1. What is Vital Strike's current niche? How good is it at that?
2. What features should a hypothetical build have to make Vital Strike on-par with other builds in terms of damage, damage while moving, and utility?
For example:
A. Allow Vital Strike to be used on AoO.
B. Allow Vital Strike to be used when charging.
C. Provide full attacks with Vital Strike a benefit.
3. Would any of these features take Vital Strike overboard?
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1. Its current niche is to make giant dinosaurs (or druids wildshaped into them) scarier, because (a) it's based on damage dice, and (b) it doesn't work with anything else.
2. Wild shape and strong jaw.
3. None of them would.
My suggestions: During any round in which you make only a single melee attack, for whatever reason, Vital Strike deals an additional 2d6 precision damage (does not multiply on a crit). If your BAB is +11 or higher, the bonus damage increases to 4d6, and to 6d6 if your BAB is +16 or higher.
Then it's useful for almost any build, not just a druid, and it can be used with charges and spring attacks and so on, and it doesn't require a long feat chain.
Design Manager
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I think the big thing with Vital Strike would be to make it more compatible with movement related attacks like Charge and Spring Attack. Opening it up too much more than that could be problematic; creatures with massive natural attacks or tricks for bumping the base damage die of their weapons up substantially can already get a pretty hefty amount of damage out of Vital Strike. Similarly, a Druid Wildshaped into a stegosaurus or an equivalent character build could have a field day Vital Striking on AoO, especially with his built in Trip ability. I think even if Vital Strike were just available on the first attack you make in any round where you move 10 feet or more you'd see its usefulness increase by a fair margin.
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If you just want to make it cheaper, just have vital, improved, and greater vital strike combined into one feat.
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total. At BAB +11 Roll the dice for the attack thrice. At BAB +16 roll the dice for the attack in tetrad.
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Overall, I still feel the biggest issue with Vital Strike is how it works, not when it works. Making the bonus damage a flat bonus (or, better yet, one that scales with # of iterative attacks), as opposed to one based on damage dice, would move it from obscure niche feat into something more people might actually take.
Allowing it to work on a charge, or when spring attacking, would be great, but mostly just gravy. Collapsing the chain into a single feat would be logical, but that's true of almost all combat feat chains (TWF, I'm looking at you). But fixing Vital Strike so that a guy with a glaive or a short sword can use it and not feel like a shmoo -- so that a fighter or rogue gets as much out of it as a druid -- that would be the very first thing I'd do.
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Design Manager
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Overall, I still feel the biggest issue with Vital Strike is how it works, not when it works. Making the bonus damage a flat bonus (or, better yet, one that scales with # of iterative attacks), as opposed to one based on damage dice, would move it from obscure niche feat into something more people might actually take.
Allowing it to work on a charge, or when spring attacking, would be great, but mostly just gravy. Collapsing the chain into a single feat would be logical, but that's true of almost all combat feat chains (TWF, I'm looking at you). But fixing Vital Strike so that a guy with a glaive or a short sword can use it and not feel like a shmoo -- so that a fighter or rogue gets as much out of it as a druid -- that would be the very first thing I'd do.
Opening it up to more classes and making it feasible for more than just colossal natural attacks or earthbreakers and double crossbows under the effects of lead blades or gravity bow is certainly something I could get behind, but I'm less certain about making it deal precision damage. That comes with a lot of baggage and the fact that the current Vital Strike doesn't deal precision damage is probably one of the only things I like about it.
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the fact that the current Vital Strike doesn't deal precision damage is probably one of the only things I like about it.
Really, the only difference is that it wouldn't affect oozes and elementals, and how often are you doing that in cases when Vital Strike is making a noticeable difference? To me, the convenience of having a 1-word tag that spares me from having to spell out "does not multiply on a crit" ad nauseum would be worth almost any price.
1. What is Vital Strike's current niche? How good is it at that?
2. What features should a hypothetical build have to make Vital Strike on-par with other builds in terms of damage, damage while moving, and utility?
For example:
A. Allow Vital Strike to be used on AoO.
B. Allow Vital Strike to be used when charging.
C. Provide full attacks with Vital Strike a benefit.3. Would any of these features take Vital Strike overboard?
2.B. Will have some potentially unwanted synergies with the already powerful mounted charge tree. However, I feel like some careful wording about forbidding multiplier overlap could reduce such a problem.
2.C. Might make it too much of a "must have" for most strength builds and the like (which tend to have larger damage dice). Still, I am not sure if I would call it broken exactly.
I've changed it to +BAB and got rid of Improved and Greater. This opens it up to everyone, rather than just the dinosaurs and giants who roll buckets of dice. And it multiplies on a crit (but then again, so do SA and other extra dice IMC). And it can be combined with Cleave, Spring Attack and/or a charge. And fighters get it for free at 8th level.
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Design Manager
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2.B. Will have some potentially unwanted synergies with the already powerful mounted charge tree. However, I feel like some careful wording about forbidding multiplier overlap could reduce such a problem.
Until the recent FAQ changing the mounted combat rules, my group had always played that mounted combatants already could combine Vital Strike with a mounted charge. All it did was help elevate mounted combatants to be able to scale at roughly the same rate that characters with Pounce or similar options are already capable of. Remember that for most characters a mounted charge caps out at the equivalent of 3 attacks, but with only one chance to hit and/or crit, with a weapon with a natural crit range of 20 and the base damage die of a one-handed weapon. Chalk 2B up as "not an issue". 13.5 extra damage (that isn't multiplied on a crit or by Spirited Charge) for 3 feats is not going to break mounted combat.
Until the recent FAQ changing the mounted combat rules, my group had always played that mounted combatants already could combine Vital Strike with a mounted charge. All it did was help elevate mounted combatants to be able to scale at roughly the same rate that characters with Pounce or similar options are already capable of. Remember that for most characters a mounted charge caps out at the equivalent of 3 attacks, but with only one chance to hit and/or crit, with a weapon with a natural crit range of 20 and the base damage die of a one-handed weapon. Chalk 2B up as "not an issue". 13.5 extra damage (that isn't multiplied on a crit or by Spirited Charge) for 3 feats is not going to break mounted combat.
2.B. Will have some potentially unwanted synergies with the already powerful mounted charge tree. However, I feel like some careful wording about forbidding multiplier overlap could reduce such a problem.
One attack at your highest bonus x3 is better than 4 iterative attacks for most armor classes, especially with furious focus.
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Design Manager
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One attack at your highest bonus x3 is better than 4 iterative attacks for most armor classes, especially with furious focus.
One highly conditional attack from the back of a squishy friend who probably can't fit or go everywhere you can go, and who has substantially lower saves and defenses.... etc. etc.
Spirited Charge is not a replacement for Pounce or full attacking. It's a highly conditional, extremely specific, excruciatingly limited way of making up for the fact that you sacrifice attack power for mobility when you choose mounted combat. Again, Vital Strike isn't going to come anywhere close to "breaking" mounted combat. All three feats combined won't even touch what any spellcasting class can add to their mounted damage with a single spell.
Lucky for all of us, there is still mounted skirmisher.
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Design Manager
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Lucky for all of us, there is still mounted skirmisher.
Which for the low low price of 10 more skill ranks than you really need to spend on Ride and a feat that's apparently designed for the Sohei gives you an option to use when you can't charge.
It's not bad, it just has nothing to do with a conversaton about Vital Strike and a mounted charge.
It is a pounce that any class can qualify for and is a must have for mounted charge builds under the current iteration of the rules. It is of paramount importance to a conversation about the viability of charge builds.
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Design Manager
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It is a pounce that any class can qualify for and is a must have for mounted charge builds under the current iteration of the rules. It is of paramount importance to a conversation about the viability of charge builds.
You can't use Mounted Skirmisher during a charge, sooo... not really.
I considered changing Vital Strike so you ultimately get Improved and Greater Vital Strike when your BAB increases sufficiently. In addition, I would rework early firearms so they have more reliable damage dice, but can never be reloaded as a free action. I would also introduce other interesting classes of weapons with strong damage dice, but that cannot be full-attacked.
In other words, I'd simply expand its niche with more options rather than making the feat good for everyone.
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The designers have said what they wanted Vital Strike to do: to provide a sort of consolation prize for warriors who don't get to make a full attack with iteratives, probably because they had to move to the enemy.
I think that goal was a good one; people often complain that a melee warrior who can't get a full attack sucks (especially compared to archers).
However, Vital Strike doesn't achieve this goal so well, due to the following problems:
- Weapon damage dice is only a small slice of actual damage done.
- It takes more feats to VS than it takes to make a full attack.
- It requires a standard attack action, so it can't be combined with some appropriate other attack forms, notably Spring Attack.
The flavor surrounding VS - "one precise hit" - means that I'm okay with it not working on charges. (There should be more fancy tricks for charging warriors, but that's a different issue.)
So what do I want? I think a flat damage addition - a hefty one - would be the thing. Independent of the actual weapon used; something that indeed makes the shortsword fighter scary.
I think making VS just do a flat +2d6 or even +3d6 on any single attack action or spring attack would be a good move. Let's call it precision damage, because that's basically what it is.
For the follow-up feats, those would just add the same amount of flat damage again.
The damage is also size-independent; getting rid of druid and T-Rex shenanigans and making halfling warriors a bit scarier instead.
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Those numbers might be useful at low level, but by the time you hit 11 BAB an extra 14 damage average won't mean much, you'll still just do everything you can to full attack at any point. 21 extra damage at 16 BAB will mean even less.
Just looking at the numbers, I agree. But what if we sweetened the pot:
BAB +6: +2d6 damage (or whatever).BAB +11: +4d6, and can activate one effect (feat, item property) that normally triggers only on a crit.
BAB +16: +6d6, and can activate two effects that normally trigger only on a crit.
Thoughts?
I'm sold on the last one. What about outright increasing crit range?
Hm, we should really ask if crit fiends really need a special strike. After all, we don't want them to stop using PA or PS.
Ok, so thematically going for a vital strike -- how about giving it the same effects it has now but also adding:
"Whenever you successfully deal Vital Strike damage, until the end of your next round you gain +3 circumstance bonus to combat maneuvers on that target and a +3 circumstance bonus to resist combat maneuvers from that target."
It would grow with BAB until it becomes +9/+9 to resist and perform. That way, Vital Strike gets a clear niche: the thing you do before you get that vital CM in.
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I'm not a fan of increasing crits through Vital Strike.
I am pretty much sold on having things like Blinding Critical activate on a crit OR on a Vital Strike, though. That way a high-level fighter can be a mobile debuffer instead of a guy who just stands around full-attacking.
Status effects are far more interesting and versatile than more damage.
It is a pounce that any class can qualify for and is a must have for mounted charge builds under the current iteration of the rules. It is of paramount importance to a conversation about the viability of charge builds.You can't use Mounted Skirmisher during a charge, sooo... not really.
I am pretty sure you can since you--the character--are not charging. Your mount is charging and the rider is benefiting from the charge. I refuse to invest the effort to find the errata, though.