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I was just curious. I see some people love the newer style Faction Missions and Secondary Success Conditions and others not so much. Interested in seeing just how many prefer one style over the other, particularly if you have had the opportunity to utilize both.
I’m going to have to separate polls. One designed to ask from the PLAYER’s side of things and the other from the DM’s. Each will have 3 posts. Simply “favorite” the one that applies, both for the DM and the Player question.
First let’s start with FROM THE PLAYERS SIDE ONLY.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I'm about to commit an internet sin and double-post, but I feel it is necessary to share my opinion on this:
For the record: I feel that the secondary success conditions are independent of the faction missions. Tying the old faction missions to Fame was a mistake. But I believe that the old style gave PCs a better identity. I'd like to see these two things reconciled.
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*bump*
I miss the old way. I wish PFS would have at least kept the old style in place in Seasons 0-4. I've only had bad experiences with Secondary Success Conditions, and I really enjoyed having a task all to myself every session, and how I could challenge myself to complete the task in a cool and clever way.
-Matt
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1 - Personally I really liked the old way.
I understand that PFS is set up so your character is a "Pathfinder," but I'm not a fan of the Society in world at all. I love organized play, but I don't want to identify as a "pathfinder," especially after playing Eyes of the Ten. The old Faction Missions made it feel like there was a different way to play than just be some Venture Captain's lackey.
It's a vehicle to make things easier to organize. I get that. I just wish it didn't involve being a mandatory member in world.
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I haven't voted yet.
I'm curious for all the people who have voted that they have had more fun playing the Season 5 faction missions... can they share some of their memorable stories/anecdotes from doing a Season 5 faction mission?
It would be easier on me if I could remember more than one or two of the Season 5 faction missions (and I've played or GM'd almost 30 tables of Season 5).
The only ones I remember off the top of my head (and they aren't particularly amazing)...
This involved putting an extra, second book into the Ustalavian guy's collection.
This involved looting Thalia's or Koriana's notes and giving them to Major Colson.
I know a handful of the faction missions were "you have no faction mission, just complete the scenario." Maybe some of the folks who are saying they prefer Season 5 prefer that they actually don't have a special faction mission? In my experience, many of the people playing Season 5 don't have faction missions (because they aren't playing the right faction PC in the right scenario), so given that so many folks prefer the Season 5 faction missions, does that mean that players who are picking the wrong PC are being denied something special?
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I understand that PFS is set up so your character is a "Pathfinder," but I'm not a fan of the Society in world at all. I love organized play, but I don't want to identify as a "pathfinder," especially after playing Eyes of the Ten. The old Faction Missions made it feel like there was a different way to play than just be some Venture Captain's lackey.
I totally agree. It was much more compelling to play an agent of Taldor than to play a Pathfinder, especially when working with the lore from Seekers of Secrets.
*shudder*
-Matt
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IME, faction missions became such a distraction with their tie to character wealth that I made character specifically designed to accomplish everyone else's faction missions so that the table could focus on the main mission instead.
That character hates Season 5. Now my goblin on the other hand...
Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD
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see, I loved the idea of individual faction missions, it also sometimes meant wheeling and dealing, and doing deals so that a character (like my rogue) with slight of hand would help a say silver crusade paladin.
But what annoyed me was that some missions were almost impossible, but thats the same withe the new missions too.
I think what needs to happen is keep the current missions (I can live with em they are good fun) but allow the GM more "room" to make decisions as to their success.
A mission leaps to mind (can't recall the name) but the long and the short, you had to convince the guy of one thing, but the only way for success was effectively to panda to him. Our group was not pander's, hell we had real hero's and my shady rogue, we threatened, and in the end I knocked the sod out. but this did not fulfill the secondary success mission cause we did not panda to him.
so if they could maybe look at multiple ways of achieving the secondary conditions that would be great
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so if they could maybe look at multiple ways of achieving the secondary conditions that would be great
I don't know if I'm in the minority among players around the world, but at least in our region, there's a pretty liberal amount of freedom that GMs employ in the completion of faction missions.
For example, if the faction mission called for a DC15 Sleight of Hand check, most GMs here would not turn down creative use of ghost sound to create a distraction, followed by a Bluff check (perhaps a little higher, DC18?) to empty the room and accomplish the same thing. I've also seen PCs hire professional NPCs for a few gold coins (candygram?) to tackle them.
I suspect some of the dislike of faction missions (whether they are Season 0-4 or Season 5) is due to lack of the appropriate required skill (if any) and inflexibility of the GM to allow other means to accomplish the same goal.
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I haven't voted yet.
I'm curious for all the people who have voted that they have had more fun playing the Season 5 faction missions... can they share some of their memorable stories/anecdotes from doing a Season 5 faction mission?
The only ones I remember off the top of my head (and they aren't particularly amazing)...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
See, now my experience with the Stolen Heir is the exact opposite of yours. Our parties discussion of what to do at the end of the scenario was fantastic. Do we sweep things under the rug and prop up "the regime" to get what we need for the society, or do we do what the Andoran characters feel is right, even though it may jeopardize our mission? This made for epic RP from my perspective. You look at it as simply grabbing some notes and delivering them to the boss, I look at it as the fulcrum on which the entire scenario sits on. What way do you tip the balance here? That's what made the entire adventure memorable.
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My first experience with Stolen Heir was a player literally saying "if you do not pick what I want, I will attack the party". In that one, we had, for the most part, rolled bad at most of the major clues, so honestly had no idea what was what. Half of us honestly believed that Thalia was causing her innocent father to loose face, which it turns out was actually correct. We thought she ran away, and didn't know she had been "kidnapped". The other half believed that the father was an evil tyrant.
The second we started to talk about it, both in and out of character, a player (character was female, not sure about the actual player as it was online) "Do what I want or I attack the party".
The second go around, I ran it, (as we had basically missed everything the first time, I wanted to know), and well it turns out that both of them just need to get some boxing gloves and be locked in a room for a day to go at it. The party however, just absolutely did not care with most of the evidence. No one was Silver Crusade or Taldor, and their decision to back the father was based only on the fact they felt he would support the PFS and the Crusade better than the unstable (and possibly very manipulative evil daughter, which was not correct, but what they felt all things considered).
In both cases, the players where less than impressed.
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We should probably include spoilers when giving out lots of details about specific scenarios.
I've played this once and run it three times. My experience is much closer to dwayne's than DM Beckett's. Some went better than others, of course, but every time there have been either Andorans or Silver Crusaders, or somebody else who spoke strongly for exposing the corruption, even if it meant risking failing their mission. (And, given what the players know, it is a safer bet to go with the father than with Thalia.) It was good roleplaying, plus an actual conundrum of a decision to make on the part of the players. Some types of players (those who aren't going to get in character as much, more interested in the tactics and the rewards than the story and such) are probably not going to have a lot of fun with this, but with the right GM and players, I've found that to be quite an interesting scenario.
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My first experience with Stolen Heir was a player literally saying "if you do not pick what I want, I will attack the party". In that one, we had, for the most part, rolled bad at most of the major clues, so honestly had no idea what was what. Half of us honestly believed that Thalia was causing her innocent father to loose face, which it turns out was actually correct. We thought she ran away, and didn't know she had been "kidnapped". The other half believed that the father was an evil tyrant.
The second we started to talk about it, both in and out of character, a player (character was female, not sure about the actual player as it was online) "Do what I want or I attack the party".The second go around, I ran it, (as we had basically missed everything the first time, I wanted to know), and well it turns out that both of them just need to get some boxing gloves and be locked in a room for a day to go at it. The party however, just absolutely did not care with most of the evidence. No one was Silver Crusade or Taldor, and their decision to back the father was based only on the fact they felt he would support the PFS and the Crusade better than the unstable (and possibly very manipulative evil daughter, which was not correct, but what they felt all things considered).
In both cases, the players where less than impressed.
I am going to reread this adventure, but near as I can tell you have an entirely different version of this adventure than the one I have and ran.
Also Spoilers.
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I haven't voted yet.
I'm curious for all the people who have voted that they have had more fun playing the Season 5 faction missions... can they share some of their memorable stories/anecdotes from doing a Season 5 faction mission?
It would be easier on me if I could remember more than one or two of the Season 5 faction missions (and I've played or GM'd almost 30 tables of Season 5).
The only ones I remember off the top of my head (and they aren't particularly amazing)...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
I know a handful of the faction missions were "you have no faction mission, just complete the scenario." Maybe some of the folks who are saying they prefer Season 5 prefer that they actually don't have a special faction mission? In my experience, many of the people playing Season 5 don't have faction missions (because they aren't playing the right faction PC in the right scenario), so given that so many folks prefer the Season 5 faction missions, does that mean that players who are picking the wrong PC are being denied something special?
I make an effort to play a "correct" faction character in scenarios that have faction related things. So I, at least, am not one who fits your suggestion.
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I am going to reread this adventure, but near as I can tell you have an entirely different version of this adventure than the one I have and ran. ** spoiler omitted ** I am seriously confused how anyone could reach your conclusions after running the adventure.
Also Spoilers.
sorry, it's too late to delete or edit the above for spoilers.
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Maybe for season 0-4 it would be a good idea for Paizo to cherry pick the best faction missions from each scenario and use that as a "bonus option" for that character's secondary success condition (only that character, not the party).
The best faction missions can really add to the game, while the routine macguffin ones won't. Even if the cherry picked mission is not completed, the other secondary conditions are still available (for the whole party, as well).
So there's still incentive for a faction to play out their mission, and hopefully everyone loves the game a bit more for it.
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See, now my experience with the Stolen Heir is the exact opposite of yours. Our parties discussion of what to do at the end of the scenario was fantastic.
Oh, I agree. The scenario was fantastic and the discussion at the end about what to do is one of the major reasons it was a great scenario.
But, those weren't faction missions. One of the times I GM'd a table through the scenario, there were no no Andoran or Taldor PCs present, and they had that amazing experience with the conundrum at the end.
So, in my mind, that's not the "special faction-specific faction mission". That's just the scenario.
The special faction missions for Taldor and Andoran are a footnote in the scenario, so in my opinion they are not wholly unlike Season 0-4 with the exception that only Andoran and Taldor factions had extra "missions".
That's why I'm kind of surprised folks are saying "Season 5 faction missions are great!" I'd love to hear anecdotes about which faction missions from Season 5 (not overall experiences shared across all factions) were great.
I consider the wide majority of faction missions in Season 5 to be identical to those in Season 0-4. There's just less of them, which can alienate players who don't match PCs with scenarios. And there's less transparency without the handouts.
So, for some of the folks who are voting "I like Season 5s faction missions better" - are you saying you liked the faction missions better, or you liked not having faction missions better (which is different than saying the ones that were present in Season 5 are better than the ones present in Season 0-4, and not an option to vote for in the above poll).
For Taldor, they make a DC15 Diplomacy check to talk to Tercio into supporting Glorianna.
Andoran PCs either get an automatic success if they don't support Koriana, or need to grab some notes to give to Major Colson.
The above are the "faction missions". When folks recount the end of this scenario being great, I don't think it's for the above two "faction mission" reasons.
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The Taldan faction mission here isn't terribly interesting and is very remniniscent of typical faction missions from previous scenarios.
But the Andoran faction mission is great. It's part of the core of the entire scenario. No, the Andoran folks don't necessarily have to do anything beyond the scenario to succeed at the faction mission. However, their faction will definitely give them a point of view in what's going on, and should lead them to argue strongly for one outcome. The faction mission is about corruption in Andoran, and the entire scenario is all about corruption in Andoran. This is a faction mission I like-- integrated into the story, makes sense with the scenario and the story, and clearly something that those who follow that faction will want to try to complete.
Non-spoilery version: one of the two faction missions is very much in keeping with the tacked-on faction missions we typically had in seasons 0 through 4. It helps that there's only 1, rather than several. But the other faction mission really is integral to the story, makes sense with the story and characters, and is cool.
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I consider the main plot of Stolen Heir to be the main plot of Stolen Heir. I don't consider it a faction mission and then weigh the value of Season 5 faction missions against earlier seasons by considering the entire scenario as Andoran's faction mission.
I weigh Season 4's The Disappeared in the same way. For Cheliax, your faction mission is to essentially play the scenario. I think it's a great scenario, but I don't consider that a faction mission for Cheliax.
If I asked a typical player what they thought was their favorite faction mission from The Disappeared, I think most would not think of Cheliax (because they get the whole scenario) and would reference the Silver Crusade faction mission. That one can create a ton of roleplay in certain parties above and beyond the standard play-through of the scenario.
Even if I did consider the primary plot to be a faction mission, I'd still think the "add-on faction missions" from Season 4 Disappeared are better than the "add-on faction missions" from Season 5 Stolen Heir, for example.
My vote (still uncast) leans towards Season 0-4 having better faction missions than Season 5, but I'm open to persuasion by the majority here that are voting for Season 5, who I still don't see talking much about any specific faction missions that influenced them to cast that vote.
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I guess what it comes down to, is that I like it when faction missions are integrated with and enhance the storyline of the scenario rather than just being a tacked on "pick up this thing" style side-quest. With there being 5-10 Side missions per scenario in seasons 0-4 I never saw this happen.
In fact the only pre-season 5 faction missions I remember as a player are "kill the end bad guy" in a couple season 1 missions because they were gimmies, "get this guys ring" in a season 2 mission (and I likely only remember that one because it was my first PFS session ever) and one in season 3 where my faction and another guys were to get the same Macguffin and he was willing to go PvP over it.
It seems to me that what Season 5 has done is to give small rewards to characters that really uphold the values and mission of their faction, but only in a select few scenarios. In some cases those scenarios would be a poorer experience if there are no members of the highlight faction involved, (I wouldn't want to run the Stolen Heir with a group that had no Andoran characters, or The Horn of Aroden with no Taldor characters) because the presence of those characters can change the parties outlook.
It's also possible that Characters allied with the Andoran faction will not care very much and take the easy path and miss out on a very minor boon. This is good in my mind as it will encourage those players to become better familiar with their faction and it's aims... once again, using players tendancy to metagame (even unintentionally) to enhance rather than detract from the experience.
If it were possible to make every faction have a mission that was integrated into the plot of the scenario, and enhanced the story then I would be all for keeping things more like the season 0-4 missions, but I feel pretty confident saying that it isn't possible, and would lead to an overall decrease in the quality of the scenarios coming out as the writers had to put too much effort incorperating too many faction missions. I don't want to see faction missions dissapear completely from scenarios, but I like the way that they are more integrated in Season 5 and feel less like a frantic scavenger hunt spread across the scenario with nothing else connecting it to the story.
As a GM and player I prefer the old style missions.
Pros: I like hand outs, helps me feel engaged.
They gave me something else to focus on and not just rush through a
scenario. Many of the scenarios set in a certain museum forced you
to "explore", one of the big three of being a pathfinder.
Easy for a casual player to engage with. Not everyone is aware or
even cares about the political games. The subtle season 5 missions
don't do that.
Cons: Often seemed tacked on.
Disliked the fact that some relied on a skill the PC may not have.
Often the same. How many Qadiran mission were find three new
markets.
Difficult to GM when there are six players.
Hated she spoilers found in some.
Hated the "get this McGuffin from this tomb which we know is there
even though the tomb has been lost for a million years and no one
has been in it, ever."
From what I have seen the issues with the old style missions are as much as how they were constructed and not with the concept. They needed more thought involved, IMO, to make them work. And more GMs needed to keep table sizes down to a manageable size.
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My vote (still uncast) leans towards Season 0-4 having better faction missions than Season 5, but I'm open to persuasion by the majority here that are voting for Season 5, who I still don't see talking much about any specific faction missions that influenced them to cast that vote.
That's exactly what I like about the Season 5 Faction 'missions'. For the most part, they aren't missions at all. They're more like 'missions of opportunity:'
I feel much more satisfied when I get my faction boon for making choices that align with my faction than for simply following a direct instruction.
I'll readily admit that some were better implemented than others. But combined with the upcoming changes in the factions themselves, I'm quite optimistic for Season 6. It sounds like each faction's goals will be more straightforward, which will make recognizing opportunities more intuitive.
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as an aside...in my home PFS games I still hand out the old season 0-4 missions but use the re-vamped prestige qualifiers. The old missions are there for fun. Personally that is how I would like to see them moving forward.
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also
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** spoiler omitted **
also
** spoiler omitted **
That said, kidnapping one's daughter to avoid exposure of "the darker ins and outs of their family’s control of Sauerton", to maintain one's 'lifestyle' and avoid 'reprisal' from "unforgiving political allies" is not a great resume-builder when applying for the label of Good.
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I think the a little bit of a misconception going on about Season 5 and the way factions work. There are no faction missions in season 5. There are faction goals, and there are scenarios where specific factions have the opportunity to further those goals, but there are not faction missions like in earlier seasons. So, a scenario like Stolen Heir where the main mission and a particular faction goal (in this case, Andoran) line up is intentional. By not having to devote developer resources to creating faction missions, the developers can spend more time actually making the factions part of the scenario. This is a good thing. Occasionally something slips by like the Taldor goal in Stolen Heir, but in general in the scenarios where I've played one of the relevant factions, I've felt connected with my faction. And that goes back to season 4 and the Cheliax stuff.
EDIT: I see the difference between the old way factions worked and the new way as this... In the past, every faction had a small moment in every scenario, but they were often uninteresting. Now, a few factions, sometimes only 1 faction, have a chance to really shine in a scenario and for it to address their goals in a much more meaningful way. Has it been perfectly executed? No, but it's a new system, and I'm sure John and Mike are looking at the feedback on things like the Taldor mission from Stolen Heir and they'll work on improving on it going forward.
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** spoiler omitted **
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
And that's why I'm really excited about the new factions, which will hopefully remove a lot of the ambiguity inherent to nation-based factions.
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I feel much more satisfied when I get my faction boon for making choices that align with my faction than for simply following a direct instruction.
This is good feedback, and I understand this perspective as a player. You're saying it's more rewarding to be playing your faction and then get surprised at the end that you completed your faction mission by staying true to your faction's goals, rather than having a handout which makes you feel more like a puppet.
Here's another example where I'm split on the player perspective. Let's take Library of the Lion as an example in Season 5.
Library of the Lion has the following faction missions (or faction goals if you like, but I don't really think factions stumble into these as well as Andorans do in Stolen Heir).
I think this is a fairly spoiler-free summary:
Cheliax: Find a specific item
Taldor: Find two of three specific items
Grand Lodge: Find several items in the rooms and solve a puzzle you started with
To me, these aren't really different than the much lamented scavenger hunt missions. And I'm left with fellow party members (or myself) who aren't members of these factions wondering why I had nothing special to do in this scenario.
I've suggested this previously, but this scenario could have created a sense of more inclusion across all players if it had just simply implemented a few more faction missions for everyone. Thus, I kind of feel the scenario would've been better had it been implemented with Season 0-4 style faction missions versus the newer Season 5 method (which feels to me like some dice were rolled to determine which factions also get to do something along with whichever faction is local to the scenario's main plot).
Silver Crusade: Make a case to Glorymane that he has to see the events transpiring at the Worldwound and convince him to transfer some of his power into another item.
[ooc]Is there a Silver Crusade warrior type bored at a Library of the Lion table? Now's there time to shine and talk about glory and valor!
Andoran: Speak with the librarian and convince her that she must throw off the yokes of servitude in the library. Potentially forge a transfer order or something to get this done.
Qadira: Find your typical MacGuffin about trade routes (essentially a yawner no different than Cheliax's mission)
Osirion: Find a long forgotten missive about the Jeweled Sages that Taldor somehow acquired during its acquisitive days (essentially similar to Cheliax).
Szcarni: Plant some false information in the Library about "legitimizing" claims of certain members of "the family". This should be done in the blind librarian's room and either involves exploiting her blindness or working with others to get her out of the room as it's noticed the information is incomplete and needs to be updated with something in that room. This is one of those ideally done without other factions seeing, thus your shady Sczarni offers to "hang back for a second", causing eyebrows to raise.
In the end, I think we all obviously prefer good/thoughtful faction missions to bad/lazy faction missions. All seasons have examples of good and bad faction missions (although I think Season 5 has less examples of good faction missions if you aren't considering the main plot of a scenario to be a faction mission).
For those players (probably a minority on the forums), who have brought their Sczarni or Silver Crusader to Library of the Lion, it helps bolster the verisimilitude of why their leaders sent them there on that mission. As it stands, I have often seen players who aren't on a faction mission in Season 5 who consider their characters wondering why they are on that specific mission/scenario. Even a really weak reason to exist as a character in an adventure is better than no reason.
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I feel much more satisfied when I get my faction boon for making choices that align with my faction than for simply following a direct instruction.This is good feedback, and I understand this perspective as a player. You're saying it's more rewarding to be playing your faction and then get surprised at the end that you completed your faction mission by staying true to your faction's goals, rather than having a handout which makes you feel more like a puppet.
Here's another example where I'm split on the player perspective. Let's take Library of the Lion as an example in Season 5.
Library of the Lion has the following faction missions (or faction goals if you like, but I don't really think factions stumble into these as well as Andorans do in Stolen Heir).
I played Library with my Andoran character, so I don't have a good perspective on those faction goals. I absolutely agree that the implementation of the Season 5 faction goals was pretty variable in terms of quality.
I think a lot of the problems are just due to a shift in expectations. I ran Glass River Rescue at the start of Season 5 and it was a pretty solid flop for the players. I believe they failed the SSC and no one got their faction boons. And a big part of that was that no one knew what they were supposed to do. They'd been trained for four seasons to read the note and do what it says. All of a sudden you're supposed to
a) know your faction
b) listen to the GM for clues rather than ask for the blue flower
c) make a choice where the consequences are not clearly laid out
So we need to make a choice of which trade partner to pursue. Do we care? Is this the SSC? Do we lose prestige if we choose the wrong one?
That dwarf mentioned something about a sage. Whatever. Wait. That's important to me now?
etc.
Season 5 put a lot more pressure on the GMs to step up their game. You need to read your players, see if they were zoning out during the box text and maybe repeat the vital clue they need to explore for their faction. There's a ton more prep work to do as many scenarios seem designed to allow for non-linear exploration and have branching possibilities.
It also put a lot more pressure on players to step up their game, and not in terms of combat effectiveness. You need to listen to what NPCs are saying, be alert for when notable symbols are present in a room. If you tend to have lots of side conversations while the GM is talking, you're probably going to miss your faction boon. You need to really understand the goals of your party. It's not just "kill this guy"--it's "resolve this situation". That can mean a lot of different things. You can't just intimidate your way to the next encounter.
And that's why I'm really surprised to see how disappointed some people here are with the perceived RP potential in Season 5. Yes, there's less of a spotlight on individual PCs. Instead, there's more call for RP between PCs and NPCs and between the PCs themselves. Isn't arguing over the consequences of a pivotal plot point in character with a party of diverse personalities and alignments more interesting, more fun, more memorable, than a single player negotiating a trade contract with an NPC?
The old faction missions seemed designed to split the party. The new ones seem designed to keep PCs interacting with each other. I think that's a better design goal, but I'm also way more interested in team dynamics than individual attention.