A new FAQ has affected Paragon surge. Now I am of mixed minds when it comes to this. It seems to me that this is less an FAQ than an Errata, and honestly not a terribly bad one, however it does seem to cut down on the use of the spell significantly.
I would have prefered to see this as an Errata/Rewrite rather than an FAQ "fix" by slapping a restriction on a spell that is nowhere in the spell text and could cause discussion/table variation in places that are using books/PRD and where some do and some do not have access to the FAQ at a moments notice.
I am wondering what the general consensus is on this?
This is not a bash Paizo thread! Please, understand that I am only looking for opinions on this topic, not to attack the game we all play and enjoy or the company that makes it in any way.
Well they probably decided that BECAUSE of Paragon Surge Oracles...
While it is a nerf, it's not nearly as bad of a nerf as it could have been. Yes, you can only grab new spells once per day but it's still once per day. They could have easily said making a choice with the feat (like Extra Revelation or Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane)) was permanent. The spells or revelation gained would be the same everytime you selected that feat with the spell.
Once per day is a nerf. I don't agree with it being answered as a 'FAQ', but it's what they went with and it's not a complete neuter. An errata would force a change in print, if I recall.
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I guess they are trying to set a precedence for when spells grant feats.
This is weird and is not a conclusion that you can draw from the spell or general spellcasting rules.
This FAQ is more errata than anything else.
I don't expect this FAQ to stand.
As far as I'm concerned, it's still a very valuable spell; it's just not as..."open" as it used to be. Limiting it to a day by day case makes it nowhere near as strong as it used to be, but it otherwise remains to granting a powerful, unique effect.
Though everybody here is correct, chances are they will have to Errata the Paragon Surge text to reflect the change, given its paradigm-altering implications and that nobody will choose to accept the FAQ. However, a FAQ for the moment just gives everyone a heads-up that they're going to end up changing it. (And it's for the best.)
I would consider it an errata, and any future reprintings of the book it appeared in should definitely include the updated text. I've never even seen this spell used, so I have no personal experience with its brokenness, but I can definitely see reining it in.
Meh, Schrodinger's wizard is still alive and well though!
While it is a nerf, it's not nearly as bad of a nerf as it could have been. Yes, you can only grab new spells once per day but it's still once per day. They could have easily said making a choice with the feat (like Extra Revelation or Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane)) was permanent. The spells or revelation gained would be the same everytime you selected that feat with the spell.
Once per day is a nerf. I don't agree with it being answered as a 'FAQ', but it's what they went with and it's not a complete neuter. An errata would force a change in print, if I recall.
Not as bad a nerf as it should have been.
I came to post the same fix you did: Surging a feat that requires a choice locks that choice.
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There is no "errata" section other than future printings of the book in question. I like the idea of putting it in the FAQ until a new print run.
For What It's Worth: I think the paragon surge FAQ was put in as a logical extension to the simultaneous CRB FAQ on mechanics that allow you to temporarily gain abilities (if a spell gives you two extra stunning fists per day you don't get two per casting, etc.). The paragon surge FAQ forestalled a lot of questions that could have been argued over with some vehemence.
I wonder though... seeing as the feat for extra spells (expanded Arcana) can be taken many times, woudl this have any effect on Sorcerer Paragon Surge?
Meh, Schrodinger's wizard is still alive and well though!
Everybody knows the only way you kill a Schrodinger's Wizard is the same way you kill everything else: Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.
Back on topic, cheesing for multiple (even if temporary) feats isn't the intent behind the spell, so Paizo will nerf the Paragon Surge spell (finally) to reflect the intent of how the spell was supposed to function.
While it is a nerf, it's not nearly as bad of a nerf as it could have been. Yes, you can only grab new spells once per day but it's still once per day. They could have easily said making a choice with the feat (like Extra Revelation or Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane)) was permanent. The spells or revelation gained would be the same everytime you selected that feat with the spell.
Once per day is a nerf. I don't agree with it being answered as a 'FAQ', but it's what they went with and it's not a complete neuter. An errata would force a change in print, if I recall.
Not as bad a nerf as it should have been.
I came to post the same fix you did: Surging a feat that requires a choice locks that choice.
I agree that they should have taken the nerf one step further, but I'm okay with seeing how this pans out for most players. I'm just glad they acknowledged the problem. I feel spontaneous casters are weaker than prepared in a lot of ways, but I don't think that gap should bridged with abuse of a race-specific spell and a chain of feats.
There is no "errata" section other than future printings of the book in question. I like the idea of putting it in the FAQ until a new print run.
For What It's Worth: I think the paragon surge FAQ was put in as a logical extension to the simultaneous CRB FAQ on mechanics that allow you to temporarily gain abilities (if a spell gives you two extra stunning fists per day you don't get two per casting, etc.). The paragon surge FAQ forestalled a lot of questions that could have been argued over with some vehemence.
I assume you mean this FAQ.
Humm I am wondering where this would exactly apply.
So I guess Bestow Grace of the Champion, would not give someone the ability to smite a second time if cast again, it would already count the smite as used.
I cannot say I enjoy this change.
My only concern for the Paragon Surge FAQ is table variance until the PRD is updated.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It's funny; I was getting really tired of explaining why this other FAQ about how temporary ability bonuses being identical to permanent ones does not lead to the infinite X/day abilities that some folks mistakenly believed it did; it'll be so much easier going forward to just point them to the new FAQ with the Stunning Fist/Extra Channel examples from yesterday.
So I guess Bestow Grace of the Champion, would not give someone the ability to smite a second time if cast again, it would already count the smite as used.
De-lurk...
The Bestow Grace spell grants you one use of Smite Evil, it does not grant you one use per day. So you would be able to Smite Evil once per casting.
lurking...
Honestly, I think this is one of my favorite nerfs I've ever seen Paizo issue. Paragon Surging is still a very viable tactic, and the way they worded it actually helps non-optimizers realize the potential of the spell.
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*puts on tin foil hat*
What if this nerf and the crane-wing nerf were done for simular reasons. Like paragon surge was encroching on the arcanist like how crane-wing was encroching on the swashbuckler and that's why the nerfs came out. To make the new classes more attractive.
*removes hat*
While I'm glad to see this spell nerfed (It was broken as hell!), this FAQ is the last nail on the Sorcerer's coffin. I doubt I'll ever see one being played again.
Well... I'm not entering another debate about Arcanist/Sorcerer disparity. I've said all I had to say.
My main point of annoyance with the FAQ (other than it being an obvious stealth-errata) is that it seems like a very broad change to a very specific problem, which has been a frequent problem with the PDT. If Paragon Surge's interaction with the Expanded Arcana feat was a problem change that specifically, not the entire spell.
That said, I think the change keeps it useful enough as a once-a-day "I really wish I had this spell" option. Very nice to have, but not so overwhelmingly powerful that it makes creates a huge gap between Paragon Surge Oracles/Sorcerers and ones who couldn't use the spell.
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While I'm glad to see this spell nerfed (It was broken as hell!), this FAQ is the last nail on the Sorcerer's coffin. I doubt I'll ever see one being played again.
To be fair, if one single spell that is only limited to one specific race (that includes Racial Heritage workarounds) is the only way for a single class to be viable, then was it really a viable class to begin with? It's the same argument presented with "Fighters without Iron Will just aren't playable."
That being said, I much rather prefer Spontaneous mechanics over Prepared mechanics because for Prepared mechanics to work, you have to have Batman-level preparation. (i.e. Schrodinger's Wizard.) Don't have the one spell you need memorized? That wimpy scroll without Metamagics, Spell Focus feats, or other great goodness sure as hell isn't going to save your bacon. At least with Spontaneous casting I have more power to throw, either in each fight or over more fights, and I have more stable methods to acquire that which I absolutely need, by spending feats and using FCBs.
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*puts on tin foil hat*
What if this nerf and the crane-wing nerf were done for simular reasons. Like paragon surge was encroching on the arcanist like how crane-wing was encroching on the swashbuckler and that's why the nerfs came out. To make the new classes more attractive.
*removes hat*
I thought the reason why Crane Wing went into the crapper was because PFS GMs don't know how to, are too lazy to, or simply can't adjust encounters based on party dynamics?
In either case, Paragon Surge was filled with so much cheese and a lot of players were abusing it. Crane Wing was just extremely powerful in the early game and PFS GMs either couldn't handle it or simply hated Martials actually getting something nice to do besides make full attacks.
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I thought the reason why Crane Wing went into the crapper was because PFS GMs don't know how to, are too lazy to, or simply can't adjust encounters based on party dynamics?*puts on tin foil hat*
What if this nerf and the crane-wing nerf were done for simular reasons. Like paragon surge was encroching on the arcanist like how crane-wing was encroching on the swashbuckler and that's why the nerfs came out. To make the new classes more attractive.
*removes hat*
Not permitted to adjust encounters. PFS scenarios must be run as-is.
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Damn, I was hoping to be the bad, bad person to mention Crane Wing.
At any rate, I can't see how it's at all a bad thing. I still see way more sorcerers than wizards, because spontaneous is (generally) easier, more fun and less game-breaking than "I have a spell for that."
That being said, it's a straight up nerf for arguably one of the most broken spells in the game, one that doesn't completely neuter it, I honestly can't understand where the problem is.
While I'm glad to see this spell nerfed (It was broken as hell!), this FAQ is the last nail on the Sorcerer's coffin. I doubt I'll ever see one being played again.To be fair, if one single spell that is only limited to one specific race (that includes Racial Heritage workarounds) is the only way for a single class to be viable, then was it really a viable class to begin with? It's the same argument presented with "Fighters without Iron Will just aren't playable."
That's not the point. I doubt I'll ever see a Sorcerer in play again because the Arcanist is a Sorcerer+++, so why bother playing a Sorcerer when a different class does everything they do and is more effective 90% of the time?
But I digress...
*puts on tin foil hat*
What if this nerf and the crane-wing nerf were done for simular reasons. Like paragon surge was encroching on the arcanist like how crane-wing was encroching on the swashbuckler and that's why the nerfs came out. To make the new classes more attractive.
*removes hat*
Hmm... This is a real possibility, like when they stealth-nerfed everyone's animal companion just so the Cavalier wouldn't look so underpowered.
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That's not the point. I doubt I'll ever see a Fighter or Rogue in play again because the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger is a Fighter/Rogue+++, so why bother playing a Fighter or Rogue when a different class does everything they do and is more effective 90% of the time?
Fixed your argument. Interesting how easy your argument can be transferred to a Fighter or Rogue (or even classic Monk, though I maintain they have uses outside of attack and damage rolls). Are you sure it's not the same thing?
And yet, with that extrapolated argument, people still play the inadequate Fighters and Rogues (and classic Monk), for all the supposedly wrong reasons.
That's not the point. I doubt I'll ever see a Fighter or Rogue in play again because the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger is a Fighter/Rogue+++, so why bother playing a Fighter or Ruge when a different class does everything they do and is more effective 90% of the time?Fixed your argument. Interesting how easy your argument can be transferred to a Fighter or Rogue (or even classic Monk, though I maintain they have uses outside of attack and damage rolls). Are you sure it's not the same thing?
It is. I also don't understand why play a Rogue... I suppose some people really need to have the word "Rogue" on their character sheet.
Fighters at least allows for a few niche builds that are hard to do with Barbarians and Rangers, although I wouldn't play one either.I can play a Slayer and role play it as a Rogue, so why play a Rogue? Similarly, I can play an Arcanist and role play it as a Sorcerer, so why bother with actually being a Sorcerer?
And yet, with that extrapolated argument, people still play the inadequate Fighters and Rogues (and classic Monk), for all the supposedly wrong reasons.
the fact that people are willing to play a class that is easily overshadowed by another one doesn't mean said class is not being overshadowed.
All that said, let's not start another discussion about class disparity... Paragon Surge is fixed. Huzza!
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Emergency Attunement, anyone?
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Are they allowed to nerf casters? I thought the rules said that they needed to get more and more broken toys, and martials damn well better know there place as meat shields.
I like the FAQ, and hope it's turned into Errata if they do a reprint. Paragon Surge was simply too powerful to be left alone. It's honestly a shock it's been left as long as it has, and it's nice to see it toned back.
Emergency Attunement, anyone?
That. Is. Cool.
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Emergency Attunement, anyone?That. Is. Cool.
Well turns out the paragon surge build is just a bit more complicated now.
Wow... that's fantastic. Thanks for finding it Serghar Cromwell. And now back to your regularly scheduled Half-Elf builds.
Does that work with Spell Immunity?
EDIT: That's pretty awesome with Beastshape/Form of the Blank.
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This pisses me off. The only thing broken about Paragon Surge was using it to spont. cast entire spell lists on a whim. Using it as intended to simply get whatever feat you need at the moment (ad qualify for) was fine and not in need of fixing. Instead, they left that Energy Attunement feat in for a handy loophole and nerfed the spell to hell for gish/martial types trying to use it.
All they had to do was say, "You cannot gain spells known through use of this spell" and it'd have been fine. Ugh, this reeks of when they realized the gun rules were broken and rather than nerf guns, decided to nerf free actions in general.
And the tin foil hat guy is on to something. This nerf makes the Arcanist look more appealing. It also makes the Brawler's spontaneous grabbing of a fighter feat a bit more unique and special. It really does seem like some of these nerfs are driven by the desire to make the new classes more appealing.
Emergency Attunement, anyone?- Abjuration or Transmutation? Yes, Paragon Surge is the latter.
- Currently affecting you? Okay, so Paragon Surge needs to be cast first.
- Must grant a choice of options when cast? Yes, Paragon Surge does that.
- Changes the benefit (the feat) to another option from the same list? So it'll swap to a different feat of those available.
- Halves duration? Paragon Surge is minutes/level duration anyway, so you don't need to worry too much about six minutes turning into three.I like this very much. Takes an extra feat to get the Paragon Surging up and running and an extra standard action (and it needs to be cast first), but otherwise it still works. Once you have access to Quicken Spell somehow (metamagic rod, feat, whatever) it gets, well, quicker, since the Quicken lets you spend your standard action for the round to use Emergency Attunement.
You just can't keep those half-elf sorcerers down.
You mean Scion of humanity aasimars with racial heritage.
What I don't get is, feats in general are weak because they don't scale like spells do, nor do they generally do something that really can be broken. Paragon surge is seen as abusive with expanded arcana or improved eldritch heritage (arcane) due to expanded spell access. The heritage version you need to have taken two feats before, a focus and eldritch heritage.
If you're not talking about those two feats, how awesome can it be? A sorcerer snagging arcane strike? His base attack and strength are typically low. A metamagic feat? Still takes a full round to metamagic, which in this case means two full rounds, before level 15 and spell perfection. Other than spell access, what's the worst paragon surge can do?
Which tells me that they should just add a rider to expanded arcana instead of a faq. Eldritch heritage already has a feat tax.
They took back the free action nerf.
Gun rules aren't broken anyhow
They only took it back because of massive backlash. The same reason they went back on the flurry of blows nerf. They *really* wanted those things to become RAW, I give them no credit for failing to achieve their evil ambitions.
And yes, gun rules are, but that's getting really off-topic.
This errata feels very appropriate to me. I wanted to use the spell, but had a hard time convincing myself that using it on my Oracle w/ Eldritch Bloodline (arcana) to know any Clerc or Wizard spell wasn't broken.
Now, I can still do so, but the choices of which spells to learn for that day, are fixed for that day. If I wanted to bring out Salvage for that once in a life time moment when my boat dies; I still can.
Overall, I approve
This pisses me off. The only thing broken about Paragon Surge was using it to spont. cast entire spell lists on a whim. Using it as intended to simply get whatever feat you need at the moment (ad qualify for) was fine and not in need of fixing. Instead, they left that Energy Attunement feat in for a handy loophole and nerfed the spell to hell for gish/martial types trying to use it.
All they had to do was say, "You cannot gain spells known through use of this spell" and it'd have been fine. Ugh, this reeks of when they realized the gun rules were broken and rather than nerf guns, decided to nerf free actions in general.
And the tin foil hat guy is on to something. This nerf makes the Arcanist look more appealing. It also makes the Brawler's spontaneous grabbing of a fighter feat a bit more unique and special. It really does seem like some of these nerfs are driven by the desire to make the new classes more appealing.
Yeah, as I noted up-thread the PDT has a bad habit of making broad, sweeping changes to address narrow, specific problems.
Damn, I was hoping to be the bad, bad person to mention Crane Wing.
At any rate, I can't see how it's at all a bad thing. I still see way more sorcerers than wizards, because spontaneous is (generally) easier, more fun and less game-breaking than "I have a spell for that."
That being said, it's a straight up nerf for arguably one of the most broken spells in the game, one that doesn't completely neuter it, I honestly can't understand where the problem is.
The 'I have a spell for that' syndrome isn't as bad as all that. In combat, the thing designers supposedly focus on, it takes two rounds to use, until level 15. If combats run 4 to 6 rounds on average, increasing the amount of time a spontaneous caster is just standing there is pretty rough. Outside of combat, I guess you'll have to resort to summoning something with a spell-like you need instead of doing it yourself.
I feel sad because it takes away all the little things that could be fun, but not broken, that a spontaneous caster could use for different feats. Cast it and take skill focus for a social encounter. Take Arcane Vendetta and fire off a few weapon spells. Cast it twice and take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip... but nope. As a spontaneous caster, you can't have fun trying out different feats on the fly. You only get one feat even though/when you have several third level slots to blow. :\