DM is trying something new and wants the players to build a party with balanced attributes for some thematic purpose.
I don't have much experience with Int/Cha characters and am totally at a loss. I need this character to be functional/competent in fights.
Any suggestions on where to start?
Take your pick of arcane spell casters. Pumping both ability scores may not get you the most bang for your buck, mechanically speaking, but you will be able to do your job well, and also have bonuses to skills you might not otherwise have been good at. Whatever the case, you'll want to adhere to the age old practice of standing behind the fighter.
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Arcanist.
Ok, so run a Paladin. Leave wis and dex at 10.
Run an Oracle of the Lore/Lunar/whatever else can use charisma to reflex+AC.
Skill Monkey Bard would also be infinitely more reliable than a skill monkey rogue.
These will allow you to use Cha as something other than a dump stat and will allow Int to be useful too because more skills.
If you're allowed to use the ACG playtest, then as Petty Alchemy suggests, an Arcanist could be very good. Apart from this there aren't really many classes that get much from those two stats together.
Alternatively, you could create a very balanced skill-monkey or archer bard. Having 16 Cha, 14 Dex, 14 Con and 14 Int is actually fairly viable for an archer bard. The Int won't be a huge benefit, but will let you cover a huge number of skills combined with versatile performance.
Maybe an Improved Feinting Rogue? You need Int 13+ for Combat Expertise and Cha for Bluff. In 3.5, I made a pretty deadly Spellthief that feinted in combat for sneak attacks with a longspear.
Maybe try to be undead, so you can forget about Con and focus on Cha?
A diplomancer (sorcerer focused on enchantment magic and people skills) could work well for that. So could just about any bard-type character you want to play, or an ACG investigator.
Guys he said he wanted to be viable. A rogue with CHA and INT as his two highest stats is a lost cause for viability.
What he needs is a Bard, Lore Oracle, Sorceror/Wizard, Summoner, or possibly a Paladin.
Also what's OPs Point Buy?
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Those are the two highest stats for my PFS gnome prankster bard (Advanced Race Guide). Actually, his int and con are tied for 2nd at 14, behind his 19 starting charisma.
He's a debuffer in combat, skill monkey out of it. He uses versatile performance with Perform (Comedy) to demoralize enemies, per the intimidate skill, without the normal intimidate penalty for being smaller than his target. I plan to take Blistering Invective and probably Pugwumpi's Grace when he hits 4th level and starts getting 2nd level spells.
You could throw in Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display as your first two feats if you want to group demoralize enemies right from level 3. I went Skill Focus: Perform (Comedy) and Spell Focus: Enchantment instead.
At level 3, I've got +16 Perform (Comedy), which I use for Bluff and Intimidate, and at least a +7 in every knowledge skill along with bonuses between +5 and +10 in a bunch of other stuff, like Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Linguistics, etc. Speaking of Linguistics, I took the Gift of Tongues alternate racial trait so I get two known languages for each rank in Linguistics. This is important so I can insult people in more languages. Mock is a language dependent ability.
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Not necessarily. Not all rogues are backstabbers, and it depends heavily on the type of campaign. If it's heavily focused on social interaction, such a character is more than viable. Try to think out of the DPR Olympic box, and the OP should ask the DM a general idea of the campaign theme.Guys he said he wanted to be viable. A rogue with CHA and INT as his two highest stats is a lost cause for viability.
What he needs is a Bard, Lore Oracle, Sorceror/Wizard, Summoner, or possibly a Paladin.
Also what's OPs Point Buy?
If that's the case I sure feel sorry for Mr. Str/Con.
I think combat is a fair expectation.
Thanks for all the advice! This is a great place to start.
Not all the party members have received their attribute allocation yet.
Point buy is 20.
Our group is combat oriented generally, but we have been trying to play much more in the social/skill areas.
Would a charismatic wizard be a good candidate for a necromancer?
Which kind of Oracles work well with higher int?
As an Archer Bard, would it be useful to adopt any archetypes or stay with the vanilla? Additionally, isn't it necessary to have some points in str as an archer?
Thanks for all the advice! This is a great place to start.
Not all the party members have received their attribute allocation yet.
Point buy is 20.
Our group is combat oriented generally, but we have been trying to play much more in the social/skill areas.
Would a charismatic wizard be a good candidate for a necromancer?
Which kind of Oracles work well with higher int?
As an Archer Bard, would it be useful to adopt any archetypes or stay with the vanilla? Additionally, isn't it necessary to have some points in str as an archer?
I was thinking you could do a controller / compulsion specialist Wizard.
Something like Wizard N / Cross-blooded Sorcerer 1 (Fey and Serpentine). Use compulsions as a form of battlefield control (DC19 Sleep and DC 17 Charm Person at level 3 is not bad). Also be the party face (points in Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate, sacrifice a few points in Knowledges). You'd need to keep some tricks in reserve for enemies who are immune to Compulsion or Mind-Affecting spells, but I think it could be a really fun way to play.
Not necessarily. Not all rogues are backstabbers, and it depends heavily on the type of campaign. If it's heavily focused on social interaction, such a character is more than viable. Try to think out of the DPR Olympic box, and the OP should ask the DM a general idea of the campaign theme.Guys he said he wanted to be viable. A rogue with CHA and INT as his two highest stats is a lost cause for viability.
What he needs is a Bard, Lore Oracle, Sorceror/Wizard, Summoner, or possibly a Paladin.
Also what's OPs Point Buy?
In which case the Bard, Lore Oracle, and Sorceror/Wizard would still be better.
I made my statement with the full gamut of challenges in mind. A Rogue with excess int and charisma is terrible in combat and mediocre at skills. No matter how many skill points he gets it wont be more than his level in ranks for each skill.
Meanwhile the Bard focused on int+charisma is better in combat, have better skill economy, access to powerful utility and buff spells, and class bonuses to skills.
The Lore Oracle is actually better in combat due to focusing on charisma (charisma to AC and Reflex FTW), has bonuses on knowledge checks, is a full caster, and is very useful in non-combat scenarios.
The Sorc/Wizard focusing on cha and int has access to their full spell list and many skill points. I don't think I need to talk about how viable full arcane casters are at every facet of the game.
If what you want is disable device and trapfinding, then have the guy who got Dex as his high attribute worry about that.
Thanks for all the advice! This is a great place to start.
Not all the party members have received their attribute allocation yet.
Point buy is 20.
Our group is combat oriented generally, but we have been trying to play much more in the social/skill areas.
Would a charismatic wizard be a good candidate for a necromancer?
Which kind of Oracles work well with higher int?
As an Archer Bard, would it be useful to adopt any archetypes or stay with the vanilla? Additionally, isn't it necessary to have some points in str as an archer?
I think that high int goes well thematically with the Lore Oracle. Aside from theme their are some nice mechanical benefits.
You gain all knowledge skills and high int gives you the points to spend on knowledge skills. You can use Cha in place of dex for armor class and reflex saves. You are one of the most fun classes in the game.
Bard Archers can get around the need for strength by taking arcane strike instead. Ideally you'd want okay strength *and* arcane strike, but beggars can't be choosers. You still get a scaling damage bonus to every arrow you fire at the cost of a swift action per turn.
Bards actually hold up pretty well without archetypes, especially if you're playing a social and skill heavy campaign. They're perfect for being the smart and charming party face. A human bard with 14 Int gets 9 skillpoints per level, and using versatile performance means you can easily cover the all the party's diplomacy, sense motive, bluff and intimidate needs at a cost of only 2 skillpoints per level! (Note: As a Bard it's not worth getting Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate or Bluff as actual skills. Just get 2 performances that double up to cover all of them, like Oratory and Comedy.)
Typical Archer Bard feats are something like: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Arcane Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot.
Spend the first couple of rounds of combat getting your Inspire Courage going and throwing out buffs. Once everyone's buffed up you start putting arrows in the air.
An elf bard archer with Focused Shot (add Int to damage) feat.
An early entry MT? Like a Wizard/Oracle?
Not the stronget choice, but indeed a fun one
Maybe go dual cursed and misfortune enemies that saves against your SoS...
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Would a charismatic wizard be a good candidate for a necromancer?
Of any idea posted so far, this is the one I find most stirring to the imagination. Use your traits to get some additional Cha skills.
Psion/sorcerer into Cerebremancer if 3rd party is allowed
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I don't like all the archer bard suggestions here. That requires high dex, which at best, will be his third highest stat.
Bards can be very useful in combat without being damage dealers. As long as at least half the party are focused on damage in combat, the other half doesn't have to be. With cha and int as higher stats than dex, a bard's better off going the debuffer/buffer route than trying to be a damage dealer, when you just don't have good enough stats for it.
As I mentioned above, my gnome prankster bard is a debuffer with cha and int as his highest stats.
Worst case scenario, he can demoralize enemies all day long to give them a -2 on their hit rolls, saving throws, and skill checks, and he's got a high enough skill check that he succeeds even on a natural 1. Higher rolls just make it last longer. The Prankster archetype's Mock performance tosses on another -2 to hit rolls which stacks with that, and starting at level 4, he can mock multiple targets at once.
Or he can just completely remove enemies from combat with Hideous Laughter, or use other debuffs like Grease, Pugwumpi's Grace, etc. He doesn't have enough spells per day to act like a full caster and do those constantly, which is why demoralizing and mocking people is plan A, while spellcasting is plan B.
He's also got utility spells like Liberating Command, and he didn't have to give up Inspire Courage or Bardic Knowledge with this archetype, so I can buff my allies instead of mocking the enemies, and he's a full skill monkey out of combat, too. I just leveled him up to 4th level, and he now has 18 different skills he can use at +8 or higher, including every social and knowledge skill.
