Why is arcane magic not completely ubiquitous?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
RMcD wrote:

Druids like plants and growth right.

So a farmer who wants to be competitive offers a druid 10% of the profit from harvest if the druid will cast plant growth.

The druid spends one day casting plant growth boosting it to 133%, and then gets 13.3% of harvest profit, the farmer is more competitive than any other farm and a whole lot richer.

The druid should then do this with every farm, spending months travelling around the land covering huge areas with the spell, both appeasing the druid lords and also appeasing the farmers and themselves.

The whole Kingdom would become more competitive and the population could go up.

Neighbouring Kingdom sees this, but they're anti-Druid so they instead Craft a magic item that can cast plant growth 5/day or something and has a payback period of 5 years (if someone could actually work out how much 1 mile diameter circle of crops produces in a year that would be great (I mean seriously the spell seems designed in a way that makes it seem like the knowledge of that has to be somewhere otherwise how would a player ever use it)), and boom, that proliferates until every Kingdom and everywhere has 33% extra growth, this should happen in like every industry.

The Druid however who does this without restraint will fall... Because he's putting profit ahead of nature's balance. When you tinker with nature in one area, it's inevitable that you're going to get a pushback from another.


Poldaran wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:
Continual flame provides a cheap means of keeping an area lit at all times.

Assuming we aren't paying a premium to the caster, just the cost of the spell:

One Continual Flame casting costs as much as five thousand torches. While it makes much more sense in the long run, how many people living day to day in that kind of society would think that far ahead when they could instead spend much less now on the torches they need for the immediate future? And that's assuming that we're talking about someone who has that kind of wealth just lying around. I'd suspect that most people are somewhere in the Destitute(0gp/month), Poor(3gp/month) and Average(10gp/month) brackets and likely would have a very hard time justifying something like that.

But there's no sink for continual flames so every time someone makes one boom goes a torch, even a small town would be buying them for lamps in the street, every time anyone made one in thousands of years it's been possible they're just piling up, there should be a huge glut of them

Liberty's Edge

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RMcD wrote:
Neighbouring Kingdom sees this, but they're anti-Druid so they instead Craft a magic item that can cast plant growth 5/day or something and has a payback period of 5 years (if someone could actually work out how much 1 mile diameter circle of crops produces in a year that would be great (I mean seriously the spell seems designed in a way that makes it seem like the knowledge of that has to be somewhere otherwise how would a player ever use it)), and boom, that proliferates until every Kingdom and everywhere has 33% extra growth, this should happen in like every industry.

Who says this isn't ongoing and the prices don't take it into account? Seriously, Golarion is home to a huge amount of biodiversity and very large creatures, two things normally only found in extremely fertile climates...so who says this isn't a thing?


RMcD wrote:

Druids like plants and growth right.

So a farmer who wants to be competitive offers a druid 10% of the profit from harvest if the druid will cast plant growth.

The druid spends one day casting plant growth boosting it to 133%, and then gets 13.3% of harvest profit, the farmer is more competitive than any other farm and a whole lot richer.

The druid should then do this with every farm, spending months travelling around the land covering huge areas with the spell, both appeasing the druid lords and also appeasing the farmers and themselves.

The whole Kingdom would become more competitive and the population could go up.

Neighbouring Kingdom sees this, but they're anti-Druid so they instead Craft a magic item that can cast plant growth 5/day or something and has a payback period of 5 years (if someone could actually work out how much 1 mile diameter circle of crops produces in a year that would be great (I mean seriously the spell seems designed in a way that makes it seem like the knowledge of that has to be somewhere otherwise how would a player ever use it)), and boom, that proliferates until every Kingdom and everywhere has 33% extra growth, this should happen in like every industry.

First, the druid still only makes 10%, the amount paid is 33% greater because of his/er help.

Second, history shows when farming is made easier and crop yields increase the population increases, but so does demand. To meet this demand more farms are created, usually by clearing previously unsettled areas(the kind druids love and are sworn to protect). Thus the druid(all druids really) would suddenly stop casting plant growth, queue mass starvation and even greater efforts to clear out natural areas to make way for more farmland to replace the loss of druid assisted productivity. Now you have something like war between a starving civilization and the forces of nature.

Or maybe the druids would have realized this beforehand and done nothing.


RMcD wrote:


But there's no sink for continual flames so every time someone makes one boom goes a torch, even a small town would be buying them for lamps in the street, every time anyone made one in thousands of years it's been possible they're just piling up, there should be a huge glut of them

First, it isn't hard to make or buy a torch and the materials are plentiful.

Second, Why do the streets need to be lit? Who is traveling at night? Why don't they have their own light sources? Why would a city/town pay thousands to keep it's streets lit?


richard develyn wrote:

Nicolaus Copernicus' discovered that the earth moved around the sun and published his book in 1543 (De revolutionibus).

It was denounced a couple of years later in a book called "On the Truth of Sacred Scripture", though no real action was taken against it for about 60 years while people tried to figure out whether it mattered.

Specifically, it only became an issue due to the whole Galileo thing (which was mostly because Galileo was a jerk who alienated his former supporters).

EDIT: And it's not really accurate to say he "discovered" that; he proposed the hypothesis but had no way to prove it, nor did anyone for quite a long time.

Quote:
It was not then until 1758 that the book was removed from the list of prohibited books by the Catholic Church, and even then only the "annotated" version. It took another 100 years before the original was allowed.

Not quite, 1758 is the non-annotated version. And all that was changed was a few statements presenting it as certain vs hypothetical.

The whole Galileo thing was a mess, but it isn't really reflective of a broader 'anti-science' attitude.

(And, in fact, in Galileo's time it wasn't at all clear that heliocentrism was right. A lot of people thought the non-observation of stellar parallax meant that the Earth couldn't be moving. Plus, they didn't have Newtonian concepts of inertia and gravity yet.

People present stuff like Tycho's system - in which the Sun goes around the Earth and the other planets go around the Sun - as religiously motivated; while that's true to some extent* it also had a real scientific purpose.)

*It hardly could be otherwise - in their time, science wasn't nearly as separate from philosophy and religion and even magic as we think of it. Even Newton was majorly into alchemy and so on.

EDIT: And stellar parallax does exist - instruments just weren't good enough to measure it until the 19th century - but no one expected the nearest stars to be tens of thousands of times farther away than Saturn (the outermost known planet until 1781).


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Conumbra wrote:
So, a friend proposed an interesting wrinkle to this problem. Why hasn't someone (a government, an extremely wealthy individual, etc.) contracted out a caster (or cast the magic themselves, assuming said wealthy person is an arcane caster) to create permanent teleportation circles to link various parts of the world in exceedingly rapid trade? Surely they'd make their money back long term.

Convenience vs. Security, I'd imagine. If there's no physical way to block it(like Stargate SG1's iris), there'd be nothing to do to prevent a hostile army from porting over en masse short of a garrison large enough to neutralize each wave before the whole area is overrun.

Edit: That said, you could mitigate the threat by having the terminus be outside of a city, preferably far away enough to allow a smaller garrison to put out an alert and give the city time to respond. You'd still end up with a hostile army in the middle of your nation, but at least it wouldn't be too bad. Other options include having a central outgoing terminus in a trade hub that has teleportation circles that output inside the same nation's borders, but near the edge, since they're one way devices. It wouldn't be quite as convenient, but it would address the security issue.

In a modern setting, the sheer volume of freight would make it impractical to use since you'd have to transport to the circle, load into smaller conveyance(a cart of some kind, probably) and then load back into a larger freight vehicle. In that case, circles would be relegated to personnel transport(and the occasional overnight type package). You'd need something on the level of an elf gate that you could drive whole trucks through.


Swords and Sorcery had a city of Necromancers published that explores the undead solution.

Grand Lodge

I would think that magic is not completely ubiquitous is because spells have duration's and can only be cast so many times per day.

Most spells don't last longer than minutes per day, I know you can make lots of spells permanent but that isn't the majority of them, I guess if you can out last a spell caster during a day than you win?

Plus they are generally kept in check by their piers, you don't have to many 20th level wizards going on rampages because others of similar power would come out to put them down or take their power.

I could be completely wrong and I am ok with that just my two coppers


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Jeraa wrote:

Magic isn't everywhere because most players want a medieval world. You can try to justify it some way in-game, but it is really an out-of-game situation.

There really is no in-game reason for it. Most fantasy worlds are just stagnant.

The only real explanation I can see that would work in-game is that some over-deity (who views even the strongest of the normal gods as nothing more than little playthings) wants things to stay the way they are. How else can not only the material plane stay the same, but every other plane in existence?

This is about it. Nice try, everyone else, in trying to rationalize one of the major problems with any magic in any fantasy trope.

Magic users would either rule the world in a sort of "mageocracy", or be enslaved by rulers to do their bidding. It would totally redefine the world and make it very unlike what we see in most standard fantasy RPGs today.

Divine magic is as problematic as arcane, if not more so. Religious sects, orders, temples, what have you would be overrun by the general populance. The ruling class would outright demand it. It would set up the same scenario as above: practitioners would either rule or be servants.

Eberron addressed this in one way: the practical application of magic. Harnessing magic as a solution to everyday/every man's problems. Dragonlance, with its three arcane orders, also attempted to grapple with this issue in its own way.

Most settings tend to have an uncomfortable duality of type-cast medieval society on the one hand, and ubiquitous magic on the other hand (Forgotten Realms, anyone? Just read any Volo's Guides). They coexist and that's that: the reasons they do are ignored on purpose (kinda like the whole Aber/Toril backstory - ha!).


About half of all the rulers in Golarion have levels in a spellcasting class without very many mageocracies(Nex and Geb being the only two, if that).

Enslavement of spellcasters doesn't work out to well, that is how the Worldwound opened.

You can try and make divine casters do what you want, but if the source of the magic doesn't want something done it won't be done.

Liberty's Edge

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Tranquilis wrote:
This is about it. Nice try, everyone else, in trying to rationalize one of the major problems with any magic in any fantasy trope.

Not necessarily. There's actually a lot of solid reasons it might work as portrayed in Golarion, for example.

Tranquilis wrote:
Magic users would either rule the world in a sort of "mageocracy", or be enslaved by rulers to do their bidding. It would totally redefine the world and make it very unlike what we see in most standard fantasy RPGs today.

Okay, neither of these scenarios actually make any sense as universal (the second doesn't make any sense at all). 'Mageocracies' assume that magic-users have some built-in inherent loyalty to each other that trumps their other loyalties, which is ridiculous on the face of it for a setting like Pathfinder where they don't even all get the same type of magic from the same place. Why should the King's cousin, who's been raised to be loyal to the crown and is highly invested in the system, try and change it? Heck, why should a peasant do so if they can win wealth and respect within it via magic? The existing society of Pathfinder rewards accomplishment and power quite a bit...including magical power. What's the impetus for a spell caster to change that?

And as for enslaving all spellcasters...that tends to result in very dead enslavers. I mean, who tries to enslave people who can casually turn them into a toad? Stupid people, that's who.

Tranquilis wrote:
Divine magic is as problematic as arcane, if not more so. Religious sects, orders, temples, what have you would be overrun by the general populance. The ruling class would outright demand it. It would set up the same scenario as above: practitioners would either rule or be servants.

This ignores two simple truths:

On the ruling the world: In some places, a particular church does this...but other churches tend not to approve. The more area they control, the more the other Churches, and more importantly their Gods, object. Even Gods who don't want to rule anywhere often object to others doing so. So...the Gods are actively stopping this from happening.

On the being enslaved: You're kidding, right? Enslaving people who can call down literal miracles from a literal God strikes you as a good or viable plan? Remember Moses in the Bible? Think that, only less friendly and more smitey...and given the firstborn children thing, that's pretty smitey. Oh, and times however many high level Clerics there are in the world. So...this is the definition of a bad plan.

Tranquilis wrote:
Eberron addressed this in one way: the practical application of magic. Harnessing magic as a solution to everyday/every man's problems. Dragonlance, with its three arcane orders, also attempted to grapple with this issue in its own way.

They did indeed. Golarion goes a somewhat different route, with magic and spellcasters being less capable of making normal people able to utilize their magic, and thus making magic the province of either people who can do it, or people who can afford to hire someone to do it. Which works pretty well. Magic is a definite thing in the world, but a luxury item, not something everyone has access to on a day-to-day basis. Which works fine, for the most part.

Tranquilis wrote:
Most settings tend to have an uncomfortable duality of type-cast medieval society on the one hand, and ubiquitous magic on the other hand (Forgotten Realms, anyone? Just read any Volo's Guides). They coexist and that's that: the reasons they do are ignored on purpose (kinda like the whole Aber/Toril backstory - ha!).

Golarion doesn't ignore the magic inherent in the setting at all. It's actually integrated pretty well, just with the rich and privileged being the ones with the most access to it.

Dark Archive

If magic does give people a huge advantage in the world, and access to schools of wizardry is controlled by the rich, then natural selection will eventually create a world full of sorcerers.

Magic would mirror martial arts in feudal japan, with wizards instead of samurai and sorcerers instead of budoka (martial artists - using Bushido (RPG)'s definition).

IMVHO

Richard

Liberty's Edge

richard develyn wrote:
If magic does give people a huge advantage in the world, and access to schools of wizardry is controlled by the rich, then natural selection will eventually create a world full of sorcerers.

Firstly, Sorcerers don't generally work that way. It's not like two Wizards (or even two Sorcerers) will have a Sorcerer baby. Sorcerers crop up all sorts of places.

Secondly, Wizard schools aren't monopolies of the rich any more than real universities are...which is to say, maybe a little, but not so much as to prevent brilliant but poor people from going there. Speaking of which...being a Wizard requires a certain specific degree of intellect, as well as choosing to apply it in a particular way. That's not gonna be ubiquitous in the upper classes, or unique to them, and a nation that allows the poor who are smart enough to learn such things has more Wizards and thus more power than one who does not.

Now, somewhat inevitably, skilled Wizards will become wealthy...but that's a somewhat different matter.

richard develyn wrote:

Magic would mirror martial arts in feudal japan, with wizards instead of samurai and sorcerers instead of budoka (martial artists - using Bushido (RPG)'s definition).

IMVHO

Richard

That doesn't necessarily follow at all.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
If magic does give people a huge advantage in the world, and access to schools of wizardry is controlled by the rich, then natural selection will eventually create a world full of sorcerers.

Secondly, Wizard schools aren't monopolies of the rich any more than real universities are...which is to say, maybe a little, but not so much as to prevent brilliant but poor people from going there. Speaking of which...being a Wizard requires a certain specific degree of intellect, as well as choosing to apply it in a particular way. That's not gonna be ubiquitous in the upper classes, or unique to them, and a nation that allows the poor who are smart enough to learn such things has more Wizards and thus more power than one who does not.

Which has of course been true for education throughout history and yet it's until recently been entirely the province of the upper classes. Don't underestimate the desire of elites to keep power to themselves, even if it's suicidal in the long run.

It's not even necessarily intentional. I mean it's obvious that the elites are naturally smarter than the peasants. Peasants can hardly talk properly, they mostly can't read or write, they don't know the basic things that all the elite children know. They're not even smart enough to keep themselves clean or dress properly.
Obviously, this is mostly do to lack of education and other circumstances, though poor nutrition and stress play a role as well.

To overcome that, you really have to educate all the children at least to the elementary level. Until you do that the advantages of letting the peasants into your wizardry academies won't be apparent. Even if you did let them in, so few will meet whatever basic qualifications you set that it's not going to make a noticable difference.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:

Which has of course been true for education throughout history and yet it's until recently been entirely the province of the upper classes. Don't underestimate the desire of elites to keep power to themselves, even if it's suicidal in the long run.

It's not even necessarily intentional. I mean it's obvious that the elites are naturally smarter than the peasants. Peasants can hardly talk properly, they mostly can't read or write, they don't know the basic things that all the elite children know. They're not even smart enough to keep themselves clean or dress properly.
Obviously, this is mostly do to lack of education and other circumstances, though poor nutrition and stress play a role as well.

To overcome that, you really have to educate all the children at least to the elementary level. Until you do that the advantages of letting the peasants into your wizardry academies won't be apparent. Even if you did let them in, so few will meet whatever basic qualifications you set that it's not going to make a noticable difference.

Golarion isn't really feudal most places, though. There are farmers and 'common folk', certainly, but not really peasants or serfs in the classic sense of the term. Which makes quite a difference. Most of them even seem to be decently educated, with literacy commonplace even among the lower classes, just for example.

Now, some places, like Taldor, might be more like this, but it's not the standard way society is set up on Golarion.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Which has of course been true for education throughout history and yet it's until recently been entirely the province of the upper classes. Don't underestimate the desire of elites to keep power to themselves, even if it's suicidal in the long run.

It's not even necessarily intentional. I mean it's obvious that the elites are naturally smarter than the peasants. Peasants can hardly talk properly, they mostly can't read or write, they don't know the basic things that all the elite children know. They're not even smart enough to keep themselves clean or dress properly.
Obviously, this is mostly do to lack of education and other circumstances, though poor nutrition and stress play a role as well.

To overcome that, you really have to educate all the children at least to the elementary level. Until you do that the advantages of letting the peasants into your wizardry academies won't be apparent. Even if you did let them in, so few will meet whatever basic qualifications you set that it's not going to make a noticable difference.

Golarion isn't really feudal most places, though. There are farmers and 'common folk', certainly, but not really peasants or serfs in the classic sense of the term. Which makes quite a difference. Most of them even seem to be decently educated, with literacy commonplace even among the lower classes, just for example.

Now, some places, like Taldor, might be more like this, but it's not the standard way society is set up on Golarion.

Fair enough, but then we know what rough proportional casters are in and how ubiquitous arcane magic is.

If we're debating the whys and the wherefores and what it should really be like, then it makes senses to question those assumptions. Why is nearly everyone in Golarion literate? Are there public school systems?

For that matter, do most wizards learn their art in "schools"? Or is an apprentice system more common? I know there are some schools of wizardry, but are they that common? Do most of the cities that have been detailed have them, for example?

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
Fair enough, but then we know what rough proportional casters are in and how ubiquitous arcane magic is.

True enough.

thejeff wrote:
If we're debating the whys and the wherefores and what it should really be like, then it makes senses to question those assumptions. Why is nearly everyone in Golarion literate? Are there public school systems?

Not everywhere, certainly...but Sandpoint has a public school, and that's not exactly a metropolis, which indicates they're probably pretty common.

thejeff wrote:
For that matter, do most wizards learn their art in "schools"? Or is an apprentice system more common? I know there are some schools of wizardry, but are they that common? Do most of the cities that have been detailed have them, for example?

A fair number have one, yeah. It's not any more universal than big universities in real-world cities, but seems around equally common based on the city books I've seen (which is most of 'em).


Tranquilis wrote:
This is about it. Nice try, everyone else, in trying to rationalize one of the major problems with any magic in any fantasy trope.

Not really. It's not frankly all that different from technological innovation, and we see that the levels of technology and applications to which they are put vary in wide degrees across the globe.

Why would magic be any different? Because it's incantations and components and secret knowledge? There's not really any reason to think that makes it any easier to acquire or utilize than, say, a computer. Or a gun. Or a wheel.

Liberty's Edge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
If magic does give people a huge advantage in the world, and access to schools of wizardry is controlled by the rich, then natural selection will eventually create a world full of sorcerers.

Firstly, Sorcerers don't generally work that way. It's not like two Wizards (or even two Sorcerers) will have a Sorcerer baby. Sorcerers crop up all sorts of places.

Secondly, Wizard schools aren't monopolies of the rich any more than real universities are...which is to say, maybe a little, but not so much as to prevent brilliant but poor people from going there. Speaking of which...being a Wizard requires a certain specific degree of intellect, as well as choosing to apply it in a particular way. That's not gonna be ubiquitous in the upper classes, or unique to them, and a nation that allows the poor who are smart enough to learn such things has more Wizards and thus more power than one who does not.

Now, somewhat inevitably, skilled Wizards will become wealthy...but that's a somewhat different matter.

richard develyn wrote:

Magic would mirror martial arts in feudal japan, with wizards instead of samurai and sorcerers instead of budoka (martial artists - using Bushido (RPG)'s definition).

IMVHO

Richard

That doesn't necessarily follow at all.

Witches benefit from a high intellect and don't require formal schooling. In a nation where access to magical schooling is restricted to the wealthy the peasants would resort to witchcraft and it probably would be outlawed.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
If magic does give people a huge advantage in the world, and access to schools of wizardry is controlled by the rich, then natural selection will eventually create a world full of sorcerers.

Secondly, Wizard schools aren't monopolies of the rich any more than real universities are...which is to say, maybe a little, but not so much as to prevent brilliant but poor people from going there. Speaking of which...being a Wizard requires a certain specific degree of intellect, as well as choosing to apply it in a particular way. That's not gonna be ubiquitous in the upper classes, or unique to them, and a nation that allows the poor who are smart enough to learn such things has more Wizards and thus more power than one who does not.

Which has of course been true for education throughout history and yet it's until recently been entirely the province of the upper classes. Don't underestimate the desire of elites to keep power to themselves, even if it's suicidal in the long run.

It's not even necessarily intentional. I mean it's obvious that the elites are naturally smarter than the peasants. Peasants can hardly talk properly, they mostly can't read or write, they don't know the basic things that all the elite children know. They're not even smart enough to keep themselves clean or dress properly.
Obviously, this is mostly do to lack of education and other circumstances, though poor nutrition and stress play a role as well.

To overcome that, you really have to educate all the children at least to the elementary level. Until you do that the advantages of letting the peasants into your wizardry academies won't be apparent. Even if you did let them in, so few will meet whatever basic qualifications you set that it's not going to make a noticable difference.

Slave Greek pedagogues in Rome weren't exactly the wealthiest class. In Italy during the late middle ages almost all traders were capable to read, write and do basic arithmetic operations. There were ways to learn to read and write if you had the inclination, simply it was way harder if you weren't wealthy.

Liberty's Edge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
thejeff wrote:
For that matter, do most wizards learn their art in "schools"? Or is an apprentice system more common? I know there are some schools of wizardry, but are they that common? Do most of the cities that have been detailed have them, for example?
A fair number have one, yeah. It's not any more universal than big universities in real-world cities, but seems around equally common based on the city books I've seen (which is most of 'em).

Korvosa is a middle sized city with less than 20.000 inhabitants and has 2 magical universities, the Acadame and the Theumanexus College (from Guide to Korvosa) . Varisia birthplace of legends give us 2 schools in Magnimar, 1 in Riddleport and 1 in Galduria, plus the Acaddame in Korvosa. The Golemwork in Magnimar is more of a trading school and the Cypher Lodge seem more a guild, but they are under the heading of "Arcane schools" Noteh that in that section the Theumanexus College don't appear, so it is not a exhaustive list. It seem that scholl for magic users are fairly common, more than universities during the Renaissance.

Dark Archive

Deadmanwalking wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
If magic does give people a huge advantage in the world, and access to schools of wizardry is controlled by the rich, then natural selection will eventually create a world full of sorcerers.
Firstly, Sorcerers don't generally work that way. It's not like two Wizards (or even two Sorcerers) will have a Sorcerer baby. Sorcerers crop up all sorts of places.

Sorcery is bloodline related though, is it not?

I would have thought, entirely through my own imaginative extrapolation, that two sorcerers of the same bloodline would be more likely to create a sorcerer baby of that bloodline than say a sorcerer and a non-sorcerer. Certainly two humans (say) who do not have any of a particular bloodline in their genes cannot produce a sorcerer of that bloodline.

Richard


richard develyn wrote:
Certainly two humans (say) who do not have any of a particular bloodline in their genes cannot produce a sorcerer of that bloodline.

Unless you're exposed to a particular catalyst while pregnant(or the baby is later). Or the baby is destined for greatness. Or one of the many things that cause sorcerers to pop.

I think it's like Aasimar. Having it makes it possible, but there's absolutely no guarantee, even if both parents are Aasimar.


Poldaran wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
Certainly two humans (say) who do not have any of a particular bloodline in their genes cannot produce a sorcerer of that bloodline.

Unless you're exposed to a particular catalyst while pregnant(or the baby is later). Or the baby is destined for greatness. Or one of the many things that cause sorcerers to pop.

I think it's like Aasimar. Having it makes it possible, but there's absolutely no guarantee, even if both parents are Aasimar.

Certainly, but if there really is any actual "bloodline", then the odds have to go up if the parents have the bloodline.

There well certainly be some popping up among the masses, but they'll tend to concentrate among the elite: Both because the elites are more likely to have the kinds of contact that start the bloodlines in the first place and because those who do wind up manifesting sorcerer powers are likely to wind up among the elite.


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For me this is kind of like asking why everyone in the real world doesn't have a masters degree in business and start their own company and become a millionaire.

This is a route clearly available to everyone. The reasons why everyone doesn't do this are myriad.

Predisposition: not everyone likes or is good at school and even among those that do no everyone is interested in business.

Talent/intelligence/work ethic: even among those that would like to do so, some are not smart enough or hard working enough to do so.

Obstacles/hurdles: some people have greater obstacles to overcome, poverty, access to education, parental support, etc.

Thus although millions of people could do this there are very few Bill Gates and Warren Buffets in the world just like there are very few Arch Mages in Golarion.


Mike Franke wrote:

For me this is kind of like asking why everyone in the real world doesn't have a masters degree in business and start their own company and become a millionaire.

This is a route clearly available to everyone. The reasons why everyone doesn't do this are myriad.

Predisposition: not everyone likes or is good at school and even among those that do no everyone is interested in business.

Talent/intelligence/work ethic: even among those that would like to do so, some are not smart enough or hard working enough to do so.

Obstacles/hurdles: some people have greater obstacles to overcome, poverty, access to education, parental support, etc.

Thus although millions of people could do this there are very few Bill Gates and Warren Buffets in the world just like there are very few Arch Mages in Golarion.

Though there is the fundamental difference that while everyone could in theory become an Archmage, just like everyone could in theory get a masters degree in business, it's not possible for everyone to start a business and become a millionaire. Anyone, yes, but not everyone. All those businesses need actual employees to do the work.

Dark Archive

Mike Franke wrote:

For me this is kind of like asking why everyone in the real world doesn't have a masters degree in business and start their own company and become a millionaire.

This is a route clearly available to everyone. The reasons why everyone doesn't do this are myriad.

Predisposition: not everyone likes or is good at school and even among those that do no everyone is interested in business.

Talent/intelligence/work ethic: even among those that would like to do so, some are not smart enough or hard working enough to do so.

Obstacles/hurdles: some people have greater obstacles to overcome, poverty, access to education, parental support, etc.

Thus although millions of people could do this there are very few Bill Gates and Warren Buffets in the world just like there are very few Arch Mages in Golarion.

You're arguing extreme cases, though.

People do gravitate towards the areas of greatest reward. You don't see many millers these days, for example, even though once upon a time it was a very lucrative profession.

Richard


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richard develyn wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:

For me this is kind of like asking why everyone in the real world doesn't have a masters degree in business and start their own company and become a millionaire.

This is a route clearly available to everyone. The reasons why everyone doesn't do this are myriad.

Predisposition: not everyone likes or is good at school and even among those that do no everyone is interested in business.

Talent/intelligence/work ethic: even among those that would like to do so, some are not smart enough or hard working enough to do so.

Obstacles/hurdles: some people have greater obstacles to overcome, poverty, access to education, parental support, etc.

Thus although millions of people could do this there are very few Bill Gates and Warren Buffets in the world just like there are very few Arch Mages in Golarion.

You're arguing extreme cases, though.

People do gravitate towards the areas of greatest reward. You don't see many millers these days, for example, even though once upon a time it was a very lucrative profession.

You also don't see a lot of millionaire business owners. Far more poverty striken retail workers. Just on the basis of numbers, you'd assume people gravitated towards lousy jobs. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Not everywhere, certainly...but Sandpoint has a public school, and that's not exactly a metropolis, which indicates they're probably pretty common.

Not really, in a lot of ways, including their tolerance of outsiders, it's very clear that Sandpoint is anything BUT typical for a settlement of it's size. It stands out by how much it does NOT represent the norms.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:


I think it's like Aasimar. Having it makes it possible, but there's absolutely no guarantee, even if both parents are Aasimar.

Certainly, but if there really is any actual "bloodline", then the odds have to go up if the parents have the bloodline.

Not neccessarily. a child can be born an aasimar (or a tiefling) for reasons having absolutely nothing to do with genetics.

Liberty's Edge

richard develyn wrote:

Sorcery is bloodline related though, is it not?

I would have thought, entirely through my own imaginative extrapolation, that two sorcerers of the same bloodline would be more likely to create a sorcerer baby of that bloodline than say a sorcerer and a non-sorcerer. Certainly two humans (say) who do not have any of a particular bloodline in their genes cannot produce a sorcerer of that bloodline.

Richard

Eh...exposure to magic can also do it. Or just being destined to be one. Or a host of other possibilities. Being a Sorcerer, while partially genetic, has more in common with superhero origin stories (especially being an X-Men style mutant) than it does with how real-world genetics work.

LazarX wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Not everywhere, certainly...but Sandpoint has a public school, and that's not exactly a metropolis, which indicates they're probably pretty common.
Not really, in a lot of ways, including their tolerance of outsiders, it's very clear that Sandpoint is anything BUT typical for a settlement of it's size. It stands out by how much it does NOT represent the norms.

That's true, but the fact that Sandpoint can afford to do it with a relatively small population implies that other medium-small towns can do it too.

EDIT: Ah, better proof! Belhaim, the town from The Dragon's Demand, is both more typical, and smaller at 388 people, and still has a listed schoolhouse. And that's in Taldor, which is more feudal (making such a thing more unlikely) so that's probably pretty typical.

Honestly, I think the Wild West (at least as portrayed in media) is a good comparison for how schools in small towns would work in Golarion. The people get together and hire a teacher, and the kids go to school and learn at least the basics like literacy, though often not a lot more. Churches of various sorts might also get involved, depending.


LazarX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Quote:


I think it's like Aasimar. Having it makes it possible, but there's absolutely no guarantee, even if both parents are Aasimar.
Certainly, but if there really is any actual "bloodline", then the odds have to go up if the parents have the bloodline.
Not neccessarily. a child can be born an aasimar (or a tiefling) for reasons having absolutely nothing to do with genetics.

If the odds don't go up, then it really has nothing to do with bloodline or ancestry at all.

Yes, there are other possible reasons, but the odds still go up if you have the genetic heritage.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Potential for sorcery isn't the same thing as actually being a sorcerer, either. Developing those talents takes time, effort, and introspection. Some people are too busy getting the harvest in to worry about things like that. Others don't have the Charisma to actually make it work. Yet others become warriors or fighters instead (and maybe end up with an Eldritch Heritage feat later.)

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:


You also don't see a lot of millionaire business owners. Far more poverty striken retail workers. Just on the basis of numbers, you'd assume people gravitated towards lousy jobs. :)

There are more retail workers than millers, or basket weavers, or chimney sweeps.

Everyone does the best they can for themselves given their circumstance.

Broadly speaking :-)

Dark Archive

Ross Byers wrote:
Potential for sorcery isn't the same thing as actually being a sorcerer, either. Developing those talents takes time, effort, and introspection. Some people are too busy getting the harvest in to worry about things like that. Others don't have the Charisma to actually make it work. Yet others become warriors or fighters instead (and maybe end up with an Eldritch Heritage feat later.)

Sure, but if having sorcerer parents provides a significant advantage, even just by probability of sorcerous offspring, then this should eventually cause more sorcerers to appear. People fuss on about breeding all the time.


Conumbra wrote:
So, a friend proposed an interesting wrinkle to this problem. Why hasn't someone (a government, an extremely wealthy individual, etc.) contracted out a caster (or cast the magic themselves, assuming said wealthy person is an arcane caster) to create permanent teleportation circles to link various parts of the world in exceedingly rapid trade? Surely they'd make their money back long term.

Lady Darchana of House Madinani, archdean at the Arcanamirium in Absalom, is working on pretty much exactly this (Guide to Absalom p.59). If she succeeds in doing so, it will cause a major upheaval in the political and economic climate of the largest city in the known world, render ships largely obsolete for trade -- and undoubtedly gain her powerful enemies.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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richard develyn wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Potential for sorcery isn't the same thing as actually being a sorcerer, either. Developing those talents takes time, effort, and introspection. Some people are too busy getting the harvest in to worry about things like that. Others don't have the Charisma to actually make it work. Yet others become warriors or fighters instead (and maybe end up with an Eldritch Heritage feat later.)
Sure, but if having sorcerer parents provides a significant advantage, even just by probability of sorcerous offspring, then this should eventually cause more sorcerers to appear. People fuss on about breeding all the time.

There are lots of complications that could make sorcerous bloodlines less fit in an evolutionary sense, even if their bearers have super powers. Perhaps such mixed bloodlines have an increased risk of miscarriages or birth defects, since they carry potentially adverse genes from another species. Perhaps sorcerers in general are simply less fertile. Perhaps people are in general less willing to have children with someone with a visibly tainted bloodline (even if that taint is celestial.) Perhaps the pull on alignment that comes with many of the outsider bloodlines is sub-optimal in an evolutionary sense. Perhaps practicing sorcerers are more likely to pursue high-risk lifestyles that reduce their lifespan and/or likelihood to reproduce. Perhaps magic bloodlines dilute, such that it would require a steady rate of rishathra to maintain in a population.

Look at real genetics - we have no evidence that humanity has, on the whole, been breeding for anything other than height since the advent of the written word, despite a number of other traits that should provide a 'significant advantage' by your estimation. And even that data is tainted by having to guess at the effect provided by better nutrition.

Dark Archive

Ross Byers wrote:

There are lots of complications that could make sorcerous bloodlines less fit in an evolutionary sense, even if their bearers have super powers. Perhaps such mixed bloodlines have an increased risk of miscarriages or birth defects, since they carry potentially adverse genes from another species. Perhaps sorcerers in general are simply less fertile. Perhaps people are in general less willing to have children with someone with a visibly tainted bloodline (even if that taint is celestial.) Perhaps the pull on alignment that comes with many of the outsider bloodlines is sub-optimal in an evolutionary sense. Perhaps practicing sorcerers are more likely to pursue high-risk lifestyles that reduce their lifespan and/or likelihood to reproduce. Perhaps magic bloodlines dilute, such that it would require a steady rate of rishathra to maintain in a population.

Look at real genetics - we have no evidence that humanity has, on the whole, been breeding for anything other than height since the advent of the written word, despite a number of other traits that should provide a 'significant advantage' by your estimation. And even that data is tainted by having to guess at the effect provided by better nutrition.

I accept that entirely. I mean on the one hand we have darwinism and all that, and I'm no expert, and on the other we have the various eugenics projects which have, on the whole, been somewhat sinister rather than scientific.

I would probably be inclined to imagine that breeding is less about genes and more about attitudes. Sorcerous parents are more likely to encourage sorcery in their children. If (note, "if") this is combined with a genetic advantage as well then we would have an increase in sorcery.

(I know that there are cases where parents encourage children to go in the opposite direction, BTW, but I think on the whole lifestyle attitudes are passed down the generations (with notable exceptions))

I've realised, just as I'm writing this, that I'm arguing very much from a middle-class outlook, because I believe that Golarion has a strong middle-class element to it (by which I mean a section of society which is constantly trying to improve its lot in life). I only believe that because I think Golarion is made to be a world which we can identify with and we're mostly middle-class (in that sense).

You could argue that adventurers are the only people who are middle-class - everybody else is either a ruler or one of the oppressed masses. In that case you can answer the original post by drawing a parallel with something like ancient china, which had fireworks for thousands of years but didn't develop gunpowder in their military because the rulers / caste-leaders / whatever said no.

I prefer a vision of Golarion which has a strong middle-class and is therefore constantly changing and dynamic. I think we can then draw parallels to our own (western I suppose) economies and societies and imagine that similar things will happen but based on magic rather than science. People wont just accept their lot in life - if something, magical or otherwise, emerges which gives people an advantage, they'll gravitate towards it.

IMVHO of course.

Richard


LazarX wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Not everywhere, certainly...but Sandpoint has a public school, and that's not exactly a metropolis, which indicates they're probably pretty common.
Not really, in a lot of ways, including their tolerance of outsiders, it's very clear that Sandpoint is anything BUT typical for a settlement of it's size. It stands out by how much it does NOT represent the norms.

I agree.

In addition Sandpoint is Magnimar founded and funded and people in Magnimar are very anti-Korvasa (which means Cheliax) so they might go out of their way to do something that they (korvosans) don't do.
Also, iirc, in Sandpoint the public school is also an orphanage and also it happens to work well because a retired adventurer wizard happened to be there for the position.

Liberty's Edge

leo1925 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Not everywhere, certainly...but Sandpoint has a public school, and that's not exactly a metropolis, which indicates they're probably pretty common.
Not really, in a lot of ways, including their tolerance of outsiders, it's very clear that Sandpoint is anything BUT typical for a settlement of it's size. It stands out by how much it does NOT represent the norms.

I agree.

In addition Sandpoint is Magnimar founded and funded and people in Magnimar are very anti-Korvasa (which means Cheliax) so they might go out of their way to do something that they (korvosans) don't do.
Also, iirc, in Sandpoint the public school is also an orphanage and also it happens to work well because a retired adventurer wizard happened to be there for the position.

As noted above, I've found other supporting evidence (a significantly smaller town in Taldor also having a school...run by a 4th level Expert). So...Sandpoint is not the only data point here.


GM's need to decide on how common levels in PC classes are.

Clearly not everyone is using the PC character creation rules, the vast majority of the population are commoners despite every other class being better.

Medieval education was concentrated in the clergy and tightly controlled by them. Remember, when Guttenberg developed a printing press the reaction wasn't joy at the spread of information but horror that peasants would be able to read cheap Bibles in their native languages and start arguing with priests. Literacy and cheap books are fertile ground for heresy and schism.

Horror at the thought of the lower classes slinging fireballs should work the same way. Set the proportion of commoners vs. wizards at a reasonable level then concentrate all magical learning in monopoly protecting guilds and arcane schools and you can have wizards as rare or common as you please.

Sorcerers and Divine casters are even easier. Who has the innate spark to be a sorcerer or the favor of the gods? Whoever you want.

p.s. Continual Flame has been mentioned as a way to light the town square. That torch is worth 50gp, or 500 days wage for an unskilled person or about $27,000 (federal minimum wage * 8 hours * 500 days).

A) How happy your your RL mayor be about dropping $27,000 on a street light?
B) If there was $27,000 worth of gear sitting out in the town square how long until someone steals it?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Not everywhere, certainly...but Sandpoint has a public school, and that's not exactly a metropolis, which indicates they're probably pretty common.
Not really, in a lot of ways, including their tolerance of outsiders, it's very clear that Sandpoint is anything BUT typical for a settlement of it's size. It stands out by how much it does NOT represent the norms.

I agree.

In addition Sandpoint is Magnimar founded and funded and people in Magnimar are very anti-Korvasa (which means Cheliax) so they might go out of their way to do something that they (korvosans) don't do.
Also, iirc, in Sandpoint the public school is also an orphanage and also it happens to work well because a retired adventurer wizard happened to be there for the position.
As noted above, I've found other supporting evidence (a significantly smaller town in Taldor also having a school...run by a 4th level Expert). So...Sandpoint is not the only data point here.

But it IS the one you cited, I'm just pointing out that there are things that make Sandpoint quite unrepresentative of a generic town of it's given size. Enough to actually put it on the map in the literal sense.


How easy is it to learn magic?

Lets say you are a (literate) Lvl1 Commoner who has a job as a shepherd. He's just killed his umpteenth wolf and is ready to gain a level. Can he just say "I don't want to be a lvl2 Commoner but will multiclass and gain a level as a Wizard instead".
Does it just happen? Why? How? Why not?

If becoming a Wizard is as easy as pie, and no longer apprenticeship is required, then magic should be common.
If on the other hand it requires years and years of dedicated study under the direction of tutor or at an academy, then opportunities for commoners (on a commoner's pitiful wage of 1sp per day) would be few.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Continual Flame is at will ability of Torch Archons. it costs NOTHING to do massive amounts of Continual Flames. You could light a city in a day or two by Calling up an Archon or two and having them drop CF's where instructed for a nominal fee.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Continual Flame is at will ability of Torch Archons. it costs NOTHING to do massive amounts of Continual Flames. You could light a city in a day or two by Calling up an Archon or two and having them drop CF's where instructed for a nominal fee.

==Aelryinth

Ok, awesome.

So why would Renaissance era people do that? OR we can break this question into components:

Why do the streets need to be lit? Wouldn't that piss off people who are used to it being dark when they go to sleep? Who is riding/driving around so much at night that it is even needed? Why would people need this lighting in their homes? What would people without radios, tvs, and computers need to light up their homes at night for besides reading books?


Shadowkire wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Continual Flame is at will ability of Torch Archons. it costs NOTHING to do massive amounts of Continual Flames. You could light a city in a day or two by Calling up an Archon or two and having them drop CF's where instructed for a nominal fee.

==Aelryinth

Ok, awesome.

So why would Renaissance era people do that? OR we can break this question into components:

Why do the streets need to be lit? Wouldn't that piss off people who are used to it being dark when they go to sleep? Who is riding/driving around so much at night that it is even needed? Why would people need this lighting in their homes? What would people without radios, tvs, and computers need to light up their homes at night for besides reading books?

Street lights? For safety. Cuts down on crime.

Interior for continuing to get work done after the sun sets.

Essentially the same reasons people and cities started using gaslamps when the technology became available - even though there were no radios, tvs, and computers.


Aelryinth wrote:

Continual Flame is at will ability of Torch Archons. it costs NOTHING to do massive amounts of Continual Flames. You could light a city in a day or two by Calling up an Archon or two and having them drop CF's where instructed for a nominal fee.

==Aelryinth

In addition to the above, you also can't actually do this - Summoned creatures can't use spell-likes with an expensive material component (or, more likely, won't.) Continual Flame requires 50 gp of ruby dust.


Chris Kenney wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Continual Flame is at will ability of Torch Archons. it costs NOTHING to do massive amounts of Continual Flames. You could light a city in a day or two by Calling up an Archon or two and having them drop CF's where instructed for a nominal fee.

==Aelryinth

In addition to the above, you also can't actually do this - Summoned creatures can't use spell-likes with an expensive material component (or, more likely, won't.) Continual Flame requires 50 gp of ruby dust.

That's why he said "Called", not "summoned". He's proposing using one of the longer lasting binding spells that actually bring the creature to you.


IMO sorcerers aren't common enough to generally reproduce with other sorcerers, so that the 'inhuman' (or magically-mutated or whatever) genes tend to dilute past the point of being EDIT: capable of sorcery.

There's probably a very low level of these genes present in all Golarion humans, which leads to occasional sorcerers popping up everywhere, but there aren't enough half-dragons/half-celestials/half-fiends being born* to make sorcery common.

*Or at least, not enough passing their genes on in the human population: half-celestials and half-metallic dragons etc. might often be killed in evil-aligned societies, half-fiends and half-chromatic dragons might be killed in any society where they weren't worshipped/revered. Also, some likely would end up living among the beings the other half of their ancestry comes from, and also be removed from the human gene pool.)

Quote:


Look at real genetics - we have no evidence that humanity has, on the whole, been breeding for anything other than height since the advent of the written word, despite a number of other traits that should provide a 'significant advantage' by your estimation. And even that data is tainted by having to guess at the effect provided by better nutrition.

Exactly - why isn't everyone a super-genius by now? (Probably because really high intelligence is often correlated with mental problems which may make someone less likely to reproduce, and many people who are genetically capable of high intelligence never develop it in a useful form due to environmental reasons (being a peasant farmer with no access to education) or spending more time developing their athletic skills or laziness or ...)

EDIT: IMO, of course. I don't know that anyone really knows.

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