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There have been many threads with questions regarding Bardic Performances, Versatile Performance and other related questions regarding the bard so I think it is time for FAQ response. I thought I try to focus on the ones I think are the most important ones.
Since the Devs wants one question per thread let’s kick off with Bardic Performance
- Am I using the Performance skill when I use inspire courage and other Bardic Performances that don’t require actual skill rolls?
This question isn’t only restricted to the core bard with his Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Dirge of Doom, Frightening Tune, etc., but the question also pertains to archetypes and their Bardic Performances such as the Savage Skald's Incite Rage (interesting enough The bard cannot target himself with this ability), the Dirge Bard's Haunting Refrain, The Sound Striker's Wordstrike and Weird Words, The Archeologist's Archaeologist's Luck, etc.
The answer is especially important if the Bard is a multiclassed barbarian/bard or if he accepts a Skald’s ranging song (but it is also interesting from a fluff/role playing perspective)
I know a lot of people say it the Bard is not using the Performance skill since no roll is involved, but I think he does use Performance skill.
: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.
Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.
“Bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects” seems to indicate that he is using the perform skill when using Bardic Performance.
“Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both” also ties up with the different kind of performances skills listed under Versatile Performance:
The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
True that most performances do not state that an actual Perform skill check is made, but they do involved a performance all the same.
Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), […] Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
My gut tells me a bard shouldn’t be able to spam all kinds of bardic performances when raging. The Savage Skald's Incite Rage ability seem to indicate that, but if he can I would be more than happy.
Please FAQ for an official response.
All performances require audible and visual components that are created with a performance skill. So the bard is talking, dancing, playing an instrument etc. as long as the performance is active. That is a requirement for a bardic performance but it dont require a performance skill check.
A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.
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Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
Performance is a CHA based skill. So by RAW you cannot use bardic performances while raging.
The rules are badly written but the intent is clear. In the past (D&D3.5) bardic performance had a minimum performance skill rang as a requirement.
I agree, but a lot of of people don't.
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The bard is "doing something" as the bardic performance has an audible or visual component and it should be heard or seen to affect someone.
There is no need for that performance to be good at all. He can be Assurancetourix from the Asterix comic and still be able to affect people with its magical performance.
Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
The bolded part seem a clear indication that he is using the skill, even if he don't need to make any skill check.
YMMV.
Regardless of what you think. Please hit the Faq. I don't think it is clear and this question does pop up again and again.
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I agree that this is a frequently asked question.
(Although that may just be because it isn't a rules question.)
So the bard is talking, dancing, playing an instrument etc. as long as the performance is active.
The 'etc' can also include simply showing off, or shouting inspirational phrases ("KILL THEM ALL!" qualifies to lots of people), or can be reflavored in any of a number of 'boy, I'm hacked off' ways. For that matter, Rage can be reflavored into a number of 'not hacked off' ways.
Either way, unless you're making a skill check (which I think only two bardic things do), you're obviously not making a Charisma based skill check, so you're fine.
So if I don't make a perception check I can't be subjected to gaze attacks?
I think though if my dirge bard doesn't have ro lug a church organ into dungeons to use perform keyboard. (Which I an surebshe does not) why is she prevented from using bardic performance while raging? She never had the pipe organ on hand in the first place but the gMe lets me use perform keyboard to inspire courage without it.
There's no FAQ neccessary as there isn't any ambiguity.
And yet this question comes up again and again. Even in this thread there are posters that think it’s obvious that you don’t use the perform skill.
I think one of the problems is that the bard class is not very well written when it comes to clarity. There is a lot of fluff describing mechanics (or mechanics describing fluff?) and a lot of things are left vague. Versatile performance is a good example of this.
Also the bard comes with a legacy that confuses things even more.
I respect that you think the answer is obvious.
I hope you respect that others don’t agree with you (including some of the most active and respected posters on these messageboards) and as Cheapy stated, this is indeed a Frequently Asked Question (FAQ).
This is what Paizo’s Creative director James Jacobs, involved with designing of the class, has to say on the subject if a Bard can "maintain a performance (say with an instrument) and melee in the same round?"
Okay; I've been thinking this over and rephrased myself better on a similar thread... but basically, here's the trick.
Bardic performance does NOT require you to use a Perform skill that you have ranks in. It doesn't even need a Perform skill at all. Not only is Perform usable untrained, but the bardic performance ability does not require you to make Perform checks of any kind except for a few specific TYPES of bardic performance, such as countersong or distraction.
This means that when you inspire courage, you're not necessarily doing so by playing the flute or banging drums. It's more likely that you're singing or bragging or taunting or dancing or otherwise just showboating to raise your allies' morale. If you WANT to say that your bardic performance is from a particularly rousing violin solo, that's fine... but once it's started you don't have to keep playing the violin if you want to put the violin down and fight or spellcast or whatever because the actual Perform (strings) skill doesn't ever enter the picture.
Is the bard performing the first round, but not when maintaining the Bardic Performance?
edit:
BTW, here is the original question James answered:
Was wondering if anyone can answer this question:
Can a Bard maintain a performance (say with an instrument) and melee in the same round? From what I understand the Bard starts the performance with a standard action but can maintain it with a free action. It makes no sense to me that a bard could maintain a performance on an instrument and fight at the same time but that is what the rules seem to indicate.Thanks for any clarification.
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I think though if my dirge bard doesn't have ro lug a church organ into dungeons to use perform keyboard. (Which I an surebshe does not) why is she prevented from using bardic performance while raging? She never had the pipe organ on hand in the first place but the gMe lets me use perform keyboard to inspire courage without it.
Where is the audible part in that?
Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
Your bard is chanting, shouting, pantomimic attacks and so on, but for sure he is not using Perform (keyboard) on a keyboard he hasn't at hand.
To work inspire courage should be heard or seen.
This is a good question and hopefully it's answered in the Skald section of the ACG, because if a Bard can sing while under Ragesong's effects then he can probably sing if multiclassed Barb.
Definitely using the Perform skill, doesn't matter if it doesn't require a check, or ranks (even if it used to).
Well James's post makes me wonder.
Regardless, it is unclear how RAI should be read and RAI is even more unclear.
Not really. If you're not rolling a die, then you aren't using a skill. This seems completely obvious to me. Don't confuse flavor text with rules text.
Not really. If you're not rolling a die, then you aren't using a skill. This seems completely obvious to me. Don't confuse flavor text with rules text.
Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.
First line of the ability in question. Yes, you use the Perform skill to use bardic performance.
Rolling not required for many of the performances, but it is for some (ex. countersong. Either way, it's the same base ability and requires using a skill (that anyone can use untrained).
Problem is the Bard class is loaded with rules text that could be read as flavor text and the other way around. James's post above shows that pretty clearly and so does the VP ability.
Problem is the Bard class is loaded with rules text that could be read as flavor text and the other way around. James's post above shows that pretty clearly and so does the VP ability.
Nothing in James' text says it's not using the skill, just that you don't have to roll a die to make a check in most instances.
Singing, bragging, taunting, dancing, etc.(as mentioned in James' post) are all forms of performance based on the Perform skill which can be used by ANYONE, even the most non-charismatic schlub you can find. There's no DC to meet, or base need to use more than your body or vocals to use the bardic performance. That's not to say you can't use an instrument, or do an operatic solo with full dress costume, to affect those around you, but you don't have to.
Another thing to take into account is the type of performance you're doing in general terms. Some are visual (dancing, acting, possibly comedy) and some are solely audible (singing, oratory, instrumentals) and the area of effect of the various performances are limited by these and other environmental factors (lighting, background noise, etc). Visuals will effect party members as long as they can see you for inspire courage. So, if you go around a corner in a dungeon while the bard is dancing in the back row, you'd lose that benefit. However, if he was telling a rousing tale, it would be limited to how far away you could hear him. It makes deaf oracles difficult to inspire this way, and causes thunderstones and the silence spell to become effective ways of interfering.
Versatile performance is another issue all together. It doesn't say you use the Perform skill to in place of those other skills. It says that when you use the linked skills that you CAN use the bonus you have in your Perform skill in place of the bonus you have in that actual skill. This is a complete OOC metagaming ability, that has no real reasonable explanation (IMO) outside of trying to give the bards some extra versatility while synergizing with one of the classes general strong suits.
Problem is the Bard class is loaded with rules text that could be read as flavor text and the other way around. James's post above shows that pretty clearly and so does the VP ability.Nothing in James' text says it's not using the skill, just that you don't have to roll a die to make a check in most instances.
I don't agree.
[…..]
This means that when you inspire courage, you're not necessarily doing so by playing the flute or banging drums. It's more likely that you're singing or bragging or taunting or dancing or otherwise just showboating to raise your allies' morale. If you WANT to say that your bardic performance is from a particularly rousing violin solo, that's fine... but once it's started you don't have to keep playing the violin if you want to put the violin down and fight or spellcast or whatever because the actual Perform (strings) skill doesn't ever enter the picture.
My bold.
Again, it could actually be read as you only perform the first round, but not when you maintain it.
The “maintaining the bardic performance is always a free action", could just as well be read as "maintaining the effect from a bardic performance is always a free action".
Versatile performance is another issue all together. It doesn't say you use the Perform skill to in place of those other skills. It says that when you use the linked skills that you CAN use the bonus you have in your Perform skill in place of the bonus you have in that actual skill.
Actually it doesn't say that, but I agree with your reading, but let's save that discussion for my next thread. I’ll PM you when I’ve created the thread (probably won’t happen in July).
No need to be hostile Lazar.
Zark performance is not needed unless the specific bard performance calls for it. If I was not on my phone I would link you to the answer. If nobody finds it I will post it after work. Unfortunately that will not be until another. 7+ hours
edit:added "not".
Here's a couple of newer posts by James on the subject (bards are one of his favorites...mine too =p):
LINK-
Audible or visible components. It's one or the other. So if your Bard is a dancer, they need to see him, but if he's a singer (or plays an instrument), they need to hear him.
Technically, no performance is actually made, but when a Bard is played at my table, I require them to tell me what they're doing for their performance. Most of the Bards are singers, so they say something like, "I'm singing a battle hymn" or something to that effect.
Usually, the audible performance is the most effective one. Darkness, smoke, fogs, walls etc, can all interrupt a visible performance and prevent a player from being affected. Only distance and Silence (or thick walls) will really stop the audible performances.
Also, note that to do that, you don't actually need any ranks in ANY perform skills. There are actually only a VERY FEW bardic performances that require Perform checks, but even those don't require ranks in a performance—they merely require checks.
When a bard activates a bardic performance, he must decide if it's an audio or visual performance—one or the other. It's certainly cool to include what KIND of performance you're doing, be it song or dance or flute or comedy, but that element falls under the aegis of roleplay, not rules.
Bards-It's actually up to the player to decide whether his bardic performance is auditory or visual. The TYPE of performance, be it debate or song or belly dancing or card tricks or horn playing or jokes or insults is 100% flavor for most bardic performances since the performance isn't actually tied to a Perform check in most cases.
So, yes, IMO, maintaining the performance is always a free action and it does not HAVE to be the same performance as originated (though I'd say the same basic type audible or visual). They could start with a violin solo, and then drop the bow in the second round, but maintain with a rallying song as he drew a weapon and attacked or cast a spell at a musical break (again music is just a free action and fluff)...but all in all still a non-rolled use of a skill as I read it.
EDIT:
And yes, relax Lazarx. Question and discussion is fine, as long as you can keep from being rude or condescending about it. Sheesh.
So, yes, IMO, maintaining the performance is always a free action and it does not HAVE to be the same performance as originated (though I'd say the same basic type audible or visual). They could start with a violin solo, and then drop the bow in the second round, but maintain with a rallying song as he drew a weapon and attacked or cast a spell at a musical break (again music is just a free action and fluff)...but all in all still a non-rolled use of a skill as I read it.But if you actually swapped instruments, the instrument swap itself would be at least a move action.
If you wished to draw a different instrument to maintain the performance, or use it for something else, then yes it would follow the normal rules for drawing equipment.
However, the "performance" being maintained can be ANY performance, so you can snap your fingers, click your heels, whistle a tune, even just give a simply rallying shout to keep it going. If you're doing more than the background maintain, then you pay for those actions separately.
I don't see a question here. Other than the rare mix of Bbn and bard it makes no difference. We all agree that it doesn't matter in many cases what your Performance skill # is, right? That a higher skill doesn;t help, right?
We agree that you must be "performing" i.e. making noise or dancing or something, right? Must be audible or visible, right?
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So, yes, IMO, maintaining the performance is always a free action and it does not HAVE to be the same performance as originated (though I'd say the same basic type audible or visual). They could start with a violin solo, and then drop the bow in the second round, but maintain with a rallying song as he drew a weapon and attacked or cast a spell at a musical break (again music is just a free action and fluff)...but all in all still a non-rolled use of a skill as I read it.But if you actually swapped instruments, the instrument swap itself would be at least a move action.If you wished to draw a different instrument to maintain the performance, or use it for something else, then yes it would follow the normal rules for drawing equipment.
However, the "performance" being maintained can be ANY performance, so you can snap your fingers, click your heels, whistle a tune, even just give a simply rallying shout to keep it going. If you're doing more than the background maintain, then you pay for those actions separately.
Inspire Courage (Su): .... Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
AFAIK Inspire courage is the only performance in the CRB that allow you to choose the component, and it say that you choose it at the start of the performance, so it is a sure thing that you can't switch between a audible and a visible component without starting a new performance.
The other performances either have a single specific component or audible and visible components.
The bardic performances don't require the use of the performance skill unless it calls it out. Some do and some don't so check the performance in question.
The bardic performances don't require the use of the performance skill unless it calls it out. Some do and some don't so check the performance in question.
Sorry, but my brain is slow to the unusual extreame heat we now have in Stockholm.
So do you mean a bard/barbarian can use IC or any other bardic performance that don't require a roll while raging?
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The bardic performances don't require the use of the performance skill unless it calls it out. Some do and some don't so check the performance in question.Sorry, but my brain is slow to the unusual extreame heat we now have in Stockholm.
So do you mean a bard/barbarian can use IC or any other bardic performance that don't require a roll while raging?
Since it is maintained as a free action I would say yes. He could just inspire by talking down to his enemies. In any event the line about cha-based skills does not apply because the no skill use is needed. So it works by RAW until the dev team says otherwise.
And again. There are more ways to use the rulebook 1: a rulebook 2 : a guideline.
Raw you can't start inspire courage while in rage because inspire courage uses the perform skill as stated in the Bardic performance section.
If you would shout kill m all to inspire and multiclass with barbarian
it is up to your GM to (not) allow this.
Pro:
In history singing and drumming to inspire courage is a very barbarian thing to do. Cannibals, Vikings and voodoo tribes for example used it a lot.
Con :
Adding houserules can have a heavier impact then it seems at thirst sight. (Can't really think of an OP bardbarian build btw)
I not convicted that performing and using the Perform skill is the same thing.
And anyway, if we drop the question regarding starting IC (or some other performance that don't require skill checks) I'm with with Wraithstrike on it being possible to maintain the effects of a bardic performance even during rage.
So if I use a skill even if I don't roll does that mean a bard / barbarian can't enter rage if he is invisible but don't roll stealth skill checks?
So if I use a skill even if I don't roll does that mean a bard / barbarian can't enter rage if he is invisible but don't roll stealth skill checks?
IIRC the restricted skills were the mental ability based ones.
Also by the same logic a bard can't use aid another or use inspire competence (IComp)to help someone with a knowledge check because thinking is aperently the same as using the knowledge check? Or should the Bard knock the wizard unconscious so the can coordinate the knowledge check?
Let's face it. The bard's class features are very much tied in with meta gaming and flavour text. The rules part of the class's is nor well written. So how many rounds are you going to burn if you gonna use IComp to help someone use disable device or clip or use sense motive or anything that might take many rounds or even many minutes?
Also by the same logic a bard can't use aid another or use inspire competence (IComp)to help someone with a knowledge check because thinking is aperently the same as using the knowledge check? Or should the Bard knock the wizard unconscious so the can coordinate the knowledge check?
Let's face it. The bard's class features are very much tied in with meta gaming and flavour text. The rules part of the class's is nor well written. So how many rounds are you going to burn if you gonna use IComp to help someone use disable device or clip or use sense motive or anything that might take many rounds or even many minutes?
Thinking is not the same as the knowledge skill. That is a very specific thing in the game.
Where is the confusion? Only the performances that ask for a skill check need a skill check. If no skill check is needed, then the performance is primary flavor. You just have to be physically capable of doing it.
I guess what I am asking is outside of some barbarian/bard combo how is this a problem in an actual game?
So if I use a skill even if I don't roll does that mean a bard / barbarian can't enter rage if he is invisible but don't roll stealth skill checks?IIRC the restricted skills were the mental ability based ones.
Sorry Wraithstrike, I meant can I use IC if I'm invisible but don't roll stealth checks.
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So if I use a skill even if I don't roll does that mean a bard / barbarian can't enter rage if he is invisible but don't roll stealth skill checks?IIRC the restricted skills were the mental ability based ones.Sorry Wraithstrike, I meant can I use IC if I'm invisible but don't roll stealth checks.
I am unsure of what you are trying to say:
Inspire competence relies on audible components.
so you can use it while invisible, but not while silenced.
If the question is: i can use Inspire competence while raging, I would say no, but invisibility don't change anything.
So if I use a skill even if I don't roll does that mean a bard / barbarian can't enter rage if he is invisible but don't roll stealth skill checks?IIRC the restricted skills were the mental ability based ones.Sorry Wraithstrike, I meant can I use IC if I'm invisible but don't roll stealth checks.
IC requires you to use a visual or audible component. If you are invisible you have to use the audible one, unless your party has see invis or something equivalent up. That will give you a penalty to your stealth check, but you could do it.
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IC requires you to use a visual or audible component. If you are invisible you have to use the audible one, unless your party has see invis or something equivalent up. That will give you a penalty to your stealth check, but you could do it.So if I use a skill even if I don't roll does that mean a bard / barbarian can't enter rage if he is invisible but don't roll stealth skill checks?IIRC the restricted skills were the mental ability based ones.Sorry Wraithstrike, I meant can I use IC if I'm invisible but don't roll stealth checks.
You think he mean Inspire Courage? Probable, then he need to chose a audible component if invisible.
You think he mean Inspire Courage? Probable, then he need to chose a audible component if invisible.IC requires you to use a visual or audible component. If you are invisible you have to use the audible one, unless your party has see invis or something equivalent up. That will give you a penalty to your stealth check, but you could do it.So if I use a skill even if I don't roll does that mean a bard / barbarian can't enter rage if he is invisible but don't roll stealth skill checks?IIRC the restricted skills were the mental ability based ones.Sorry Wraithstrike, I meant can I use IC if I'm invisible but don't roll stealth checks.
Yes. If it was inspire competence then the only option is the audible component.
I' sorry guys. The summer heat is boiling my brain.
I think we better drop the invisibility and bardic performance think. I think I don't even know myself what I meant. LOL!