I was looking at the D&D next basic rules and noticed the following things about stat generation: elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) has been added as a standard for new characters right along side rolling 4d6drop, and the optional point buy system is now far more balanced.
And by balanced I mean you get 27 points with all stats starting at 8 like the old D&D PB, but 14 and 15 cost 2 points each AND you can't buy a stat higher than 15 before racials. That last bit is very new to me. And I am curious how people might react about it. The more I think about it the more I like it... It may do more to equalize SAD vs MAD than anything I have seen done before.
IS this the future of Point Buy? Is that good?
When I first read about the 27 point buy, my reaction was, "Oh wow, that's epic!" That's when I read it more closely and realized 5E has pre-dumped each stat by 2 points.
27 - (6×2) = 15 point buy
Now maybe it's just me, but I'd think that allowing PCs rolled with 4d6 drop lowest alongside PCs generated with a 15-point Pf/27-point 5E buy is going to be unbalanced. Heck, just for the experience of rolling, I allowed the newbie in my Pf group to roll 4d6 drop lowest whereas everyone else used a 25-point Pf buy. Given that none of my players are optimizers, the newbie's saves and general toughness are quite noticeably better simply due to base stats.
Thankfully, all of my players are cool with this approach for first time players, but I doubt the same could be said of every group — particularly given an even larger stat disparity. IMO, the greatest use of allowing free choice between rolled vs. point-buy vs. array is as a safeguard against one player rolling sub-par. "Ouch, that's what you rolled? Go ahead and use point-buy or take the array, it's cool."
I don't know Laithoron maybe you've had MUCH luckier players than I have seen typically with 4d6drop. But even I must admit a 16 on a set of 4d6drop scores is fairly common. It is often balanced by a spread of lackluster or low scores. But I have also seen players who couldn't manage better than a 14 as their highest rolled score. That unpredictability is both an asset and major drawback to rolling; making it really really hard to set an equivalent PB level for it. BUT most accurately the average stat IS 12.24 for 4d6drop... making a 15PB not far from the mark (most of the time). And that "most of the time" is the tricky part.
BUT debates have raged for more years than I have probably been gaming over rolled stat inequality.
I was more curious about how people liked this version of Point Buy? Is buying higher stats than 15 a deal breaker?
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There are a list of things at play here that make 5E PT buy diferent than 3E/PF. First there is a 20 stat cap so having a ceiling on point buy makes sense. Also, there is alot of stat boosts built into leveling because WBL is no longer an expectation of progression. So not maxing a stat out the gun is ok and you wont have to worry about buying gear to boost the stat. Second, 5e makes everyone MAD to a degree with abiity checks and saves so dumping is going to be a lot less atractve. Overall I find this to be the most attractive feature of 5E.
At this point I cant say if its the future of PT buy even though my initial guess is its very good. I still need to put it on the table before I make further judgement. I can say this is the first time in years I've been interested in rolling stats, and it feels good.
@laithoron I agree about PT buy alongside rolling being unbalanced. I would never allow a mix its one or the other. Maybe 5E provides a balance that will change my preference; who knows?
Maybe there should be a Pathfinder version of this? Maybe cap PF point buy at a 16?
I was about to have some negative things to say, but with a 20 cap and point buildup built into the system it is not so bad. I am also thinking stats wont be as powerful, and other things factor into power. Now if you can roll and bypass the 15 point buy, then I will ignore the cap, and allow for more points if I ever run it. I might but a max on how far you can buy down your stats if I find it to be a problem in 5E.
I might put a max on how far you can buy down your stats if I find it to be a problem in 5E.
The stat-dumping method we're used to in Pathfinder hasn't been carried over to 5E per se, so I'm not sure I'd call it that anymore.
Instead of each stat starting at 10 then and adding/subtracting from there, all stats start at 8 and you can only add points. Hence the consensus that 5E's 27-points equates to Pf's 15-points. In otherwords, there is no longer the possibility of "buying down" from 8 to 7 to gain 2 extra points.
Now if you can roll and bypass the 15 point buy, then I will ignore the cap, and allow for more points if I ever run it.
This is the probable solution to the same concern I raised earlier too. I'll certainly be interested to see how capping PCs' stat-maximums at 20 works out — quite the change from some of the Pathfinder & 3.x characters I've grown to love. I'd imagine it will at least make adventures easier to balance.
If given the choice between 4d6 Drop Low vs. that Point Buy, I'd pretty much have to go with the 4D6 every time.
4d6 drop the low, you're basically assured to have one 16+ stat for the single stat characters, and your "average" is going to be pretty close to that 27.
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Maybe there should be a Pathfinder version of this? Maybe cap PF point buy at a 16?
PF operates under completely different assumptions than 5E. I dont think its a good idea to swap generation rules between them. If you must, keep in mind you wont be able to port over methods without having system based problems.