By "combat manoeuvre" do you mean trip, grapple, disarm, sunder, reposition, dirty trick, steal, and drag? Because those are all standard actions, so you can move however you want before you perform them. Of course, some of them require you to be moving, namely bull rush and overrun.
If that's your meaning, then yes you can five foot step or tumble past someone before you trip them.
I suspect, however, you may mean something else?
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I think we're going to need more information on what you're actually trying to do, nocluerogue.
You can generally take a five foot step at any point during your turn, so long as you haven't actually moved any distance during that round. So, if you've already moved 30 feet to your target, and it's still five feet out of your reach, you can't take a five foot step to get closer.
A combat maneuver is simply an attack roll. It doesn't matter which one you're choosing to perform, almost all of them can be performed after you've used a five foot step. You do not need Acrobatics to five foot step, or to perform a combat maneuver.
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sorry had problem posting under other account
ok this is my first post, (ok second same one different place) I have always tried to be more of the spirit than the letter, but I do have a question or 2
1, can you combine combat manoeuvre with a 5' step and if not why not
2, using the combat manoeuvre guide lines you can attach a skill, lets say acrobatics, to a manoeuver. the prime example of this is tumbling. but in conjunction with the above question. take the following scenarioyou have a character with acrobatics and you wish to use the 5' step as the initiator to a combat manoeuvre, under acrobatics (reading sort of between the lines) I could perform this kind of manoeuvre at half my movement rate, I don't want to go in to figures as I think this will just cloud the issue. and I know under the 5' rule the guide is you cant move more than 5' but by combining combat manoeuver with the 5' step, have I not now increased this (without increasing the difficulty by 10) to half my movement rate?
again sorry if this is in the wrong place
ok thank you for you responses,
the Kruk of the idea is this, this is taken from the book.
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity, others require a specific action.the pertinent sentence being "When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform."
action - 5' step, initiator of combat maneuver
maneuver - acrobatic/tumblingresult = being able to move more than 5' with a 5' step
no don't have a move action left as have done a move action equivalent and no attack left as already attacked and tripped opponent.
by using acrobatics in conjunction with the 5' step as a combat maneuver I can now move half my movement rate on a...
I think you're confused about what a "Combat Maneuver" is. In Pathfinder, it's a very specific set of actions that you can use, which includes Grapple, Trip, Reposition, Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Disarm, Drag, Overrun, Steal, and Sunder. These are Combat Maneuvers. You can't just make up a new one (in your case, trying to move more than 5' for free).
As far as the 5' step part goes, one important key point about 5' steps... you cannot take a movement action during the same turn that you took a 5' step. In other words, taking a 5' step means you can't move again that turn. You can do other actions that require a Move action (such as standing up from prone, or pulling out a scroll) but you can't actually MOVE again once you've used your 5' step, unless you have some special power that allows it.
I hope that answers your questions.
Yeah, tumbling is normal movement with a skill check (acrobatics) in order to avoid certain factors involved in moving around enemies (attacks of opportunity). Since it is a move action that involves actually moving from one place to another, you cannot also take a five foot step before tumbling.
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I'm afraid you're still a bit confused here--there is a definitive list of Combat Maneuvers, which cartmanbeck listed off. It's not a "do something different", although you could house rule in some new maneuvers, they just wouldn't be part of the actual rules. The "you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform" is because there are 3 combat maneuvers that are not standard actions like the rest of them--trips, disarms, and sunders are all considered attacks, so that you can use them in place of one of your attacks during a full attack action.
What you are talking about is tumbling using the Acrobatics skill. As others have mentioned this combo is not necessary or possible, because the 5' step doesn't provoke so you don't need to make an Acrobatics check to tumble for that 5' step. The tumbling rules are for when you'd be doing normal movement as a move action, moving through a threatened square which would provoke an AoO, and trying to beat their CMD with your Acrobatics in order to not get the AoO against you. If the Acrobatics check fails to beat them CMD, you take an AoO but get to finish your movement.
Also no, a 5' step is not a move action. It is movement, but is considered a special action of its own.
no need to confuse the issue with acrobatics or manoeuvers. it's really quite simple:
5' step = no more movement.
move more than 5' = no 5' step.
it's right under the rules for 5' step (bolded for emphasis)
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
ok take this scenario, i am playing a Halfling rogue with improved feint, acrobatics skill and a bluff. Baddy is 10' way so I tumble and faint up to him (requiring 2 separate rolls)(there is some bleating about I am getting 2 move actions) 1 acrobatics and 1 bluff for the faint ( no need for the 5' as I have moved also held in reserve in case the 2 move actions become untenable) I make an attack action and trip the baddy end of my go unless he try's to stand up on his initiative which will give me an AoO against him, next round I feint him again (as my move action) them I do my attack action (what ever that may be) then I tumble out 10' requiring a roll by using the 5' step leaving him open to one of the other players to get in close, and moving me out of his effective attack range unless he follows in some way or extremely long reach lol, I have not gone so far as increasing the difficulty by 10 (as per acrobatics) so I can get my full movement rate yet as the group (even though I have done it for weeks) don't like it. but I do get away with it and I don't want certain players to cry to much.
does this make things clearer?
By the rules (and assuming I'm understanding you correctly), this is how this would actually work.
Round 1
1) Use your move action to move up next to the bad guy. He doesn't get an AoO so you don't need to tumble/acrobatics in (you can if you want to just be flashy, but its not required, nor does it have any game mechanical effect regardless of your success or failure).
2) You now have just a standard action left. You can attack (trip) or you can feint. Not both.
Sidenote: You cannot use acrobatics to move closer and trip him both with just your standard action. The action needed for the trip combat maneuver is an attack, not movement.
Round 2
1) Use your standard action to attack.
2) Use your move action to either feint him.
3) Take a 5' step back (no tumbling/acrobatics needed). He does not get an AoO on you per the rules of the 5' step.
Sidenote: If you are taking a 5' step, then you are moving 5', and only 5'. There is nothing you can do to increase that to 10' in this scenario.
If you don't want other players to cry to much, then start following the rules as written and intended, instead of convincing your GM to allow you extra actions - or convince him to grant all the other players similar bonuses to their characters.
Manipulating the language to get the most obscure outcome you can conceive of won't get you far in these forums :). Here we will tell you how it actually works, then if your gaming group wants to do things differently, then that is fine, but at that point it is house rules and no longer according to the books.
I am open to more acceptable routes to this end if any can be suggested?
There are a couple of ways to do similar to the above on a limited basis.
Quick runners shirt (once per day) is the most direct.
ok take this scenario, i am playing a Halfling rogue with improved feint, acrobatics skill and a bluff. Baddy is 10' way so I tumble and faint up to him (requiring 2 separate rolls)(there is some bleating about I am getting 2 move actions) 1 acrobatics and 1 bluff for the faint ( no need for the 5' as I have moved also held in reserve in case the 2 move actions become untenable) I make an attack action and trip the baddy end of my go unless he try's to stand up on his initiative which will give me an AoO against him, next round I feint him again (as my move action) them I do my attack action (what ever that may be) then I tumble out 10' requiring a roll by using the 5' step leaving him open to one of the other players to get in close, and moving me out of his effective attack range unless he follows in some way or extremely long reach lol, I have not gone so far as increasing the difficulty by 10 (as per acrobatics) so I can get my full movement rate yet as the group (even though I have done it for weeks) don't like it. but I do get away with it and I don't want certain players to cry to much.
does this make things clearer?
If I read this right I can understand the 'bleating' as you put it!
first, as you quite rightly say you have used two move actions, so no standard action for you to trip until next round.
Second, you have moved 10' then feinted so you don't have 5' in reserve. Unless you have some ability that let's you do so, you cannot perform an action in the middle of a move. And the only ones that I'm aware of are flyby attack and spring attack, and spring attack is limited to an attack, so no feinting allowed.
here is a side question. tumbling? can you move your full movement rate
Sure, by increasing the DC by 10 to avoid any AoO's that would otherwise be generated.
When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10.
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We're here to discuss the rules for playing Pathfinder. And those are very clear - what you are doing is explicitly prohibited by the rules.
If you want to try and do that in your game because you don't like what the other players are getting away with, that's your decision. Personally I think it's a very bad decision, and it sounds like not the best play group. You'd be better off trying to find a different group to play with.
If the bad guy is 10' away then you need a move action to move up to him. If you then take a second move action to attempt a feint that's it; you don't have anything else you can do this round. So you're better off attempting that trip. Note that until you get improved trip this is going to provoke an AoO from your opponent.
Next round you start off right up next to him. You can use your move action to feint, and your standard action to attack. At this point you can take a 5' step away from your opponent, because you've not moved any distance this round.
You can't get more than 5' away from him except by using your move action to move, forgoing feint. If you do that, you can use your acrobatics skill to try and avoid the attack of opportunity you would otherwise provoke by leaving a threatened square. Using acrobatics this way generally restricts you to moving at most half your movement speed. It is this speed restriction that can be overcome by increasing the difficulty of the Acrobatics check by 10.
There is nothing like this you can do to increase the distance moved by a 5' step to greater than 5'
Jaunt Boots is another option for you. 3/day you can take a 15' step instead of a 5' step.
If other players are being treated more favourably than you, trying to rewrite the rules or worse, manipulate them, isn't the best way to deal with the issue. That isn't a rules issue at all. Talk to your group about your feelings. If that doesn't resolve the problem, maybe they aren't the group for you.