Owner - D20 Hobbies
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No one has managed to jailbreak the Apple TV3 yet, and it's just about at the end of it's product life.
Airplay does what the majority of people wanted to do with an ATV. So is there even much demand for a jailbroken one now? I no longer need mine JB.
I'm going to need the context for which this FAQ was written because as it stands, the question, itself, confuses me.
I'm fairly certain the context is "if you add a spell known and it doesn't say to add it to your class spell list, then the spell chosen must be a spell already on your class spell list."
Kind of like 3.5's Feat Extra Spell. It just said "add a spell known" and for a while until they FAQ it, people took that to mean Wizards can add Heal to their spell known and cast Arcane Heals.
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Having just read through this to number 99 as Im sure there has been some added, Im still confused. Dreamed Secrets- are you now saying that this feat does not work as written FOR NOW, but will be relooked at? Cause I really love this one for a cleric I want to build. Why should wizards be the only ones with contingency, and other cool spells.
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It is not just gold dragons. Other dragons have this as well. Umbral dragons for example.
I just assume monsters don't always follow the same rules as players and let it go.
Most of the spells on Melazmera's spell list are divine: Heal, Blade Barrier, Flame Strike, most of the cure spells, etc.
Yep, but the royal naga is still a very interesting outlier because it doesn't receive any particular ability to add non-sorcerer spells in general, like its bestiary near-neighbor the guardian naga.
Having just read through this to number 99 as Im sure there has been some added, Im still confused. Dreamed Secrets- are you now saying that this feat does not work as written FOR NOW, but will be relooked at? Cause I really love this one for a cleric I want to build. Why should wizards be the only ones with contingency, and other cool spells.That sounds right to me. The letter of the FAQ precludes Dreamed Secrets from being useful, but the spirit matches. Literally, its only use is to let a divine caster use wizard spells.
Hopefully it will be cleared up soon.I doubt, even in PFS, anyone would object.
For now, it turns out to be quite felicitous that the deities necessary to have Dreamed Secrets are not PFS legal.
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I find FAQs like this rather troubling. In order to prevent exploits by a few, it ends up removing valuable options for lots of players. What is being said here doesn't seem to be said anywhere in the books, and looks like a late attempt to fix exploitable rules.
There's the Totem Guide animal companion archetype. ACs are usually class features but they can be accessed via the Animal Ally feat.
Yeah, you guys are the zen masters of corner cases. And I know, since I was out there with you too contemplating the same koans until last month!I am not sure you can count Paragon Surge -> Expanded Arcana or Extra Hex or Extra Arcana as corner cases. They are really obvious uses which should have been spotted very easily at the editing stage. I can see missing Improved Eldritch Heritage: New Arcana even though New Arcana is in the CRB but it is a little convoluted. Expanded Arcana however came out in the APG, probably the best known of the expansion books.
Both however were spotted within days of Paragon Surge being released and have been known about for what, the last two years? That's not "taking time to get it right." I am not sure why it has taken so long but finding the right solution doesn't ring true as the reason.
I am one of the people who spotted it within days too (in my case, as soon as my subscriber copy was shipped and I gained the pdf). But that doesn't mean it isn't reasonable that it slipped through into the book without anyone noticing. It does require looking through the list of all feats, after all. If every spell and feat required a search of the books for every possible combo or choice in the way that you and I would do it for building a character (for instance, I am crazy enough to have a print-out of every rogue talent and ninja trick with me every time I play my ninja, with annotations for myself on ones I'm likely to choose, since I have Forgotten Trick), the books would never get out the doors.
Anyway, though, my use of the term corner cases is in reference to the post I was quoting, which is in reference to locating rules elements like that Old Ones feat from Inner Sea Gods
I don't know man, if you are developing a spell which does something no other spell does or has done before (give access to a "you call it feat") it would seem appropriate to at least scan the list of published pathfinder feat (which the last time I bothered to check was less than 1000.)
It doesn't take but about 4-5 minutes to meaningfully scan a list with 1000 entries. Improved eldritch heritage maybe you miss, I can see that. But expanded arcana? That was a lazy miss.
At least we still have the Samsaran.
Until that's "FAQ'd" too anyway.
Only benefit of Samsaran (after FAQ) now is getting a spell at a lower level: for example, Stoneskin is a lower level if taken from Summoner, than if you are a Wizard, etc.
Since it was already on your list: the FAQ is cool with this. You are just changing up the level of spell.
Since Independent Research specifically states Wizard, I wouldn't allow an Oracle to research (I would allow Alchemists, Magi, and Witches, as well since they have "spellbooks").
The spell research rules are not exclusive to wizards. There is an extended set of rules on spell research in Ultimate Campaign that makes this clear.
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I feel that this specific FAQ was probably unnecessary. The FAQ for Paragon Surge already pretty heavily nerfed people from abusing the spell, because they could, at most, add 3 Sorcerer/Wizard spells to their spell list in a day. With the FAQ, once they make that choice, it becomes 'locked in' until the following day.
It's a pretty tame ability since the 3 spells can't be changed with each casting, but it remains cool and useful. This FAQ is just going to cause a lot of confusion a people find more and more corner cases as they try and figure out what is and is not legal combinations.
I get the feeling the game would probably be better if this FAQ never existed.
What about Gold Dragons?
A gold dragon can cast cleric spells as arcane spells.
But they don't add cleric spells to their sorcerer list.
Can they still use their sorcerer spell slots to cast cleric spells?
Yes they can. The intent here is clear. Sorcerer spells are arcane spells and the dragon can cast sorcerer spells. Since dragons have sorcerer levels they can use them to cast sorcerer spells. Even if the wording was worse than it was then it would simply be errata'd to make it work.
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I don't know man, if you are developing a spell which does something no other spell does or has done before (give access to a "you call it feat") it would seem appropriate to at least scan the list of published pathfinder feat (which the last time I bothered to check was less than 1000.)
It doesn't take but about 4-5 minutes to meaningfully scan a list with 1000 entries. Improved eldritch heritage maybe you miss, I can see that. But expanded arcana? That was a lazy miss.
I am sure they have other jobs to do and you need a certain mindset to find things. In my 3.5 days I found a lot of ways to combine things in a manner that would make a GM throw a book at me, but now I am not really into that mindset anymore. Maybe the devs are not either. I am not saying they shouldn't be but I would rather them not spend hours trying to break every spell or feat that comes out. A class is something I can see getting that kind of attention.
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I feel that this specific FAQ was probably unnecessary. The FAQ for Paragon Surge already pretty heavily nerfed people from abusing the spell, because they could, at most, add 3 Sorcerer/Wizard spells to their spell list in a day. With the FAQ, once they make that choice, it becomes 'locked in' until the following day.
It's a pretty tame ability since the 3 spells can't be changed with each casting, but it remains cool and useful. This FAQ is just going to cause a lot of confusion a people find more and more corner cases as they try and figure out what is and is not legal combinations.
I get the feeling the game would probably be better if this FAQ never existed.
I dont think it was just for paragon surge, but for any future abilities which might add spells.
I do think however the wording should have been that you can not know the spell if the source does not add it to your class list with an exception for class features.
I say that because it does not make sense to know it, and not be able to cast it.
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At least we still have the Samsaran.
Until that's "FAQ'd" too anyway.
Only benefit of Samsaran (after FAQ) now is getting a spell at a lower level: for example, Stoneskin is a lower level if taken from Summoner, than if you are a Wizard, etc.
Since it was already on your list: the FAQ is cool with this. You are just changing up the level of spell.
How many time this should be repeated before people notice it?
The PDT's second post in this thread calls out that the Samsaran definitely adds the spells to your class spell list.
To put in all the passages:
Take a look at Unsanctioned Knowledge:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spell list as paladin spells of the appropriate level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.This feat specifically adds spells to the paladin spell list.
But let's say for the moment that paladin was spontaneous and had a list of spells known. If we changed Unsanctioned Knowledge as well so it read
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spells known as paladin spells of the same level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.Then you would need to pick spells from those lists that were also on the paladin spell list if you wanted to cast them. It would need to also state that they were added to the paladin spell list, like the original does.
As in the case of Unsanctioned Knowledge (and Samsaran's Mystic Past Life), all instances of intentional additions to a class's spell list should specifically indicate that the spells are added to the class's spell list.
and
Mystic Past Life (Su): You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.
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I feel that this specific FAQ was probably unnecessary. The FAQ for Paragon Surge already pretty heavily nerfed people from abusing the spell, because they could, at most, add 3 Sorcerer/Wizard spells to their spell list in a day. With the FAQ, once they make that choice, it becomes 'locked in' until the following day.
It's a pretty tame ability since the 3 spells can't be changed with each casting, but it remains cool and useful. This FAQ is just going to cause a lot of confusion a people find more and more corner cases as they try and figure out what is and is not legal combinations.
I get the feeling the game would probably be better if this FAQ never existed.
I dont think it was just for paragon surge, but for any future abilities which might add spells.
I do think however the wording should have been that you can not know the spell if the source does not add it to your class list with an exception for class features.
I say that because it does not make sense to know it, and not be able to cast it.
Seeing the ever increasing number of abilities and magic items that add spell know, I think it was time to explain exactly the limits of that.
The arcanist will be heavily influenced by this rule, I think, so probably doing the finishing touches to that class was what propted this FAQ.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What was so wrong about mixing magic anyway? It was a fun thing that helped add more stuff and alleviated cookie-cutter casters.
Oracle: "Hey, guys, I've worked really hard at it, and I've learned Magic Missile!"
Party: "Yay!"
*later*
Party: "Cast Magic Missle to stop the ghost!"
Oracle: "I can't. I've been trying to learn it since lv1, but now that I have it and it's taken up a spells known slot and three feats, I can't."
That doesn't make sense.
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What was so wrong about mixing magic anyway? It was a fun thing that helped add more stuff and alleviated cookie-cutter casters.
Oracle: "Hey, guys, I've worked really hard at it, and I've learned Magic Missile!"
Party: "Yay!"*later*
Party: "Cast Magic Missle to stop the ghost!"
Oracle: "I can't. I've been trying to learn it since lv1, but now that I have it and it's taken up a spells known slot and three feats, I can't."That doesn't make sense.
Because that was never how it was used. It was always.
Party: We have an obstacle.
Oracle: I have unfettered access to both of the most powerful spell lists via Paragon Surge! I'm sure there's some spell on one of these that can get us through this.
People say "Schroedinger's Caster" isn't real. At least with this change it's somewhat LESS real.
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What was so wrong about mixing magic anyway? It was a fun thing that helped add more stuff and alleviated cookie-cutter casters.
Oracle: "Hey, guys, I've worked really hard at it, and I've learned Magic Missile!"
Party: "Yay!"*later*
Party: "Cast Magic Missle to stop the ghost!"
Oracle: "I can't. I've been trying to learn it since lv1, but now that I have it and it's taken up a spells known slot and three feats, I can't."That doesn't make sense.
Try the Magic domain, if you really want that.
And, basically, what the FAQ is saying is, "If you know a spell, but don't have a power source for it, you can't use it."
Divine magic, in general, cannot power Magic Missile.
Arcane magic, in general, cannot power Heal.
Can you run AC power item A using DC power? Not unless you have a converter (it is added to your spell list).
Edited, for my confusion.
What was so wrong about mixing magic anyway? It was a fun thing that helped add more stuff and alleviated cookie-cutter casters.
Oracle: "Hey, guys, I've worked really hard at it, and I've learned Magic Missile!"
Party: "Yay!"*later*
Party: "Cast Magic Missle to stop the ghost!"
Oracle: "I can't. I've been trying to learn it since lv1, but now that I have it and it's taken up a spells known slot and three feats, I can't."That doesn't make sense.
Try the Magic domain, if you really want that.
And, basically, what the FAQ is saying is, "If you know a spell, but don't have a power source for it, you can't use it."
Divine magic, in general, cannot power Magic Missile.
Arcane magic, in general, cannot power Heal.Can you run AC power item A using DC power? Not unless you have a converter (it is added to your spell list).
Fixed that for you. Adding to your spell known doesn't let you cast it unless it has also been added to you spell list, the exception being if adding to your spells known comes from a class ability.
Yes they can. The intent here is clear. Sorcerer spells are arcane spells and the dragon can cast sorcerer spells. Since dragons have sorcerer levels they can use them to cast sorcerer spells. Even if the wording was worse than it was then it would simply be errata'd to make it work.What about Gold Dragons?
A gold dragon can cast cleric spells as arcane spells.
But they don't add cleric spells to their sorcerer list.
Can they still use their sorcerer spell slots to cast cleric spells?Dragons can cast sorcerer spells yes. But not all arcane spells are sorcerer spells. And not all arcane spells are on the sorcerer spell list.
See for example cure light wounds, which is an arcane spell for the bard. Yet if the sorcerer gains it as a spell known (but does not add it to her spell list) the sorcerer can't cast it.
Thus as written currently, I think Gold Dragons can't cast the cleric spells they know.
The books says they can so they can. However before we any further are you arguing RAW or RAI?
And I never said all arcane spells were sorcerer spells.
A history lesson: They are allowed to do this because some 3.5 dragons could select cleric spells, so they ported it over to Pathfinder.
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I am sure they have other jobs to do and you need a certain mindset to find things. In my 3.5 days I found a lot of ways to combine things in a manner that would make a GM throw a book at me, but now I am not really into that mindset anymore. Maybe the devs are not either. I am not saying they shouldn't be but I would rather them not spend hours trying to break every spell or feat that comes out. A class is something I can see getting that kind of attention.I don't know man, if you are developing a spell which does something no other spell does or has done before (give access to a "you call it feat") it would seem appropriate to at least scan the list of published pathfinder feat (which the last time I bothered to check was less than 1000.)
It doesn't take but about 4-5 minutes to meaningfully scan a list with 1000 entries. Improved eldritch heritage maybe you miss, I can see that. But expanded arcana? That was a lazy miss.
The collective devs perhaps do have other things to be doing. Whoever developed this particular spell should have realized that it was doing something completely new and should have taken the 4 minutes (ie, not hours) to scan the list of things (feats) that they were changing the access paradigm for.
I'm not saying they should look at every possible combo/corner case.
I'm saying that the person who decided to write a spell that gives players access to abilities 5/day that a regular character gets access to 10-22 of in 20 levels of play should have read the damn list of things they were granting access to.
I am sure they have other jobs to do and you need a certain mindset to find things. In my 3.5 days I found a lot of ways to combine things in a manner that would make a GM throw a book at me, but now I am not really into that mindset anymore. Maybe the devs are not either. I am not saying they shouldn't be but I would rather them not spend hours trying to break every spell or feat that comes out. A class is something I can see getting that kind of attention.I don't know man, if you are developing a spell which does something no other spell does or has done before (give access to a "you call it feat") it would seem appropriate to at least scan the list of published pathfinder feat (which the last time I bothered to check was less than 1000.)
It doesn't take but about 4-5 minutes to meaningfully scan a list with 1000 entries. Improved eldritch heritage maybe you miss, I can see that. But expanded arcana? That was a lazy miss.
The collective devs perhaps do have other things to be doing. Whoever developed this particular spell should have realized that it was doing something completely new and should have taken the 4 minutes (ie, not hours) to scan the list of things (feats) that they were changing the access paradigm for.
I'm not saying they should look at every possible combo/corner case.
I'm saying that the person who decided to write a spell that gives players access to abilities 5/day that a regular character gets access to 10-22 of in 20 levels of play should have read the damn list of things they were granting access to.
I get your point, but an entire archetype got printed that should not have been printed. I don't know their editing process, so I can't say too much about it. I do know some freelancers are good writers but may not be as up on the rules as some of the board members are. I doubt(hoping) that anyone on the pdt wrote this.
PS: Yes I am aware that me saying an entire archetype got past editing(juju oracle) is not exactly a strong point to make. :)
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I am sure they have other jobs to do and you need a certain mindset to find things. In my 3.5 days I found a lot of ways to combine things in a manner that would make a GM throw a book at me, but now I am not really into that mindset anymore. Maybe the devs are not either. I am not saying they shouldn't be but I would rather them not spend hours trying to break every spell or feat that comes out. A class is something I can see getting that kind of attention.I don't know man, if you are developing a spell which does something no other spell does or has done before (give access to a "you call it feat") it would seem appropriate to at least scan the list of published pathfinder feat (which the last time I bothered to check was less than 1000.)
It doesn't take but about 4-5 minutes to meaningfully scan a list with 1000 entries. Improved eldritch heritage maybe you miss, I can see that. But expanded arcana? That was a lazy miss.
The collective devs perhaps do have other things to be doing. Whoever developed this particular spell should have realized that it was doing something completely new and should have taken the 4 minutes (ie, not hours) to scan the list of things (feats) that they were changing the access paradigm for.
I'm not saying they should look at every possible combo/corner case.
I'm saying that the person who decided to write a spell that gives players access to abilities 5/day that a regular character gets access to 10-22 of in 20 levels of play should have read the damn list of things they were granting access to.
I get your point, but an entire archetype got printed that should not have been printed. I don't know their editing process, so I can't say too much about it. I do know some freelancers are good writers but may not be as up on the rules as some of the board members are. I doubt(hoping) that anyone on the pdt wrote this.
PS: Yes I am aware that me saying an entire archetype got past...
Totem Barbarian?
Totem Barbarian?
That is another one that got by.
Hold on, people actually believed they could use Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) to give a non-sorcerer non-arcane class sorcerer spells?
I entertained the idea briefly a year or two ago, and then quickly decided that that it wasn't supposed to work that way and was an unintended side effect of the eldritch heritage feats, lol.
Yes they can. The intent here is clear. Sorcerer spells are arcane spells and the dragon can cast sorcerer spells. Since dragons have sorcerer levels they can use them to cast sorcerer spells. Even if the wording was worse than it was then it would simply be errata'd to make it work.What about Gold Dragons?
A gold dragon can cast cleric spells as arcane spells.
But they don't add cleric spells to their sorcerer list.
Can they still use their sorcerer spell slots to cast cleric spells?Dragons can cast sorcerer spells yes. But not all arcane spells are sorcerer spells. And not all arcane spells are on the sorcerer spell list.
See for example cure light wounds, which is an arcane spell for the bard. Yet if the sorcerer gains it as a spell known (but does not add it to her spell list) the sorcerer can't cast it.
Thus as written currently, I think Gold Dragons can't cast the cleric spells they know.The books says they can so they can. However before we any further are you arguing RAW or RAI?
And I never said all arcane spells were sorcerer spells.
A history lesson: They are allowed to do this because some 3.5 dragons could select cleric spells, so they ported it over to Pathfinder.
Where does it say it adds cleric spells to its spell list?
Because it does not say that in my copy of the bestiary nor in the PRD.
Once again----> However before we any further are you arguing RAW or RAI?
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Hold on, people actually believed they could use Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) to give a non-sorcerer non-arcane class sorcerer spells?
I entertained the idea briefly a year or two ago, and then quickly decided that that it wasn't supposed to work that way and was an unintended side effect of the eldritch heritage feats, lol.
Of course they did.
Unintended side effects are what system mastery is all about.
In my opinion, true system mastery includes skipping all the things that would make a GM say "NO, it clearly wasn't meant to work that way", lol. That's what I would have said if any of my players tried this on me. ;)
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They don't have a generic feat that can be abused to get cleric spells. They have cleric spells. It's the monster equivalent of a class feature.
Yea, when it comes to monsters you can easily just say that they have a unique bloodline that lets them cast those spells.
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I see no problem with Eldrich Heritage giving some spell customization to a non-soc/wiz. The real issue seems to be the abuse of the Paragon Surge Spell.
Everyone seems to agree that the spell is overpowered and with unforeseen ramifications. That's what should be corrected, and not a 4 feat investment to get 3 spells.
I would just rule that paragon surge has no effect when providing spell through feats or, working only if cast at the time the sorcerer is regaining her spells. Once the selection of spells is in place, it can't be altered until next day.
Taking away those mechanics from viable builds is a low blow to reasonable, non-exploiting players.
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It would be much simpler to add a line to Paragon Surge(yes, it's an errata. Update the free errata PDFs!) that says you can't use it to gain access to more spells known. Then get rid of this threads "FAQ" and everything is okay.
This FAQ is BS! It's confusing and it will require 5 more FAQs to get it all done instead of a simple errata.
Also, this taking so long makes this FAQ look like it has a secret agenda and we're all sheep buying into it.
I don't believe it took you 2 years to realize the Paragon Surge abuse.
Something's up and we'll probably find out what it is when Pathfinder Unchained comes.
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My favorite theory is PFS folks complaining. Lord knows they complain and people listen because "they're the most consistent play group Paizo has." (paraphrase) Indeed, the cranewing butthurt is strong with me still.
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Funny you should mention Crane Wing. I just ran a module this weekend where one of the bosses challenges you to an honorable one-on-one duel, and she uses Crane Wing to protect herself. Last year, when I played it, she roflstomped our challenger, but this weekend she was defeated before the 2nd round was up. Half the people didn't even know about the change.
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Is that because of the change in that she never got to use it like it was originally written?
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Indeed. When I played it we had a grapple specialist, and we were sure he'd pin her in two rounds. Instead she used Crane Wing to deflect his attempts. The module is 3-5, so the chances of having more than one attack a round are low. She, however, has Flurry of Blows.
During the fight this weekend the challenger beat her in initiative, Power Attacked, and dropped her below half health in one hit. She tried to Acrobatics around him, failed (with a decent roll), provoked, and was dropped by the AoO.
None of which would have affected her if Crane Wing hadn't been changed.
Was it PFS? And, I guess since you've played a before and after what are your thoughts? Good or bad?
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It's a PFS-sanctioned module.
When I played before, the fight had us on the edge of our seats. When our challenger lost, it affected his character's roleplay for several levels, because up until that point he was "undefeated".
This time the fight was a joke. I imagine the reason her HP were so low was because she normally doesn't get hit.