The FAQ states:
Fighter: Can I learn a new fighter bonus feat in place of one of my armor proficiency feats?
No. Despite wording in the Armor Proficiency feats, fighters (and other classes) have a class ability that grants proficiency in those armors--it doesn't actually grant those specific feats. Therefore, the fighter's ability to learn a new feat in place of another feat does not apply to these proficiencies.
Does this mean that the Fighter doesn't meet the prerequisites for any feats that require (Type) Armor Proficiency, such as Mythic (Type) Armor?
It does not mean that.
The fighter has all the necessary armor proficiencies when qualifying for other feats. What the fighter does NOT have is a feat that granted him the armor proficiency. The issue addressed by the FAQ is that a fighter can exchange feats for other feats (assuming both the old and new feat qualify as fighter bonus feats).
The question asks if a fighter who does not want the heavy armor proficiency can trade the presumed Heavy Armor Proficiency feat for something else. The FAQ specifies that the fighter does not actually have the feat, though he does have the proficiency.
Fighters have those feats. But some people wanted to try to swap those out for chosen feats and the Fighter class doesn't allow that.
Except the FAQ clearly states that Fighters don't have those feats.
There is Armor Proficiency that lets you wear armor. There are two ways to get this character trait: A class which grants it or a feat which provides it. The proficiency is what is required for wearing armor or obtaining other feats.
There is Armor Proficiency that lets you wear armor. There are two ways to get this character trait: A class which grants it or a feat which provides it. The proficiency is what is required for wearing armor or obtaining other feats.
No. Everyone gets Armor Proficiency feat as a bonus feat with the first level of the class. The feat description says so. FAQ overrides this, by saying that everyone has Armor Proficiency ability, instead of the feat. Medium Armor Proficiency requires Light Armor Proficiency feast as a prerequisite. Which no one has.
Since you already seem to be dead set on your answer, why did you decide to create this thread?
Curiousity? Discussion? Maybe I'm missing something?
Since you already seem to be dead set on your answer, why did you decide to create this thread?
I enjoy the stubborn who refuse to listen to answers that disagree with the opinion in their own mind. But you already beat me to the cudgel.
In effect, a fighter has a "feat-like ability" by which he acquires his armor proficiency. Indeed, all first-level characters with any proficiency in a weapon or armor has such.
No where in the CRB does it say that characters get the armor proficiency feats. It merely says that they start with a proficiency, which is not the same thing as a feat.
Do you assume that monks are given the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for each exotic weapon allowed by class? If so, this is an assumption on your part, and the community is gently trying to steer you away from assuming that proficiency can only be conveyed to a character via Feat. This is a mistaken assumption.
No where in the CRB does it say that characters get the armor proficiency feats. It merely says that they start with a proficiency, which is not the same thing as a feat.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/armor-proficiency-light
Special: All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
No where in the CRB does it say that characters get the armor proficiency feats. It merely says that they start with a proficiency, which is not the same thing as a feat.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/armor-proficiency-light
Special: All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
The same text (Modified for appropriate classes) is present for the Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency feats as well. Page 118 of the CRB (5th printing, if that matters).
Looks like another case a ruling being made without fully considering the RAW implications, and dropping a huge general rule to fix a narrow specific problem. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just say "No, Fighters may not swap out proficiency feats" than to change how all armor proficiency works for all classes?
All that said, it's all but certain that RAI is that if you're proficient in light armor from class abilities, you qualify for anything that requires light armor proficiency as a prerequisite.
The same text (Modified for appropriate classes) is present for the Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency feats as well. Page 118 of the CRB (5th printing, if that matters).No where in the CRB does it say that characters get the armor proficiency feats. It merely says that they start with a proficiency, which is not the same thing as a feat.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/armor-proficiency-light
Special: All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
Yes, and? As has been noted, the FAQ states that this is no longer true, and no one has those feats.
Please link to the PRD, and not d20pfsrd. One is official, while the other is 3rd party.
Also, be sure to read the guide below on "How to format your text". When you just copy and paste the URL of a link Paizo often breaks it in half as an attempt to curtail spam.
And the inevitable "PFSRD not official so it doesn't count" remark would be why I gave the page number in the CRB.
|
Yes, and? As has been noted, the FAQ states that this is no longer true, and no one has those feats.The same text (Modified for appropriate classes) is present for the Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency feats as well. Page 118 of the CRB (5th printing, if that matters).No where in the CRB does it say that characters get the armor proficiency feats. It merely says that they start with a proficiency, which is not the same thing as a feat.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/armor-proficiency-light
Special: All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
And that's fine. Nothing in this FAQ is to be construed to mean that fighters are no longer able to qualify for other things that require such feats.
Please link to the PRD, and not d20pfsrd. One is official, while the other is 3rd party.
Also, be sure to read the guide below on "How to format your text". When you just copy and paste the URL of a link Paizo often breaks it in half as an attempt to curtail spam.
On a related subject, Fighters can't take this feat:
In all honesty fighters loose access to nothing. There is no "faq ruling that breaks the game" the only way a fighters proficiency in armor as stated prevents him access to other feats is if your gm is a jerk.
So basically if your gm tells you you don't qualify for the mythic stuff because you don't have the feats. I suggest packing your things up and going home. Then find another gm.
So why can't Fighters take Mythic Martial Weapon Proficiency? The feat's prerequisite line says "Prerequisites: Martial Weapon Proficiency, base attack bonus +6." Fighters have Martial Weapon Proficiency. It doesn't say you need "Martial Weapon Proficiency Feat".
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fighters have those feats. But some people wanted to try to swap those out for chosen feats and the Fighter class doesn't allow that.Except the FAQ clearly states that Fighters don't have those feats.
You are keying in on one aspect of that FAQ without understanding the question they are answering.
The absurd question is basically "Hey I get all these extra feats, and I get a class ability to swap feats for other feats. I want to Swap my Armor (Heavy) feat for Weapon Spec Longsword!."
The answer they are giving is "no you can't" without articulating it more succinctly. They should have worded it like this "you get the feats but only feats you select from a list of combat feats can be swapped out."
The only Mythic Weapon and Armor feats appear to be 3rd party feats.
They do however just say they require the proficiency under the prerequisites, which the fighter have, whether its a feat or not.
The answer they are giving is "no you can't" without articulating it more succinctly. They should have worded it like this "you get the feats but only feats you select from a list of combat feats can be swapped out."
Dev team makes rulings without even opening the rulebook all the time. It's maddening. How they should have worded it is by not giving out those bonus feats, and let fighters be proficient with stuff as a class ability. Selling off proficiency bonus feats was a well-known 3.5 hack.
Also, by the current rules, the CRB classes get proficiency as a class ability AND as bonus feats. Meaning that all the proficiencies you sell of with archetypes come back as bonus feats, and that Witches and Arcanists are actually proficient with light armor.
On a related subject, Fighters can't take this feat:
Lemme guess, this is b++~+!*# overflow from The Gaming Den?
You'll notice it says you just need Martial Weapon Proficiency. Not "Martial Weapon Proficiency from the Feat and not the class ability that says "You have proficiency in martial weapons".
The answer they are giving is "no you can't" without articulating it more succinctly. They should have worded it like this "you get the feats but only feats you select from a list of combat feats can be swapped out."
Dev team makes rulings without even opening the rulebook all the time. It's maddening. How they should have worded it is by not giving out those bonus feats, and let fighters be proficient with stuff as a class ability. Selling off proficiency bonus feats was a well-known 3.5 hack.
Also, by the current rules, the CRB classes get proficiency as a class ability AND as bonus feats. Meaning that all the proficiencies you sell of with archetypes come back as bonus feats, and that Witches and Arcanists are actually proficient with light armor.
It seems to be a consequence of the (IMO flawed) policy of only issuing errata in time with new printings of the books. So when rules issues that could easily be fixed by a quick and simple errata show up, sometimes you get messy attempts to address the issue without actually changing the written text, even though it requires making things a lot more complicated than necessary.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Selling off proficiency bonus feats was a well-known 3.5 hack.
proficiencies you sell of with archetypes come back as bonus feats
We play vastly different games by very different readings of the rules.
I don't agree you could do that in 3.5, in PF, and I also don't agree you can sell them off and they come back.
I get that you think these are facts based on the text, I just have a different interpretation of the text that doesn't come to the same conclusions as you.
messy attempts to address the issue without actually changing the written text
Mostly it comes down to "you are reading that text wrong, let me help you out it means this ..."
Selling off proficiency bonus feats was a well-known 3.5 hack.
proficiencies you sell of with archetypes come back as bonus feats
We play vastly different games by very different readings of the rules.
I don't agree you could do that in 3.5, in PF,
It was done with Embrace the Dark Chaos followed by Shun the Dark Chaos, not any kind of retraining like the rules from Ultimate Campaign. Elves in particular were spelled out as receiving martial weapon proficiency as a bonus feat four times.
and I also don't agree you can sell them off and they come back.I get that you think these are facts based on the text, I just have a different interpretation of the text that doesn't come to the same conclusions as you.
I wouldn't actually allow it as a GM or try it as a player, because I consider text to be a vehicle of intent, and clear errors are just errors, not unintentional permissions. But by a strict RAW reading, I am right and you are wrong, and let me walk you through it.
Let's take the Fighter.
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields)
That's proficiency as a a class feature. Note that this part says nothing about bonus feats; it's just proficiency.
Then we slap on an archetype, Unarmed Fighter, that loses proficiency with heavy armor. Now we've lost the heavy armor proficiency class feature. We're still a Fighter, though.
And then we accidentally look at p. 118, and see that as a Fighter, we get Heavy Armor proficiency as a bonus feat. That's not a class feature described in the class - and given away as part of the archetype; that's an attribute of the feat.
But yes, of course the "loses X proficiency" should be taken as a colloquialism that includes "AND you don't get the bonus feat proficiency either", even though those proficiency feats are not actually class features.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
But by a strict RAW reading, I am right and you are wrong, and let me walk you through it.
That mentality is a problem. It is also something that only happens in a vacuum of online space. It leads to people coming to a game with an expectation of awkward interpretations that as you say "no GM will allow" and when the GM doesn't allow it they feel the GM is being a jerk.
Paizo view (as has been explained multiple times) is that if you are reading the text to get some "too good to be true" meaning then you are reading it wrong.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Where's that quote by SKR when you need it. You know, the one where he tells people the rules are written with the assumption the reader isn't stupid?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
So why can't Fighters take Mythic Martial Weapon Proficiency? The feat's prerequisite line says "Prerequisites: Martial Weapon Proficiency, base attack bonus +6." Fighters have Martial Weapon Proficiency. It doesn't say you need "Martial Weapon Proficiency Feat".
Exactly this. For the FAQ to be a problem you need to find a prerequisite that specifies the need for a X Proficiency feat, not just X Proficiency.