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ShadowcatX wrote:


Also, for what it is worth, the IDF has said that some of the Palestinian casualties aren't actually from their fighting, (the UN school for example, they claim their mortar caused 0 casualties) implying that HAMAS might be purposefully killing their own just to be able to blame it on Israel.

OR implying that the IDF is lying their freaking donkeys off. Your entire argument is based entirely on my alleged bias but somehow this isn't even a possibility for you.

Dear gods man, they admitted launching the shell but say its not their fault. To you that equals a false flag operation rather than implausible deniability .. HOW?


ShadowcatX wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Note "complaints about civilian deaths" by CNN as if both sides were equally killing civilians. This is the "anti isreali" american media.

BBC Gaza death toll over 1,000 - Israeli toll up to 42 The palastinians have killed TWO civilians in this flare up.

Look at that bomb crater that used to be a house and tell me with a strait face they're trying to minimize casualties.

Whose fault do you think the civilian deaths are, the ones pulling the trigger, or the targets who are hiding behind the civilians and hiding weapons in civilian targets?

Also, for what it is worth, the IDF has said that some of the Palestinian casualties aren't actually from their fighting, (the UN school for example, they claim their mortar caused 0 casualties) implying that HAMAS might be purposefully killing their own just to be able to blame it on Israel.

Considering that requires the UN personel on the scene to be shills for Hamas, I'm with BNW on this one.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Note "complaints about civilian deaths" by CNN as if both sides were equally killing civilians. This is the "anti isreali" american media.

BBC Gaza death toll over 1,000 - Israeli toll up to 42

The palastinians have killed TWO civilians in this flare up.

Look at that bomb crater that used to be a house and tell me with a strait face they're trying to minimize casualties.

I think this describes Hamas' attitude towards the civilians they "govern".

Israel is still responsible for the deaths of those civilians, but Hamas plays a role and it isn't the one of savior.


Irontruth wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Note "complaints about civilian deaths" by CNN as if both sides were equally killing civilians. This is the "anti isreali" american media.

BBC Gaza death toll over 1,000 - Israeli toll up to 42

The palastinians have killed TWO civilians in this flare up.

Look at that bomb crater that used to be a house and tell me with a strait face they're trying to minimize casualties.

I think this describes Hamas' attitude towards the civilians they "govern".

Israel is still responsible for the deaths of those civilians, but Hamas plays a role and it isn't the one of savior.

fair point.


Hamas has misfired rockets on numerous occasions, killing their own people. Hamas then gets the cameras and claims Israel has bombed a home/school/hospital. The civilian population gets to suffer for the wrongs of Hamas, and Hamas gets to use those deaths to fuel their propaganda.

Oh, and as of 2011, at least 160 children died while digging tunnels for Hamas. http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/At-least-160-children-died-digg ing-tunnels-for-Hamas-369138

How many have died digging the latest tunnels? You know, the ones that were built with the express intention of attacking and kidnapping civilians? I'm sure all appropriate child labor laws were followed, because Hamas cares so much for the Palestinians.

As for the UN being friendly with Hamas . . . do you really think the rockets that were discovered earlier this month were the first time rockets were stored in a UN school? Really? {"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!" "Your winnings, Sir." "Oh, thank you very much."}

But BNW is right . . . there won't be peace with Hamas. As an organization, Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. It's in their charter. They will not accept a truce, except for either the destruction of Israel, or as a 'hudna' which is not a real truce, but rather an opportunity for the Faithful to recover and rearm.

It's up to the Palestinians and the PA to drive Hamas out of their ranks. Given the PA's recent "reconciliation" announcement, I'd not hold your breath.


Given the new crop of Palestinians with friends and relatives killed by Israel, I wouldn't hold my breath either. Lots of new recruits is more likely.


In other ME news . . .

The US has abandoned its embassy in Libya.

1000 people were killed in Syria last week, with ISIS carrying out beheadings, crucifixions, and other wonderful tortures as described by sharia.

Kurds fighting ISIS got bumpkis from the US in terms of support, so their victories will likely be for naught.

But yeah, let's focus on the boogieman that is Israel.


Irontruth wrote:


Israel is still responsible for the deaths of those civilians, but Hamas plays a role and it isn't the one of savior.

This is international politics. Looking for a white knight is pointless: they don't exist. The best you can hope for is the one in grayer armor.

Sovereign Court

I really hate Hamas but the idiocy and monstrousness on both sides is sickening. What does Hamas think it's going to accomplish by launching rockets? How does Israel justify killing that many civilians? I'm just horrified by the whole thing.

However I just wanted to jump in here, I haven't read past the first page, but I noticed the OP said "three Jewish kids were kidnapped by Hamas operatives. Kids as in 16 years old"

I haven't been following this story that closely I'll admit, but to my understanding this was a bit of unconfirmed misinformation, the boys were indeed kidnapped and murdered, but I haven't heard it was done by anyone directly linked with Hamas. It's not something I'd say was beneath certain members of Hamas, but in the past they haven't been afraid to admit to something, and so I tend to think that they might not be linked. Certainly the right wing Israeli government likes to say that this was the work of Hamas, the story does play quiet well for them and their base, but as far as I know this is misinformation.


Officially, Hamas was not behind the kidnapping and murder of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach.

Officially, such an admission of involvment would derail the reconciliation of Hamas and the PA.

That didn't stop the PA from publishing cartoons celebrating the murders, though.


Irontruth wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

What do you have that indicates the Egyptian military is distancing itself from Israel?

I cursorily google and get, from three days ago, Saudi, Egypt and Israel work together in Gaza attack.

I note that Middle East Monitor is a pro-Palestinian publication, and web surf over to DEBKAfile, which isn't, and, through the paywall I can see the beginning of an article which starts:

"Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu was wavering Sunday, July 27, between sticking with his understanding with Saudi Arabia and Egypt to crush Hamas, at the cost of a deep rift with Washington, or going along with Kerry, at the cost of Israel's security against dangerous terrorists."

Egyptian military targeting Hamas.

Israel building deals to sell natural gas to Egypt and Turkey.

Since civil war in Syria, European trade for Jordan now goes through Israel.

The Syrian civil war has been a drain on Hamas, both politically and financiall. For one, in 2012 they started backing the fundamentalist rebels. This put them at odds with Iran, a major political backer and funder, because Iran still supports the regime in Syria. Hamas headquarters used to be located in Damascus, but had to relocate to Qatar. They've since worked at rebuilding their relationship with Iran though.

Capitalist toady article on Egypt-Hamas relations.

Hmm. Well, a quick skim doesn't indicate any distancing between Egypt and Israel. Perhaps I'm missing something?


Doug's Workshop wrote:

In other ME news . . .

The US has abandoned its embassy in Libya.

1000 people were killed in Syria last week, with ISIS carrying out beheadings, crucifixions, and other wonderful tortures as described by sharia.

Kurds fighting ISIS got bumpkis from the US in terms of support, so their victories will likely be for naught.

But yeah, let's focus on the boogieman that is Israel.

Um, I don't know if you know this or not, but the OP is Israeli. Anyone wants to start a thread about Syria or Iraq or Libya, I'd be happy to participate.


Doug's Workshop wrote:

In other ME news . . .

The US has abandoned its embassy in Libya.

1000 people were killed in Syria last week, with ISIS carrying out beheadings, crucifixions, and other wonderful tortures as described by sharia.

Kurds fighting ISIS got bumpkis from the US in terms of support, so their victories will likely be for naught.

But yeah, let's focus on the boogieman that is Israel.

are you seriously encouraging the us to arm fighters in Syria and ISIS in general? That did not work well the last time the us did it, and you know it.


Doug's Workshop wrote:

Officially, Hamas was not behind the kidnapping and murder of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach.

Officially, such an admission of involvment would derail the reconciliation of Hamas and the PA.

That didn't stop the PA from publishing cartoons celebrating the murders, though.

it's Hamas fault through a degree of separation huh?


Doug's Workshop wrote:

Officially, Hamas was not behind the kidnapping and murder of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach.

Officially, such an admission of involvment would derail the reconciliation of Hamas and the PA.

That didn't stop the PA from publishing cartoons celebrating the murders, though.

So do we also blame Israel for the palastinian boy that was taken and burned in revenge? Willing to bet some of those people had some ties to the IDF

Spoiler:
Mostly because service is compulsory over there unless you're hasidic/ultra orthadox isn't it?

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:


Also, for what it is worth, the IDF has said that some of the Palestinian casualties aren't actually from their fighting, (the UN school for example, they claim their mortar caused 0 casualties) implying that HAMAS might be purposefully killing their own just to be able to blame it on Israel.
OR implying that the IDF is lying their freaking donkeys off. Your entire argument is based entirely on my alleged bias but somehow this isn't even a possibility for you.

Dude, why do you think I said "for what it is worth"? Even I find that a bit of a stretch. That said, Hamas purposefully amtagonizes Israel for the purpose of making Israel kill civilians and thus look bad, so it isn't like this would be outside of their comfort zone.

Quote:
Dear gods man, they admitted launching the shell but say its not their fault. To you that equals a false flag operation rather than implausible deniability .. HOW?

They are saying the shell didn't cause any casualties actually. An airburst shell designed entirely to kill the most people possible...

Liberty's Edge

Irontruth wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Note "complaints about civilian deaths" by CNN as if both sides were equally killing civilians. This is the "anti isreali" american media.

BBC Gaza death toll over 1,000 - Israeli toll up to 42

The palastinians have killed TWO civilians in this flare up.

Look at that bomb crater that used to be a house and tell me with a strait face they're trying to minimize casualties.

I think this describes Hamas' attitude towards the civilians they "govern".

Israel is still responsible for the deaths of those civilians, but Hamas plays a role and it isn't the one of savior.

Ok, let's not equate mental illness with terrorism.

Liberty's Edge

Doug's Workshop wrote:

In other ME news . . .

The US has abandoned its embassy in Libya.

1000 people were killed in Syria last week, with ISIS carrying out beheadings, crucifixions, and other wonderful tortures as described by sharia.

Kurds fighting ISIS got bumpkis from the US in terms of support, so their victories will likely be for naught.

But yeah, let's focus on the boogieman that is Israel.

Let's not pretend people can only be outraged by one thing at a time. Just because country A does something bad that doesn't mean country Q gets a pass just because they aren't quite as bad.


Freehold DM wrote:
Doug's Workshop wrote:

In other ME news . . .

The US has abandoned its embassy in Libya.

1000 people were killed in Syria last week, with ISIS carrying out beheadings, crucifixions, and other wonderful tortures as described by sharia.

Kurds fighting ISIS got bumpkis from the US in terms of support, so their victories will likely be for naught.

But yeah, let's focus on the boogieman that is Israel.

are you seriously encouraging the us to arm fighters in Syria and ISIS in general? That did not work well the last time the us did it, and you know it.

I imagine that Citizen Workshop is encouraging the US to arm the Kurds in northern Iraq, Comrade Freehold.

ISIS Be Damned—Iraqi Kurds Still Love America


ShadowcatX wrote:


Dude, why do you think I said "for what it is worth"?

Because you put a LOT of stock in what Israel says and its justifications, buying into some really, really bad arguments.

Quote:
They are saying the shell didn't cause any casualties actually. An airburst shell designed entirely to kill the most people possible...

When you use the word "Actually" you're supposed to be correcting someone. You don't appear to be doing that, and you appear to be hinting at something without outright saying it. Out with it.

So why not just come out and claim a false flag operation? Because thats ridiculous with the un sitting right there. Of course they can't admit how often these things go off course, because then they couldn't use them around civilians.


ShadowcatX wrote:


Let's not pretend people can only be outraged by one thing at a time. Just because country A does something bad that doesn't mean country Q gets a pass just because they aren't quite as bad.

Tell that to the media. It always seems they obsess over War A while atrocity B is going on nearby. Not sure if that's because of limited attention span or deliberate misdirection, but it's quite irritating. Comrade Anklebiter is right though, the topic is Israel and Palestine.

FreeholdDM wrote:
it's Hamas fault through a degree of separation huh?

Uh... you could argue in that direction, I suppose. More importantly, if the murders would have kept Hamas and the PA apart, why would the PA put out cheerful murder comics?

"BigNorseWolf wrote:
Because you put a LOT of stock in what Israel says and its justifications, buying into some really, really bad arguments.

So is the problem that he buys into bad arguments or that he supports Israel?


Arturius Fischer wrote:
So is the problem that he buys into bad arguments or that he supports Israel?

Both. Its a timey whimey ball. The bad arguments are needed to support Israel, support for Israel seems to be the only reason to buy the bad arguments.

Chewbaca defenses make my blood pressure rise. I'm odd like that.


Arturius Fischer wrote:

Comrade Anklebiter is right though, the topic is Israel and Palestine.

For the record, I am the biggest hater of on-topic threads in the OTD. This is illustrated by my linking of articles about the Western Sahara and Armenian gangbangers in Syria in this very thread.

My only point above was that this thread exists and focuses on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict because an Israeli Paizonian, the much beloved Lord Snow, started it.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Arturius Fischer wrote:
So is the problem that he buys into bad arguments or that he supports Israel?

Both. Its a timey whimey ball. The bad arguments are needed to support Israel, support for Israel seems to be the only reason to buy the bad arguments.

Chewbaca defenses make my blood pressure rise. I'm odd like that.

Hmm.... so you're of the mindset that anyone who disagrees with your position is incapable of having good arguments? Can't say as I agree with that at all. I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding, because it seems quite arrogant and closed minded. But hopefully I'm missing something. When you refer to 'support of Israel', are you referring to the nation, the IDF, the leadership, the civilian population, or all of the above?

I can see having problems with the IDF or the leadership for various things they do. The nation as a whole or the civilian citizens? Not sure much.

Likewise, I can see having problems with Hamas, the PA, and the non-uniformed combatants, but not with Palestine itself or the civilians who are caught in the crossfire and threatened from both their own so-called 'leadership' and the IDF.


Bill Maher was talking about ISIS on his show a few weeks ago about how basically the borders in the middle east were all drawn a century or so ago by western powers without any regard for the peoples who populated those regions beforehand, and we're just seeing the ramifications of that play out. I think he's right.

But we have to remember that we ALSO arbitrarily drew the lines for Israel and it's reasonable to consider it just as illegitimate.

I'm no fan of ISIS or Hamas or AQ, but all this chaos is just the emergence of a millenia old religious conflict between Sunni and Shia, exacerbated by ignorant meddling. There will be no resolution until we stop interfering, and that interference includes the blind backing of Israel.

We should wash our hands of it once and for all and wait for the dust to clear.

Sovereign Court

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I just clicked back one page and found the answers I was looking for with my previous question. I apologize for not keeping up with the discussion but I came into this one late.

May I just say that as of right now the discussion seems very calm and peaceful, so kudos to everyone involved.


Arturius Fischer wrote:


Hmm.... so you're of the mindset that anyone who disagrees with your position is incapable of having good arguments?

Absolutely not.

I'm calling the arguments terrible on their own merits (or lack thereof). After long enough looking for a good argument and not finding any, you start to think they don't exist.

Quote:


Can't say as I agree with that at all. I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding, because it seems quite arrogant and closed minded.

Its a misunderstanding. I'm hoping you'll come to find me arrogant and close minded for better reasons.

Quote:
But hopefully I'm missing something. When you refer to 'support of Israel', are you referring to the nation, the IDF, the leadership, the civilian population, or all of the above?

The government (which seems to have a revolving door with the idf). The citizens and government of israel are often more critical of their actions than politicians are allowed to be in the us. This goes out the window if someone joins the IDF drafted or not. They know what they're supporting.

Quote:
I can see having problems with the IDF or the leadership for various things they do. The nation as a whole or the civilian citizens? Not sure much.

Well, when some of them insist that they need to deprive people of concrete because its dual use technology then I get a little less forgiving of the citizens.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Its a misunderstanding. I'm hoping you'll come to find me arrogant and close minded for better reasons.

Awesome! Whether I do or not, I doubt anything will make me grin as much as this comment!

BigNorseWolf wrote:
The government (which seems to have a revolving door with the idf).

I would hope so, because otherwise it would imply the IDF is a military entity not under control of a civilian government.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
This goes out the window if someone joins the IDF drafted or not. They know what they're supporting.

Aaaaand now I disagree. Conditionally. So... if they have forced conscription where everyone of a certain age has to join, those people are automatically complicit and responsible for everything done by the IDF? Or do they simply not have your support? I'm OK with the latter, not so much the former.

BIgNorseWolf wrote:
Well, when some of them insist that they need to deprive people of concrete because its dual use technology then I get a little less forgiving of the citizens.

That's an interesting can of worms to open. I wonder what things I can find that Palestinian civilians say about Israel. Pretty sure it's worse than not liking concrete. And yet, I still separate those from the ones who actually do terrible things.

Liberty's Edge

meatrace wrote:

Bill Maher was talking about ISIS on his show a few weeks ago about how basically the borders in the middle east were all drawn a century or so ago by western powers without any regard for the peoples who populated those regions beforehand, and we're just seeing the ramifications of that play out. I think he's right.

But we have to remember that we ALSO arbitrarily drew the lines for Israel and it's reasonable to consider it just as illegitimate.

I'm no fan of ISIS or Hamas or AQ, but all this chaos is just the emergence of a millenia old religious conflict between Sunni and Shia, exacerbated by ignorant meddling. There will be no resolution until we stop interfering, and that interference includes the blind backing of Israel.

We should wash our hands of it once and for all and wait for the dust to clear.

They should have listened to Wilson, Keynes and Lawrence.


Noam Chomsky vs. Al Franken: Behind the odd progressive divide between senators, intellectuals on Gaza

Sanders, Warren, Franken: Liberal apologists for Zionism.

Break with the Democrats!


Also, I saw an article about it earlier on Mondoweiss, but I have a preference for writers with the last name "Cockburn."

The Secret Report That Helps Israelis Cover Atrocities:
How Israel Spins War Crimes by PATRICK COCKBURN


And, another Mondoweiss piece:

Hasbarah Bingo

How many can you find in this thread?


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

What do you have that indicates the Egyptian military is distancing itself from Israel?

I cursorily google and get, from three days ago, Saudi, Egypt and Israel work together in Gaza attack.

I note that Middle East Monitor is a pro-Palestinian publication, and web surf over to DEBKAfile, which isn't, and, through the paywall I can see the beginning of an article which starts:

"Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu was wavering Sunday, July 27, between sticking with his understanding with Saudi Arabia and Egypt to crush Hamas, at the cost of a deep rift with Washington, or going along with Kerry, at the cost of Israel's security against dangerous terrorists."

Egyptian military targeting Hamas.

Israel building deals to sell natural gas to Egypt and Turkey.

Since civil war in Syria, European trade for Jordan now goes through Israel.

The Syrian civil war has been a drain on Hamas, both politically and financiall. For one, in 2012 they started backing the fundamentalist rebels. This put them at odds with Iran, a major political backer and funder, because Iran still supports the regime in Syria. Hamas headquarters used to be located in Damascus, but had to relocate to Qatar. They've since worked at rebuilding their relationship with Iran though.

Capitalist toady article on Egypt-Hamas relations.

Hmm. Well, a quick skim doesn't indicate any distancing between Egypt and Israel. Perhaps I'm...

Sorry, I completely misread your post.

No, so far the relationship doesn't appear to be breaking down between Israel and Egypt. The lack of partnership between Hamas and Egypt is pretty evident though. Dead civilians will eventually take their toll in the Egyptian news cycle if the military is seen as supporting Israel though.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Hmm, well, I'm nowhere near looking through all of the links yet, so it is quite possible that I am falling victim to Islamist propaganda, but I'll link them anyway:

Five Misconceptions About the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Hessam Akhlaghpour

In particular, I was interested in the assertions in Point 4:

Misconception 4. Hamas uses human shields.

Spoiler:

Israel tries to explain the high civilian tolls by blaming Hamas for using human shields. The claim is that Hamas stores weapons and launches rockets near residential areas, leaving Israel with no choice but to bomb those locations.

That Hamas launches and stores rockets near densely populated residential areas must inevitably be true, since Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth and if Hamas had designated an area for military operations, it would be instantly pulverized by Israeli forces. But, this does not necessarily qualify as using "human shields," defined as "intentionally using civilians to shield a military objective." So, for example, the weapons that were discovered in one UNRWA school last week (an incident described as "the first of its kind), does not confirm the "human shield" allegations, because the school was vacant at the time.

Amnesty International investigated Israel's previous claims in 2009 and found "no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants or prevented them from leaving commandeered building." The same report found that on several occasions the Israeli forces, however, "had forced Palestinians to serve as human shields," as also confirmed by Human Rights Watch and the UN.

Amnesty's report acknowledges that Palestinian armed groups were endangering civilians by "firing rockets from residential areas and storing weapons, explosives and ammunition in them," but also acknowledged that mixing with the civilian population "would be difficult to avoid in the small and overcrowded Gaza Strip, and there is no evidence that they did so with the intent of shielding themselves." The report also points out that Israel behaves similarly by placing military bases and headquarters in or around residential areas of Israeli cities and conducting military activities "close to civilian areas in the south of Israel."

Anyone who paid attention to the twitter account of Hamas' military wing (recently suspended) would have noticed that whenever they announced they were launching rockets at Israeli cities, they would claim they were targeting military bases. It would be absurd to blame potential Israeli civilian casualties on the Israeli Defense Force for placing military bases close to residential areas. But blaming Palestinian civilian casualties on Hamas is quite normal.

Furthermore, forcing civilians to act as human shields for military objectives should not be confused with activists voluntarily acting as human shields to protect hospitals and homes. The former is a war crime and should be condemned, but the latter is a courageous form of nonviolent resistance and should be praised.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Once and For All

This is Not a War on Terror; the War Itself is an Act of Terror
by URI AVNERY

I am bumping because a) I forgot to mention that Uri is an ex-Irgun member, oddly enough; and, b) there was an interesting quote about Egypt in here. Lemme dig it out...


Irontruth wrote:
Dead civilians will eventually take their toll in the Egyptian news cycle if the military is seen as supporting Israel though.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But Uri, otoh:

"Take Egypt, ruled by a bloodstained military dictator. He is a full-time collaborator with Israel, as was Hosny Mubarak before him, only more efficient. Since Israel controls all the other land and sea borders of the Gaza Strip, the Egyptian border is Gaza’s only outlet to the world.

"But Egypt, the former leader of the Arab world, is now a subcontractor of Israel, more determined than Israel itself to starve the Gaza Strip and kill Hamas. Egyptian TV is full of 'journalists' who curse the Palestinians in the most vulgar terms and grovel before their new Pharaoh. But Egypt now insists on being the sole broker of the cease-fire."


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Doug's Workshop wrote:

In other ME news . . .

The US has abandoned its embassy in Libya.

Libya is the Middle East now?

I could have sworn it's a North African country. Oh, look at that *points at map* it is.


Guy Humual wrote:

However I just wanted to jump in here, I haven't read past the first page, but I noticed the OP said "three Jewish kids were kidnapped by Hamas operatives. Kids as in 16 years old"

I haven't been following this story that closely I'll admit, but to my understanding this was a bit of unconfirmed misinformation, the boys were indeed kidnapped and murdered, but I haven't heard it was done by anyone directly linked with Hamas. It's not something I'd say was beneath certain members of Hamas, but in the past they haven't been afraid to admit to something, and so I tend to think that they might not be linked. Certainly the right wing Israeli government likes to say that this was the work of Hamas, the story does play quiet well for them and their base, but as far as I know this is misinformation.

Go a few posts up from yours, I have a link showing the Israeli police admitting that it wasn't Hamas who kidnapped and killed the three teenagers (aged 16-19 btw), but a separate, independent group.

EDIT: Ahh, continued reading and saw that you had found the answer.


ShadowcatX wrote:
That said, Hamas purposefully amtagonizes Israel for the purpose of making Israel kill civilians and thus look bad, so it isn't like this would be outside of their comfort zone.

You mean just like Benjamin Netanyahu has been doing for the last few weeks when he blamed Hamas for the deaths of the three teenagers and thus led to an escalation of the conflict, resulting in over a thousand dead Palestinians?


There has been another Update to the "It Turns Out..." piece:

Rosenfeld, the Israeli spokesperson, is seeking to clarify that while the lone cell did not receive direct orders from Hamas, it was still affiliated. “The kidnapping and murder of the teens was carried out by Hamas terrorists from the Hebron area,” he claimed in comments to The Daily Beast (//www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/israeli-official-at-heart-of-t wit-fit-still-blames-hamas-for-june-kidnappings.html) . “The security organizations are continuing to search for the murderers.”

But Donnison, the BBC journalist, is not backtracking from his earlier reporting:

For those asking, I stick by 100% tweets regarding comments made to me by Israeli police spokes Mickey Rosenfeld. He said it. Period. 1/2

---

I am also reminded that I haven't checked in on Libya in quite a while, and while it is a bit old, it is by a Cockburn:

Three Years After Qaddafi: The Implosion of Libya by PATRICK COCKBURN

Those who have been around may remember me yelling at a bunch of the participants in this thread and calling them "stooges of imperialism." I am not in the least bit sorry.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Noam Chomsky vs. Al Franken: Behind the odd progressive divide between senators, intellectuals on Gaza

Sanders, Warren, Franken: Liberal apologists for Zionism.

Break with the Democrats!

That's... disappointing. I hadn't heard about that vote. :-/

Edit:
As for the updates to the "It turns out..." article... sounds like someone has been "corrected" by his superiors.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Those who have been around may remember me yelling at a bunch of the participants in this thread and calling them "stooges of imperialism." I am not in the least bit sorry.

I never denied it, Doodles!

(Yes, this is how I dot threads.)


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Hmm, well, I'm nowhere near looking through all of the links yet, so it is quite possible that I am falling victim to Islamist propaganda, but I'll link them anyway:

Five Misconceptions About the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Hessam Akhlaghpour

In particular, I was interested in the assertions in Point 4:

Misconception 4. Hamas uses human shields.

** spoiler omitted **...

Yup, the same Amnesty International and Humans Rights Watch investigations I linked to earlier in the thread.

It's an "easy" claim to make when you then bomb a building, destroying most of the evidence for your claim.


Arturius Fischer wrote:
I would hope so, because otherwise it would imply the IDF is a military entity not under control of a civilian government.

What I mean is that a lot of prime ministers came in from the military. Netanyahu, Sharon, Barak,Netanyahu :), Peres, Rabin, Shamir, Peres, Shamir, Peres, shamir, peres...

The military's opinion is thus very well represented politically.

Quote:
Aaaaand now I disagree. Conditionally. So... if they have forced conscription where everyone of a certain age has to join, those people are automatically complicit and responsible for everything done by the IDF? Or do they simply not have your support? I'm OK with the latter, not so much the former.

I don't consider someone threatening to put you in jail to be justification for oppressing someone else.

Quote:
That's an interesting can of worms to open. I wonder what things I can find that Palestinian civilians say about Israel. Pretty sure it's worse than not liking concrete. And yet, I still separate those from the ones who actually do terrible things.

In terms of the Israelis that hold that position their political will is enacted into policies that hurt people.


GentleGiant wrote:

Yup, the same Amnesty International and Humans Rights Watch investigations I linked to earlier in the thread.

It's an "easy" claim to make when you then bomb a building, destroying most of the evidence for your claim.

In my defense, it's a very dense thread.

And before anyone can go for the obvious snark, [Smacks Dicey]


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Arturius Fischer wrote:
Aaaaand now I disagree. Conditionally. So... if they have forced conscription where everyone of a certain age has to join, those people are automatically complicit and responsible for everything done by the IDF? Or do they simply not have your support? I'm OK with the latter, not so much the former.

I don't consider someone threatening to put you in jail to be justification for oppressing someone else.

Ex-IDF soldiers endorse refusing army service, in letter to Washington Post

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"Its authors claim that the army works to erase the culture and struggles of women, Mizrahim, Russians, Ethiopians, Haredim, Bedouin, Druze and Palestinians, and perpetuated the gaps between the various groups."

Alright, Mizrahim are another name for Sephardim, Druze are those dudes who trace themselves from Moses's uncle or something, who the hell are the Hardeim?!?


[Back from wikipedia]

Ah, those dudes in Chaim Potok's The Chosen.

Learn something new everyday on Paizo.com! Hasidim are Haredim but not all Haredim are Hasidim.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Alright, Mizrahim are another name for Sephardim

Or maybe not.

Liberty's Edge

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:


Alright, Mizrahim are another name for Sephardim, Druze are those dudes who trace themselves from Moses's uncle or something, who the hell are the Hardeim?!?

What we would call Ultra-Orthodox.

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