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The "dead at -CON" rule works GREAT for low-level characters, because low-CR monsters don't do more than 10 points (or so) of damage per blow, so the PC basically CAN'T die (unless the DM gangs monsters up on him).
But at higher levels, the monster's damage becomes so high that a PC with still 1/4 of their HP could be taken to below -CON in just one blow, nevermind criticals or being hit by several things per round.
The proposed system below is based on 4e, but modified a little bit. I'm looking for something that 1)can give the other PC's several rounds to get to the dying PC, 2)can't outright kill the PC "accidentally" (as per the example above), but 3)can still kill the PC if they roll badly, or if my monster REALLY wants to kill them.
It would also be nice to have a way to leave the PC's unconscious (to capture them, etc.) without danger of dying, which I *think* this will do ok. Unless one PC drops (goes unconscious) early the battle, then rolls badly for the DST's until his comrades drop.
Feedback? Clarifying questions? Comments? Obvious problems (like Bleed-any ideas?)?
Thanks!
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When a character first drops to 0 or negative HP, he is at DeathCon=1, and Dying. Negative HP is not tracked; all Dying characters are assumed to be at 0 HP (any additional damage you take has no effect on HP, you stay at 0 HP).
DeathCon = 1 : you are Dying but conscious (this allows the PC to make a choice – continue fighting, or seek healing)
.....Add any limitations you think are appropriate, like "all rolls at –2", or "can only take a Move or Standard action", etc.
DeathCon = 2 : you are Dying and unconscious
DeathCon = 3 : you are Dying and unconscious
DeathCon = 4 : you are dead, Jim
You continue to make allowed saving throws to end various effects thru DeathCon=3.
Dying and Stabilizing
-When you are Dying, you need to make a Death Saving Throw (DST) at the beginning of your round.
.....On a 1-9, your DeathCon increases by 1.
.....On a 10-19, your DeathCon does not change.
.....On a 20, you automatically Stabilize.
-A teammate can also Stabilize you as normal with a DC=15 Heal skill check.
-When you are Stable, you no longer make DST’s, you stay at your current DeathCon (but see the next section).
Healing and Damage
-While your HP=0, any amount of further damage automatically increases your DeathCon by 1, and makes you Dying if you were Stable.
-At DeathCon 2 or 3, a Coup de Grace acts mostly as normal : Fortitude save vs DC=(10 + critical damage) or die.
-Any amount of healing restores you to that many HP (because you've been at 0), and automatically Stabilizes you.
-However, your DeathCon value does not change until you get 8 hours rest, at which point it goes to 0 (or optionally just decreases by 1).
.....Entering DeathCon means you've taken a lot of significant damage, and it sticks around for a while. Once your HP>0, there's nothing that can reduce DeathCon other than 8 hours rest.)
-If you take damage down to <= 0 HP again, your DeathCon automatically increases by 1.
Miscellaneous
-Regeneration adds to HP as long as HP > 0; after that, any amount of regeneration automatically lowers your DeathCon by 1 each round.
I gotta say I actually really like this. Only thing I don't like is theres no mechanic to go from positive hit points to deathcon2 in one swing... Some folks just go from fine to knocked out in one swing. That's what party members are supposed to be there to help out with. Needs a little fine tuning or anyone with fast healin 1 will go from 0 to stabilized and peachy next round automatically but I like the concept.
^ what he said ^
I'll have to run this by my group, as we're starting to get into high-level play now.
I want to say something like each stage of deathcon you come back with leaves you with a stacking 25% penalty to damage and of spellfailure chance.
You can be brought back to positive hit points but not only are you right on deaths door still, but you're not just able to dive back in for another round of full attacks at full power for a while.
You can be brought back from deaths door but that emergency party escape plane shift might not fire off as easy with your bell rung and your fingers fractured.
Going from 5 hit points to -60 in one swing, then getting hit by a cure light wand, then being able to full attack again at full strength or being able to confidently cast that 'lets get outta here spell' is the party I'd like to mitigate. If you've been to deathcon 3 and someone hits you with a heal spell. yeah. You're back in one piece but you're not 'back in fighting shape'...
That would even fix both the fast healing auto stabilize character *and* no positive to defcon 2 *and* cure light wound wand issue for me because because even if they just went to 0 then to 1, they're still taking a huge nerf to damage and casting by having been to 0 and back each time it happens.
I particularly like how additional damage increases your deathcon. Gives an enemy a good excuse to keep full attacking you even if the first hit dropped you.
Stay.... Down... You... Mother... *bleep*
Thanks all for the feedback!
Vincent - to address some of your thoughtful comments :
I left the PC conscious at DeathCon1 so they could have a choice to continue to fight on heroically for just a few more rounds (knowing they're dying) to save the princess/sword/whatever, but if you want them to go unconscious at DeathCon1, just modify it! :)
If you're interested in applying penalties to the recently-near-dead, see THIS LINK. It's for 4e, but you can get ideas from it (some of his text is white in my browser, so highlight his entire post to see all of it).
Maybe the easiest thing to do (once their HP are > 0) is make the penalties a function of the PC's current DeathCon value ("all rolls are at -2*DeathCon" and "spell failure of 10*DeathCon in %"). That's just for example, you can use whatever numbers sound good to you. And those penalties would last until the DeathCon goes away, whether that's after one night's sleep or several.
And while I kind of like that idea (thanks!), I'm also going to play devil's advocate and point out that being in DeathCon1,2,3 is really just the equivalent of being at negative HP in the standard system - they are dying, not dead (maybe "mortally wounded" would be a good description?). And PC's healed from negative HP don't get any penalties at all, so why should PC's back from DeathCon? Not saying it's a bad idea, just food for thought...
Also, I don't have access to all of 4e's material, but from what I can gather that's exactly how their death&dying system works - you basically CAN go from 5 HP to -60 in one round, get a single healing and wake up rarin' to go! Hmmm, the phrases "mostly dead" and "I'm not dead yet, I'm getting better" are running thru my head now... :)
And if anyone's interested in *WHY* the monsters should continue to pound on the PC's once they're unconscious (besides the fact that a single healing spell or channel energy can bring them right back into the fight again), see the excellent discussion at THIS LINK. FWIW, the first time my DM added a Cleric to the bad guys, I learned real quick that they have to be *DEAD* to stay down!
I ran some simulations on the system, and discovered that for a creature (PC, monster, BBEG, whatever) that has just entered DeathCon1 and is left totally alone (runs away, his comrades can't get to them because they're in battle, etc.) :
He has a 75% chance to die, and a 25% chance to stabilize on his own.
If he dies, it takes on average 6 rounds (3 minimum if he fails all his DST's).
If he stabilizes, that happens on average in about 4 rounds.
If he stabilizes, he has an even chance of stabilizing in DeathCon1, 2 or 3 (no one state is favored over another).
I also wondered how much difference having to fail 2 rolls to die vs. 3 rolls makes, so if DeathCon3 = dead :
He has an 80% chance to die, and a 20% chance to stabilize on his own.
If he dies, it takes on average 4 rounds (2 minimum if he fails all his DST's).
If he stabilizes, that happens on average in about 3 rounds.
If he stabilizes, he has an even chance of stabilizing in DeathCon1, or 2 (no one state is favored over another)
I kind of prefer needing to fail 3 rolls, it gives a PC's comrades more time to get to them to Stabilize or heal them.
Anyone else have any thoughts on the system? Any potential problems you can see?
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DeathCon = 4
I see what you did there. ;)
As for this idea..
I like the concept overall, however it does completely take away the idea of someone being killed outright in a single hit.
Now that may have been the intent, but it does seem like something that should still be possible. Massive damage, environmental hp damage, attacks that should be devastating in some way, decapitation, etc.
Perhaps a little bit about if the blow that reduces you to <=0 HP is a critical hit, then you are lowered a DeathCon level by each multiplier of the critical.
So normal crits (x2) sets you to DeathCon 2 right off the bat. x3 weapons means you are already at DeathCon 3. And x4 weapons (like a pickaxe or scythe) means you can die outright.
A critical hit should be scary as hell, especially if it takes you to below 0. The side effect being that a x4 crit that brings you below 0 likely was going to kill the character in the normal rules anyways, so it's not a huge change.
Kaisoku -
Actually, yes my intent is to take away the chances of someone being "accidentally" killed in a single hit. What does that mean?
Let's say that CR 1,2,3 monsters can do a max of 10 HP damage per attack. So a 1st-3rd level PC *can't die* on a single attack : even if they're down to 1 HP, the next attack can only take them to -9 HP, and even if their CON is only 10, they're still alive (that's the basic most-of-the-time idea, I know it's easy to come up with exceptions).
Problem is, even by 7th level an "average" monster is doing maybe 25 HP per attack (and some can do up to 35!), so a PC with even 10 HP left stands a very good chance of skipping "dying" and going right to "dead" on the next attack! The player might have thought with 10 HP left and a buffer of (say) -14 HP until he's dead, he was safe, so he kept on fighting - and then suddenly he's dead. That's what I call "accidentally" killing a PC, and I personally don't like that, for multiple reasons I won't go into. If that doesn't bother you (not you personally, Kaisoku, but anyone reading this), then this new system is not for you.
So, the DeathCon system allows the DM to do as much damage as he likes without worry, and lets the player know exactly when he's in danger of dying, and allows his comrades some time to do something about it, but still hopefully leaves enough of a chance of death to make it exciting.
However, that being said, I *really* like your idea of criticals taking you beyond DeathCon1 to start with! And you did it without coming up with any "HP thresholds" for what DeathCon to go to, which fits right in with the spirit of the system! Thanks!
Just curious, anyone know if there's any/some/many monsters out there with x4 crit natural damages?
I'd also like to suggest modifying Kaisoku's idea : ANY critical increases your DeathCon by +2 instead of +1 (including the attack that first takes you to negative HP). Yeah, that nerfs the higher-multiplier crits, but it's simple. And the high-mult crits will still take HP down much quicker.... And I'm not dead-set on using this mod, just suggesting it.
ALL :
For some reason, that just made me think of something else - save-based damages. Should a PC in DeathCon always increase his DeathCon by 1 whether or not he makes his save (that's save to 1/2-damage obviously, not no-damage)? I guess that applies only to DeathCon1 anyway, since it's kind of hard for an unconscious character to make a Reflex save. :)
Yeah, I like the idea of making the game more heroic/less random death, so I totally get the idea you've got here.
Having crit increase based on multiplier makes it so that crit range isn't inherently better than crit multplier. Having a larger crit range means you'll crit more often, which means more likely having a crit be your felling blow. Whereas a low crit range, but higher mutiplier makes a larger impact when the crit does happen.
Perhaps toning it back to just stage 2 on normal crits, and stage 3 on x3 or higher ranges. It's not like x4 weapons happen all that often (and no, I've never heard of it on a natural weapon).
From what I can tell from looking thru PF's bestiary spreadsheet, very few monsters have anything other than the default "crit on 20 for x2". But I'm no expert.
And you're right, only a few weapons are x4 : pick (light or heavy), pickaxe, scythe, tri-bladed katar, gnome-hooked hammer - and that's it on the main weapon page!
I think making the increase in DeathCon equal to the crit multiplier of the attack (no crit = +1) is a great idea!
People can individually tweak the x4 weapons issue themselves, altho a cap at +3 is fine - that would prevent any possibility of going from living to dead in one blow (rare as that might happen).
Two more thoughts -
Making the increase in DeathCon equal to the crit multiplier also provides the "conscious to unconscious" mechanism that Vincent was looking for : if you're at HP>0, DeathCon0 and take a critical that brings you to <= 0 HP, that also increases your DeathCon by (at least) 2, so you're unconscious.
It also provides for immediate death with a Coup de Grace (no Fortitude save needed), since you're dealing an automatic critical, and at DeathCon2 or 3, which automatically takes you to DeathCon4 or worse. But you could make Coup de Grace an exception, and keep the Fortitude roll if you want to give your players one last chance to survive, since it scales with level.
P.S. added later - another advantage to this system is that it allows PC's to stay in battle down to close to 0 HP without fear of suddenly being dead. But they are aware that the closer they get to 0 HP, the better the odds the next attack can take them into DeathCon.
I'm liking this. To help keep a little bit of danger, I'd add one thing personally. I don't like massive damage, and its almost the opposite of this, BUT it may have use here. You could have a character make a massive damage save if a hit does half their max hit points and puts them at 0 or die, or, as I prefer, have the failed massive damage save add an extra death con. Then they'd go straight to 2 and unconscious. This allows a big whallop of a hit to still be impressive and knock someone straight out while still making sure they're not flat out dead.
Having a killing crit add an extra death con is good too.
I like this system; I do have two quick questions:
1. How would the Diehard feat work, would you essentially work under Deathcon 2 & 3 as if you where at Deathcon 1 and then die normally at Deathcon 4?
2. How about Orc Ferocity, would it be 1 per day act in Deathcon 2 …
Davick - I didn't like Massive Damage before, but you're right, now it fits right in with DeathCon! Like you said, just make it add +2 to DeathCon.
ChaiGuy - regarding Diehard, including the auto-Stabilize part is easy. Trying to stay with the spirit of the feat, I'd say that at DeathCon2 and 3 you'd be conscious but Staggered, and could take any Move actions, but taking a Standard action bumps your DeathCon level up by 1 (basically the exact same rules, but +1 DeathCon instead of -1 HP). Problem is, that probably gives you fewer Standard actions in the DeathCon version than in the "-CON is dead" version.
For Orc Ferocity, how about : once/day, you do not have to roll a Death Saving Throw on your first round in DeathCon? That guarantees you one extra action.
Drachasor - thanks, but I'm not interested in treating DeathCons as injuries. Altho if you want to apply penalties for having recently come back from DeathCon as Vincent would like to, and have 8 hours of rest remove 1 level of DeathCon instead of all of them, I suppose you could sort of think of them as injuries.
I'm not sure what advantage there would be in going into DeathCon when you reach -CON HP instead of 0 HP, it would just allow you to be hit maybe once or twice more. And that's kind of missing the basic concept of being in DeathCon, which is that it replaces the 0 HP to -CON HP range of "Dying".
But I do agree with you that there can't be any magic that can reduce DeathCon levels - otherwise, every party will have a caster/potion/wand/whatever that does that, and ho-hum, we've gotten rid of the problem. Coming back from dying should carry at least some consequences for the rest of the day, if not longer.
ALL - anyone who uses this DeathCon system, please let us all know your experiences! I won't be able to use it with my group till the middle of January.
I'm seeing a problem with Coup de Grace :
As written, you make a critical hit, and the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.
Since the target must be Helpless, they must be in DeathCon2 or 3 (unconscious).
So what happens if the target MAKES their save? Technically speaking, they took a critical hit, which means their DeathCon increases by at least 2, so now they're at DeathCon4 or beyond, and dead anyway.
So any player (and DM) who makes their INT roll will quickly figure out that as soon as a target reaches DeathCon2, hit them with a Coup de Grace, and they're done.
This completely short-circuits the whole idea of DeathCon, that it gives you a certain-but-random number of rounds of "dying" for your comrades to help you.
A Coup de Grace at DeathCon2 skips 2 more Death Saving Throw failures, which could give the dying PC several more rounds in which to be saved. Or 2 more "regular" attacks, which could also take several rounds to get in (barring *rolling* a critical, of course).
The only thing I can think of so far is to disallow Coup de Grace completely.
Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions? Thanks!
Ok Drachasor, I think I get what you're saying about that part : damage in one attack that's greater than your CON.
Let me think about it some...
Ok, now I get it. Sorry, but I'm not interested in adding extra features to the PF system (like "Unconscious but not Dying"). I'm actually trying to emulate it as much as possible, just without any chance of bypassing Dying, which can happen all too easily at higher levels as explained above.
(Ok, I did add "Dying but Conscious", but that was because it was easy, and gives the player options. Unconscious but alive doesn't.)
Regarding the Coup de Grace idea - as written above, any more damage already takes a Stable person into Dying again, so I'm afraid that doesn't help. Thanks, tho.
I can't say I like it, if I would want to decrease the chance of accidental death I'd probably add the character lvl / HD to the ammount of hitpoints you can go negative before dying.
Possibly base it on BAB: 2 more damage before dying per +1 BAB.
or Class: 1 more damage per level for sorcs / wizards
2 more damage for most others
3 fighters and barbarians
so a 6th level barbarian with con 16 will not die till reaching -34 hp.
I actually did a complete analysis of the damage done by PF's monsters by level (from their spreadsheet database), and tried many different ways to offset the chance of skipping Dying.
What I finally realized is that ANY method that is based on a HP threshold for death (whether you use CON or add levels or whatever) still allows SOME chance that Dying can be skipped.
This whole DeathCon system's basic assumption is that Dying cannot be skipped - if that's not for you, don't use it. :)
On the other hand, it is still relatively easy to kill someone once they get into DeathCon (3 failed Death Saving Throws and/or successful hits, in any combination), and yet it still gives the PC's comrades some time to save them. And a Dying PC will most likely (75%) end up dead if left on their own.
ChaiGuy - regarding Diehard, including the auto-Stabilize part is easy. Trying to stay with the spirit of the feat, I'd say that at DeathCon2 and 3 you'd be conscious but Staggered, and could take any Move actions, but taking a Standard action bumps your DeathCon level up by 1 (basically the exact same rules, but +1 DeathCon instead of -1 HP). Problem is, that probably gives you fewer Standard actions in the DeathCon version than in the "-CON is dead" version.
How about instead doing this for diehard? At DeatCon2 and 3 you'd be conscious and Staggered as you proposed. Then somebody with Diehard can take an amount of standard actions equal to his con mod+1 (at least 1) before moving up a DeathCon level. This way the problem you mention isn't as bad, but they'd probably still have less actions than in the "-Con" version.
Though what would happen if you take damage from a normal attack while using Diehard? Go up a DeathCon level?
Corodix - that's a good compromise. It means the player has to keep track of how many Standard actions he's taken, but that's do-able. Thanks!
And yes, even with Diehard another blow would bump you up a DeathCon level, just like taking more damage at negative HP can still kill you even if you have Diehard in the regular system. However, you'd just take the increase to DeathCon, but then auto-Stablize again (no subsequent Death Saving Throw).
A thought added later : if people don't like the "counting actions" idea (too easy for a player to forget to increment the count), maybe on each action you make a CON roll - you only go up a DeathCon level if you fail the roll. While that doesn't *guarantee* a certain number of Standard actions, you might get more if you roll well. Regardless, thanks Corodix, I probably wouldn't have thought of that without your initial suggestion!
Going back to something Vincent mentioned early on - Fast Healing.
Technically, FH only restores HP, like a Cure Wounds spell. So if you hit a creature with FH with a blow that would bring it to negative HP, in this system it goes to DeathCon1 (or probably 2 if was a critical, which we'll ignore from now on), 0 HP, and Dying.
But on its next round, its FH kicks in which brings it up to 1-4 HP (depending on the amount of FH) and Stabilizes it, but leaves it still at DeathCon1.
And if the DM wants, it can have all kinds of penalties for walking around at DeathCon1, as described above.
So you hit it again, and since its HP are pretty low, odds are good that your blow would take it negative, and so it goes to DeathCon2 (because *each* time it would go to negative HP, its DeathCon increases by 1), 0 HP, and Dying. Oh, and it's unconscious.
Its FH kicks in which brings it back to a few HP and conscious (but it probably has to stand up), you hit it hard again, it goes to DeathCon3.
Note : even in RAW, healing brings you back to consciousness and you can act immediately - so that part's no different.
Its FH kicks in which brings it back to a few HP and conscious (but it probably has to stand up), you hit it hard again, it goes to DeathCon4, and now it's FINALLY dead.
Regeneration would work the same to this point, its only difference is when the creature is dead.
So the question is : is this a reasonable way for Fast Healing and Regeneration to work?
The alternative would be for FH and Regen to also lower the DeathCon by 1 (which still wouldn't be something available to the PC's).
Hmm, maybe not - take it to DeathCon1, it pops back to "DeathCon0" (normal). Hit it again, take it to DeathCon1, it pops back to normal. A neverending loop. Drat.
So with DeathCon, it pretty much always takes 3 good blows to kill a creature with FH or Regen once you get it to DeathCon1.
And if you miss on an attack, its HP go up, making it a little harder to for the next blow to take it to the next level of DeathCon.
Actually, now that I think of it, Diehard is sort of the same way, since you auto-Stabilize and remain conscious.
In all 3 cases, you *can't* walk away from the creature once it's down (technically it never "goes down", it just keeps on fighting), you *have* to keep hammering on it.
The difference between them and "regular" creatures is that once they hit DeathCon2, you can walk away from regular creatures for a while if you need to, they're not getting up again on their own.
I just found this in 4e : "a monster that has regeneration regains a specific number of hit points, as long as the monster has at least 1 hit point".
So that would make creatures with FH and Regen no different once they reach DeathCon. Just another option to consider...
I personally kind of like leaving things the way they are, so that you *have* to keep beating on creatures with certain feats or special abilities.
Opinions/ideas/suggestions? Thanks!
I don't think coup de grace is a problem. Its always been possible to die from one before you even get to make a save. And one against a dying creature should kill them, as has always been the case. The save is for when used against someone who is at full HP but asleep or some such.
I'm going to do some math on it later, but I'm trying to think of how to make con matter on the save. Currently I'm thinking of adding CON mod to the save. So a +2 CON could save on an 18 and then maybe make the stall range equal to 2 or 3 times con, so the same character would stall on either a 16 or 14. It still gives you time before you die, but makes the hardier characters still better at surviving.
Concerning diehard, how many huts can a character at 0 normally take before they die? Is it more than 3 or less? I'd say usually less. So I wouldn't worry too much about coming up with more rules for it beyond gain a death con each hit.
If we just say a character with 20 con hits exactly 0. Under death con they could take 3 hits until they die. Under a regular system let's say those 3 hit were 1d8+4. That's 17-18 damage average. So the higher your con the less advantage death con has, but the bigger the hit (usually increases quicker than your con) the more advantage it has.
The standard Coup de Grace reads : in all cases (not just when Dying) the creature gets a Fortitude save, which already incorporates their CON bonus, and changes with level.
Your point for taking damage under Diehard is true, but if you never take another hit, you have the possibility of taking many more actions in RAW than in DeathCon :
Your PC with 20 CON gets hit down to -5 HP. He could take 15 Standard actions under RAW, but only 3 under DeathCon (at +1 DeathCon per Standard action). That's what we're trying to extend.
IF a PC ends up in Dying in RAW, then on average they end up at -CON/2, which gives them CON/2 actions if they never get hit again.
Using Corodix's idea gives PC's fewer than the average if their CON is below 15 and more than the average if their CON is greater than 15, but it's simple and easy.
Or we could just say that everyone gets CON/5 (rounded down) Standard actions before bumping up a DeathCon level, which would be very close to the RAW average.
CON=10-14 : 2 actions per bump, 6 actions total
CON=15-19 : 3 actions per bump, 9 actions total
etc.
I'd have to run a simulation to find out what making a CON roll would do. Hmmm....
You know, I just had a realization - by making the PC's previous DeathCon condition stick around after they've healed but before they've slept, this puts fighter-types and spellcaster-types on more of an even footing!
After a battle in which the fighter-type went to DeathCon2 but came back, in a very real sense he's "used up" some of his fighting ability for the day, just like the spellcaster-type used up some of his daily spellcasting ability during the battle by casting spells.
Both are now going to be "weakened" in some way going into the next battle. Whereas in RAW, the fighter-types can get healed up to full fighting potential several times a day, but the spellcaster-types just keep getting weaker and weaker.
That was a totally unintended side-effect, but I think I really like it!
It's also a good argument to let DeathCon reset completely to "0" after a night's rest (as opposed to just decreasing by 1) - the spellcasters get ALL their ability back after sleeping, so should the fighters.
The standard Coup de Grace reads : in all cases (not just when Dying) the creature gets a Fortitude save, which already incorporates their CON bonus, and changes with level.
My thoughts on coup de grace and adding con are unrelated. I was just pointing out that coup de grace isn't really intended to allow a save if the person is already dying, since it only comes up if they survive. A coup de graced dying character can and should die under either system.
I honestly wasn't thinking about diehard costing a point per action too. I rexommend keeping it simple. If you track it separate, you may as well make it con actions til death. That way its possible to get as many actions as under a normal system, but not more, and maybe less. Just like normal.
Also, if you think hampering a fighter will put them on more equal footing with a wizard, I don't know what game you're talking about.
Ok, so if your comment that you're thinking about "how to make con matter on the save" was referring to the DeathCon save, I think it's important to leave that completely unmodified. If you modify it by CON, you're penalizing the *player* who wants to play a spellcaster-type by making their PC easier to kill. Same if you modify it any other way, including by being in various conditions. Keeping it even across the board is for the players' sake, not for "realism".
If you want to keep Diehard as close to "as is", that would be CON/2 actions before death on average. And if you're counting actions anyway, allowing CON/5 actions before bumping up a DeathCon level emulates that pretty closely (actually it's slightly better than the average), and stays within the DeathCon system (in terms of tracking DeathCon levels once you're healed and such).
Good or bad compared to spellcasters, the realization that staying in DeathCon once healed "uses up" some of a fighter's "resources" can help guide the DM in making choices about how he wants DeathCon to operate. Like suggesting that DeathCon goes back to "0" instead of just decreasing by 1 after 8 hours rest, or that maybe you shouldn't assign any MORE penalties to the PC's actions while healed but in DeathCon > 0. Maybe being able to die easier in the next battle is penalty enough. That sort of thing.
Ok, so if your comment that you're thinking about "how to make con matter on the save" was referring to the DeathCon save, I think it's important to leave that completely unmodified. If you modify it by CON, you're penalizing the *player* who wants to play a spellcaster-type by making their PC easier to kill. Same if you modify it any other way, including by being in various conditions. Keeping it even across the board is for the players' sake, not for "realism".
If you want to keep Diehard as close to "as is", that would be CON/2 actions before death on average. And if you're counting actions anyway, allowing CON/5 actions before bumping up a DeathCon level emulates that pretty closely (actually it's slightly better than the average), and stays within the DeathCon system (in terms of tracking DeathCon levels once you're healed and such).
Maybe it's me, but those two explanations sound contradictory. A part of the stat balance is that high con characters have a better chance of surviving. Having death be at -con and be a con check to stabilize is part of this. If you remove con entirely, you're hurting part of what makes putting points into it appealing. Plus, it just makes sense that a character with more con would be better at it. This is supposed to be a "penalty" on spellcasters. They are easier to kill, that's part of it. So by removing the importance of con, you're actually penalizing the players who under the normal system benefited from their con and giving an unnecessary boon to spellcasters.
On the flip side, the fairest thing to do for players for diehard would be allowing the maximum number of possible actions available under the old system. That would be equal to con. More importantly, it requires less math. That is always good.
I can't help but think this system was devised as an aid to spellcasters specifically.
Good grief, this was NOT intentionally "devised as an aid to spellcasters". Its intention was to emulate Pathfinder's death&dying process as closely as possible, but to ensure that the Dying condition could not be skipped. That's all.
I'm also not trying to say exactly how the system should be run, but point out the choices the DM has in tweaking the system, and the ramifications of them.
Regarding Diehard, one last thought : allowing CON actions (I'm assuming you mean per DeathCon level) would allow the PC to basically act indefinitely during a battle. 10-20 Standard actions before even going to DeathCon2 is going to outlast most battles. That's making Diehard REALLY powerful. But if you want to do that, go for it!
And if you mean CON actions before death, how do you divide them up between the 3 DeathCon levels? You've still got to track them, to know where the PC is if healed. Then you're still doing math!
And if you're doing math anyway, CON/5 most closely matches how Diehard normally works in PF. That's all I'm sayin'.
I've also simulated allowing a CON roll to decide whether or not a Standard action pushes you into the next level of DeathCon - I wouldn't recommend it, at high CON it also allows a basically unlimited number of actions.
There's the ramifications, do what you want.
I've explained why I won't be modifying the Death Saving Throw (and 4e, which this system is based heavily on, also doesn't), but if you have your own reasons for modifying it, go ahead.
I will point out just once more, that in PF there are no penalties for coming back from Dying (-1 to -CON HP). If DM's want to add additional penalties for coming back from DeathCon1, 2, or 3 (which is conceptually no different), that's their choice, but me personally I won't (and neither does 4e).
But, if you want to apply penalties for running around in DeathCon, and maybe only heal one DeathCon level per full night's sleep, because you want to think of DeathCon levels as "injuries", that's a perfectly valid point of view too. Just not what I was originally shooting for.
Basically there's a lot of flexibility in the system that people can tweak the way they want. I just want to be clear on what choices will match the existing system closest, because that was my personal goal.
Actually, leaving DeathCon as-is when healed was a carryover from 4e which I left in just because I thought it would add a little "flavor". So to truly match PF as much as possible (or if you think this system favors spellcasters too much), then when a PC gets any healing, also reset their DeathCon to "0" (normal), because in PF there's no "memory" of how many times you've been in Dying. Now it's really as close to PF as possible, just without any chance of skipping Dying.
Decapitation or anything that utterly destroys a PC's body (acid etc) would be the biggest issue here.
I dont see the point in all of this much, if you do not want players to die just dont let them die at -con, maybe have them get 1 con damage per round being knocked under negative con instead.
It still penalizes them significantly, you almost change nothing mechanically but instant death kill will not happen in normal circumstances.
Decapitation is basically Coup de Grace, that's been defined. One shot, you're dead either way. Well, ok, that's if you're unconscious from being in DeathCon2 or 3. If you started out with some HP (say you're tied up and Helpless) AND the amount of damage would put you negative, even if you make the Fortitude saving throw you'd still be at +2 extra DeathCon (from the "automatic critical" part). At best that's unconscious (DeathCon2) and would need a second Coup de Grace (which *would* be fatal), and if you were already at DeathCon2 or 3 from battles earlier that day, you'd be dead anyway.
I would imagine falling in a vat of acid would basically be Massive Damage, that's been defined. If you fail that save, you go up by +2 DeathCon. So first thing in the day (when your DeathCon is "0"), that'd take 1 more round (failed save, so +2 to DeathCon) or 2 more rounds (successful saves, but still does damage, so +1 to DeathCon) to kill you.
One other thing : Barbarians
As written, PF makes going to Dying while raged very dangerous for Barbarians, with a high chance of becoming dead when their extra HP vanish because they went unconscious and stopped raging.
If you want to play it like that, I'd suggest that when a raging Barbarian leaves DeathCon1 (from taking damage, or from a failed Death Saving Throw), instead of going to DeathCon2 as usual, they go to DeathCon3. This leaves them "at death's door", so to speak.
The Raging Vitality feat would negate this, and they would then only go to DeathCon2.
Ok, to summarize everything (and thanks to Vincent Takeda, Kaisoku, Davick, and Corodix for their suggestions, which have been incorporated).
Note one important difference from the original post, you make your Death Saving Throw at the END of your round (so creatures in DeathCon1 can act first).
The main point of this system is : you cannot skip the Dying condition. This allows the DM to do as much ordinary damage as he likes without worry, and allows PC's to stay in battle down to close to 0 HP without fear of suddenly being dead – instead, the closer they get to 0 HP, the better the odds the next attack can take them into Dying. Once in DeathCon, the player knows exactly how close he is to dying, and gives his comrades some time to do something about it, but still hopefully leaves enough of a chance of death to make it exciting.
However, it is still relatively easy to kill someone once they get into DeathCon (3 failed Death Saving Throws and/or successful hits, in any combination), and a Dying PC will most likely (75%) end up dead if left on their own.
The DM still has many options as to how deadly he wants to be – once a PC drops into DeathCon2 (unconscious), the opponent could move on to someone else, or go for a Coup de Grace. And it’s still also possible to kill a PC in just one round from iterative attacks or from being surrounded by opponents.
It is closely based on D&D 4e's way of handling death&dying, but with a couple of small-but-important differences.
It closely mimics the way Pathfinder handles death&dying, but not exactly. Options to make it even more like Pathfinder are discussed afterwards.
Items in italics are options for the DM to decide how he wants to run things.
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When a character first drops to 0 or negative HP for the day, he is at DeathCon1*, and Dying. Negative HP is not tracked; Dying characters stay at 0 HP (any additional damage taken has no effect on HP, you stay at 0 HP).
DeathCon1 : you are Dying but conscious
......This allows the PC to make a choice – continue fighting, or seek healing
......Add any limitations you think appropriate (if any), like “all rolls and AC are at –2”, or “you can only take a Move or Standard action”, etc. These only apply while your HP=0.
DeathCon2 : you are Dying and unconscious
DeathCon3 : you are Dying and unconscious
DeathCon4 : you are dead, Jim
You continue to make any allowed saving throws to end various effects thru DeathCon3.
Dying and Stabilizing
When you are Dying, you make an unmodified d20 Death Saving Throw at the end of your round.
......1-9 : your DeathCon increases by 1.
......10-19 : your DeathCon does not change.
......20 : your DeathCon does not change, and you automatically Stabilize.
When Stable, you no longer make Death Saving Throws, and stay at your current DeathCon and 0 HP.
......A teammate can also Stabilize you as normal with a DC=15 Heal skill check.
I personally would leave the Death Saving Throw roll unmodified, so that the chances of PC death are even across the board for the players' sake (as opposed to adding modifiers for “realism”). But if you want to add any modifiers, or even feats that add modifiers, feel free.
Healing and Damage
While your HP=0, further damage increases your DeathCon by 1*, and makes you Dying if you were Stable.
Any amount of healing restores you to that many HP (since you've been staying at 0 HP), and automatically Stabilizes you.
However, your DeathCon value does not change until you get 8 hours rest, at which point it either (goes back to 0) or (decreases by 1).
Optional : while HP > 0, apply any penalties for running around while in DeathCon, like : all rolls are at –2*DeathCon, and casters have a spell failure of 10%*DeathCon (adjust values as you see fit).
......Note that this does NOT emulate how PF does death&dying, as there are no penalties for coming back from Dying in PF.
If you take damage down to ≤ 0 HP again, your current DeathCon increases by 1*, and you are Dying.
If you allow Massive Damage, it adds +2 to your DeathCon and takes you to Dying if the save is failed.
* : A critical increases your current DeathCon by (the multiplier of the critical) or (+2).
Miscellaneous
Fast Healing or Regeneration : restores the indicated HP each round, but does not change DeathCon.
Diehard : you always auto-Stabilize, and at DeathCon2 or 3 you remain conscious but Staggered; you can take CON/5 (rounded down) Standard or “strenuous” actions before your DeathCon increases by 1.
Orc Ferocity : once/day, you do not have to roll a Death Saving Throw on your first round in DeathCon.
Coup de Grace : treat as normal, except that if you succeed on the saving throw you still increase DeathCon by +2 for the auto-critical.
When a raging Barbarian leaves DeathCon1, they go to DeathCon3. The Raging Vitality feat negates this.
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If a PC in DeathCon1 is left alone, they have a 75% chance of dying in typically 3-9 rounds (average of 6), and a 25% chance of Stabilizing on their own in an average of 4 rounds (evenly distributed across DeathCon 1,2,3). A PC in DeathCon1 can act 2 rounds on average before losing consciousness.
Once most creatures hit DeathCon2, you can walk away from them for a while if you need to, they're not getting up again on their own (unless their side has a Cleric). But you can't walk away from creatures with Diehard, Fast Healing, or Regeneration – you have to keep hitting them until they’re dead.
It’s important that there be no magic that reduces DeathCon levels, otherwise every party will have a caster/potion/wand/whatever that can, and it ceases to be important. Same for Feats – nothing can reduce it.
To emulate PF completely, reset DeathCon to 0 upon getting any healing (because PF has no "memory" of how many times you enter the Dying condition each day), and go unconscious at DeathCon1 which happens when HP go negative. Then treat 0 HP as per PF's rules.
If you want to think of DeathCon levels as “injuries”, then apply penalties for running around in DeathCon (HP > 0), and maybe only heal one DeathCon level per full night's sleep.
Example : on the first battle of the day, Franco the fighter eventually takes at hit that would put him at -25 HP, so he enters DeathCon1 and 0 HP. When his next turn comes, Franco decides to continue fighting and rolls his attacks. But the DM has decided that any PC in DeathCon1 (and with HP=0) is at -2 to all rolls and AC, so he includes those penalties. At the end of his turn, Franco rolls a d20 for his Death Saving Throw and gets a 12, so he stays in DeathCon1. A friend of Franco’s takes his turn to run over to Franco and makes a Heal check to Stabilize him, which succeeds. Now if Franco takes no more hits, he would stay at DeathCon1 indefinitely without making any more Death Saving Throws. But during the next round, he takes 2 more hits, ignoring the actual damage done and instead progressing to DeathCon2 (and collapses, unconscious) and then DeathCon3. Just BTW, if one of those two hits had been a critical, he’d be dead at this point. But now the party’s Cleric casts a powerful Channel Energy for 30 HP, restoring Franco to 30 HP and bringing him back to consciousness. He and his party manage to kill the rest of the monsters before he would go negative again, so he remains at DeathCon3 for the rest of the day, until he can sleep 8 hours.
An interesting idea. I'm not sure I'd use it completely unmodified, but I'll probably borrow it, especially because I was looking for a homebrew alternative to the "Hard to Kill" ability in Mythic Adventures rules that's not so definitive. With this, there is still the threat of death, if left unchecked, which the mythic rule doesn't really have, but it still makes it so realistically, you'll be hard to kill.
One more thing I realized much later - let's compare this to RAW if you're left completely alone once you enter Dying...
If you manage to take a hit that takes you to -2 HP, you're unconscious and Dying. Let's say you have a CON of 12. So you have 10 rounds until you're dead, but each round you make a DC 10 CON check to auto-stabilize. Well, this round it's DC 12 because you're at -2, and your CON bonus is +1, so you have a 50% chance of stabilizing THIS ROUND (which just gets higher if you have a high-CON character). In such a case, on average you have a 97% chance of stabilizing before you would die! Sure that gets worse the closer that last hit takes you to -CON, but overall you have a pretty good chance of stabilizing. The same character starting at -6 HP (halfway to dead) still has a 70% chance of stabilizing.
On the other hand, once you enter DeathCon1, you have a 75% chance of death, within an average of just 6 rounds, and in as little as 3 rounds if you roll badly.
So entering Dying in the DeathCon system is actually much more likely to be deadly than if you enter Dying in RAW.