naginata, nodachi, ranseur, and tiger fork.

Spears
A fighter may use the brace weapon special with any melee weapon. If the weapon is magical, it gains the heartseeker enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Amentum, boar spear, javelin, harpoon, lance, longspear, pilum, shortspear, sibat, spear, tiger fork, and trident.

Thrown
A fighter may throw any melee weapon as if it were a throwing weapon, with a range increment of 10'. Also, if the weapon (or a normal throwing weapon) is magical, it is treated as having the returning enhancement.
Weapon Proficiencies
Aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dart.

Siege Engines
A fighter may use larger than normal projectiles for all projectile weapons; treat damage as if one size larger. If the projectile weapon or it's amunition is magical, it deals double damage against objects and ignores hardness.
Weapon Proficiencies
All siege engines


Odraude wrote:
I like Bulwark, but I think there is an ability already called that. So we should think of a cool name or something. :)

Nooooooo! :D

I spent a while on thesaurus.com trying to find the best name, and honestly, Bulwarks was the coolest sounding, non-made up, non-building block words, name I could find.

Are you sure something else already uses it? I tried looking to see if it was used with any class abilities before going ahead with it. Plus, there's already instances of splatbooks coming out with competing names for things (Brawler class vs Brawler archetype, etc), if there's something minor or archeypal-swapped ability that has it.

Edit: Ok, found it. Stalwart Defender Prestige class. The one that used to require being a dwarf in 3.Xe.

I'm sorry, but no. Prestige classes (especially this one) are so rarely used or seen, that I cannot possibly give two flips that it has a single defensive power named the same as this. Mine's far more cool a use of the term anyways, anyone seeing them side-by-side would assume the prestige class stole it from me. Lol!


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remove penalties that come from combat feats up to your bravery bonus.

That will cover the attack bonus without tying the fighter down to a weapon group.

Lantern Lodge

Trogdar wrote:

remove penalties that come from combat feats up to your bravery bonus.

That will cover the attack bonus without tying the fighter down to a weapon group.

So something like, power attacks don't cause a high level fighter to suffer the minus to attack?


Secane wrote:
Trogdar wrote:

remove penalties that come from combat feats up to your bravery bonus.

That will cover the attack bonus without tying the fighter down to a weapon group.

So something like, power attacks don't cause a high level fighter to suffer the minus to attack?

Yes. Basically, a high level fighter will be running around with a whole series of bonuses without suffering any penalties whatsoever. They would then be the king of feats.

Lantern Lodge

Trogdar wrote:
Secane wrote:
Trogdar wrote:

remove penalties that come from combat feats up to your bravery bonus.

That will cover the attack bonus without tying the fighter down to a weapon group.

So something like, power attacks don't cause a high level fighter to suffer the minus to attack?
Yes. Basically, a high level fighter will be running around with a whole series of bonuses without suffering any penalties whatsoever. They would then be the king of feats.

I can see it if it only kicks in at mid-higher levels. Prevents people from just dipping a lv or 2 of fighter to get these benefits, while allowing the fighter to really shine at higher levels.


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That is definitely a valid concern, which I think tying the bonuses to bravery solves by spreading those penalty reductions over 20 levels.


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Secane wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
Secane wrote:
Trogdar wrote:

remove penalties that come from combat feats up to your bravery bonus.

That will cover the attack bonus without tying the fighter down to a weapon group.

So something like, power attacks don't cause a high level fighter to suffer the minus to attack?
Yes. Basically, a high level fighter will be running around with a whole series of bonuses without suffering any penalties whatsoever. They would then be the king of feats.
I can see it if it only kicks in at mid-higher levels. Prevents people from just dipping a lv or 2 of fighter to get these benefits, while allowing the fighter to really shine at higher levels.

Emphasis mine. If they did this, as a 2 level dip they would only have a +1 Bravery bonus, so they'd only ignore the first -1 penalty of feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise. So a Fighter 2/Paladin 18 would Power Attack for -5/+12, where as a Fighter 20 would Power Attack for -1/+12 and can have Combat Expertise at -1/+6 at the same time.

Then you could take Stalwart and Improved Stalwart and Fight Defensively, so in total you're taking -6 to hit and you get +12 to damage, +8 (or +9 if 3 ranks in Acrobatics) to AC, and you get DR 8/-, which makes you a total badass at this point. Even scarier if you're a Halfling Fighter with the Risky Striker feat as you now also get a further +12 to damage and you don't take the -1 AC penalty. If you two-hand, you're getting a +30 damage bonus, +8 AC, Dr 8/- and all for the measly cost of -6 to attack. Pretty damned good trade off in my opinion.


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BTW, Halfling Fighters? Tots OP.


Some ideas.

Great Mirth: the fighter can consume a number of pounds of edible material equal to 10 times his fighter level plus 10 times his CON bonus as a full round action. This can increase his weight by an equal amount if the fighter wants or he may remain the same weight, if he chooses to gain weight he may increase his size one step as if using enlarge person if he consumes at least 50% his regular weight, this effect lasts 4 hours, the fighter can end this effect early as a free action. The fighter must wait 4 hours before using this ability again.

Swordcopter: by rapidly spinning a two-handed weapon the fighter gains a fly speed equal to 10 times his strength bonus, he can maintain this flight for a number of rounds equal to his CON score. The fighter must wait twice the number of rounds spent flying before he can use this ability again. The fighter can attack with his weapon while flying but his hands are otherwise occupied while flying in this manner.

Narrative Weather: the weather quickly changes to match the fighter's mood. At will as a free action the fighter can alter the weather in a 4 mile radius around himself. The fighter picks a type of weather, over the next hour the weather changes to match the designated weather. If the weather is being manipulated by magic the fighter can attempt an opposed caster level check (treating his fighter level as his caster level) if successful the weather begins to change, if the fighter fails he must wait 1 hour before he can attempt to alter any weather again.

Lantern Lodge

Ideal: drop all Fighter class features. (Bravery, weapon/armor training.)

Give the Fighter a combat feat at every class level.


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Or give the fighter a combat feat at every class level without dropping the class features.
Hardly OP.

Silver Crusade

Three words: Champion of Irori

MMCJawa wrote:
A fighter should know how to hit an enemy and leave him paralyzed/stunned/sickened/etc.

Stunning Fist

MMCJawa wrote:
He should be proficient enough in the art of combat to know where to hit a foe to power past DR or armor

Smite Evil/Chaos

MMCJawa wrote:
An experienced fighter should be able to create fear in his enemies that sends them running

Being awesome?

MMCJawa wrote:
An experienced fighter should be able to take a crap ton of damage and still keep going, even getting health back

Lay on Hands

MMCJawa wrote:
He should be able to deflect arrows or even catch them, and reflect spells back onto their casters

Deflect/Snatch Arrows as bonus feats.

MMCJawa wrote:
Mow down pack of bad guys without even breaking stride and etc etc

Whirlwind Smite!!!!!

------------------------------------------------

But seriously, Champion of Irori is possibly the best archetype to represent what martials should be. He has no arcane power backing him up, but he does have divine power. This divine power however could easily be reskinned into innate martial awesomeness. Lay on Hands = Staunch the Wound; Smite Evil = Battle Prowess; Stunning Fist = Overwhelming Strike; etc.

P.S. - Champions of Irori rock.


Karu the Bold Strider wrote:


MMCJawa wrote:
An experienced fighter should be able to create fear in his enemies that sends them running

Being awesome?

Being an Unarmed user.

Let's face it, if you want to do damage, you'll be using Dragon Style. Dragon Ferocity makes your Stunning Fist (and crits) make people Shaken.

Combine with something like Cornugon Smash and you could stack Fear (Cornugon for Shaken, Stunning Fist stacks Shaken to Fear), sending them running. =)

Plus, Dragon Roar. Though it's not that great.

Silver Crusade

I forgot about that. Karu has Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity. Good catch Rynjin.


yeah....but isn't the point to list things every fighter should have access to? and not...list things a paladin prestige class has (I think that is what champion of Irori is?)


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Here's my suggested fix for an unchained fighter: Give them Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital Strike for free at BABs +6, +11, and +16, and add an ability at those same levels that lets them replace a single attack with a Vital Strike instead of an attack action. This would give the fighter a unique, versatile damage-dealing ability that no other class has and open up a world of possibilities that a lot of PF gamers have been wanting for a long while. It would also cut down on the fighter players' frustration of having to constantly move into position to get a full attack and feel less effective than other warrior types.

For a mental stat-related bonus, I'd also give them the Combat Expertise feat for free at 2nd level regardless of whether or not the character has sufficient Int. A lot of good combat feats that allow those characters to specialize in combat maneuvers are tied to Combat Expertise, seemingly without any good reason except that "that's how 3.5 did it, so we have to do it that way too". This would lower the feat tax on the fighter and allow them to pretty quickly acquire signature abilities without having to bump a mental stat during character generation. Archetypes could offer alternatives to this that play more on Wis and Cha.

Scarab Sages

Power Word Unzip wrote:

Here's my suggested fix for an unchained fighter: Give them Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital Strike for free at BABs +6, +11, and +16, and add an ability at those same levels that lets them replace a single attack with a Vital Strike instead of an attack action. This would give the fighter a unique, versatile damage-dealing ability that no other class has and open up a world of possibilities that a lot of PF gamers have been wanting for a long while. It would also cut down on the fighter players' frustration of having to constantly move into position to get a full attack and feel less effective than other warrior types.

For a mental stat-related bonus, I'd also give them the Combat Expertise feat for free at 2nd level regardless of whether or not the character has sufficient Int. A lot of good combat feats that allow those characters to specialize in combat maneuvers are tied to Combat Expertise, seemingly without any good reason except that "that's how 3.5 did it, so we have to do it that way too". This would lower the feat tax on the fighter and allow them to pretty quickly acquire signature abilities without having to bump a mental stat during character generation. Archetypes could offer alternatives to this that play more on Wis and Cha.

This is basically what the Brawler is doing, but giving a one hit KO instead of Vital Strike.


Power Word Unzip wrote:

Here's my suggested fix for an unchained fighter: Give them Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital Strike for free at BABs +6, +11, and +16, and add an ability at those same levels that lets them replace a single attack with a Vital Strike instead of an attack action. This would give the fighter a unique, versatile damage-dealing ability that no other class has and open up a world of possibilities that a lot of PF gamers have been wanting for a long while. It would also cut down on the fighter players' frustration of having to constantly move into position to get a full attack and feel less effective than other warrior types.

For a mental stat-related bonus, I'd also give them the Combat Expertise feat for free at 2nd level regardless of whether or not the character has sufficient Int. A lot of good combat feats that allow those characters to specialize in combat maneuvers are tied to Combat Expertise, seemingly without any good reason except that "that's how 3.5 did it, so we have to do it that way too". This would lower the feat tax on the fighter and allow them to pretty quickly acquire signature abilities without having to bump a mental stat during character generation. Archetypes could offer alternatives to this that play more on Wis and Cha.

Actually, that's not bad. Some of those are pretty good ideas.


Instead of substituting an attack, id rather have them get early access to the critical feats and have vital strike count as a critical hit for the purposes of it. it lends itself to something more than just higher damage. or you could bypass the critical feats and just let them inflict many of the conditions from the antipaladin's cruelties.


christos gurd wrote:
Instead of substituting an attack, id rather have them get early access to the critical feats and have vital strike count as a critical hit for the purposes of it. it lends itself to something more than just higher damage. or you could bypass the critical feats and just let them inflict many of the conditions from the antipaladin's cruelties.

+1 I think that would lend itself to an awesome debuffing fighter style instead of the usual DPR rat race.


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Things to tweak for the Fighter:

* Bravery is now a bonus against all mind-affecting magic
* Profession (Soldier) skill can be used to analyze the tactics of enemies (opposed by enemy leader's Profession (Soldier) or Bluff check). Success lets the fighter figure out the enemy's plan. Failing by 10 or more leads him to the wrong conclusion.
* 4 skill points per level

Fighters are OK as they are but if I were to change anything those would be it.


Power Word Unzip wrote:

Here's my suggested fix for an unchained fighter: Give them Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital Strike for free at BABs +6, +11, and +16, and add an ability at those same levels that lets them replace a single attack with a Vital Strike instead of an attack action. This would give the fighter a unique, versatile damage-dealing ability that no other class has and open up a world of possibilities that a lot of PF gamers have been wanting for a long while. It would also cut down on the fighter players' frustration of having to constantly move into position to get a full attack and feel less effective than other warrior types.

For a mental stat-related bonus, I'd also give them the Combat Expertise feat for free at 2nd level regardless of whether or not the character has sufficient Int. A lot of good combat feats that allow those characters to specialize in combat maneuvers are tied to Combat Expertise, seemingly without any good reason except that "that's how 3.5 did it, so we have to do it that way too". This would lower the feat tax on the fighter and allow them to pretty quickly acquire signature abilities without having to bump a mental stat during character generation. Archetypes could offer alternatives to this that play more on Wis and Cha.

Pathfinder Unchained is going to provide martial characters the ability to go nova to get more power from their feats.

So your first suggestion is covered in Pathfinder Unchained.

And to my knowledge (from the information being released) the classes are not going to be total rewrites. Like the Barbarian will gain temporary hit points instead of the bonus to their Constitution stat.


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Yeah. I think the rewrites are focusing on rewriting abilities so that these new classes are still compatible with archetypes. I wouldn't expect a class that looks and progresses completely differently.


With the Paizo publishing process the ship has sailed. We'll find out soon whether Fighters actually go anything or if Slayers and Rangers are still better at using their toys.


I think Fighters should get improvements, but Unchained or not, I think a lot of what I see here is too radical.

First, don't take away any of the features they currently have: Certainly keep weapon and armor training, but even Bravery, which is a very weak ability, is nonetheless thematic and there's no reason to get rid of it.

Yes to a second good save, but the second good save should be Reflex. Absolutely no good Willpower save for a class that specializes in the physical.

Actually, PF Unchained should add the concept of the "average" save (not for fighters, who should have Good Fort and Reflex and poor Willpower), but most other classes with only one good save should gain an "average" save in return for one of their bad ones, average being pretty much right in between good saves and bad saves.

Don't get rid of the Int 13 for some feats, because dump stats should be minimized across the board. However, (sort of) get rid of some of the worst Feat taxes: Fighters should be considered to have Combat Expertise for the purpose of qualifying for their bonus combat feats for which it is a prerequisite, though those feats still would require Int 13. The same with Power Attack, Dodge, and maybe a couple of others (Critical Focus? Mounted Combat?). I'd say Improved Unarmed Strike, but there's a new hybrid class for that, the Brawler.

The above wouldn't give them those feats, but just allow them to progress up some feat trees without the "feat taxes." This would only apply to qualifying for bonus combat feats from the Fighter class, because otherwise it does too much (if granted early, which it should be) to let someone dip and then use that ability in other classes.

4 + Int mod skill ranks per level. Almost everyone should get at least that much. Wizards might be the only exception, and not as much due to their power level (though it is a secondary factor) as that they naturally need lots of Int anyway, so 2 + Int is worth as many skill ranks to them as 4 + Int is to just about anyone else.

Because a fighter would be naturally intimidating, add 1/2 the fighter's fighter level to Intimidate checks. Maybe to make mounted combat easier on fighters, do the same with Ride checks.

All of these are upgrades. Keep everything they already have (from very weak stuff like Bravery to the bonus feats, to absolutely weapon training).


The fighter should be unchained from standard restrictions of ay other character or martials.

specifically, feat prerequisites, and movements restrictions.

This should be level based to prevent dipping just to get these considerations.

Shadow Lodge

6 skill points.
All good saves.
Fighters do not require prerequisite feats for combat feats.
Fighters can move their full movement rate AND full-attack. The attacks and movement can be broken up any way the player wants.


Kthulhu wrote:

6 skill points.

All good saves.
Fighters do not require prerequisite feats for combat feats.
Fighters can move their full movement rate AND full-attack. The attacks and movement can be broken up any way the player wants.

now everyone dips 1 level of fighter….


Armor training, weapon training, and Bravery should stay!

They should be rewritten too.

Weapon Training: Should be swapable with an hours practice. Got a cool new Bardiche, but had trained in swords? With an hour of drills you can into Polearms!

Armor training: currently only useful for Heavy Armor. It should be expanded to have different benefits in Light and Medium armor.

Bravery: Paladins get IMMUNITY to fear and can share that as an aura. Bravery needs to apply its bonus to more things. I think skills involving Bravery would work. Bravery bonus to climbing, swimming, acrobatics, bluff, and maybe 1-2 more skills.

None of these abilities should stop doing what they are doing, but should do more.

Also killing bad feat taxes.

Shadow Lodge

Pendagast wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

6 skill points.

All good saves.
Fighters do not require prerequisite feats for combat feats.
Fighters can move their full movement rate AND full-attack. The attacks and movement can be broken up any way the player wants.
now everyone dips 1 level of fighter….

I'd probably come up with some way to limit the later two so that it doesn't become cheese bait. Maye they only apply if your total fighter levels are at least 3/4 of your total character levels, or something like that.


@Oly,

The problem is saving throws in general.

The house rule i use in my game for saving throws is 3/4 BAB, +2 for good saving throws. It makes the Fighter's lack of good saving throws a non-issue.

Homebrew experts Aelyrinth and Rainzax use a similar system.

Separating the problems with general game mechanics and problems with the Fighter class helps isolate the actual issue, that needs fixing.

@Insain Dragoon, yes I agree bravery, armor training and weapon training are good abilities although they need amendments to make them RAI, currently as RAW they fail to do that.


Kthulhu wrote:


I'd probably come up with some way to limit the later two so that it doesn't become cheese bait. Maye they only apply if your total fighter levels are at least 3/4 of your total character levels, or something like that.

The issue with that is that then, gaining levels may cause you to lose power. Better to put the abilities in at relevant levels. For example, the fighter is able to skip feat prerequisities for fighter bonus feats, but not any other feats.

And the "full attack and move" is nearly irrelevant before level 6 anyway, so instead, do something like "at 6th level, a fighter that makes a standard attack action may make an additional attack at BAB-5 as if making a full attack. At 11th level, they may make a third attck at BAB-10, and at 16th level they may make a fourth attack at BAB -15."
Or something similar.


I would like it if Fighter got it's own pool of class-specific abilities to choose from (Rage Powers. Slayer Talents. Magus Arcana. etc.) I feel like that might also take away from the "feat taxes" or long feat-trees, since one particular baseline in design was that they were designed with Fighters getting so many feats.

Also, toss my 2 copper in to the move+full attack boat.


fighter unchained would be cool.

for me:
fighter is a perfect class for a dip already
fighter is ok-ish in melee combat already
fighter sucks for medium to high lvls
fighter sucks in non-combat situations

based on the above, something to mitigrate their medium to high lvl suckage, as well as mitigrate their non-combat problems, should be some abilities that come online in like lvl 3-4 and continue to evolve from there. (because if you add those abilities in lvls 1-2 then you just increase it's dip value.

for starters:

combat mastery:
similar to weapon/armor familiarity but for expanded versatility in combat (instead of walk to the mob and whack it):

at lvl3 pick a maneuver (like trip, grapple, reposition, etc). you gain the 1st feat regarding this maneuver as a bonus feat, you don't need to meet it's requirements.

at lvl7 pick a second maneuver. You gain the basic feat for it. You also get one feat in any maneuver you have previously trained.

at lvl11 and every 4 lvls therafter, pick another basic maneuver, and you can spend your free maneuver feat to progress either of the maneuvers you have picked.

skill mastery:
similar to weapon/armor familiarity but for expanded versatility out of combat:

at lvl 2 and every 2 lvls therafter pick a str, dex, profession or craft skill. You are counted as having your fighter levels as ranks for this skill

captain's orders:
for me, fighters are like the upper ranks of military orders. where warriors would be the soldiers, fighters would the lieutenants, captains, generals of an army.

at lvl 5 you can use profession (soldier) this instead of diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive when you speak with guards, army, or generally members of a martial order.
you can also use profession (soldier) instead of knowledge (geography).

weapon use mastery:
if anyone can use a weapon, then it's the fighter. instead of relying on brute strength, or an anything other, a fighter is the one class depicted as the epitome of weapon use.
at lvl 11 and every 4 lvls therafter, pick a weapon enchantment out of:
keen
countering
defending
heartseeker
menacing
advancing
wounding
impact

as a free action each turn, he can switch an enchantment from the base weapon to any enchantment he has chosen. This switch is not magical in nature and lasts only as long as the fighter uses the weapon, it reflects the mastery of the fighter to better use his weapon.
p.e. a lvl15 fighter with advancing and defending as his choices wields a +3 flaming longsword.
During his turn, he studies the giant that is next to him, and sees that he himself has suffered a lot of wounds. So he places the weapon so that the flames around it partially blind the large creature, and then as he strikes the creature he uses the momentum of the magical blade to move himself to a better position (he switches the flaming for defending, and he switches +2 from the enchantment bonus to the advancing property)

lastly, the mobility issue.
i would give fighter something for a higher level where not taking a full attack is both fatal and happens often (due to enemy tactics, options, intelligence, etc)

push for advantage:
at lvl14, the fighter can force himself to move through sheer force of will. If he hasn't moved that round he can as an immediate action take a move action to move (not do anything other that requires a move action). After this move action he can't move for the remainder of the round (no 5ft steps, no double move +standard, etc).
Utilizing this move action causes 1d6 of nonlethal damage for each 5ft that the fighter moved. This damage happens at the end of his round (so he could potentially move, full attack, and if he was injured, fall unconcious after his full attack)

Silver Crusade

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I've posted about this before, and I may have even posted in this thread, but here's what I think the Fighter should do.

Armor/Shields: Armor Training 1 and 2 are fine, everything after sucks. Armor Training 3 should allow you to add your Armor Enhancement bonus to your Touch AC. Armor Training 4 should allow you to apply your Armor Enhancement as a DR/-. Armor Mastery should allow you to double both of those bonuses and give you Fortification 50%. So that at level 19 a Fighter gets +10 to his touch, DR 10/-, and Fortification 50%, if he's maxed out his armor bonus.

Bravery: Sucks all the way. Change it to Samurai's resolve, make the pool based on Fighter's CON.

NEW FEATURE: Fighter's Renown: Pick one CHA based skill, add 1/2 Fighter Level to those checks.

Weapon Training: Fine, but lets add that all Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec. and Improved Crit feats apply to every weapon in your training groups.

At 4, 8, 12, and 16 let's give Fighters a NEW FEATURE- Spellkiller - A Fighter spends his life fighting with and against creatures that have the uncanny ability to twist reality to their whim. Against all odds they persevere, and pick up a few tricks along the way. At level 4 a fighter may roll Sense Motive against a caster attempting to cast defensively. If their Sense Motive beats the Caster's Defensive Casting, they may attempt an AoO. At level 8, they gain the step up feat. At Level 12, they add 1/2 fighter level to their sense motive checks when using Spellkiller. At 16, they can take a -5 penalty to hit, for the ability for their damage to linger for a round and force a concentration check for any caster they strike to cast a spell.

Let's give fighters 4+INT skill points, make perception, Know Local and Know Nobility class skills


I think Armor Training 3 and 4 are underpowered, and so are Weapon Training 3, 4 and 5.

If those are reworked, the Fighter works perfectly.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

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Removed a post containing link to material violating our Community Use Policy.


Resolve honestly makes a ton of sense as a Fighter class feature. I'm surprised there's not an archetype that grants it already.

I'm kinda fond of a "power through" ability the Fighter can use a couple times a day to make a Strength or Constitution check to end an effect he's under, like breaking Hold Person or Dominate Person effects or burning off a poison/disease effect. You know, using their reputation as the toughest of tough guys to shrug off crippling effects a couple times each day.

I feel like if the Fighter AND Barbarian are both Unchained, we should go all the way with the divide I see between the classes already and codify the Barbarian as the pinnacle of martial offensive power, the best there is at breaking anything in his way down in his rage, and the Fighter as the pinnacle of martial defensive power, good at killing monsters with his weapons but also just able to survive ANYTHING through sheer toughness, wit, and making his own luck. At their peaks, the Barbarian's an Unstoppable Force while the Fighter's an Immovable Object. That's just my opinion, anyway.

Both classes could use a little more out-of-combat clout, too, the Fighter moreso than the Barbarian, and I'm hoping the "Fatigue System" or whatever gives them some additional options for when their standard approach is inappropriate.

Silver Crusade

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I wrote a brief outline of what I thought above, but in all honesty, the fighter is broken. It's great for 5 levels, then you can't really do much of anything but soak up damage and occasionally hit non-flying things.

If you want to fix the fighter, imho, you need to think about him in terms of what he is, a cagey warrior who despite not having superpowers finds a way to thrive in a world field with magic and gods.

You start by increasing his HP.

I know this is holy Barbarian ground, but there are no sacred cows here.
Bold indicates something new.

Fighter HD = 1d12. The barbarian is still going to get the advantage due to Rage and Raging Vitality, but lets give the fighter the edge over Rangers, Paladins, Bloodragers and Slayers for now.

Skills and Class Skills: 4+INT, Sense Motive, Perception, Knowledge Local and Knowledge Nobility are now Class skills for the Fighter.

Level 1: Bonus Feat. He's still the Fighter we know and love and this prevents him from being dip, by not overwhelming him upfront with powers.

Level 2: Bonus Feat and Fighter's Resolve.
Fighter's Resolve: 1/4 Fighter Level (min 1) + CON uses per day. 3 Ways to use.

Shake it Off: By spending a use of Resolve, a fighter can roll twice for a Fort or Will Save. He may spend an additional use of Resolve to add his CON to his roll.

Ferocity: By spending a use of Resolve, a fighter gains Ferocity for 1 round.

Power Through: The Fighter may spend a point of resolve to remove the Fatigued, Shaken, or Sickened conditions from himself as a swift action. At Level 10 he can remove the Exhausted, Frightened, and Nauseated.

Level 3: Armor Training 1- No Change

Level 4: Bonus Feat and Spellkiller
Spell-killer At Level 4 a Fighter uses his experience fighting with and against magic users to improve his effectiveness against them. As an immediate action, a fighter may make an opposed roll against a caster's Defensive Casting roll. If the Fighter beats the Caster, he gets an Attack of Opportunity. If he fails, he takes a -2 Penalty to his saves until the start of his next turn. A At Level 12, the Fighter gains the step up feat for free and can use his Spellkiller check to time his step up so that he enters the caster's square as he teleports/dimension doors and travels with the caster. Level 20, the Fighter adds half his level to his Spellkiller checks.

Notes: Some people I've presented this too, have thought it was overpowered. But I argue that causes a fighter to spend skill points on Sense Motive if he wants to use it effectively (giving him greater out of combat versatility) and that it wouldn't be useful against quickened spells, which would force Casters to plan around fighters (GASP ROLE REVERSAL!)

Level 5: Weapon Training 1
Weapon Training 1 Is nearly identical to Weapon Training 1 from the CRB, except that it allows fighters to use weapon specific feats for all weapons in his Training Group.

Level 6: Bonus Feat

Level 7: Armor Training 2
Armor Training 2 Normal Armor Training, but with the addition of Light Fortification (25%) when wearing Medium or Heavy Armor.

Level 8: Bonus Feat

Level 9: Weapon Training 2
Weapon Training 2 Is essentially the same, except that the new weapon group gets the same treatment as the first group. So +2/+2 to both weapon Groups. All feats apply.

Level 10: Bonus Feat

Level 11: Armor Training 3
Armor Training 3 Same regular benefits, but a Fighter also gets to add his Armor and Shield enhancement bonus to their Touch AC. He also gains Fortification (50%)

Level 12: Bonus Feat

Level 13: Weapon Training 3
Weapon Training 3 Same as WT 1 and 2, but now we're adding the ability to ignore the first 5 points of DR when using any weapon training group the Fighter has chosen.

Level 14: Bonus Feat

Level 15: Armor Training 4
Armor Training 4: Same as normal, but Enhancement bonus is now added as DR and fighter gains Greater Fortification (75%).

Level 16: Bonus Feat

Level 17: Weapon Training 4
b]Weapon Training 4[/b]: Same as 1, 2 and 3, but now you can ignore the first 10 points of DR.

Level 18: Bonus Feat

Level 19: Armored Colossus
b]Armored Colossus[/b]: New name for Armor master, and for good reason. The fighter doubles his Enhancement bonus, which doubles the bonus to Touch and DR. And he is immune to Critical/Precision damage when wearing Medium or Heavy Armor. Additionally, the Fighter has no ACP or Dex limits to his armor.

Level 20: Bonus Feat & Weapon Master
Weapon Master: The Fighter is proficient with all weapons and applies all of his feats and Weapon Training bonuses to any weapon he holds. In addition, he cannot be disarmed while holding a weapon, he auto-confirms all criticals, he deals maximum damage any time he hits, he doesn't auto-miss on a natural 1, and the crit mod of the weapon he holds immediately increases by 1.

Is this op? Maybe, but I'd rather start out too strong and get it whittled down, then start out so weak and never get anything back.

Sovereign Court

I personally don't like any class that can auto-negate crits/precision damage. One of the very best parts of Pathfinder -to me- was reducing the creatures immune to crits and precision damage to swarms, elementals, and incorporeal undead (and you can still crit/precision them if you have a ghost touch weapon).


I partially agree. I wouldn't mind him having a resource to spend or a number of uses per day to negate those abilities though. Or auto-apply fortification on his gear for free so there's a percentile chance of negating it.

Silver Crusade

Forgot to Add at level 8

Fighter's Renown The more success a Fighter has, the greater his reputation grows. At level 8 a fighter adds 1/2 his Fighter levels to his choice of the following: Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate. Once he has made his choice, he can not change it. At Level 16, he may select an additional skill and again at level 20.

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