(DMing) What do you do when you stop caring?


Advice

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Liberty's Edge

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Anguish wrote:

I think you've got your answer, as unpleasant as it is. If they are stonewalling regarding what they don't like, it's probably beyond salvaging. Kind of like asking me "what about this rap song you don't like? Is it the lyrics or the instruments or the tempo or the topic or the name or the rapper's voice?" and getting the answer "uh, why don't you write a song that's rock and roll?"

If they refuse to give feedback, it's because they really don't like it. That doesn't mean it's bad. Just don't try feeding lobster to people who don't like seafood.

I'm actually going to be seeking suggestions here on the Paizo boards and, hopefully, Giants in the Playground, if only in a "Let's smooth things out and make sure everything works" way. I'll maybe occasionally ask the group about advice maybe on things, like "Hey what can I do to improve this mechanical aspect of the setting (Race, weapons, etc)?" and perhaps keep the setting on the table as a playable thing, but off to the side as like "Here's the ideas I had for campaigns I could run *Offers like 5-7 ideas*. Failing any of these I could also run something in the homebrew world or a module."

Anguish wrote:
But again - and honest, I'm trying to be helpful here - I strongly expect you should try to focus your creative energy on plot, not setting. I'm working with very little info here, but I get the impression your players take issue with your world, not your story-writing skills. That's why I suggested running modules in Golarion, where they can use reams of Paizo's setting canon and you play with the story. Hence compromise.

One thing I am going to do is ask the party straight up what they'd want to play, be it something of the "Kick down the door and murder everything" variety or something more plot heavy. No point in stressing just yet over a plot if they just wanna get their murderhobo on.

And I'd really like to know for myself if they take issue with the setting of my story-writing skills. First campaign I ran for them was fairly plot-heavy but they rebelled at pretty much every opportunity. Granted it was only my second campaign ever, the party was under the impression I was more experienced and put me through the wringer (the the point where I was burned out of running anything for months after), and that the campaign was designed for good/neutral characters and half turned out to be some variety of "IDGAF" evil.

Anguish wrote:
Again, not trying to defecate on your parade, just trying to help with perspective that may or may not be shared by your players.

And I appreciate the advice =D The only people around here that I can ask about this sort of thing is either my group (Haha no) or people on the internet (Who honestly have given me far better advice).

The Epic Dungeon Master wrote:
You have to look for every opportunity with homebrews to get the players involved if that's what you want. There are constantly opportunities popping up and you have to learn how to see them. When a player says, "I worked for a noble as a squire where I learned the basics of horse mounted combat." Your immediate response should be, "Who was the noble? Describe him." And write it down. The players will see that you're serious once you start noting what they say. Don't just ask and listen, and ask and dictate. Write it up in a Google Doc and send it to them to show you are listening.

*Chuckles* I had asked a question similar to this back when I ran my first game for this group and the general consensus of responses was "Get the group to more or less do some of the work for you".

PC: "How big is the Queen's army?"
DM: "Roll [stat]."
PC: *Gets sufficiently high enough*
PC: "So how big is it?"
DM: "You tell me, you succeeded on the roll."

Only downside is that I'd need to keep an eye out on input that could easily cause problems for me as a DM.

The Epic Dungeon Master wrote:
The Gear Wastes Players' Guide would flip my s#$@ if I saw that sent to me from my GM. It would show your dedication and you could really have some enticing things in it.

I'll try to get something like that typed up when I can get something like Microsoft Word on my laptop for formatting purposes (Using the Mac equivalent of Notepad for all my text stuff currently). At the very least it'll make it so I have all the information down for myself and future groups, and have it in a way that I can print it out and hand it out to the players.


Silus wrote:
I'll try to get something like that typed up when I can get something like Microsoft Word on my laptop for formatting purposes (Using the Mac equivalent of Notepad for all my text stuff currently). At the very least it'll make it so I have all the information down for myself and future groups, and have it in a way that I can print it out and hand it out to the players.

Might I suggest Google Docs? It's free and can be accessed anywhere as long as you know your google account.


The Epic Dungeon Master wrote:
Silus wrote:
I'll try to get something like that typed up when I can get something like Microsoft Word on my laptop for formatting purposes (Using the Mac equivalent of Notepad for all my text stuff currently). At the very least it'll make it so I have all the information down for myself and future groups, and have it in a way that I can print it out and hand it out to the players.
Might I suggest Google Docs? It's free and can be accessed anywhere as long as you know your google account.

Google Docs is great if you have a reliable internet provider, and helps with the spreading of ideas to the general public.

However, if you're in areas where you don't have internet access (or if your internet provider is shaky, like mine has been), it's important you find some way to work on it offline, something which Microsoft Word allows you to do.

I've wrote a Fighter-class guide (you can find it here) using both Microsoft Word and Google Docs; both are great programs (I find you can do more with Google Docs, though requiring internet to use it becomes a problem for somebody like me), but don't mesh too well. I typed up a lot of content that I had to redress because the systems they use are similar, but have differences that make long-term changes difficult to transfer, especially for a traditional Pathfinder Forum Guide. Transferring it from Google Docs to Microsoft Word isn't an issue. Going vice-versa, on the other hand...unless you started in Microsoft Word, transferring it will cause problems. Not to mention, I've had some formatting problems with Google Docs in the past; I learned how to fix them, but I had to research the problem to take care of it, so it's not as user-friendly.

In other words, you should pick one and you stick with it. Google Docs works better as a means to distribute it on the internet, the Microsoft Word guarantees less bugs/issues, and allows working time even when you're offline.

Liberty's Edge

The Epic Dungeon Master wrote:
Silus wrote:
I'll try to get something like that typed up when I can get something like Microsoft Word on my laptop for formatting purposes (Using the Mac equivalent of Notepad for all my text stuff currently). At the very least it'll make it so I have all the information down for myself and future groups, and have it in a way that I can print it out and hand it out to the players.
Might I suggest Google Docs? It's free and can be accessed anywhere as long as you know your google account.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The Epic Dungeon Master wrote:
Silus wrote:
I'll try to get something like that typed up when I can get something like Microsoft Word on my laptop for formatting purposes (Using the Mac equivalent of Notepad for all my text stuff currently). At the very least it'll make it so I have all the information down for myself and future groups, and have it in a way that I can print it out and hand it out to the players.
Might I suggest Google Docs? It's free and can be accessed anywhere as long as you know your google account.

Google Docs is great if you have a reliable internet provider, and helps with the spreading of ideas to the general public.

However, if you're in areas where you don't have internet access (or if your internet provider is shaky, like mine has been), it's important you find some way to work on it offline, something which Microsoft Word allows you to do.

I've wrote a Fighter-class guide (you can find it here) using both Microsoft Word and Google Docs; both are great programs (I find you can do more with Google Docs, though requiring internet to use it becomes a problem for somebody like me), but don't mesh too well. I typed up a lot of content that I had to redress because the systems they use are similar, but have differences that make long-term changes difficult to transfer, especially for a traditional Pathfinder Forum Guide. Transferring it from Google Docs to Microsoft Word isn't an issue. Going vice-versa, on the other hand...unless you started in Microsoft Word, transferring it will cause problems. Not to mention, I've had some formatting problems with Google Docs in the past; I learned how to fix them, but I had to research the problem to take care of it, so it's not as user-friendly.

In other words, you should pick one and you stick with it. Google Docs works better as a means to distribute it on the internet, the Microsoft Word guarantees less...

Offhand, do you know if it's possible to add pictures to Google Docs? I figure if I'm going to type up a Player's Guide then some pictures might be helpful (Maps, some of the major figures in the world, etc.)

Dark Archive

It is really hard to DM if you stop caring, so if you are successful with it I would like to hear how you did it.

I had a group similar to this once, I used it as a Guinea pig group of sorts to test out new rules- Hero Points, Performance Combat, ect... Or some homebrew rules. It was not very fulfilling as a gaming experience, but it did serve a purpose.

Dark Archive

Guilty of skipping most of the thread.

Your first post gives me the belief there is no way in any of the 9 hells you could.ever finish CotCT, or the.length of any AP for that matter.

If you still decide to run a."normal" pre published adventure. Please reconsider doing one of the much shorter adventures. Both Dragons Demand and Thornkeep (and many the 32 page modules are on a deep discount for PDFs right now and the next 3 weeks). They are somewhat big but no where close to the size of an AP. If you want to try to grin and bear it, take a chunk you have a Chance to actually chew and swallow the.whole thing rather than ruin an AP by spoiling the begining and then never finishing it

If you need more time to decide, tell your group you might need it. Don't keep them in the dark and just tell them you quite after the final fight of the current campaign. Let them know if one of them wants to go sooner than later with their GM turn, they could help the group by getting ready sooner then later.

Maybe you could spin them into your homebrew if you mentionit is a chance to play something like an Eberron warforged or Artificer.


Sounds like your players are horribly similar to my last group... Much less of a "Hey lets play together and be murderhobos and enjoy the story along the way" and much more of a "We're going to wreck every plan the GM has ever made for the game, and see if we can send them to the asylum by picking apart things that are unimportant at the time and just fight with the GM on what the gods or races or classes would or wouldn't do!". Our last group did this all the time, for example. My GF's first time GMing ever, everyone got put to sleep by the gods, there was immediate "elves don't sleep!" and "My god wouldn't allow this!". Follow up later after the dream-test mini dungeon with an amazonian half-orc Samurai who used a Naginata, and they started going on about how "All samurai use Katanas exclusively!". Oh, and let's not forget "There are no outskirts to Absalom! It covers the entire island!"

This may just be my jadedness talking, but if you find that in your talks your gaming desires no longer mesh with your group's, it may be time to move on. It was hardest thing my GF and I've had to do, considering how much we love TTRPGs, but we finally just said screw it. Doesn't help that the group was composed of, quite literally, the rejects that couldn't get into any of the other gaming groups at the LGS.

Might I suggest, if you really can't DM for them, attempt a play-by-post? Seems that a few folks here found the Gear Wastes interesting, I know I did.

Beyond that... Do what you plan on doin'. Talk to your group and find out what the frag they want. DM it if you can, but if it's not something you're enthused about, mention it and pass the mantle on again.

That said.. It just dawned on me. Sounds more like your group wants to be IDGAF-Evil Murderhobos, but hide it under the pretense of a "normal" kind of story based game... Which they might just wreck for the heck of it. The last group I attempted (not the long-running one I mentioned earlier) had two players actually admit to enjoy wrecking campaigns and flustering the GM.

That said... If you wind up doing it with PBP, lemme know. I'd love to get in on it.

Liberty's Edge

Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Sounds like your players are horribly similar to my last group... Much less of a "Hey lets play together and be murderhobos and enjoy the story along the way" and much more of a "We're going to wreck every plan the GM has ever made for the game, and see if we can send them to the asylum by picking apart things that are unimportant at the time and just fight with the GM on what the gods or races or classes would or wouldn't do!". Our last group did this all the time, for example. My GF's first time GMing ever, everyone got put to sleep by the gods, there was immediate "elves don't sleep!" and "My god wouldn't allow this!". Follow up later after the dream-test mini dungeon with an amazonian half-orc Samurai who used a Naginata, and they started going on about how "All samurai use Katanas exclusively!". Oh, and let's not forget "There are no outskirts to Absalom! It covers the entire island!"

This may just be my jadedness talking, but if you find that in your talks your gaming desires no longer mesh with your group's, it may be time to move on. It was hardest thing my GF and I've had to do, considering how much we love TTRPGs, but we finally just said screw it. Doesn't help that the group was composed of, quite literally, the rejects that couldn't get into any of the other gaming groups at the LGS.

Might I suggest, if you really can't DM for them, attempt a play-by-post? Seems that a few folks here found the Gear Wastes interesting, I know I did.

Beyond that... Do what you plan on doin'. Talk to your group and find out what the frag they want. DM it if you can, but if it's not something you're enthused about, mention it and pass the mantle on again.

That said.. It just dawned on me. Sounds more like your group wants to be IDGAF-Evil Murderhobos, but hide it under the pretense of a "normal" kind of story based game... Which they might just wreck for the heck of it. The last group I attempted (not the long-running one I mentioned earlier) had two players actually admit to enjoy wrecking campaigns...

I've actually never attempted a proper TTRPG PbP, though I did start my whole RPing...thing with a Harry Potter PbP. Not really sure how much different it'd be honestly.

But, well, for now I think I'm just going to work on getting a Google Doc writeup made up for the world so I can pass it out not only to my players but to those that want to either use it or assist in its creation.

Edit: Also have a thread here on the Paizo forums, generally just me looking for feedback and stuff.


Neurophage wrote:
Demontroll, have you considered the possibility that you're letting your prejudice affect your judgment? That your dislike of steam tech and guns in fantasy worlds is causing you to see anything that uses them as automatically without merit?

Well, I don't want to play a 'My Little Pony RPG' because I don't like the setting. Now maybe a really good GM could make it interesting playing cute ponies for a week or two, but I don't see it holding my interest. So yeah, I am biased, I don't like guns in a fantasy setting (they are fine in any other appropriate setting), and I don't like Steampunk, and I don't want to play the Twilight version of Vampire the Masquerade.


demontroll wrote:
I don't want to play the Twilight version of Vampire the Masquerade.
What about
A Terrible Author wrote:
Edward's perfect body[?]"


Silus wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Sounds like your players are horribly similar to my last group... Much less of a "Hey lets play together and be murderhobos and enjoy the story along the way" and much more of a "We're going to wreck every plan the GM has ever made for the game, and see if we can send them to the asylum by picking apart things that are unimportant at the time and just fight with the GM on what the gods or races or classes would or wouldn't do!". Our last group did this all the time, for example. My GF's first time GMing ever, everyone got put to sleep by the gods, there was immediate "elves don't sleep!" and "My god wouldn't allow this!". Follow up later after the dream-test mini dungeon with an amazonian half-orc Samurai who used a Naginata, and they started going on about how "All samurai use Katanas exclusively!". Oh, and let's not forget "There are no outskirts to Absalom! It covers the entire island!"

This may just be my jadedness talking, but if you find that in your talks your gaming desires no longer mesh with your group's, it may be time to move on. It was hardest thing my GF and I've had to do, considering how much we love TTRPGs, but we finally just said screw it. Doesn't help that the group was composed of, quite literally, the rejects that couldn't get into any of the other gaming groups at the LGS.

Might I suggest, if you really can't DM for them, attempt a play-by-post? Seems that a few folks here found the Gear Wastes interesting, I know I did.

Beyond that... Do what you plan on doin'. Talk to your group and find out what the frag they want. DM it if you can, but if it's not something you're enthused about, mention it and pass the mantle on again.

That said.. It just dawned on me. Sounds more like your group wants to be IDGAF-Evil Murderhobos, but hide it under the pretense of a "normal" kind of story based game... Which they might just wreck for the heck of it. The last group I attempted (not the long-running one I mentioned earlier) had two players actually

...

roll20.net allows you to play online, and since you can get players from almost anywhere it is much easier to play or get a group.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
demontroll wrote:
I don't want to play the Twilight version of Vampire the Masquerade.
What about
A Terrible Author wrote:
Edward's perfect body[?]"

What is 'Edward's Perfect Body'?

Oh, and if there was a gaming group of cute girls who wanted me to play the 'Twilight version of Vampire the Masquerade' with them, I would be making a character. But it is far from my first choice of what to play.

There may come a time and place to play your tweaked out home brew campaign world, and your friends should at least humor you enough to play a few sessions of it, if there is no other game going on. I've played in such a game and it wasn't that bad. The GM ran out of material after 2 sessions, because they spent their time on the setting rather than the story. I'd tell you all about it, but the GM made me sign a NDA so no one could steal his ideas.


demontroll wrote:
Neurophage wrote:
Demontroll, have you considered the possibility that you're letting your prejudice affect your judgment? That your dislike of steam tech and guns in fantasy worlds is causing you to see anything that uses them as automatically without merit?
Well, I don't want to play a 'My Little Pony RPG' because I don't like the setting. Now maybe a really good GM could make it interesting playing cute ponies for a week or two, but I don't see it holding my interest. So yeah, I am biased, I don't like guns in a fantasy setting (they are fine in any other appropriate setting), and I don't like Steampunk, and I don't want to play the Twilight version of Vampire the Masquerade.

That's nice, but that's also not what I asked. You outright admitted that you're biased earlier, but there's a difference between having a bias and letting it get in the way of being a fair critic. Which is not to say that I'm calling you an unfair critic. I'm saying that it's possible that you saw that it was a fantasy setting with guns and immediately decided that, regardless of context, the setting was automatically bad. Given that there's a difference between not liking something and thinking that it's bad, this could not be called a fair criticism.


I don't have a high appreciation for many of those things as they are usually done in most fantasy settings I've seen.

Guns in fantasty. This is trying to mix tech and fantasy, which can be good. If you have the tech be somewhere in the realm of reality, I would love to be a part of it. But when you say these guns are early mid firearms, non-magical, yet can be fired once per second... Ok, you just completely destroyed immersion for me. I know perfectly well you can't fire a breech loading single shot firearm with cartridges that fast. But you can do it with a muzzle loader?!? Just no.
If the rules/setting sticks with what is actually in the realm of possible for an early firearm, I got no problems.

Steampunk. Almost the exact same thing. This is trying to mix tech and fantasy, which can be good. If you have the tech be somewhere in the realm of reality, I would love to be a part of it. But middle age level tech (again with no magic) having a cane fire a spike through 2 people with compressed air? Armored hot air balloons with multiple cannons? Not gonna happen. That's why they didn't make those back then. It wasn't actually possible.
Now if you combine it with magic. Say using magic to make the cylinder strong enough to hold the compressed air along with an air elemental to compress the air. Ok, then it at least makes some sort of sense. That is why I really liked the old FR version of the artificer. It was combining magic and engineering to see what could be done with just a little bit of magic to assist the engineering. That is great.

I don't like those. However, I do recognize that there are a large number of people that do like them. They will continue to be popular with many for a long time.
But you need to find the group to align with the setting. You will never get someone like me to really enjoy playing in one of those games. (Though I would probably give it a go for a short while to help a friend develop his setting. But I wouldn't want to slog through it long term.)

Rabbit Warren, Bird Explorers (may have that name wrong), and there was something with people pretending to be cats. For something to do with my kids when they are little, ok sure. But there were tables full of adults for those games such that the kids couldn't get in to play. I don't get the interest.


@ Silus: Yes, both Google Docs and Microsoft Word allow pictures to be uploaded and placed. They have several options related to them. However, Google Docs is more user-friendly than Microsoft Word in that regard, so that aspect I would upload to Google Docs first, then transfer it to Microsoft Word for an offline version.


Anguish wrote:

That's fine and true but completely out of context. This isn't a case of one guy with a vision that if only his employees do what he says, he can make a working aircraft. This isn't a case of "you're the football player, I'm the coach, run the runs and we'll win."

This is a case of "we are all part of a musical group together, so... trust me, let's play some jazz." Only the rest of the group doesn't want to play jazz. No amount of "just trust me" is going to change that non-jazz aficionados shouldn't be part of this band.

D&D is a cooperative game. As in, the game being played should be a cooperative effort and when four of five participants don't want X, "stick to your guns" is poor advice.

Not at all. If you've got a setting just itching to get out of you then make it. It doesn't matter who you play it for. If nothing else, publish it online via PDF and see how it does. You never know. I don't know about you but I had zero input into the Golarion setting, but I like it all the same.

Plus, honestly, a group not wanting to try a one-off due to some stuck up notion of 'PF official only' is a s@&%ty group.


I've seen the OP asking for campaign world building advice. Which, to be honest, I have never really understood. Not just from you but anyone.

What it sounds like you are doing is trying to create a fully fleshed out completely complete campaign setting to introduce your players to. My opinion is that will likely not work.

"Why won't that work Ubercroz?"

Well that's a good question, thanks for asking. It won't work because the players will not know all the information that you know and will be scared to help 'create' in your world because they cannot possibly know all of the rules.

The more information you put together the more restricted the players will feel. They won't know what kinds of characters are okay to make within the confines of the world and will feel stymied.

"But I will give them the information in a player handout!"

Yeah, I know you will. But if this ends up being a 75 page document then the players are going to feel overwhelmed. They won't read it, because they aren't as invested as you are.

"Then what can I do to get them involved?"

Well I say scrap 75% of what you have. Take a few key concepts that really help define the world, the country, the setting.

Write out on ONE PAGE the information your players need to know to make the game work. Make it clear that they get to help make the rest of the world. Then tell them the only stuff in the game that is "canon" is what has happened in the game. Everything else is up for change.

I have done so much stupid work on homebrew campaign settings, but they typically fall on deaf ears because people don't care as much as you do. Once people know that they are making it with you they buy in.

Then, run a short campaign. Then let someone else run a campaign for you in your world. THAT is fun.

It's like improv, when someone asks a question have an answer. If someone asks to do something say "Yes, and..."

Liberty's Edge

So I have an idea for a homebrew (non-published) campaign that takes place on Golarian.

After getting ahold of a copy of the Inner Sea World Guide, I remembered an idea I had a while back for a game. Basically the PCs would be hired to start a counter-counter-counter-revolution in Galt with all the evilness and murderhobotry you'd expect.


Silus wrote:

So I have an idea for a homebrew (non-published) campaign that takes place on Golarian.

After getting ahold of a copy of the Inner Sea World Guide, I remembered an idea I had a while back for a game. Basically the PCs would be hired to start a counter-counter-counter-revolution in Galt with all the evilness and murderhobotry you'd expect.

That sounds like a cool idea for a game. I imagine your players would be down for it.

I don't want to discourage you from running a totally homebrew campaign setting. I do, and I really like it. I'm just recommending what finally worked for me. It took the players about 6 months of playing in the game before they really understood that they got to make meaningful decisions in the game.

We have now been doing it for about 3 years and I have now had 2 other people in our group GM a game in this setting. They pick a chunk of the world we haven't played in and then they kind of flesh it out and come up with a theme and it all works.

It is really neat to see the world take on a life of it's own, but I had to let go of the control before my players cared about it.


Silus wrote:

So I have an idea for a homebrew (non-published) campaign that takes place on Golarian.

After getting ahold of a copy of the Inner Sea World Guide, I remembered an idea I had a while back for a game. Basically the PCs would be hired to start a counter-counter-counter-revolution in Galt with all the evilness and murderhobotry you'd expect.

Just to keep a toe in this swimming pool, the bolded bit sounds (particularly) interesting (to me). I happen to like intrigue and the like. So while your original game proposal doesn't catch my eye (like a pretty woman that isn't my 'type'), this kind of does. I mention this so you can see that it's not YOU.


demontroll wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
demontroll wrote:
I don't want to play the Twilight version of Vampire the Masquerade.
What about
A Terrible Author wrote:
Edward's perfect body[?]"

What is 'Edward's Perfect Body'?

Oh, and if there was a gaming group of cute girls who wanted me to play the 'Twilight version of Vampire the Masquerade' with them, I would be making a character. But it is far from my first choice of what to play.

There may come a time and place to play your tweaked out home brew campaign world, and your friends should at least humor you enough to play a few sessions of it, if there is no other game going on. I've played in such a game and it wasn't that bad. The GM ran out of material after 2 sessions, because they spent their time on the setting rather than the story. I'd tell you all about it, but the GM made me sign a NDA so no one could steal his ideas.

In the novel "Twilight" and its sequels "Edward's perfect body" is a clause that is repeated over and over, and over and over and over, and over, and over and over and over, and over.

All you have to do to make critics of the novels chuckle is simply say, "Edward's perfect body," and voila!

Also, have fun playing with tween girls.

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