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Na, they should get run at level 1. That would be a fair trade.
Na, they should get run at level 1. That would be a fair trade.
The cowardly wizard should in fact be the best class at running away. Which brings me to my next point:
The brave fighter should be the best class for running towards the enemy! They need a way to close the distance without losing power. A Barbarian can pounce. A fighter can charge and then be full-attacked in retaliation.
Unleash the fighter from the full-attack paradigm. Hopefully unleash all characters from the full-attack paradigm.
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If there is one class (besides the monk) that should be able to move and make multiple attacks it should be the fighter.
Personally I'd say that should be the ranger. Fighters are allowed to wear heavier armor, they're not quite so locked into being skirmishers as rangers.
Of course, if you take a skirmishing fighter archetype, that'd be different.
Also, I do think fighters deserve more mobility; but so do melee rangers (and monks). And for barbarians it'd be nice to have an alternative to all barbarians doing Rage Totem.
Yeah, I'm in favor of a new way to do movement and full attacks. Don't know what, but I'm interested in change.
I think the will save is actually fine, but there need to be more plentiful magic items for resisting such effects. If a fighter wants to sacrifice his magic item slots to never be mind controlled, then that should be an option. Will save should be almost as easy to increase as AC.
Proposed new Fighter Power:
- Combat Mobility: After a move, you can use a standard action to attack as if you were attacking with a full attack action, however the number of attacks in this action cannot exceed (1 + your fighter level/3). If adding levels of another class with combat mobility, the class levels stack for determining the total number of attacks.
- Combat Stability: When in combat and moving no more than a 5 foot step in a turn, you receive a bonus to damage equal to your fighter level/2, minimum of 1. This bonus carries over into the next round stacking with itself. The bonus lasts until you take a movement of more than a 5 foot step or until combat ends. This bonus cannot stack higher than your fighter level x 2. If adding levels of another class with combat stability, the class levels stack for determining the total damage bonus.
I could see lots of classes getting something like Combat Mobility, but Stability would be primarily a fighter power.
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Are there any mundane mind control protections? It seems a helm should offer at least some protection, as in a tin foil hat scenario? Maybe there should be a special material that offers a will bonus when worn. Like an adamantite for mental attacks.
I really don't want the fighter to have a base high will save. I just want him to have more/better options for raising that save.
In wacky fighter ideas, how about letting the fighter benefit from off stats.
[Strategic Fighter] At the start of your turn, you may apply your intelligence modifier as a bonus to either attack or damage until the end of your turn. Negative modifiers cannot be added.
[Brash Fighter] You may apply your charisma modifier as a bonus to initiative and will saving throws. Negative modifiers cannot be added.
Not sure what to give Wisdom. It's already a little better than intelligence and charisma. A bonus to AC seems too good and treads on monk ground.
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Back in Pathfinder Beta my notions were some combination of the following;
1) A flat damage bonus to weapon / unarmed damage. +1 at 1st level and +1 per two Fighter levels thereafter.
2) Some sort of defense bonus to Armor class.
3) The ability to swap damage bonuses, attack bonuses (from BAB) and defense bonuses around, like a 'free' point-for-point version of Power Attack (-atk, +dam), or Reckless Attack (-def, +atk), or Accurate Attack (+atk, -dam).
4) The ability to impose weak conditions at lower levels (with a Fort save to resist!), around the power level of sickened, or the 'lamed' condition applied by caltrops, or a beefier version of the dazzled condition, or staggered for 1 round, all while still imposing damage (perhaps half damage for these 'hindering blows?). At higher level, the Fighter could impose these lesser conditions while inflicting full damage, or attempt to impose stronger conditions (nauseated, blinded, stunned) with reduced damage. Options that ended up being gated off by Critical feats to only apply to 10th level Fighters on 5% of hits when tap-dancing during a June hailstorm and wearing a seaweed sarong would instead be possible for a low level fighter on any hit.
5) Built in 'Vital Strike.' No more reliance on full attacks to get all your increasingly plinky iteratives off. Just one big solid hit (or bow shot, whatever) per round, with more dice as levels accrue.
Would stuff like this solve the 'problem' of martials having trouble with spells like wall of force, or fighting flying beasties? No.
Those aren't 'problems' with the class, IMO.
One is a problem with wall of force (an all-or-nothing spell that should be redesigned to be slightly less impervious than the Death Star force field, perhaps being toned down to mere Star Trek levels, able to be beaten down, by force majeur) and the other is a problem with a player who is playing one of the best ranged damage dealers in the game and forgot to buy it a bow.
Not every un-fun or frustrating aspect of playing a martial character needs to be 'fixed' by adding a swack of new powers to the class. Some can be 'fixed' by pruning out things that shouldn't work the way they work anyway (indestructible walls of force) and others by encouraging less 'I have one thing, and that's all I do' builds that end up useless in any situation that doesn't play to their very specific single attack option (rage-lance-pounce, or whatever).
If all a martial can contribute is raw DPS, then it's the system pushing people to make over-specialized damage-dealers, which leads to the inevitable complaint that they are as useful as teats on a bull in any combat where they can't do their one specific thing (or where the encounters success doesn't hinge on large damage numbers). Adding more combat options (applying conditions, for instance), and allowing a Fighter to move numbers around to better adapt to changing circumstances, would free them up to not overspecialize on pure DPS numbers (not that this will stop those prone to do that anyway, but they are their own worst enemies anyway...).
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I want a Master of Arms from the fighter. Simply a feature that allows them to apply weapon specific feats to any weapon theyre proficient in would be amazing for combat versatility.
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@Set: Were you the one who proposed that different classes be able to get more out of weapon/armor enchants? I remember someone writing some in-character examples regarding a kid playing around with the parent's sword, the father showing the kid how he could light the sword on fire, and the mother (who was the owner of the sword and the higher level fighter) being able to wreath their entire body in flame and basically turn into a sword wielding fire elemental.
I've tried to find the post, but have had no luck to date.
Definitely not me.
The idea sounds interesting, although I've always been a fan of weapons that 'grow' with a character, so that, for instance, Amiri the Barbarian could 'unlock' hidden potential within her giant sword, even such oddities as it being revealed to have been made of a special material, but so covered with verdigris and grime that it wasn't obvious until after she got the money to have it alchemically cleaned off (mysteriously the same cost to upgrade to a weapon made of that special material... How odd!). Coin spent on buying a new magic weapon would instead be spent on unlocking ancient power within a current weapon, for instance, and so Amiri could 'discover' that her giant sword was actually the magical sword handed down by frost giant jarls over many centuries, and only needed some TLC (and exactly the amount of gold it would have cost to buy one with those abilities) to unlock the 'hidden potential' of her legacy blade.
It's interesting that the game has had for some time magic items that give different abilities for people with alignment X or class ability Y or who are worshippers of deity Z. Magic items that had some sort of special bonus when used by Fighters could be interesting.
Magic items that interact with spellcasting, or a character's ki pool, or even sneak attack dice, cavalier banner bonuses, etc. already exist, and yet, the Fighter not really having any sort of resource pool or special mechanic (other than a bonus to fear saves and some armor mastery), there haven't been as many items that interact specifically with Fighter class abilities.
Again, an issue that perhaps stems from Fighters not having as many unique class features, other than 'heaploads o' feats.'
Quite a few Pathfinder-era changes could also use some magic item / integration love, such as Domain power related items, Bloodline power related items, Arcane school related items, etc. but that's OT.
First, are we going to see Unchained feats? I hope so, but if not, the fighter needs an ability that allows them to either ignore ability score prerequisites for feats (like Int 13 for Combat Expertise), or have his ability scores count as being higher for the purposes of meeting prerequisites fairly early in the class, although this brings up the issue of making the fight an even stronger dip class.
Fighter needs some abilities that make use of mental stats. Perhaps they could have a choice of tactician, martial artist, leader, where abilities would follow those themes a little, and would use Int, Wis, or Cha, respectively.
I like some stuff like that from the Warblade in the Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords from 3.5...using Int as a bonus to things like Reflex saves, touch AC, Initiative, confirming critical hits, etc...
Fighters, more than any other class, should probably be good with teamwork feats. They should have some options that allows them to share feats like that during combat...they're certainly more suited to that than the Inquisitor is, I think.
I like the idea that (I think) Ryjin brought up earlier about allowing the fighter to "prepare feats" the way a wizard prepares spells each day. That sort of covers the notion that fighters are highly versatile combatants, and good in many areas, while not loading them down with all of that power at the same time. I think it has some thematic issues, but those could be solved with the ability to change X number of selections Y times per day, allowing the fighter to adapt in combat, possibly.
Hopefully there will also be rules for Unchained full attack combat to give martial characters a better combination of mobility and effectiveness.
I already give all the 2+Int characters 4+Int in my games, or 3+Int+1 free rank each level in a thematic skill (for example, wizards get Knowledge: Arcana, Clerics and Paladins get K: Religion, etc...).
I'm on the fence as to whether I feel fighters should gain a good Will save, or just better abilities to augment their save. Personally, I'd think they should have a good Reflex, since they're focused in physical training, and should have an expanded Bravery bonus...probably start it at +2 to your choice of fear, compulsion, etc... then increase it by 1 per X levels, adding +1 to another type of save.
I'd like to see some of the stuff from Tome of Battle that was more mundane in nature brought over...stuff from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven I seem to recall being less supernatural in nature.
So, an idea that I worked with back in 3.5 for a while, was that fighters gained multiple lines of bonus feats that they could switch between where at level 6 feats would branch, and you would select 2 different feats, one for each "column" and could swap between them. Then, at level 12, they would branch again, and at 18 a final time.
So it would look something like this:
6. Bonus feat 1 | Bonus feat 2
8. Bonus feat 1 | Bonus feat 2
10. Bonus feat 1 | Bonus feat 2
12. Bonus feat 1A | Bonus feat 1B || Bonus feat 2A | Bonus feat 2B
14. Bonus feat 1A | Bonus feat 1B || Bonus feat 2A | Bonus feat 2B
16. Bonus feat 1A | Bonus feat 1B || Bonus feat 2A | Bonus feat 2B
18. 1A | 1B || 1C | 1 D || 2A | 2B || 2 C | 2D
20. 1A | 1B || 1C | 1 D || 2A | 2B || 2 C | 2D
So, as an example, at level 6, you could chose Point Blank Shot for A, and Combat Expertise for B, and would then devote your A feats toward archery, and your B feats toward some combat maneuver (let's say Trip).
6. Point Blank Shot | Combat Expertise
8. Precise Shot | Improved Trip
10. Rapid Shot | Greater Trip
Then, at 12, these trees would split again, so you could have two branching focuses for each broader discipline:
12. Manyshot/Dodge | Fury's Fall/Death or Glory
14. Clustered Shot/Mobility | Felling Smash/Lunge
16. Snap Shot/Shot on the Run | Drag Down/Strike Back
In this case, the fighter could be using one option in the left hand column for full attacks with a bow, or the other option for instances where he needs to be mobile, and could use the first option in the right hand column when he's fighting foes that he can trip, or the second option when fighting larger foes (who he is likely not going to be able to trip).
Then at 18, these would split further, where each existing option would gain 2 more, so Snap Shot would branch twice, Shot on the Run would branch twice, etc...resulting in 8 feats selected at 18 and 20.
The way I handled this was that it took a swift action to change focus. While we were using this idea, the few people who built fighters would use their level 1, 2 and 4 bonus feats, and their standard feats to define the character's primary focus, and to pick up feats that they wanted access to full time, and then would build upon their main role with one tree at 6, while using the second tree to build in an alternative option. One could be focused on offense, while the other is looking toward defense, or it could be melee combat vs. ranged, or two different sorts of combat maneuvers.
We ended up with more varied fighters without dramatically increasing the power level of the fighter: they had more options, and could therefore adapt to more situations, but they weren't bringing much more power to bear at any one time.
It gets a bit complicated when you hit level 12, but it was manageable.
I'd think something along these lines might be the way to go, perhaps including some class features that work this way as well.
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I like the idea of a "budget" of exotic weapons. Say 1 exotic weapon per 4 levels. You can pick up a weapon, train for a day or so, and know how to use it, but if you go over budget, you have to "forget" another one to make room. Basically you "got rusty" because you're focusing on different weapons now.
As a corollary, fighters should be able to draw and sheathe weapons very quickly, so that being a master of many weapons is actually an attractive thing.
The ability to don armor more quickly might not be very powerful, but it's a nice little thing, if you're attacked at night.
I like the earlier idea of taking the fighter archetypes - who are generally very valid concepts - and upgrading them so that they deliver on their promise.
Perhaps split the Phalanx Fighter into two archetypes: one for solo-polearmist, and one who actually fights in formations. The first one might be more of a Combat Patrol kind of type, the second would be good at providing additional shielding to his compatriots, and absolutely indestructible if you stick a couple of them into a formation, because they stack their bonuses with each other very nicely.
The crossbow master might never fire as fast as the longbow archer - why make two weapons identical? - but his bolts hit way harder. As in, the crossbow is a shotgun and the longbow is more like an uzi. They're both good for different things. The crossbow master might get DR-penetrating shots, or even start shooting at touch AC at some point. His damage dice rack up nicely and Vital Strike looks good on him. He becomes able to move while reloading, so that he's actually a fairly mobile human cannon.
The mobile fighter will deliver on the idea of moving through a crowd, smacking down enemies left and right.
The dirty fighter will fight really dirty, inflicting lots of nasty conditions, on the level of a proper debuffing Witch - but without needing magic or being quite so fragile.
The mounted warrior will be able to ride horses and dragons, and not be dismayed by a little bit of different terrain. Also, his mount will be tough.
The Officer is a bit of an odd archetype. He has a variety of battlefield manipulation tricks up his sleeve that teach us that not just God-Wizards do that sort of thing. He also inspires his troops; good for a party of PCs, but especially potent in campaigns where the PCs lead armies. He's even able (somehow, I don't know how yet) to shield lower-level troops from the worst things AoE-attackers can do to them. Perhaps a "skirmish formation... now!" Command kind of ability, that drastically boosts his troops Reflex saves or just cuts off a % of area damage.
I think the idea of the fighter being able to prepare feats everyday is a great idea, it could be something like this:
Martial Preparation: Techniques, maneuvers and stances have been beaten into the fighter over the years and he only needs to spend sometime to retrain and utilize them effectively. The fighter can train a set of combat feats he has not learned at the beginning of each day, the number of these feats equals the number of bonus feats he has, the fighter can gain the benefit of this set of feats for one minute, this ability can be used a number of time per day equal to half his fighter level.
I can't see how this is overpowered, the brawler can do this with a smaller number of feats with the advantage not being limited by a set list of feats chosen at the beginning of the day.
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all the fighter needs are more skill points, and automatic scaling with combat feats- so taking improved will automatically get you greater as you level up.
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Certain feats should scale with the fighter. As an example improved initiative can increase as to +6 at level 7 and end up at +8 at level 11 or 13.
He should be able to move and make multiple attacks, even if it is with a penalty. It is not like his 2nd attacks are likely to miss.
Some of my ideas such as the good will save and extra skill points were mentioned by others.
And give him perception as a class skill<----I still don't understand why this was never fixed.
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Bah, I think Perception should be split in two. The part that governs Surprise is just too important for a skill, and should be made something like Concentration. The "Search" part is still nice to have, but no longer so important that every class is coming up with justifications why this class deserves Perception as a class skill.
Everyone NEEDS it. I think too many classes (alchemist!) get it. It should only be the stealthy/nervous classes like ranger, ninja/rogue, monk and maybe gunslinger who get it. Classes that go above and beyond the normal training.
I think something they should do is if they keep weapon training, make it better, more than just bonus to attack and damage rolls. I'm talking specific things based on the weapon goups themselves.
First off, weapon training should start first level, showing that this fighter is skilled in the use of these weapons. Let it show where he came from. If he came from a farm, he'd be more inclined to choose heavy blades or polearms, as those are similar to the tools he used. If he comes from the edge of soiety, axes and bows to show his skill at hunting or his work in cutting down trees. In short, weapon training should reflect the fighters character, where he's from, how he was raised. A fighter using a rapier would come off more charming than the fighter with a greataxe lugged over his shoulder.
Secondly, in addition to the damage, getting higher level should give bonuses with that weapon group when wielded. Whenever he gets weapon training, in addition to choosing a new group, all other weapon groups get a special ability. Hammers get bonuses on sundering items, bows get better range, heavy blades cause bleed, light blades give sneak attack damage, monk weapons give extra attacks, allowing a lessened version of FoB, natural attacks get upgraded from secondary to primary, and primaries don't get treated as secondary attacks when used with the full-attack option, close weapons allow you to move around the enemy, without provoking AoO, and lessen the effctiveness of armor. Give us more bang for our buck. Don't just give us fire crackers, give us that big, booming mortar, let us shine as we cross the battlefield, our weapons showing more than just damage that we can wield those weapons.
Third, do away with weapon mastery. For a capstone ability it's ok. Can't be disarmed, auto-crits and increased crit multiplier. But it takes away from the fighter by restricting us farther by only being able to use it with one weapon. Not even the weapon group. Sure it can't be disarmed, but all you need is an enchanted weapon to sunder it or a spell to destroy or send it away, or even keep you from getting close. A better thing would be either a group mastery ability or some sort of ability that better shows off the versatility. Part of it could be that when you take can take a full-attack action as a standard action, as stated before, but you can also draw and holster weapons from your weapon groups as you please for each attack. Use a mace to sweep an opponent of his feet, then draw an axe to finish him, then turn and draw your bow, releasing an arrow at the enemy running towards your allies and finish it by using your whip to grapple that enemy that's been harrying you, and drag him in for the kill. Something like that would help show that the fighter isn't a one trick pony, that he may not be the best at everything, but he's able to bring it all together to be more.
Like I said, that's just my idea for weapon training and mastery. They're both abilities that are really just lacking and need more meat on their bones so that the fighter can sit at the big boy table.
I don't know why everyone want fighter to have good will saves, it is not fair fair to other class with two weak saves because they don't have the extra feats to fix that. However, I know it sucks for fighter to lose wills saves when they are not supposed to be story wise, so I got something that I think it's more fair and suitable instead.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.” If fighter's character level is level 1 and is blinded permanently, he may replace his first bonus feats for 10 feet of blindsight.
Practice makes perfect(EX): At Level 1, fighter may pick a number of skills or exotic weapon equal to 2 + his intelligent modifier (min 2) that he always practise with, and gain 1/2 his fighter levels rounded down (min +1) to that skill. This bonus only apply when out of combat. And gain proficiency to that many number of exotic weapon. Example, you have +1 intelligent modifier, so you may pick up to 3. You could pick 2 skills such as perception and sense of motive and one weapon such as katana.
Battle Focus(EX): At level 2, fighter can pick either will saves or reflex saves to focus, then he gains +1 to that saves while during combat. The bonus increase by +1 for every 4 levels. Upon level 10, this bonus is double against fear if picked will saves, or can not be surprised if picked reflex saves. This ability replace bravery.
Fighter's Training(EX): A true fighter trained in all types of combats. At level 5, fighter gains +1 bonus to both attack, damage and any combat maneuver checks only when he is using weapons that he is proficient with. Upon level 14, if the fighter has no feats that grant bonus to a selected weapon(such as weapon focus), the bonus from this class feature is doubled. This ability replace Weapon Training.
Crossing Field(EX): At level 20, the fighter has mastered his footwork and techniques. While during combat, he can choose to make an additional move action that can only be used for moving or five foot steps in his turn. This move action must not exceed 1/2 of his base movement speed. Alternately, he may make an other standard action that can only be use for attack or preform combat maneuver at your highest base attack bonus. If the fighter has weapon focus feat, the weapon he chosen for that feat can not be disarmed. This ability replaced Weapon Mastery.
That's what I think would be fun to play as a fighter while not too much. If you want to play a blind swordsman, you can. If you want to play a smart fighter, you can have decent skills outside of combat, or you can focus on battle and pick exotic weapon instead. You can be brave and have good will saves while you have your guards up, or you can always on the look out and not get surprised. You can be a good fighter overall or you can focus on your chosen weapon instead. Play smart and move around alot, or you can keep hitting things and chase after it until it is dead.
But personally, I don't think pathfinder's fighter is too bad, they just need some good fighter only feats for in and out of combat.
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What Martial classes beside Fighter has 2 bad saves?
Rangers have 2 good saves
Paladins have 2 good and get cha to saves
Monks all good
Gunslinger 2 good
Barbs get 1 good, Rage bonus to will, and the ability for the class to raise saves
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Bah, I think Perception should be split in two. The part that governs Surprise is just too important for a skill, and should be made something like Concentration. The "Search" part is still nice to have, but no longer so important that every class is coming up with justifications why this class deserves Perception as a class skill.
Everyone NEEDS it. I think too many classes (alchemist!) get it. It should only be the stealthy/nervous classes like ranger, ninja/rogue, monk and maybe gunslinger who get it. Classes that go above and beyond the normal training.
I do agree with this. I also wish hide and move silently should have been left alone. Being invisible does not mean you are quiet.
edit: I think that as long as the commoner has it however that all the PC classes should get it.
If the Fighter gets a unchained version but doesn't get a good will save, I think it should at least get a bonus equal to it's level vs fear. I also think they should get 4 skill points per level but I say that about every class that has less.
The Swashbuckler only get's one good save unless they changed that for the final version.
If the Fighter gets a unchained version but doesn't get a good will save, I think it should at least get a bonus equal to it's level vs fear. I also think they should get 4 skill points per level but I say that about every class that has less.
The Swashbuckler only get's one good save unless they changed that for the final version.
Cavalier also has one save.
Maybe the Slayer?
I don't know why everyone want fighter to have good will saves, it is not fair fair to other class with two weak saves because they don't have the extra feats to fix that. However, I know it sucks for fighter to lose wills saves when they are not supposed to be story wise, so I got something that I think it's more fair and suitable instead.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.” If fighter's character level is level 1 and is blinded permanently, he may replace his first bonus feats for 10 feet of blindsight.
Practice makes perfect(EX): At Level 1, fighter may pick a number of skills or exotic weapon equal to 2 + his intelligent modifier (min 2) that he always practise with, and gain 1/2 his fighter levels rounded down (min +1) to that skill. This bonus only apply when out of combat. And gain proficiency to that many number of exotic weapon. Example, you have +1 intelligent modifier, so you may pick up to 3. You could pick 2 skills such as perception and sense of motive and one weapon such as katana.
Battle Focus(EX): At level 2, fighter can pick either will saves or reflex saves to focus, then he gains +1 to that saves while during combat. The bonus increase by +1 for every 4 levels. Upon level 10, this bonus is double against fear if picked will saves, or can not be surprised if picked reflex saves. This ability replace bravery.
Fighter's Training(EX): A true fighter trained in all types of combats. At level 5, fighter gains +1 bonus to both attack, damage and any combat maneuver checks only when he is using weapons that he is proficient with. Upon level 14, if the fighter has no feats that grant bonus to a selected weapon(such as weapon focus), the bonus from this class feature is doubled. This ability replace Weapon
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Rogues should have better will saves, and fighters already fight well. Their problem is that other than fighting they are not all that useful.
If he is only going to be good at combat then he would be improved by being able to do things other than hit hard. Something like combat patrol should be something he can do anyway. The standstill feat should be something a fighter can do, but not just to adjacent enemies.
I agree Rogues should get two good saves but then I think most classes should except full(9th lv) arcane casters and the Summoner.
If the Fighter gets a unchained version but doesn't get a good will save, I think it should at least get a bonus equal to it's level vs fear. I also think they should get 4 skill points per level but I say that about every class that has less.
The Swashbuckler only get's one good save unless they changed that for the final version.
Cavalier also has one save.
Maybe the Slayer?
Slayers get Fort/Ref.
Gotcha. Didnt have access to my playtest document, so I wasn't sure.
Slayers get Fort/Ref.If the Fighter gets a unchained version but doesn't get a good will save, I think it should at least get a bonus equal to it's level vs fear. I also think they should get 4 skill points per level but I say that about every class that has less.
The Swashbuckler only get's one good save unless they changed that for the final version.
Cavalier also has one save.
Maybe the Slayer?
Swashbucklers will soon be joining Rogues and Ninjas at the "Obscenely Horrible Saves" club.
Swashbucklers will soon be joining Rogues and Ninjas at the "Obscenely Horrible Saves" club.If they didn't fix that somehow. Which seems possible, if perhaps not likely.
I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.
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I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.Swashbucklers will soon be joining Rogues and Ninjas at the "Obscenely Horrible Saves" club.If they didn't fix that somehow. Which seems possible, if perhaps not likely.
Oh, I get that.
I just try to always note the stuff we don't know for sure when discussing the ACG. Seems worth doing, given that everyone always seems to talk about the playtest versions like nothing will've changed when the book comes out.
Swashbucklers will soon be joining Rogues and Ninjas at the "Obscenely Horrible Saves" club.Slayers get Fort/Ref.If the Fighter gets a unchained version but doesn't get a good will save, I think it should at least get a bonus equal to it's level vs fear. I also think they should get 4 skill points per level but I say that about every class that has less.
The Swashbuckler only get's one good save unless they changed that for the final version.
Cavalier also has one save.
Maybe the Slayer?
At least Swashbucklers can spend next turn's Swift Action to add a tertiary stat to their saving throw. Before the roll is made, naturally.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I haven't read the whole thread, but to my way of thinking there's one big thing that the fighter needs to be "unchained" from that's more important than anything else:
Realism.
"You can't shoot a bow that many times in 6 seconds!"
"You can't jump that far!"
"You can't just cut through a door like it's butter!"
"You can't wrestle something that big!"
"You can't cut something incorporeal without magic!"
"You can't break that world record!"
You can't, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't... No, you can't. That's why I'm playing a fantasy game starring someone who isn't YOU.
Currently, the name of the game is "if real people can't do it, then fantasy people can't* do it either".
I want my fighter to stop the dragon's bite by grabbing him by the teeth. And then body slam him.
I want my fighter to swing his sword and bat your enervation right back at you.
I want my fighter to get save-or-die effects at the same level your wizard does. Maybe even earlier, since I'm supposed to be good at killing things.
I want my fighter to have things he can do that no magic spell can duplicate.
Unchain the fighter from "realism". Everything else will follow.
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^^^^ ALL OF THIS ^^^^
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I haven't read the whole thread, but to my way of thinking there's one big thing that the fighter needs to be "unchained" from that's more important than anything else:
Realism.
"You can't shoot a bow that many times in 6 seconds!"
"You can't jump that far!"
"You can't just cut through a door like it's butter!"
"You can't wrestle something that big!"
"You can't cut something incorporeal without magic!"
"You can't break that world record!"You can't, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't... No, you can't. That's why I'm playing a fantasy game starring someone who isn't YOU.
Currently, the name of the game is "if real people can't do it, then fantasy people can't* do it either".
I want my fighter to stop the dragon's bite by grabbing him by the teeth. And then body slam him.
I want my fighter to swing his sword and bat your enervation right back at you.
I want my fighter to get save-or-die effects at the same level your wizard does. Maybe even earlier, since I'm supposed to be good at killing things.
I want my fighter to have things he can do that no magic spell can duplicate.
Unchain the fighter from "realism". Everything else will follow.
** spoiler omitted **
I believe that you just won the thread.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't read the whole thread, but to my way of thinking there's one big thing that the fighter needs to be "unchained" from that's more important than anything else:
Realism.
"You can't shoot a bow that many times in 6 seconds!"
"You can't jump that far!"
"You can't just cut through a door like it's butter!"
"You can't wrestle something that big!"
"You can't cut something incorporeal without magic!"
"You can't break that world record!"You can't, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't... No, you can't. That's why I'm playing a fantasy game starring someone who isn't YOU.
Currently, the name of the game is "if real people can't do it, then fantasy people can't* do it either".
I want my fighter to stop the dragon's bite by grabbing him by the teeth. And then body slam him.
I want my fighter to swing his sword and bat your enervation right back at you.
I want my fighter to get save-or-die effects at the same level your wizard does. Maybe even earlier, since I'm supposed to be good at killing things.
I want my fighter to have things he can do that no magic spell can duplicate.
Unchain the fighter from "realism". Everything else will follow.
Spoiler:Unless there's magic involved.
Quoting just because everyone should read this at least 3 times! (Especially game designers!)
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I liked Tels' idea on the first page, that fighters get to expand on the space of their 5-ft. step action as they level. Sure, a Barbarian May pounce to get off his full-attack, but that's because he isn't trained like a fighter to move through a battlefield skillfully and weave his way past enemy attacks the same way. He gets attacks of opportunities but barbarian doesn't afraid of anything in a different way than the fighter does.
The fighter should have the feel of the martial character who is ALWAYS one step ahead of you in swordplay, ALWAYS able to predict what stance you're going into, ALWAYS seemingly able to counter any sort of fighting that's just less skilled. A barbarian might get a good hit off with his ridiculously large sword because he's somehow swinging it impossibly fast and impossibly hard, and a rogue might throw you off by taking advantage of an injury or distraction. But the fighter should have the feel of a trained warrior who has made it this far, and is better than a common warrior, because he's just plain better.
To unleash the fighter, I'd propose improving or changing the abilities as they stand (to mesh with existing archetypes) but then change what their even-leveled bonus is. I'm a big fan of Paizo's "pools" system they've been using on classes like the Magus, Gunslinger, and the upcoming Swashbuckler. I think that the fighter should get one of these that lets them put their training to work in a way that's more situational.
The points would allow for various abilities when the fighter spends them by default: a +2 to CMB for a round, +1 to attack, +1 dodge bonus to AC, bonus to Acrobatics, etc./whatever. Then, every even level the fighter would be able to pull out a Martial Mastery that lets them use these points for other things OR get a bonus feat. These extra point things would be things that let the fighter do feats of daring or prowess that show why he's the best, why training matters.
At low levels by spending a point he could add a dirty trick to his attack, sucker punch a wizard to silence them by forcing them to spend a round spitting chiclets, or get a free sunder attempt on the next melee attack that misses him. At higher levels he can do the absolutely insane things mentioned above: stop a dragon's bite by grabbing his teeth or responding by doing some oral surgery on a disgusting fang. He can try to "parry" a spell ("I've fought enough wizards in my time, you have to time it juuuuust right..."). He should be able to do with his weapons and martial prowess what others would think impossible.
This way a fighter can be the feat-cannon and a simpler build for newer players or have abilities that situationally let him counter enemies he's trained to beat. In a world with magic everywhere it's pretty easy to imagine people without magical skills working very hard to fight those with them on a regular basis (think of Avatar: there are non-benders who specifically train to shut down benders!). This, along with more static abilities for the pool that come with leveling and improvements to abilities that are already there would present a character adapting to what he's facing and striving to overcome his enemies through skill, training, and force of will.
To cap this off, the fighter should be able to replenish his pool by pulling off things that are daring, rolling natural 20s, killing a foe without getting hit, whatever. That way he just keeps chugging along, able to fight all day adapting all the way to new challenges. I'm not familiar with the "talent fighter" that's been brought up in this thread so far, so forgive me if this sounds like what's already there.
I think an ability pool, increase to skills per level, an improvement to 5-ft. step at higher levels, an improvement to the current class abilities, and then more fighter-specific feats to make picking a bonus feat more of a choice would go a long ways towards unchaining the fighter.
I think the unleashed fighter's niche should be the martial character that clearly has the leg up in adaptability, training, luck, and raw puissance. Let the cavalier inspire the grunts, fight for honor, and lead the charges,. Let the barbarian swing wildly in his frothing rage and push through battle like a bull, bloodied and exhausted at the end. Let the rogue trick opponents, stab them in the back, and overcome with deception. Let the ranger specialize in a style that suits him best to fight his quarry and track them to the ends of the earth. Let the paladin destroy the evil things and pray their gods will get them through their battles. Let the magus study his books and dilute his time spent training for any eventuality. Let the wizards have their spells, the sorcerers their blood, the clerics their religions, the Druids their sylvan lore, the alchemists their potions, the summoners their twisted pets.
All the fighter needs is a blade or a bludgeon, the training he's honed to a razor's edge, and an enemy to fight.