Majuba |
I didn't see a thread yet for this one.
High combat, but good roleplay and can move quick with the right group.
Question:
Have you run it? High points? Low points?
WalterGM RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hey Majuba, I assume the spellbook was left out as a clerical error. Nothing happens in the scenario backstory that would make me assume he has lost it.
I ran this a 5 times at PaizoCon and have some thoughts (some not so kind) about it.
1. Run the second combat as efficiently as possible. As it mechanically boils down to you running 5 different stat blocks (Thurl, his eidolon, unfettered eidolons, nabasus, and barbarians), you need to be on the top of your game for that fight. And since some interaction will just be your NPCs attacking each other, you need to be able to do those interactions quickly in order to keep focus on the PCs. I fear it can very easily turn into "hey, look what I can do!" as the GM rolls a bunch of dice and mumbles to themselves.
2. I dislike that the golem is the optional encounter, and not the wolves. The golem at the end is one of the few RP mechanics in the scenario and removing it if you're short on time makes the entire scenario come off as a slugfest. And with 4, potentially 5 encounters and 3 traps/hazards, I think this scenario can easily go over time, especially with a slower table.
3. I also dislike that all the rich background information between Thurl and Tancred (and Nocticula's involvement) isn't ever presented to the PCs. They're instructed to kill Thurl, and neutralize Tancred, and doing the latter ends the scenario, so there's no room for interrogation. I had to come up with clever ways to get that background info to my PCs, since it's good story and it answers a few questions. The most reliable was if the PCs took a barbarian alive in the 3rd encounter, I would have that barbarian groggily recall what they'd witnessed: the dwarf turning on the man, the man making him disappear then conjuring the stone prison, etc. The only downside is that this still fails to answer why Thurl turned on Tancred. So aside from just telling your players at the end of the slot what happened, it doesn't come across.
4. I was disappointed that the overall scenario, including the final fight, lacked that "epic" element. For the endcap scenario to a season, it's nowhere near as exciting and momentous as The Waking Rune or Portal of the Sacred Rune. You fight two conjurers, wolves, shadow demons, babaus, and maybe a golem. Hardly the fights I'd like to see in the last 7-11 of the Year of the Demon. The worst part is that Tancred is supposed to use his summon monster spells to summon either wolves (lower subtier) or babaus (higher subtier). What a boring use of his time. "Yay, more babaus," eyeroll.
5. Lastly, I think it's lame that the entire party can miss out on their prestige if they bring down the tower by trying to open the final door. While that makes sense mechanically—"if you ruin this archaeological treasure, we aren't rewarding you"—what makes it suck is that it's a faction mission to open that door. Only the Grand Lodge PCs can benefit, but it risks prestige for the entire party. While none of my tables destroyed the place, I expect that this will be an issue as it's run more and more.
Overall, I did like the scenario, there were just a few points I felt that should have been done differently. I like the final location (the tower), and that this scenario resolves existing threads (Thurl and Tancred), and has that urgent feel to it (break through enemy lines, get it done Pathfinders!). I also like the backstory a lot, I just wish there were guidelines on how to present that info to the PCs. Had this not been the capstone 7-11, I would likely have been less harsh in my review of it. Honestly, it just felt like a regular 7-11 and not the season-ending scenario I was hoping for.
If I have any more thoughts, I'll share them as they come up. Those were the major ones I recall, though.
R D |
I ran this a 5 times at PaizoCon and have some thoughts (some not so kind) about it.
I played at one of Walter's tables at PaizoCon. (Thanks, btw, Walter. Great job!)
He's right. That combat in his point 1) above is a bear. It took a long time; it would have been easier if we weren't trying to keep the barbarians alive.
Our party did not fight the golem.
The final encounter was definitely anticlimactic. If you have the luxury at your venue, you could spice it up with some RP. That's what I intend to do when I run it--if I don't run out of time...
R
Ninjaiguana |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't run this yet - running it at Paizocon UK in a few weeks. I agree that from looking at it, the final fight appears weak. Tancred's spell list is pretty poor, I don't rate him very highly as a threat. I mean, come on - you're using demons, but your big offensive spell is acid based and lacks precision targeting? At the high tier at least, why not use chain lightning?
About the nastiest thing he can do is at the high tier, where he can summon a succubus to assist.
His first action per tactics is also hard to pull off - he doesn't have haste memorized, doesn't have a scroll of it or any way to cast it normally. Plus it's an opposition school, so if he did memorize it he'd have to use 2 slots! I'd suggest using his arcane bond to do it if you're desperate to stick to the tactics as written, but it seems an immense waste of a really clutch BBEG ability. (The haste thing comes up with Thurl earlier, too - one can assume since he doesn't know the spell he must be casting it using his spell tattoo, but that's never outright stated.)
In general, Tancred folds like a wet paper towel - 67 or 113 hp (after a potion of bear's endurance!), 20 or 22 AC, no mirror image, no displacement, no blink, no improved invisibility, no terrain advantage (being one level up doesn't count as terrain advantage at this level of play). One full attack and he's done. I have no idea why he's lacking all the good illusion-based defenses when it isn't one of his opposition schools. He doesn't even have the handy false life from necromancy - again, not an opposition school! Oh, he has a scroll of displacement - so that's 5 rounds of maybe not being dead, though it's not included in his buff routine.
Try this on for size - take a look at the last boss of The Sarkorian Prophecy - another 7-11 with a caster final boss - and compare him to Tancred. Yeeeeah. And I realize Tancred has minions which the Sarkorian boss lacks, but I don't think they're as much of a help as all that.
TriOmegaZero |
Walter ran the hell out of this for me in PaizoCon's first slot, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I share his complaint that for how memorable these villians are, almost none of it comes to the fore in the scenario. I knew who they were, my characters knew who they were, but we get thrown into combat without even a chance for a quick one-liner. I may omit the kill order from the mission brief when I run this one just so we have a chance after the fight.
Also, love that Thurl is a summoner. I want to see more pouncing death beasts on the enemy side for once.
Majuba |
I'd suggest using his arcane bond to do it if you're desperate to stick to the tactics as written, but it seems an immense waste of a really clutch BBEG ability.
FYI - you can't use your arcane bond to cast an opposition school spell.
Ninjaiguana |
FYI - you can't use your arcane bond to cast an opposition school spell.
My word, so you can't! I've never noticed that clause before! On reflection, that may be because not many wizards bother to have opposition school spells in their spellbooks in my experience.
In that case, his tactics as written can't be followed - best to just ignore the haste entirely.
David Baker - Manitoba VC |
Then it seems to me that Tancred's best course of action would be to use his SA Invisibility once he notices the PCs in the building, followed by True Seeing. They last for some time, probably more than enough for them to still be active when the PCs come knocking, and he knows they will.
He's squishy, so he needs some meat up front once things get nasty. Use his Summon Demon Special ability, follwoed by Summon VI for perhaps a Huge Ice Elemental or Shadow Demon to control some space (chosen based on what PCs he sees, since he's not stupid. An evil creature vs. what appreas to be a Paladin is just a bad choice). As a conjurer, his best bet would be to remain invisible, summon a few critters that are immune to cold and able to keep the PCs occupied, then when the time is right, blast away with his Cone of Cold, using his Demonic Mark to cast it twice.
But since the best laid plans never survive the first volley with an enemy, that could be all for not, though there should be enough on the field initially to give him that time to make the PCs lives miserable.
The Human Diversion |
Question about after the PCs get to Jormurdun
What is the right answer? I don't think it ever says.
DrSwordopolis |
Also, love that Thurl is a summoner. I want to see more pouncing death beasts on the enemy side for once.
Agreed. At one of my tables they decided to focus fire on the Eidolon rather than the summoner. They downed it just before Thurl's turn and wondered why I said "Oh, good, the fight was almost over" shortly before a charging dire kitty burst into existence brought the magus from full to just shy of dead.
Then it seems to me that Tancred's best course of action would be to use his SA Invisibility once he notices the PCs in the building, followed by True Seeing. They last for some time, probably more than enough for them to still be active when the PCs come knocking, and he knows they will.
He's squishy, so he needs some meat up front once things get nasty. Use his Summon Demon Special ability, follwoed by Summon VI for perhaps a Huge Ice Elemental or Shadow Demon to control some space (chosen based on what PCs he sees, since he's not stupid. An evil creature vs. what appreas to be a Paladin is just a bad choice). As a conjurer, his best bet would be to remain invisible, summon a few critters that are immune to cold and able to keep the PCs occupied, then when the time is right, blast away with his Cone of Cold, using his Demonic Mark to cast it twice.But since the best laid plans never survive the first volley with an enemy, that could be all for not, though there should be enough on the field initially to give him that time to make the PCs lives miserable.
Yes, but unfortunately, we're stuck with tactics as written, which usually winds up with him trapped in a 3x2 room and dead a round thereafter. When I run this next, I'll ask people if they want a challenge or not on the last fight - if they do then he starts buffing as soon as the PCs enter the tower.
TriOmegaZero |
Agreed. At one of my tables they decided to focus fire on the Eidolon rather than the summoner. They downed it just before Thurl's turn and wondered why I said "Oh, good, the fight was almost over" shortly before a charging dire kitty burst into existence brought the magus from full to just shy of dead.
My table focus-fired Thurl down to about 4HP before I got him in range for Boneshatter. We kind of metagamed with the thought that taking the summoner out means the eidolon goes away. Of course, is it metagaming when you've traveled with many summoners by this point? :)
DrSwordopolis |
Oh, I would've allowed a DC 5 knowledge Arcana check if anyone had bothered to ask, and I did make it clear that both Thurl and Eidolon had a bright blue glowing arcane sigil on their foreheads. They just chose to attack the Eidolon first for some reason, probably because it was doing a good job of keeping people from getting past it at Thurl. They wised up after the first summons, though. =)
The other two tables at PaizoCon, Thurl went down to a hail of Zen Archer murder-arrows and to a vital-striking cave druid ooze monstrosity. *shudder*
Andrew Christian |
If they trigger the collapse:
- how many tubes do they have to destroy?
- where are they located?
- are they all accessible to non-flying melee characters?
It appears there are 16 separate columns and 2 staircases (I'm assuming that's where the railings are).
So they'd have to do 18 separate checks to break the tubing.
There are 10 columns accessible on the 1st level and 8 on the 2nd level (2 are the same column on both levels) and since they are columns they should be accessible to anyone. And the railings on the stairs are accessible to anyone as well.
Andrew Christian |
Andrew Christian wrote:And NPC's work to the same rules.Majuba wrote:For PFS PCs.David Baker - Manitoba VC wrote:followed by Summon VI for perhaps a Huge Ice Elemental ...So far as I know, only the core Air/Earth/Fire/Water elementals can be summoned with Summon Monster X.
NPCs decidedly do not follow all the same rules as PFS PCs.
TriOmegaZero |
** spoiler omitted **
If the first person fails on their knowledge check and says the wrong thing, then a second person can try. But the first person cannot try the knowledge check twice.
To the clan that has returned home and seeks Jormundun’s embrace once more, speak your hall’s name.
Not the clan's name.
Andrew Christian |
Andrew Christian wrote:** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
If the first person fails on their knowledge check and says the wrong thing, then a second person can try. But the first person cannot try the knowledge check twice.
Andrew Christian |
Hey Walter, I guess we ran it wrong. :)
I got something wrong on this when I ran it on Thursday for a Pre Paizo Con pick up.
I thought the geyser was 1 minute of explosion every 1d4+1 rounds instead of a momentary explosion every 1d4+1 rounds over the course if one minute.
Made that fight really difficult.
The Human Diversion |
I ran it this past Friday and the only thing I noticed was that the filp mats seemed a bit too small for encounters at high tier where there was a lot of movement.
For example, the radius of the geyser explosion from the first encounter was almost as large as the play area of the map. I ended up having to put the flip map on top of some tact-tiles so players weren't bottlenecked in and could maneuver.
The wolves were not scary at all for high tier, one of them got one-shot by a mounted character with power attack and spirited charge, the others only scored 2 hits thanks to very high rolls.
For the second encounter, the Thurl fight, the barbarians were killed moderately fast. The shadow demon did make an appearance but everyone had clear spindle ioun stones so he wasn't nearly as big a deal. The real problem there was after Thurl used his haste tattoo the Stitched Abominations were actually pretty effective archers. When you're putting 12 bow attacks into the air a round you're bound to get a few 20's and it made for nervous times for the flying arcane caster at the table. Again, the flip-mat made for some tight quarters as players were wanting to fly over certain areas and get very specific distances on enemies.
Finally, the players decided to explore the guard tower before interacting with the inert golem. The NPC rogues got the jump on a character but then fell victim to a sirocco spell. The demons fell fast to the greataxe wielding barbarian. I had the best success using the demons dispel magic to remove player buffs, though.
The first fight seemed rather forced and not terribly scary for PCs who moved fast or had cold resistance. The second fight seemed a bit distant as there were so many things happening. The final fight could be difficult if the golem is triggered first, but my table explored up first and hence attacked just the bad guys. The players said they enjoyed it, though, so that's what counts for me.
WalterGM RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8 |
Hmm. I thought that it would be a dwarven hall, like Andrew would say, "I am Andrew from clan Christian, from the great hall of St. Paul Minnesota!"
Either way, there isn't an actual name or list of names that are "correct" in the scenario, only a mechanical skill check that needs to be succeeded in order to bypass the encounter.
One thing I did was grant PCs that had played "Halls of Dwarven Lore" a circumstance bonus on the check, as the recalled a dwarven hall from that scenario.
morbon Venture-Agent, Indiana—Bloomington |
Having played many of the scenarios that lead up to this one and give background for it, I was really looking forward to finally dealing with some thorns in our sides, especially Tancred Desmire. I was sorely disappointed and feel cheated.
This scenario is inexplicably long. Our group last night was fairly well balanced, lacking only a true rogue to deal with traps (which was not an issue), and a high level arcane blaster. We didn't even finish half the scenario in the about 4 1/2 hours we had. Our first combat went smoothly and quickly, but the second encounter included almost a dozen NPCs for the GM to have to deal with, all of which were made of HP, so without massive amounts of damage, it took us 3 1/2 hours to finally get through. It was just frustrating and lead to a sense of hopelessness in actually finishing the scenario. From what we heard, the last combat had the potential to be just as bad and run just as long, as the final boss was a conjurer.
I'm not sure if this scenario was ever play-tested for time, but it seems that without a high damage skewed party that there is no chance of finishing this scenario in convention time limits, which is what our store has had to default with all of the 7-11 scenarios in this season. I'm not even sure what we could have done to speed things up, short of have a GM who knew every action for a dozen NPCs on their turn, anticipated 5 actions prior, and taking into consideration everything the PCs could have done to them.
In all, I may have had a better rating of this scenario would I have had to time to really enjoy it and get through it. As it stood, we rushed through all of the fluff (i.e. RP, puzzles, plot) just to get to the necessary combats.
The Human Diversion |
I ran it in about 4 hours time, and if I remember correctly, Walter ran it more Quickly for us when I played.
The key, as the GM is to really abbreviate the battle against yourself in encounter 2.
I would HIGHLY recommend pre-rolling any attacks/saves/hit point loss between the NPCs and putting it on a sheet somewhere that you can just mark it off.
DrSwordopolis |
TriOmegaZero wrote:^ What he said. Playing the game by yourself while your players wait is a waste of time. If/when I run this, I'm tempted to just fiat those turns.That's pretty much what I did.
I was like, "Ok, they do some stuff to these guys, and these guys do some stuff to them."
Same here - I started "taking ten" on attack rolls for both the barbarians and the unfettered eidolons. Even then, that middle combat is a bear, especially if you have your players dropping haste/channeling/good hope/bard song on specific barbarians and not others.
DrSwordopolis |
From what we heard, the last combat had the potential to be just as bad and run just as long, as the final boss was a conjurer.
Only if the GM throws out tactics. As written, Desimere buffs himself in a 10' by 15' room for three rounds and then comes out to summon Babaus at people. In running it four times I've never had him finish his tactics before the players invalidated it by entering the room he was in and (75% of the time) murdering him immediately. (The other occasion he managed to get a concentration check off and teleport to the room at the top of the tower, which bought him two additional rounds of life.)
TriOmegaZero |
Andrew Christian wrote:Same here - I started "taking ten" on attack rolls for both the barbarians and the unfettered eidolons. Even then, that middle combat is a bear, especially if you have your players dropping haste/channeling/good hope/bard song on specific barbarians and not others.TriOmegaZero wrote:^ What he said. Playing the game by yourself while your players wait is a waste of time. If/when I run this, I'm tempted to just fiat those turns.That's pretty much what I did.
I was like, "Ok, they do some stuff to these guys, and these guys do some stuff to them."
I feel like this combat would have benefited greatly from a script like the one used for Weapon in the Rift. (Avoiding spoilers, you know the one if you've run it.)
DrSwordopolis |
Just seems you can run at the front door, which seems destined for a bad day, or drop in via a rooftop entry which seems far less obvious a death-trap...
Cheers TOZ!
Will see if the lads try for a rooftop dynamic entry :p
Yeah, you'd think, but I've yet to have a party go for anything other than the front door. I describe the three-tiered structure and show 'em the handout, but newp. *shrug*
andreww |
NPCs decidedly do not follow all the same rules as PFS PCs.
NPC's may use different rules to PC's at the point of creation and may have access to material which PC's do not have but once they hit the table they use the same rules for play as everyone else unless something in their stat block calls it out as being different.
David Baker - Manitoba VC |
Reason I suggested alternate tactics, is that he is physically unable to follow the tactics as listed. He does not have haste memorized, (and as far as I know), he has zero way of casting it. It's also an opposition school for him, so even if he had an arcane bond, (where nowhere it mentions this), he cannot cast opposition schools from it, thus his tactics as written are invalid.
A DC 5 perception check (once the PCs are in the building) gives them all the time in the world to prepare for the coming storm.
Andrew Christian |
Andrew Christian wrote:NPCs decidedly do not follow all the same rules as PFS PCs.NPC's may use different rules to PC's at the point of creation and may have access to material which PC's do not have but once they hit the table they use the same rules for play as everyone else unless something in their stat block calls it out as being different.
Quote the Pathfinder rule that disallows this then.
lastblacknight |
We went in through the roof - we found the gates of doom and decided that entry through the non-trapped roof seemed a smarter idea.
Our Rogue and Hellknight locked down the central chamber whilst the guys upstairs took apart the Babaus that 'ported in.
We had fun (took a while though)... Winners... and we didn't p*ss of the Beasty downstairs.
Kyrie Ebonblade, Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville |
WalterGM RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Orders only call out not to break anything. In fact, Farabellus mentions what to do if you do get through the gate.
“And one more thing. If you do manage to get inside, try not to break anything. High King Borogrim is allowing the Society to explore the Citadel first, but we must turn it over in good condition."
You're more than welcome to explore, cooperate, and report ;)
doc the grey |
So I actually have a really big question here that might need to be addressed.
Now I know that example is a little harsh and probably not my first choice but I'm interested to know if that is possible? I know people keep saying that this scenario doesn't feel big or epic enough and I would love to know that I'm given a bit more room to play in this regard. Also considering this is the freakin Worldwound the option for things to be abjectly horrifying in all aspects seems pretty on the nose.
Gabriel Smith-Dalrymple |
So I actually have a really big question here that might need to be addressed.
** spoiler omitted **
Now I know that example is a little harsh and probably not my first choice but I'm interested to know if that is possible? I know people keep saying that this scenario doesn't feel big or epic enough and I would love to know that I'm given a bit more room to play in this regard. Also considering this is the freakin Worldwound the option for things to be abjectly horrifying in all aspects seems pretty on the nose.
The scenario also specifically calls out "though some rolls may present results far above the PC's capabilities" which to me basically means, if you roll something that will most likely kill your party, just re-roll it. Use common sense to not kill the party with a weather phenomenon.