What constitutes a "willing" creature?


Rules Questions


Please note that I'm posting to Rules Questions, not to Advice, or Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew. As far as the title topic is concerned, I really only want RAW/RAI. I will gladly accept suggestions on alternative ways of shifting a massive creature to another plane when he's incapable of expressing any opinion about making the trip.

Following the end of a certain AP, our party has the opportunity to bring about the death of a god. Doing so requires that we drag the body of his [currently mindless] avatar to another plane and perform a specific ritual. The avatar in question is 20' tall and weighs over 10 tons.

The mindless trait effectively removes the avatar's INT score and makes it immune to mind-affecting effects; we can't compel it to do anything. The trait says nothing about reducing/eliminating WIS and thus affecting Will saves.

Plane shift can transport up to eight willing creatures to another plane.

Does a "willing" creature have to be able to act on its own volition, or is a "willing" creature also any one that fails the Will save that plane shift allows? (And if the former, then what is the purpose of the Will save in plane shift?)

What I'm trying to establish here, one way or the other, would serve as a general case for any number of spells that reference "willing" creatures; I'm focusing on plane shift because it's likely to be the only way we might be able to transport a Huge creature of that weight. It's an outsider in the shape of a monstrous humanoid; reduce person won't work; as the avatar of a god it can't be killed except in very specific circumstances such as the ritual I mentioned, so we can't kill it here, take advantage of the corpse-as-object rule and manipulate its dimensions that way.

EDIT: An iron flask has almost no chance of working as a method of transport, since the avatar can only fail a DC 19 Will save with a natural 1.

Trap the soul is a theoretical possibility. Our sole arcane caster (a witch) doesn't currently know the spell, and 8th level scrolls are hard to come by, as is the 28,000gp gemstone we'd need.


A willing creature is anyone who cannot object to the spell. Someone who could object to the spell and chooses to do so is entitled to a Will save.

If it is not entitled to a Will save, then it is by default, willing.


Willing does not mean fails a Save. If there is a save to fail, then a creature is unwilling typically. However:

Quote:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

So basically, no. The only way you could accomplish this is if the creature is unconscious. With the avatar of a god this may or may not be possible.

Of course, you can't be playing an adventure path because gods aren't stated up and you couldn't win on Golarion, against a deity.

Edit: In addition, looking at the spell you can send up to 8 willing creatures or a single unwilling creature.

So, if you can knock it unconscious it counts as willing.

If you cannot you can use plane shift to transport it by itself, but it gets a Will save against the effect.

But, you will have to planshift your group there afterwards, with another casting. And, you have to deal with the fact that there's 0 chance you will end up at the same place on the plane.


Damon Griffin wrote:
Does a "willing" creature have to be able to act on its own volition...

Yes. This one.

Quote:
[W]hat is the purpose of the Will save in plane shift?
Plane Shift wrote:
Target creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands

Plane Shift can target either a single creature (no mention of willing) OR up to eight willing creature. If you target only a single creature that creature does not have to be willing and gets a will save to resist the effect; if you want to transport multiple creatures they must all be willing.

master_marshmallow wrote:

A willing creature is anyone who cannot object to the spell. Someone who could object to the spell and chooses to do so is entitled to a Will save.

If it is not entitled to a Will save, then it is by default, willing.

I cannot think of a single example of a situation where a creature would be denied a will save, can you?


master_marshmallow wrote:

A willing creature is anyone who cannot object to the spell. Someone who could object to the spell and chooses to do so is entitled to a Will save.

If it is not entitled to a Will save, then it is by default, willing.

Is this in the rules somewhere?


The will save is to force the plane shift on an unwilling creature, the target line is two separate options. A willing creature is just that, it has to be acting of its own will, agreeing to the plane shift. So by RAW, you can shift the target to the other plane, shift yourselves, and then locate the avatar again using divination. Gate would also work if you have a means to push the avatar through it, which wouldnt be too bad, as a character with ant haul and a Str of 29 can drag 10 tons. Adding enlarge makes it 27. If you can beat the fort save, you could also force punch the avatar through, as that is size not weight dependent.


master_marshmallow wrote:

A willing creature is anyone who cannot object to the spell. Someone who could object to the spell and chooses to do so is entitled to a Will save.

If it is not entitled to a Will save, then it is by default, willing.

Citation, or it didn't happen.


Calth wrote:
Gate would also work if you have a means to push the avatar through it, which wouldn't be too bad, as a character with ant haul and a Str of 29 can drag 10 tons.

Hmm. Gate says "...is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice) oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you)."

Is there any reason a 20' horizontal gate could not be opened under the feet of the avatar, causing it to just drop through?

Our cleric cannot yet cast 9th level spells on his own, and 9th level scrolls are even harder to come by than 8th level scrolls.

Claxon wrote:
The only way you could accomplish this is if the creature is unconscious. With the avatar of a god this may or may not be possible.

This I think we can do. It regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect, but it has no special ability to remain conscious while below zero hit points.


Damon Griffin wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

A willing creature is anyone who cannot object to the spell. Someone who could object to the spell and chooses to do so is entitled to a Will save.

If it is not entitled to a Will save, then it is by default, willing.

Citation, or it didn't happen.

Already quoted by Claxon above.

PRD wrote:


Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing...

The implied converse then is that conscious creatures are not willing (unless of course they choose to be).


Damon Griffin wrote:


Is there any reason a 20' horizontal gate could not be opened under the feet of the avatar, causing it to just drop through?

Should work in theory, though if I were GM I'd give the creature a reflex save the same as though you'd cast create pit underneath it.


The question of whether things are "willing" is non-trivial. Do you have to know what you're agreeing to? Can you lie to people? Like, can I take a bunch of people with me and plane shift... somewhere other than where they thought I'd take them?

If I use a wish to wish someone from the prison they're in to a safehouse, do they have to know this is happening to count as "willing"?

Note also that "asleep" is not a kind of "unconscious" in the formal condition-having sense in Pathfinder.


Yes, an important note would be that sleeping creatures do not count as "unconscious" for the purpose of spells. They will still be entitled to a will save against spells that allow such. If a spell is willing only, with no alternative a sleeping individual cannot be affected unless they choose to be.

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