Tank Class advice


Advice


Hello Pathfinders!

I am looking to make a brand new character, and want to make something with insane high defense. I've played many effective skilled damage dealers, so I want the opposite. I want something with high AC that can just laugh in the dungeon boss's face. Not sure the best way to go about this, and was looking to the forums for creative ideas.

Thanks in advance.


Paladin is definitely your best bet, heavy armor and a shield, added to the AC bonuses provided by smite, their insanely high saves and the inherent tankiness of lay on hands will allow you to weather anything a boss can throw at you.


Anyone know if you can duel wield shields? and gain the AC bonuses from each?


The AC bonuses don't stack. You can dual-wield shields as weapons, though, ridiculous as it is.


On what level?

At very low level, nothing will beat a warrior with a tower shield and full plate. Paladin, as said by others, is an especially good choice.

At mid level a solid choice would be a finesse fighter with very high dex, a high dex armor coupled with armor training (if allowed, the celestial plate is instane, but a simple mithral breastplate will do) and the crane style chain to get all the benefits from fighting defensively and almost none of the drawbacks. If you go this way, max perception to avoid losing your bonus too often. You will consume a lot of resources in order to do that but you will benefit from higher touch AC compared to the above.

The higher the level, the less AC begin to matter. Give saves at least as much consideration as you give AC. Again, paladin is very solid thanks to cha, bonuses and immunities. A couple of monks levels are great (and useful also to get crane style). As for races, dwarves are a solid choice with a con/wis bonus but mostly with a +2 against spells.

Dark Archive

Stalwart Defender has some neat tricks. Nice giving a rogue a -16 to tumble past you. If you really just want to be a solid hunk of AC that is one to consider.


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Hyanda wrote:

Hello Pathfinders!

I am looking to make a brand new character, and want to make something with insane high defense. I've played many effective skilled damage dealers, so I want the opposite. I want something with high AC that can just laugh in the dungeon boss's face. Not sure the best way to go about this, and was looking to the forums for creative ideas.

Thanks in advance.

AC is not the end-all, be-all. Layered defenses are important - you need DR and strong saves more than AC.

I'd recommend you give My Barbarian Tank a try. Invulnerable Rager & Urban Barbarian with Superstition and the Stalwart feat line. Sky-high saves, good AC and awesome DR. Best non-Paladin tank I've ever played.


Crysknife wrote:
A couple of monks levels are great (and useful also to get crane style).

Unfortunately, Crane Style is no longer a worthwhile option. :-(


Hyanda,

You've made two posts, one requesting a tank and one requesting a party buffer. Are these for two different people or would you be interested in a character who can do both?

Shadow Lodge

Wiggz wrote:
Crysknife wrote:
A couple of monks levels are great (and useful also to get crane style).
Unfortunately, Crane Style is no longer a worthwhile option. :-(

It still makes fighting defensively more viable, it just isn't nearly what it used to be. Heck, combine with some of the halfling stuff and the Aldori Swordlord, and I believe you can get up to a +7ish bonus to AC from it.

@OP:The best tanks in PF are ones who are 1:Relatively hard to hit [AC between 15+level&20+level], 2:Deal relevant amounts of damage[enough to make people mad at you], 3:Are hard to beat with magic[good saves and CMD], 4:Have other forms of defense than just AC[DR, Energy Resistance, Concealment, etc.], and 5:Have high enough HP to take a few blows[you will eventually get hit, no matter what your AC].

The Exchange

Certain cavalier builds are well-suited to drawing attacks away from the rest of the party. The challenge class feature tends to draw an enemy's attention, especially if you're of an order that, say, grants every other member of the party a bonus to hit the guy you challenged. Really bumps you up a few notches on the old 'kill this one first' list. Choosing Tactician feats that improve flanking or reduce enemy defenses helps too. Lacking the sort of self-healing options the paladin has is unfortunate, but depending on your campaign, you (and the rest of the party) may be happier not having a paladin.


In addition to what Wiggz said above, keep in mind that the very idea of a 'tank' in Pathfinder is a difficult concept to pull off...since there's no built-in 'aggro' mechanic for drawing the attention of enemies.

While you can use the Antagonize feat and some other feat trees to compensate for some of this, my best advice is to think about how your PC can limit enemy movement, increase his/her own movement, make and/or soak-up Attacks-of-Opportunity, inhibit spellcasting, etc.

If you just concentrate on AC and HP, you're going to find that there will be a lot of situations where your PC is simply passed-by as the enemies go right for softer, squishier targets in your group.


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AC is probably the least important facet of attempt to "tank" in Pathfinder.

As you can't force people to attack you with the exception of the Antagonize feat (which works very poorly), you need to convince them to attack you rather than your ally. That means they actually need to think they have a chance at harming you. If you become the ultimate turtle, such that you cannot be injured, but deal no or negligble damage all you've done is become a walking tree that they will ignore as they kill the rest of your party.

A decent but not overwhelming AC is one key feature, and having DR helps a whole lot too. Strong saves is another key feature. Being able to deal enough damage or otherwise afflict the enemy is the next feature.

To this end, an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with Greater Beast Totem and Superstitious are two of the key parts. You can achieve a decent AC, even if you don't have the highest. You have a large hp pool with your d12 hit die and large con score. You have DR built in to your class. Superstition with the human favored class bonus can really power up your saves to incredible levels. Alternatively Dwarve's with Steel soul is better at early levels, but it turns in favor of humans later. Greater Beast Totem allows you to move and full attack by pouncing. Which makes you DPR greater than almost any melee character unless your enemies really like to stand around and slug it out. And, if you use a two-handed weapon with power attack and good strength you'll already be on the road to high DPR in the first place.

You hit too hard and too often to ignore, but they can't do much more than cause hp damage to you. Which isn't a big concern because you have a wand of CLW waiting for you after combat.


Wiggz wrote:
Hyanda wrote:

Hello Pathfinders!

I am looking to make a brand new character, and want to make something with insane high defense. I've played many effective skilled damage dealers, so I want the opposite. I want something with high AC that can just laugh in the dungeon boss's face. Not sure the best way to go about this, and was looking to the forums for creative ideas.

Thanks in advance.

AC is not the end-all, be-all. Layered defenses are important - you need DR and strong saves more than AC.

I'd recommend you give My Barbarian Tank a try. Invulnerable Rager & Urban Barbarian with Superstition and the Stalwart feat line. Sky-high saves, good AC and awesome DR. Best non-Paladin tank I've ever played.

Add dwarf , dwarf saves feats /trait ( glory if the old) and ton of hp...


Wiggz wrote:
Crysknife wrote:
A couple of monks levels are great (and useful also to get crane style).
Unfortunately, Crane Style is no longer a worthwhile option. :-(

Totally disagree !

-1 / +4 dodge and extra 4 vs 1 attack for a dex full plate shield with tower shield (attack unarmed ) has AC .... Of wow.

Shadow Lodge

666bender wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
Crysknife wrote:
A couple of monks levels are great (and useful also to get crane style).
Unfortunately, Crane Style is no longer a worthwhile option. :-(

Totally disagree !

-1 / +4 dodge and extra 4 vs 1 attack for a dex full plate shield with tower shield (attack unarmed ) has AC .... Of wow.

Skip Tower Shield, it has a Max Dex of 2 that can't be increased. Instead, use a Mithral Heavy Shield, Mithral Plate, and be a Finesse character to max out Dex. Best when mixed with Armor Training.


Moderate AC is optimal for the best tanks. You must also be the biggest physical threat on the field, forcing enemies to focus on you before anything else with their alternative being certain death.

Powerful paladins have magic options, and barbarians have anti-magic options so both of them are ideal on this front.

One can also cheese up a druid pretty well to serve the same purpose, also 9th level spells.


Claxon wrote:

AC is probably the least important facet of attempt to "tank" in Pathfinder.

As you can't force people to attack you with the exception of the Antagonize feat (which works very poorly), you need to convince them to attack you rather than your ally.

No, you need to stand in their way. That means narrow dungeon corridors (hmm, where would we find those?) or the spellcasters casting battlefield control spells- which is about the best thing they can do anyway.

Yes, I know, "Tanks" in D&D are not about "Tanking" a la WoW. (Actually the D&D term came first.)

They are about Tactics and being part of a 4 man team. So, yes, High AC is good, but you also need decent Will and Fort saves, as well as the ability to deal out same nasty damage.

Dwarves work really well. Take Steel Soul and you're set for most saves. Mind you, Dwarves dont make the best Paladins, but Paladins (unless you're foolish and dump WIS) dont need any boosts to saves.

There's value to a reach weapon, decent (but not high) dex and Combat reflexes. Bodyguard.

I'd say Paladin, then Barbarian, then the Cavalier (which does have some weak "aggro" functions in fact and can act as Face and even give Bard-lie boosts.)


Need a hand free, right?


DrDeth wrote:
Claxon wrote:

AC is probably the least important facet of attempt to "tank" in Pathfinder.

As you can't force people to attack you with the exception of the Antagonize feat (which works very poorly), you need to convince them to attack you rather than your ally.

No, you need to stand in their way. That means narrow dungeon corridors (hmm, where would we find those?) or the spellcasters casting battlefield control spells- which is about the best thing they can do anyway.

Yes, I know, "Tanks" in D&D are not about "Tanking" a la WoW. (Actually the D&D term came first.)

They are about Tactics and being part of a 4 man team. So, yes, High AC is good, but you also need decent Will and Fort saves, as well as the ability to deal out same nasty damage.

Dwarves work really well. Take Steel Soul and you're set for most saves. Mind you, Dwarves dont make the best Paladins, but Paladins (unless you're foolish and dump WIS) dont need any boosts to saves.

There's value to a reach weapon, decent (but not high) dex and Combat reflexes. Bodyguard.

I'd say Paladin, then Barbarian, then the Cavalier (which does have some weak "aggro" functions in fact and can act as Face and even give Bard-lie boosts.)

I'm confused Dr. D. You quoted me, and seem like your refuting my statement, but then go on to say pretty much the same sort of things as I said.


Claxon wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Claxon wrote:

AC is probably the least important facet of attempt to "tank" in Pathfinder.

As you can't force people to attack you with the exception of the Antagonize feat (which works very poorly), you need to convince them to attack you rather than your ally.

No, you need to stand in their way. That means narrow dungeon corridors (hmm, where would we find those?) or the spellcasters casting battlefield control spells- which is about the best thing they can do anyway.

Yes, I know, "Tanks" in D&D are not about "Tanking" a la WoW. (Actually the D&D term came first.)

They are about Tactics and being part of a 4 man team. So, yes, High AC is good, but you also need decent Will and Fort saves, as well as the ability to deal out same nasty damage.

Dwarves work really well. Take Steel Soul and you're set for most saves. Mind you, Dwarves dont make the best Paladins, but Paladins (unless you're foolish and dump WIS) dont need any boosts to saves.

There's value to a reach weapon, decent (but not high) dex and Combat reflexes. Bodyguard.

I'd say Paladin, then Barbarian, then the Cavalier (which does have some weak "aggro" functions in fact and can act as Face and even give Bard-lie boosts.)

I'm confused Dr. D. You quoted me, and seem like your refuting my statement, but then go on to say pretty much the same sort of things as I said.

More or less, but I disagree that AC isn't important. Tactics are more important, but AC is not trivial, by any means. So we mostly agree.


DrDeth wrote:
More or less, but I disagree that AC isn't important. Tactics are more important, but AC is not trivial, by any means. So we mostly agree.

I was just saying AC is the least important of the relevant factors. Not that it should be ignored.

Just that Saves, DR, damage output, tactics, and more are all more important than having a high AC. In fact, having an incredibly high AC to the point of having low offensive capabilities means that you get ignored.

So you don't want the enemy to be incapable of harming you and then ignore you because you can't harm them either.


i found that oddly the 2 best tanks are:
inv. barbarian fro huge DR and reach.
the other is a druid - toughness + earth elemental.


When it comes to tanks, there is one CLEAR best option: The defensive Oradin (oracle-based paladin), which lets you base ALL of your defenses on a single ability score.

The build:
1 level of Oracle, with the Lore mystery and the Sidestep Secret revelation.
Level 1 feat: Noble Scion — Scion of War

What this gives you:
-Initiative based on Charisma instead of Dex
-AC based on Charisma instead of Dex
-Reflex Save based on Charisma instead of Dex

You can now wear Celestial Plate with the Max Dex bonus becoming, instead, a Max Cha bonus, making it possible to actually top out your AC.

Granted, Celestial Plate costs around 25k gp. But what you're looking at, at a reasonably low level (by level 8, you should have 22 Charisma and be able to afford Celestial Plate, as well as a ring of protection and amulet of natural armor +1) is:

AC ~ 32 (Shield +2, Armor +12, Cha +6, Natural +1, Deflection +1)
Touch 17, Flat-footed 25

Initiative ~ +10 (with Improved Initiative, allowing you to always move in front of your enemies)

Reflex: ~ +14 (because you're applying charisma twice)
Fort: ~ +14 (depending on con)
Will ~ +12 (depending on wis)

And, of course, giant truckloads of HP.


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I'd also say the second-best tanks, after Paladins, aren't Fighters or Barbarians—they're Rangers.

Rangers get better reflex saves than a Fighter or Barbarian, hit similar HP if you dump points into Con, and get the all-mighty Evasion and Improved Evasion to reduce spell damage, which is really useful against things like Dragons and Destrachans.

Plus, if you can get Combat Reflexes and Greater Snap Shot, your bow becomes a weapon with an AoO weapon with a threat range of FIFTEEN FEET—anyone who charges you or your enemies gets shot full of arrows before they even reach you. Take a three-level dip into Fighter (Archer), and you can trip or disarm with your arrows, allowing you to disable your enemies before they even reach you.


A monk Druid with elemental shape and snake style with some of the snake style combat abilitiys and a high Sence motive becomes preatty hard to his when they are useing a sence motive roll as their ac.


Snake Style only works against one attack per round, as it requires an immediate action to perform (and you only get one of those per round and it uses up your swift action for the next round).

At low levels this might be okay, at higher levels it doesn't help all that much. The cost in feats generally makes it not worthwhile in my opinion.

I feel like people are fixating too hard on AC. For the most part AC is just not as important as other defenses. AC keeps you from taking hp damage. Which is nice. However, you know what the difference between full hp and 1 is? Nada. At least in terms of what your character can do. As long as you're up, you're up. Saves, especially fort and will saves are what you need to worry about more than anything. Reflex saves are typically just for damage. Which again, isn't too troublesome with a big hit die, con, and a wand of CLW for after combat.

Getting blinded in combat or having hold person cast on you is far worse than taking hp damage. Because now you've lost the ability to participate meaningfully in the fight. And these effects usually requires more expensive remedies than a wand of CLW, in terms of team resources or actual gold cost.

Don't make your focus so narrow. It's great if you can make a character with an AC of 100 (just a random number, I don't think such is possible) but if you have a will save of 12 at level 20 because you didn't bother to enhance it you'll be disabled and out of the fight before anyone even bothers to swing at you.


thunderbeard wrote:
When it comes to tanks, there is one CLEAR best option: The defensive Oradin (oracle-based paladin), which lets you base ALL of your defenses on a single ability score.

This is only really the best option if you have some way of making the enemy attack you or if you present some real and credible threat which they cannot ignore.

With so much invested in charisma your strength is going to be lacklustre. With sword and board and no real bonus feats as a Paladin you are going to struggle to put out much damage and you are not likely to have many manoeuvres you can easily use.

Sure you might have loads of personal survivability but you have nothing which actually actively protects your allies.

Personally I consider the druid one of the best tanking classes. They can assume a significant presence on the battlefield with large or huge wild shape, further clog things up with their animal companion and can add extra bodies. A level 9 Suarian Shaman in ankylosaurus form with an aknylosaurus animal companion who summons another ankylosaurus as a standard action is bringing more battlefield domination and limiting enemy actions far more than any purely or mostly martial character is ever likely to manage.


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"There are more things to "tanking", Horatio,
than are dreamt of by your Armor Class"


Adopted trait + the tiefling suicidal trait might be an option you could look at for traits anyway

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/suicidal-tiefling

That includes spells btw

Scarab Sages

Hyanda wrote:

Hello Pathfinders!

I am looking to make a brand new character, and want to make something with insane high defense. I've played many effective skilled damage dealers, so I want the opposite. I want something with high AC that can just laugh in the dungeon boss's face. Not sure the best way to go about this, and was looking to the forums for creative ideas.

Thanks in advance.

You could go with a melee/buff focused cleric.

Only put enough in wisdom to cast your spells and bump strength. (That's right, ignore the high AC target, it's not like he's dealing damage.)

*not as much as the barbarian, who also enjoys the buffs, but he still hurts.

Spoiler:

Dwarven cleric of Torag with defense and earth domains. Alluring trait. Power Attack + Arcane strike. Boots of Striding & Springing for 30' move speed.

Prayer the first round of combat, just to get the oppositions attention


You are missing g the point on the Druid earth elemental build ...
Enter the ground for improve cover , getting improve evasion. Huge armor class and no AOO movement.no one can ignore you as you spell and hit hard .

Silver Crusade

A build using Combat Patrol?

Dark Archive

I would go Caviler honor guard archetype order of the dragon until level 8 then I would go Stalwart Defender. You get a lot of neat tricks to help your team, and the AC/DR to survive. Not to mention an animal companion.


thunderbeard wrote:

I'd also say the second-best tanks, after Paladins, aren't Fighters or Barbarians—they're Rangers.

Rangers get better reflex saves than a Fighter or Barbarian, hit similar HP if you dump points into Con, and get the all-mighty Evasion and Improved Evasion to reduce spell damage, which is really useful against things like Dragons and Destrachans.

I love Rangers, but unless the foe is throwing Dazing spells, reflex is by far the least important save.


Claxon wrote:


I feel like people are fixating too hard on AC. For the most part AC is just not as important as other defenses. AC keeps you from taking hp damage. Which is nice. However, you know what the difference between full hp and 1 is? Nada. At least in terms of what your character can do. As long as you're up, you're up. Saves, especially fort and will saves are what you need to worry about more than anything. Reflex saves are typically just for damage. Which again, isn't too troublesome with a big hit die, con, and a wand of CLW for after combat.

Getting blinded in combat or having hold person cast on you is far worse than taking hp damage. Because now you've lost the ability to participate meaningfully in the fight. And these effects usually requires more expensive remedies than a wand of CLW, in terms of team resources or actual gold cost.

Right, Will save is Key, Fort save is important and Reflex is least. This is why I laugh at so called "builds" that dump WIS. It's a bad idea- even for classes with Good Will saves.

The Exchange

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Low Will saves? Maybe that's why they're called "tanks" - they're big, heavy war machines that can be 'captured' and used by the other side. ;)

Scarab Sages

A dex-based Flowing Monk can be an awesome tank. Very high AC, Saves, and CMD. Redirection means you can interrupt attacks against allies, and unbalancing counter means you render anyone you hit with an AoO flatfooted.

Damage is sub-par unless you get an agile weapon or aomf, but you have excellent control and defense.


Captian Von Spicy Wiener wrote:

Adopted trait + the tiefling suicidal trait might be an option you could look at for traits anyway

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/suicidal-tiefling

That includes spells btw

The best 'tank' our party has ever had was the Tiefling Paladin with an Oracle dip we just played all the way through a non-Mythic Wrath of the Righteous. Not only did he take that trait and lots of Extra Lay on Hands to maximize his favored class bonus (which is killer), but he also had other little tricks like Divine Interference to keep even foes across the battlefield safe. The one level of Oracle gave him Side-Step Secret and 1st level spell fodder for DI which rounded him out nicely.

The second best was the Barbarian Tank, who's build I have posted often. Nothing beats Superstition + DR 16/- at 12th or 13th level.


It is very fun to have super high armour and run around inside threatened squares with impunity.

Is it useful? Not really.

My suggestion is to consider a halfing Inquisitor: Preacher with the Defense SubDomain. Grab yourself a heavy shield and breastplate and you'll have a respectable +8 AC to begin with.

Halfings have +1 AC and +1 all their saves, they can get the Lucky Halfling feat and roll a save for a friend if they fail.

As an Inquisitor you access to multiple spells that improve your AC as well as the AC of your party. You also have the Bane ability that lets you dish out solid damage without heavy investment. Further more your judgments let you swift action tailor your defenses to the battle, so you can gain AC, saves, resistances or regeneration as the moment comes up.

As a Preacher you can instantly add +4 to your AC any time something would hit. Additionally you can force the enemy to reroll anytime they would hit your party members and they will love you for it.

As a follower of the Defense domain you gain: +1 all saves at level 1 and a further +1 every 5 levels. You can emit a 20ft aura that adds +2 AC and CMD to all yourself + friends for 3+wis mod/rounds a day. At level 8 you can throw out a 30ft aura that adds +1 AC and resist all 5 for as many rounds as you have cleric levels, this increases as you level.

So to summarise at level 1 you have 8 armour +1 small +1 judgement +2 domain and +1 halfling +1 domain all saves.
22 AC +2 all saves without counting ability or class bonuses.
If you ever get "hit" you can instantly add 4 AC and if your allies get hit you can force a reroll of the attack. Kinda cool?


I still vote some STalwart Defender love. He's just a darn bugger. and honestly dfense feels like the only thing it cando persay

Scarab Sages

Brad McDowell wrote:
A build using Combat Patrol?

Fighter using: Combat Patrol, Step Up, Stand Still, Pin Down

No opponent relying on melee or movement can ignore you.

Scarab Sages

Lincoln Hills wrote:
Low Will saves? Maybe that's why they're called "tanks" - they're big, heavy war machines that can be 'captured' and used by the other side. ;)

Play a dwarf with Steel Soul?


The synthesist summoner looks pretty tanky, though you will need to burn a feat for shield proficiency.

Scarab Sages

Melkiador wrote:
The synthesist summoner looks pretty tanky, though you will need to burn a feat for shield proficiency.

Synthesist gets shield bonuses as a class feature, starting with a +2 at 4th level.

Scarab Sages

Dwarven tank: Jorn Duersten

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