there's several threads floating about the advice forum on the subject (and one linked in the 'guide to the guides' sticky, if memory serves). just search 'early entry'.
some MT builds i've made--look them over for some ideas if you'd like: neither are early-entry (though they can easily accommodate that with some level-switching), both are quite powerful.
ULTIMYSTIC THEURGE
CN dual-talent human wizard (diviner [illusion, enchantment]) 4 / cleric (desna [luck, liberation inq.]) 6 / mystic theurge 10
*levels go: wiz 3 / clr 3 / MT 10 / wiz 1 / clr 3*
stats (20pb):
str 8 (-2pt), dex 16, con 20 (5pt), int 30 (10t +2r), wis 30 (7pt +2r), cha 10
wis/int/wis/int/wis (level), +6 dex/con/int/wis (belt/headband), +4 int/wis (book/wish)
traits: magical knack (cleric) / reactionary
feats:
1 - Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative
3 - Craft Wonderous Item
5 - Heighten Spell
7 - Extend Spell
9 - Dazing Spell
11 - Elemental Spell (acid)
13 - Spell Mastery (emergency force sphere, invisibility, shrink item, dimension door, protection from energy, teleport, lightning bolt, ennervation)
15 - Spell Penetration
17 - Spell Mastery (time stop, contingency, plane shift, overland flight, mind blank, permanency, greater scrying, wall of stone, wall of iron, maze)
19 - Greater Spell Penetration
suggested spells
wizard
0 (infinite), 1th (7+1/day), 2th (7+1/day), 3th (6+1/day), 4th (6+1/day), 5th (6+1/day), 6th (6+1/day), 7th (4+1/day), 8th (3+1/day), 9th (2+1/day)
cleric
0 (infinite), 1th (6+1/day), 2th (6+1/day), 3th (6+1/day), 4th (6+1/day), 5th (6+1/day), 6th (6+1/day), 7th (4+1/day), 8th (3+1/day), 9th (2+1/day)
favored class (cleric)
esoteric training (35 fame [+3 wizard, +1 cleric])
greensting scorpion familiar
CL 17/19 wizard/cleric
+18 initiative (+3 dex +2 trait +4 feat +4 familiar +4 school +1 stone)
- - - - - - - - - -
MYSTIC THEURGE - NECROMANCER EDITION
CN Dhampir (ancient-born) cleric (desna [luck, liberation inq.]) 4 / wizard (cruoromancer thassilonian mage (gluttony), necromancy [abju, ench]) 6 / mytstic theurge 10
*levels go: clr 1/wiz 5/MT 10/wiz 1/clr 3*
stats (20pb):
str 16 (-2 +2r), dex 16, con 18 (5 -2r), int 30 (10), wis 28 (7 +2r), cha 16
wis/int/int/int/int (level), +6 all (gear), +4 int/wis (book/wish)
traits: signature spell (animate dead) / gifted adept (animate dead)
feats:
1 - improved initiative
2 - spell focus (necromancy)*, command undead*
3 - varisian tattoo (necromancy)
5 - bloatmage initiate (necromancy)
7 - improved familiar (cacodaemon)
9 - spell specialization (animate dead)
11 - persistent spell
13 - greater spell focus (necromancy)
15 - quickent spell
17 - dazing spell
19 - spell perfection (animate dead)
suggested spells: animate dead, command undead, (greater) death knell (aura), and desecrate are important
WIZARD
0 (infinite), 1th (7+2/day), 2th (7+2/day), 3th (6+2/day), 4th (6+2/day), 5th (6+2/day), 6th (6+2/day), 7th (4+2/day), 8th (3+2/day), 9th (2+2/day)
CLERIC
0 (infinite), 1th (6+1/day), 2th (6+1/day), 3th (6+1/day), 4th (6+1/day), 5th (6+1/day), 6th (6+1/day), 7th (4+1/day), 8th (3+1/day), 9th (2+1/day)
MISC
favored class (wizard)
esoteric training (35 fame [+3 cleric, +1 wizard])
greensting scorpion familiar, later changed to cacodaemon
strand of prayer beads (standard -healing/smiting, 18,000g)
\-->bead of karma: 1/day, caster casts at +4 CL for 10 minutes
moon circlet (CL +1 waxing, +2 full, -1 waning, -2 new)
'reliquary' +5 arrow catch | med fort | spell storing mithral buckler (acts as permanent alter for desecrate)
CL 17/17 wizard/cleric
CL (animate dead) 39-42 (wiz/clr) (17 base, +4 focus, +4 spec, +2 trait, +2 tattoo, +2 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1-+2) wayfinder, +1 death knell, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
CL 29-32 (control undead) (17 base, +2 focus, +1 tattoo, +1 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1-+2) wayfinder, +1 death knell, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
UNDEAD BUCKETS:
animate (wizard) - 200 HD (blood command), 81-90 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
animate (cleric) - 200 HD (blood command), 81-90 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
feat - 6 HD
control undead - [one creature], 32 days/cast (refreshed every full moon)
i agree with bender here; it's easier to take 1 level in something with early-access, then the rest in whatever you're focusing on before MT levels--worry about evening them out later, you have to keep on top of staying useful to the party and leveling up before the MT fully blooms in power/flexibility.
as for stat-dependency, i don't mind having two casting stats--as a caster your only concerns are [casting stat] and dex, with just enough con to survive at character creation. tacking on a second main stat shouldn't be too much of an issue going along.
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Take the Trickery Domain and do it as Cleric2/Wizard1. Personally I think Cleric2/Empyreal Sorcerer1 is better as you double up on Wisdom as your caster stat.cleric 2? but i need lvl 2 spell .... the race cover the arcane side...
The Copycat power from the Trickery Domain counts as a level 2 Divine spell and thus fulfils that part of the entry requirements, getting the prestige class online much earlier than otherwise might be expected.
I can see the logic of monk, but I think it's a bad idea all the same. MT delays your casting far too much already, even when entering at level 4 and ESPECIALLY when going empyreal sorcerer. 'Thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels' is just as valid in PF as it was in 3.5.
Wis to AC is tempting.... but even at level 3 that extra caster level is netting you mage armour, which begins to even out the score.
I've been looking at making a Tiefling cleric / Empyreal Sorcerer of a CE deity, with the goal of taking Sacred Summons and focusing on Conjuration spells.
afaik only nature and lore have the cha-instead-of-dex power (nature's whispers and sidestep secret, respectively), does wood get it as well?
Here's my build for theurges.
Half Elf(drow magic) or Tiefling
Cleric (trickery domain or fate inquisition)
Wizard
Clc 1/Wiz 2/MT 10/Wiz 7
You get your wizard spells one level behind like a sorcerer, and your cleric spells only 2 levels behind and they go up to 6th which is where Heal comes online
You want your highest stat in Int and put all level up into it, you can get away with a 14 Wis if you use an item to boost it, then Dex, Con, and you shouldn't need to worry too much about Str or Cha (your channel is going to be that of a 1st level cleric forever).
I like the concept of the MT, but it's always going to be slightly limited to generally avoiding spells with Saves as you need to split your casting stats a bit. Going Wizard & Cleric and early entry does reduce the burden of late spell access, which is pretty much what makes it viable. While Mono-statting a Sorcerer & Oracle sounds good you get awful spell progression and miss most of your cool Mystery & Bloodline benefits by going MT, add in a non-progressing Curse.
Personally I reckon the Wiz 2/Cler 1/ MT 10/Wiz X is the best option. You're always going to be limited to a back-row caster role and high level Wizard spells are generally awesome, while low-level Cleric spells give you access to useful buffs, condition-removal and heals.
*Edit* - Personally I reckon the tradeoff between 1 Wizard caster level for the flexibility to heal, buff etc is probably worth it. Doubly so if your party otherwise lacks condition removal and a full arcane caster.
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I'd go with an Elf Wiz3/Cle 1/MT 10/Wiz 6. Trickery Domain.
Sacrifices a single level of Wizard to gain 11th level Cleric Spell casting seems like a good deal. Get Magical Knack for Cleric and later the +1 CL Ioun stone. Gives you a CL of Wiz 20, Cle 15. That's full arcane spell power and maxed healing from Heal.
There's not really a good reason to focus a MT on the cleric side. Your BAB, AC and HP suck so you shouldn't be anywhere near the front line, making all those (for pure clerics) great buffs useless. Wizard has better defensive spells and is overall better at staying behind and casting.
Edit: A good secondary Domain would be Luck with the curse sub-domain. Gives you a the Malign Eye power, an irresistable -2 beduff to saves against your spells for 1 minute.
Half-Elf (Drow Magic) Tattooed Sorcerer (Marid) 2/ Oracle (Wood) 1/ Mystic Theurge 10 (finish out sorcerer or oracle, your choice)
This is my vote for most powerful MT for a couple of reasons. First of all the spell Paragon Surge just wins for this character. Only one casting stat and very little use for str or int is a huge boon. I would fill it out as a blaster sorcerer and just double up with Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter on Fireball and let CL take care of itself.
PS the reason you use the wood mystery is the same reason you use the trickery domain, getting a 2nd level divine SLA.
I don't think I can agree with you there Gregory. A Sorcerer 2/Oracle 1/MT X won't get access to level 2 spells until level 5, which is pretty painful. Also, you only end up with level 5 divine casting, only 3 level 4 and 2 level 5 divine spells (plus the rather average wood domain spells). And you're stuck with a non-progressing curse, hugely delayed Bloodline powers etc. The tradeoff is too steep for the benefit IMO.
Corvino, that's why I said 10 not X. It definitely doesn't get going until level 7 and it doesn't catch up to the wizard version in power until level 19, but at that point the wizard is a joke chump compared to the sorcerer abusing Paragon Surge.
For something that isn't a theorycraft high level only build I would say Cleric of Asmodeus (Law/Trickery) 1/ Crossblooded Sorcerer (Draconic/Orc) 1/ Wizard (Admixture) 1/ Mystic Theurge X is a blockbuster wizard that sacks 1 level of progression for 11 levels of cleric casting. That should be strong enough at all levels to work in most games, and you can choose Calistria for (Luck/Trickery) instead of Asmodeus, it makes very little difference. Of course you need to play a race with a 2nd level arcane SLA, but that is an issue with the SLA FAQ ruling making racial SLAs far more valuable than they were in the initial balancing of the races. The FAQ made the class viable, but essentially race locked it to Half-Drow, Aasimar and Teiflings.
Only one who is a druid wizard mystic there?
Only one who is a druid wizard mystic there?The druid has some very strong spells, but the lack of fix-me spells like the restoration line is what kept me from going druid/wizard.
Not sure I understand this....."lack of fix-me spells"
The druid spell list is great!
Corvino, that's why I said 10 not X. It definitely doesn't get going until level 7 and it doesn't catch up to the wizard version in power until level 19, but at that point the wizard is a joke chump compared to the sorcerer abusing Paragon Surge.
I'm guessing you haven't read the new paragon surge faq/errata
Corvino, that's why I said 10 not X. It definitely doesn't get going until level 7 and it doesn't catch up to the wizard version in power until level 19, but at that point the wizard is a joke chump compared to the sorcerer abusing Paragon Surge.I'm guessing you haven't read the new paragon surge faq/errata
I read it about an hour and ten minutes after I posted, and I'm happy that the spell isn't as good as it used to be. I never used Paragon Surge in a game, but I saw how powerful it was and understood how much it changed the meta.
can mystic theurges gain 9 level spells
They most definitely can, if you use early-entry via Spell-Like abilities and primarily focus on one class. It's quite possible for a Mystic Theurge to get access to level 9 spells a mere 1 level behind single-class peers of their dominant class.
E.g. My preferred build of Wizard 3/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard X gets access to Level 9 Wizard spells at Character Level 18. Pure Wizards Get access to level 9 spells at level 17.
actually with the esoteric training thing from the inner sea you can hit 9th level casting in both sides (see my builds earlier). of course that only works if your DM allows it, or if you have the fame necessary (it's something like 45+ fame to get it and the prereq). just hit CL 16/14 and apply the +1 to 16 and +3 to 14 and you'll have boh barely scraping 9th level spells out (if you're using cleric/wizard).
of course it only gets said 9th level spells at the absolute top-end (minimum level 17 for one side, which is the same as one base class), so i dont usually bother worrying about getting 9th level spells anyway--you're probably never going to see them!
i usually aim for the opposite with wizard first--mostly because i prefer the controller/blaster allowances of it. both cleric- and wizard-centric are great once they get going though, so it's simply a matter of preferred niche.
another point to the cleric is that you aren't at the mercy of the GM for the size of your 'spellbook'