Add Urgathoa's 2nd Evangelist boon, Death Knowledge (spell added to known only)
Good find. I would edit it in, but I can't edit the post anymore. That brings the count to 4 with a clear intention of function.
-Death Knowledge (Allows only limited access to spells from death and magic based on which class you're entering from, the remainder would be considered spells known with no ability to cast.)
It work for bards too and any future arcana spontaneous spellcasting class. They only need to have the same spell at the same level.
This is also a valid point. So it is functional but limited for the bard, reduced to a triple Expanded Arcana feat for a more limited selection over the course of levels 11-19.
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New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
Alright, so I have a question.
People in this thread have stated that the Cracked Orange Prism Ioun Stone can no longer help a Sorcerer cast Orisons like Create Water, because it's adding a "spell known" without adding it to their "spell list".
What about prepared casters?
Wearer adds one cantrip or orison (determined when the stone is created) to his list of spells known or spells prepared.My Witch uses one of these Ioun Stones to add Create Water to his cantrips prepared. Does this no longer work? Or was this just a nerf to spontaneous casters?Most likely the items mentioned will be fixed to add to the spell known and to the class list.
edit: I think the intent was to add a spell that was already on your class list, not any spell from any class so it should not affect the sorcerer or oracle in a negative manner.
Re-reading this thread (and the other new FAQs) I'm pretty certain this was meant to affect spontaneous casters in a negative manner.
But in this case my question is regarding prepared spellcasters. As the FAQ is worded now it seems they have an out, and I want to know if that's intended or not.
(I'm asking a legitimate question. I am unsure whether this point was left out accidentally or intentionally. I'm fine either way, I just want to know for certain)
Re-reading this thread (and the other new FAQs) I'm pretty certain this was meant to affect spontaneous casters in a negative manner.
But in this case my question is regarding prepared spellcasters. As the FAQ is worded now it seems they have an out, and I want to know if that's intended or not.
(I'm asking a legitimate question. I am unsure whether this point was left out accidentally or intentionally. I'm fine either way, I just want to know for certain)
It should not be nerf to either class if the spell chosen was already on their class list. Now if the player was using spells the class does not normally let him use then it does not matter if you are prepared or spontaneous, you won't be using that spell.
Related to your query: Basically what the FAQ does is prevent you from casting spells that are not on your class;s spell list, no matter if you use a prepared or spontaneous casting class.
New FAQs = good news, as there are numerous questions that need answers.
I'm glad you're coming back.
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Basically what the FAQ does is prevent you from casting spells that are not on your class;s spell list, no matter if you use a prepared or spontaneous casting class.
The FAQ doesn't actually state that. Everything is phrased around spontaneous casters and "spells known". Wizards, Magi, Witches, etc don't have "spells known". They have "spells prepared".
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Take a look at Unsanctioned Knowledge:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spell list as paladin spells of the appropriate level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.This feat specifically adds spells to the paladin spell list.
But let's say for the moment that paladin was spontaneous and had a list of spells known. If we changed Unsanctioned Knowledge as well so it read
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spells known as paladin spells of the same level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.Then you would need to pick spells from those lists that were also on the paladin spell list if you wanted to cast them. It would need to also state that they were added to the paladin spell list, like the original does.
As in the case of Unsanctioned Knowledge (and Samsaran's Mystic Past Life), all instances of intentional additions to a class's spell list should specifically indicate that the spells are added to the class's spell list.
If they become "paladin spells", doesn't that imply that they're now on the paladin list?
Basically what the FAQ does is prevent you from casting spells that are not on your class;s spell list, no matter if you use a prepared or spontaneous casting class.The FAQ doesn't actually state that. Everything is phrased around spontaneous casters and "spells known". Wizards, Magi, Witches, etc don't have "spells known". They have "spells prepared".
That is incorrect. A spell in a spellbook or a familiar is counted as a known spell.
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Basically what the FAQ does is prevent you from casting spells that are not on your class;s spell list, no matter if you use a prepared or spontaneous casting class.The FAQ doesn't actually state that. Everything is phrased around spontaneous casters and "spells known". Wizards, Magi, Witches, etc don't have "spells known". They have "spells prepared".
Actually, it does.
New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
Bolded for emphasis. Not on the spell list, not castable. End of.
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook.
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A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook.
You can bold the word "know" all you want, each of those statements refers to the spell the Wizard is preparing.
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook.
Again, the FAQ references spontaneous casters, not prepared casters.
If that's the intention, cool. If not, cool. I'd just like it clarified.
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Baku,
It is pretty clear at the moment. If its not on your spell list, or specifically added to your spell list by the ability which would make it on your spell list, you can't cast it. That last line I bolded in my reply makes no mention of spells known or spontaneous only.
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A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook.You can bold the word "know" all you want, each of those statements refers to the spell the Wizard is preparing.
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook.Again, the FAQ references spontaneous casters, not prepared casters.
If that's the intention, cool. If not, cool. I'd just like it clarified.
preparing and knowing are different.
You have to know it before you can prepare it.
The class feature calls out knowing any number of spells, but you have a limit of what you can prepare.
* wizard spell list (all spells that have "wizard" in the Level line, which a wizard could potentially learn)
* wizard spells known (a subset of the above category, consisting of the wizard spells a particular wizard has written down in his spellbook)
* wizard spells prepared (a subset of the above category, consisting of the wizard spells known that wizard has prepared that day)
This is also in the FAQ-->The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
So if it is not on your class list you cant cast it.
The ioun stone does not add anything to your class list.
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Based on my reading, you could still use Improved Eldritch Heritage to add spells to your spells known that are shared on your spell list and the sorc/wiz list - so an oracle could add, say, dispel magic using the feat and it would work just fine.
I'm really okay with this ruling. I never thought the Eldritch Heritage line of feats were meant to be anything more than niche options, let alone the "go-to" options for a majority of casters.
Does this ruling effect Ancient Lorekeeper, the Oracle archetype for elves?
Oh well, there goes divine magic missile...
Good thing i chose to ignore all FAQ made after that crane wing nerf.
But it is probably good thing, getting sorc spells for Oracle/Paladin/Inquisitor had kinda loopholey feel to it.
I very much appreciate the flurry of FAQs and would certainly look forward to a few more covering some of the outlying issues with 50 to 100+ FAQ requests. Also, I REALLY like the idea of a blog post on Simulacrum that Mark mentioned in one of these threads - seems like the right response to the simulacrum situation.
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@Prepared Casters--When we wrote the FAQ, we had not considered anything with the language of adding directly to spells prepared without passing go or collecting $200; probably because that would be a bizarre thing to do for anything but a 0th-level spell, where the assumption for a prepared caster is that you already have all of those in your spellboo0 (plus it would be tantamount to an extra spell per day for wizards, rather than parallel to a spell known for sorcerers, if it was for anything but 0th). I believe, as wraithstrike and others do, that the final line will still require a prepared caster to pick an orison or cantrip on his or her spell list, but I'll be the first to admit that 0th-level spells are unusual.
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edit: I think the intent was to add a spell that was already on your class list, not any spell from any class so it should not affect the sorcerer or oracle in a negative manner.
I also think the Cracked orange was intended to only add spells already on your spell list.
So it isn't a nerf in my mind as much as a "letting you know this doesn't work like you hoped it worked" deal.
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After a quick search, I believe as written, the following abilities are all rendered dysfunctional by this FAQ.
-Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane for all-non sorcerers. (Adds to spells known, but not spell list.)
-Cracked Orange Ioun Stone for any out of class spells. (Adds to spells known, but not spell list.)-Dreamed Secrets Feat (Adds to spells known, but not spell list.)
-Daivrat's Spell Fetch (Cast as if spell was known, but does not add to class spell list.)
-Rovagug's Third Evangelist Boon, Destroyer's Blessing (Cast as if spell were known, but does not add to class spell list.)
-Urgathoa's 2nd Evangelist boon, Death Knowledge (spell added to known only)
-Rage Prophet
Stark, I'm really glad for this list. I added the Evangelist boon for Urgathoa in there. It should be easy to figure out which of these needs addressing (as you said, many of them are fairly obvious) and it looks like right now, almost all of the second set fall under the category of "not the exact same class that grants you spellcasting, but a prestige class tied to the casting ability of said class that advances it". Also, a lot of them seem to be in Inner Sea Gods, which is in general harder to FAQ (not in the core rules line). Keep 'em coming guys. The forums' encyclopedic knowledge is totally helpful!
And it still keeps the Ring of Spell Knowledge useful to spell-fishers!
==Aelryinth
And it still keeps the Ring of Spell Knowledge useful to spell-fishers!
==Aelryinth
Ring of Spell Knowledge correctly indicates that it adds the spell to your spell list, so it was never affected by this FAQ.
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Frankly this is all a beautiful illustration why FAQs aren't answered casually and quickly.
There's a lot of thought and research that goes into doing this right and completely.
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I welcome this FAQ...now i can stop trying to weasle the Eldritch Heritage chain into all my spontaneous caster builds...should free up some feats and i feel less dirty now
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So are spells class features then? Does Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) still work(as originally intended, I'm guessing) for non-Sorcerers if they used Paragon Surge?Spells, feats, skills, traits, and several other rules elements are not class features (although Spellcasting is a class feature). Also, as far as I know after the PDT chat leading up to this FAQ, Improved Eldritch Heritage was never intended to add off-list spells to non-sorcerers. It was a consequence of a new feat that interacted with a rules element written before the feat existed leading to all sorts of potential confusion since it wasn't clear what should happen with it. For instance, I remember when the feat first came out, there was even one interpretation out there of IEH(A) that you added the spell to your sorcerer spell list for your phantom sorcerer level equal to character level - 2, for instance, and could thus never cast it; and that also wasn't really contradicted by the text either. And if it doesn't add to the phantom sorcerer spells known, to which class does it add the spells for a bard/oracle multiclass? Both of them? Do you need to be high enough level in both classes to cast the new spell? This FAQ hopefully clears things up as to the intended interaction in such cases, but if there's any confusion, I'll be happy to clarify as I can.
Very good FAQs, both of them :)
So does the Ring of Spell Knowledge still let you cast spells from Another class list since it specifically calls this out as an option?
This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV. All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters. Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
My bold
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So are spells class features then? Does Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) still work(as originally intended, I'm guessing) for non-Sorcerers if they used Paragon Surge?Spells, feats, skills, traits, and several other rules elements are not class features (although Spellcasting is a class feature). Also, as far as I know after the PDT chat leading up to this FAQ, Improved Eldritch Heritage was never intended to add off-list spells to non-sorcerers. It was a consequence of a new feat that interacted with a rules element written before the feat existed leading to all sorts of potential confusion since it wasn't clear what should happen with it. For instance, I remember when the feat first came out, there was even one interpretation out there of IEH(A) that you added the spell to your sorcerer spell list for your phantom sorcerer level equal to character level - 2, for instance, and could thus never cast it; and that also wasn't really contradicted by the text either. And if it doesn't add to the phantom sorcerer spells known, to which class does it add the spells for a bard/oracle multiclass? Both of them? Do you need to be high enough level in both classes to cast the new spell? This FAQ hopefully clears things up as to the intended interaction in such cases, but if there's any confusion, I'll be happy to clarify as I can.Very good FAQs, both of them :)
So does the Ring of Spell Knowledge still let you cast spells from Another class list since it specifically calls this out as an option?...
This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV. All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters. Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level
Check the sentence juuuuuust before the bold.
LOL. Man you are Quick. Awesome!
Great work Mark and Great rulings the Design Team!!!!
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That said, I think it's also a great illustration of communicating with the users/forum and using them as a resource for checking/verifying wording validity and corner cases. As a group it's much quicker for us to find these things than the developers alone, and lets face it, I'm sure plenty of people are surfing these forums for the chance to put their knowledge to the test.Frankly this is all a beautiful illustration why FAQs aren't answered casually and quickly.
There's a lot of thought and research that goes into doing this right and completely.
Yeah, you guys are the zen masters of corner cases. And I know, since I was out there with you too contemplating the same koans until last month!
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That said, I think it's also a great illustration of communicating with the users/forum and using them as a resource for checking/verifying wording validity and corner cases. As a group it's much quicker for us to find these things than the developers alone.Frankly this is all a beautiful illustration why FAQs aren't answered casually and quickly.
There's a lot of thought and research that goes into doing this right and completely.
^ This.
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Yeah, you guys are the zen masters of corner cases. And I know, since I was out there with you too contemplating the same koans until last month!I am not sure you can count Paragon Surge -> Expanded Arcana or Extra Hex or Extra Arcana as corner cases. They are really obvious uses which should have been spotted very easily at the editing stage. I can see missing Improved Eldritch Heritage: New Arcana even though New Arcana is in the CRB but it is a little convoluted. Expanded Arcana however came out in the APG, probably the best known of the expansion books.
Both however were spotted within days of Paragon Surge being released and have been known about for what, the last two years? That's not "taking time to get it right." I am not sure why it has taken so long but finding the right solution doesn't ring true as the reason.
I am one of the people who spotted it within days too (in my case, as soon as my subscriber copy was shipped and I gained the pdf). But that doesn't mean it isn't reasonable that it slipped through into the book without anyone noticing. It does require looking through the list of all feats, after all. If every spell and feat required a search of the books for every possible combo or choice in the way that you and I would do it for building a character (for instance, I am crazy enough to have a print-out of every rogue talent and ninja trick with me every time I play my ninja, with annotations for myself on ones I'm likely to choose, since I have Forgotten Trick), the books would never get out the doors.
Anyway, though, my use of the term corner cases is in reference to the post I was quoting, which is in reference to locating rules elements like that Old Ones feat from Inner Sea Gods
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Spotting the Expanded Arcana/Extra Hex/Extra Arcana trick really didn't need you to look through every feat ever published to pick up on. We are not talking about obscure stuff hidden away in some small player option booklet from 2008 here. These are key common feats which sit inside some of the most popular major splat books in the game.
All it would really have taken is someone sitting down and thinking, OK, which classes actually get this spell on their class list and what sort of feats might they want to pick using it. That is about it really. At that point all of the common powerful options spring up and could have been dealt with there and then.
I accept that it can be difficult to edit your own work. I know I tell my students to put their undergraduate or masters dissertations in a drawer for at least a couple of weeks before coming back to review their drafts so they read the text fresh. However, I assume Paizo actually has an editorial system where someone new to the document is reading over it without having had a lot of input into the work previously so they are looking at it fresh.
It still is not that easy. I know the rules better than most people and I was not among the first to pick up on it. I just did not think to put that combo together.
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I know the rules better than most people and I was not among the first to pick up on it. I just did not think to put that combo together.
+1
Both however were spotted within days of Paragon Surge being released
You forget there is a mindset of people like us. People who look for corner cases. I've got around 60 local PFS players and only 3 (myself included) make complex builds like these.
It isn't as obvious to everyone these types of interpretations. So just because they were not detected doesn't mean they are not trying to find them.
Example: Apple has a whole team of people looking for exploits in the OS and fixing them asap. They try very hard to be the most secure OS and they don't allow rooting (jailbreaking in Apple community terms.) Yet every iOS gets jailbroken. Not for lack of diligent trying on the part of Apple staff.
Perhaps I'm being slow, but I'm interpreting this to mean that if you add to your 'spells known' it doesn't necessarily go onto your class spell list, which is what is checked for spell trigger items.
So can an Oracle with Eleven Arcana use wands of the spells he/she has chosen to add?
Elven Arcana (Ex): At 2nd level, an ancient lorekeeper's mastery of elven legends and philosophy has allowed her to master one spell used by elven wizards. She selects one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest-level oracle spell she can cast. The ancient lorekeeper gains this as a bonus spell known. The spell is treated as one level higher than its true level for all purposes. The ancient lorekeeper may choose an additional spell at 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th levels. This ability replaces the bonus spells she would normally gain at these levels from her chosen mystery.
It is a class ability, but it doesn't say it's added to the class list.
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Perhaps I'm being slow, but I'm interpreting this to mean that if you add to your 'spells known' it doesn't necessarily go onto your class spell list, which is what is checked for spell trigger items.
So can an Oracle with Elven Arcana use wands of the spells he/she has chosen to add?
It is a class ability, but it doesn't say it's added to the class list.
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class
They are added by a class feature of oracle, so that means they are now on your spell list.
At least we still have the Samsaran.
Until that's "FAQ'd" too anyway.
The PDT's second post in this thread calls out that the Samsaran definitely adds the spells to your class spell list.
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I'm going to need the context for which this FAQ was written because as it stands, the question, itself, confuses me. If you know a spell, why couldn't you cast it? If you can't cast it, how would you even be able to know a spell? If you know a spell, why wouldn't you be able to add it to your list. If it can't be added to your list, thus not being able to cast it, why are you even able to know the spell in the first place?
Perhaps, in the future, if FAQ response thread posts are going to be divorced from the threads which spawned them, the PDT at least link the thread that originated the question.
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A Royal Naga has Enthrall as a spell known.
She casts as a sorcerer, but Enthrall is not on the Sorcerer list. As a spell known but not on the sorcerer list, can a Royal Naga still cast Enthrall?
That may be an error. Nagas who have non-sorcerer spells should have a listing like this one:
Spells
A guardian naga casts spells as a 9th-level sorcerer, and can cast spells from the cleric list as well as those normally available to a sorcerer. Cleric spells are considered arcane spells for a guardian naga.