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So, the "Multitude of Talents" ability from the Evangelist PrC gives you a +4 sacred (or profane) bonus on any skill which you can use untrained and which you have no ranks in.
The "Breadth of Experience" feat (restricted to older characters & races) gives you a +2 bonus on Knowledge and Profession checks, and allows you to make those checks untrained. See where I'm going with this, yes?
Combine the two, and you've got 6+WIS bonus on *every* profession skill, without spending any ranks, as well as 6+INT on every knowledge skill and 4+INT on every Craft skill, again, without spending any ranks. That's not including any bonuses you could get from tools, or from items that grant you bonuses to all skills (i.e. luckstone, some ioun stones, etc.)
For extra crazy, have a LN or N character, and make your Deific Obedience to Irori. You can then net another +4 profane bonus on all knowledge skills from the obedience, bringing it to 10+INT on every knowledge skill, with no ranks, and you can use them untrained.
Now, this is not overpowered, because we're talking about a lot of skills that are generally regarded as useless, but it is super fun to imagine this character! He can literally do *any* mundane job in the world, and do it well!
Any ways to pump all these skills higher that I haven't thought of?
I don't think "capping out" is a problem with profession skills, though. The idea is just a fun one where this guy can do any job, anywhere. There are no DC 30 profession checks.
As far as knowledge, yes, at higher levels if you wanted to remain competitive in identifying monsters, you'd have to actually invest skill points in a few knowledge skills of choice. Then again, possibly not, depending on the build.
If a wizard, your high INT along with a few 2500 gp Ioun Stones (for a +5 Competence bonus per knowledge) will mean you can remain reasonably good at all knowledge skills into high levels. Though, you'd still probably pick one or two to invest ranks in.
If a bard, or class with Bardic Knowledge, this combination would likely mean that you never needed to put ranks into knowledge skills.
If an Inquisitor, the 10+INT+WIS on every knowledge to identify monsters will get you a very long way.
Or, take Kirin Style path, get +2 to identify monsters, and take 10 on all knowledge checks to identify monsters.
That being said, this isn't meant to be a power-gaming combination, just a fun RP one.
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The "Breadth of Experience" feat (restricted to older characters & races) gives you a +2 bonus on Knowledge and Profession checks, and allows you to make those checks untrained. See where I'm going with this, yes?
Human with Improved Improvisation gets +4 to all skills with no skill ranks and can use skills untrained.
If mythic, add Master Dilettante for a competence bonus equal to your tier.
For a mere 3 feats and a mythic ability, my fighter can beat the bard at trivial pursuit.
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If you play a bard, you can get an additional +1/2 level on all knowledge checks. Add on the Dilettante feat for an extra +2 on all the ones you have 1-5 ranks in. Sure, by level 20, some knowledges will be out of your normal reach, but that is where your ability to take 20 comes in handy. I made a bard like this who just took 10 on every knowledge check and knew more than the sorcerer who put full ranks into knowledge (arcana). Of course that sorcerer deserved what he got for being a better party face than my previous rogue.
Nice! Thanks! Ok, so, Half-Elf, then. He'll have to be "old", so that he's over 100. LN. wizard 5 / evangelist 5
25pt. Str 11 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 8
Elf&Old Str 8 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 20 Wis 14 Cha 10
Levels Str 8 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 22 Wis 14 Cha 10
Enhance Str 8 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 24 Wis 14 Cha 10 (based on NPC wealth)
Gets Fast Learner, Breadth of Experience, Improvisation, Improved Improvisation, Deific Obedience (Irori) as five feats.
That's +8 to any skill which you have no ranks in, as well as an additional +6 to knowledges, and a +2 to professions.
So, with no ranks:
14+INT for knowledge skills
10+WIS for profession skills
8+INT for craft skills
8+ability for any other skills with no ranks.
Can do *any* skill untrained. Enough to maximize 11 skills with ranks besides. Probably Spellcraft, Perception, Sense Motive, UMD, and a few others.
This guy is far from optimal (in particular, the three feat chain to get to Improved Improvisation is not worth it), but he is also fantastic. I will definitely be making this guy for an NPC =D
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Dilletante is another good option, thanks for pointing that out. If you put exactly five ranks in a knowledge skill, assuming it's a class skill, you'll get:
5 + 2 from dilletante + 4 from Deific Obedience + 2 from Breadth of Knowledge + 3 training bonus = 16+INT, which can definitely keep you competitive at high levels, either as a bard, or as an INT-based class.
A build closer to optimal, then, probably involves Dilletante & Breadth of Knowledge as feats. You lose the ability to do all skills untrained, but since Evangelist lets you pick any two skills to be class skills, it's not a big loss.
So, Wizard 5 / Evangelist 5
LN Elf
Age: Middle-aged.
25 pt-buy: Str 9 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 17 Wis 13 Cha 7
Middle-aged & Elf: Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 14 Cha 8
Levels: Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 22 Wis 14 Cha 8
Enhance: Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 24 Wis 14 Cha 8
(assuming only a +2 INT item as equipment; would be better for a PC)
Feats: Breadth of Knowledge, Deific Obedience, Dilletante, Scribe Scroll, one bonus wizard feat, two feats of choice.
Skills: 5 ranks into every knowledge skill (50 ranks)
60 ranks remaining. Probably max spellcraft, Perception, UMD, linguistics, sense motive & one other.
Skills
All knowledges: 5 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 7 + 3 = +23
Profession skills 0 + 2 + 4 + 2 = +8
Craft skills 0 + 4 + 7 = +11
dot for future
Dotted. One of these guys is now an npc in my setting.
honestly picturing this is actually kind of priceless...
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I'm basically picturing this guy with half-elf ears now.
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Yeah, thinking about it more,
1: Breadth of Experience
3: Deific Obedience (Irori)
5: Dilettante
is definitely the way to go, as it will keep you awesome at knowledge checks all the way to level 10, as opposed to being awesome at knowledge checks once you hit level 10. You can always leave the 4 "minor" knowledge skills at 0 ranks, though, and wait to be good at them until level 10.
Then, at level 10, when you get Multitude of Talents, you get to be awesome at many other things, too.
A wizard 5/evangelist 5 built this way can handle for the party: ALL knowledge skills, can UMD any wand 100% (make UMD a class skill via Evangelist, and take the social trait that lets you use intelligence for any charisma based skill), Perception (a class skill from Evangelist), AND still have a TON of skill points left for whatever is needed. He won't be optimal at being a face, but anything else he should be able to handle, between the boat-load of skill points, and he has one more free class skill of choice from the Evangelist. PLUS the fun of being able to do any profession or craft skill as a bonus.
PLUS, he casts as a 9th level wizard, which never hurts =D. Take the Magical Knack trait to keep full caster level, if desired.
I really want to play this character, now =D
I'm basically picturing this guy with half-elf ears now.
Haha, that's awesome. Perfect.
Evangelist is pretty amazing if used properly.
How did you get the +2 to Craft checks? Breadth of Experience and Ki Mystic should be +4 knowledge, +2 Profession, right?
He won't be optimal at being a face, but anything else he should be able to handle...
I don't know. With the Student of Philosophy trait, they could be quite the decent talker as well. For the most part at least.
If the Tireless Logic trait wasn't in the same trait category, things could have gotten interesting. Well... more interesting.
Student of Philosophy is nice indeed, but I think I'd rather use the social trait for Clever Wordplay for UMD, leaving the magic trait open to Magical Knack. If your party really needed a face, though, your suggestion would be better indeed.
Interesting idea here, OP!
At Cao Phen:
Interesting. The Noble Scion feat is nice, but not worth boosing Cha for the Wizard/Evangelist build, at least. Your build is superior for most knowledges, but it doesn't have that nice Master-of-all-Trades bonus that I like about this one :)
Why not both?
With Pragmatic Activator you get intelligence to UMD instead of Charisma and it's a magic trait. So you could do that and Student of Philosophy.
Edited: Missed the Magical Knack part somehow haha. So. Just giving options at this point... Don't look at the man behind the curtain!
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Third Mind: Because the I can't get the Magical Knack trait, which keeps my caster level full. It depends on what you want to do with the character, though.
Okay, I more-or-less stat-ed out a full build for a Wizard (Diviner) 5 / Evangelist 5, servant of Irori. I'm sure there is better min-maxing I could do with equipment, but I didn't want to spend all day on it:
"The Most Interesting Elf in the World"
Wizard (Diviner [Foresight]) 5 / Evangelist 5
Naked Stats: Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 22 Wis 14 Cha 8 (25 pt, includes Elf and Middle-Aged adjustments)
W/ enhancement: Str 8 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 26 Wis 14 Cha 8
* Traits: Survivor (+1 initiative, +1 Sense Motive, Sense Motive is a class skill), Fate's Favored (Whenever under the effects of a luck bonus, that bonus is increased by 1), Clever Wordplay (Use INT for UMD), Magical Knack (Increase CL by 2, to a maximum of character level). Second two picked up with the Extra Traits feat.
* Feats (in order): Breadth of Experience, Scribe Scroll (bonus), Awareness (from familiar), Deific Obedience (Irori), Dilettante, Fast Study (bonus wizard feat), Improved Unarmed Strike (Proficiency with favored weapon of Irori from Evangelist), Extra Traits, Improved Familiar (Shikigami).
* Fast Study and Improved Familiar could be easily replaced with others of choice. Even Dilettante isn't really necessary, if you don't mind all of your knowledge skills dropping by 2. Would take Craft Wondrous Item instead if playing with a GM that actually let the feat give you a wealth advantage.
Class Skills: Appraise, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Fly, Heal, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device. Use Magic Device and Disable Device were added via the Evangelist skilled ability. Sense Motive added via the Survivor trait.
Skill Bonuses (120 total ranks):
What he can do well (relative to the difficulty of using these skills):
+14 Appraise & Craft (all): 0 ranks + 8 int + 4 class ability + 2 luck. Higher with tools.
+21 Disable Device: 10 ranks + 4 dex + 3 class skill + 2 mw tools + 2 luck
+26 Knowledge (big 6): 5 ranks + 8 int + 4 feats + 4 sacred + 3 class skill + 2 luck
+22 Knowledge (minor 4): 1 rank + 8 int + 4 feats + 4 sacred + 3 class skill + 2 luck
+18 Linguistics 5 ranks + 8 int + 3 class skill + 2 luck
+23 Perception: 10 ranks + 2 wis + 3 class + 2 race + 4 feat + 2 luck
+10 Profession (all): 0 ranks + 2 wis + 2 feat + 4 class ability + 2 luck. Can use untrained; higher with mundane skill items.
+22 Sense Motive: 10 ranks + 2 wis + 3 class + 1 trait + 4 feat + 2 luck
+23 Spellcraft: 10 ranks + 8 int + 3 class + 2 luck (+2 more racial for identifying items)
+23 UMD: 10 ranks + 8 int + 3 class + 2 luck
What he's okay at:
+16 Acrobatics: 10 ranks + 4 dex + 2 luck
+14 Diplomacy: 10 ranks - 1 cha + 3 class skill + 2 luck
+10 Heal: 0 ranks + 2 wis + 4 class ability + 2 luck + 2 healer's kit
+10 Escape Artist, Fly, Ride: 0 ranks + 4 dex + 4 class ability + 2 luck
+16 Stealth: 10 ranks + 4 dex + 2 luck
What he's mediocre at:
+5 Bluff, Climb, Disguise, Intimidate, Perform, Swim: 0 ranks - 1 cha/str + 4 class ability + 2 luck
+7 Sleight of Hand: 1 rank + 4 dex + 2 luck (need one rank here to do it at all, so he can do card tricks, but not worth maxing)
+8 Survival: 0 ranks + 2 wis + 4 class ability + 2 luck
What he can't do at all: Handle Animal
Languages: Common, Elven, +14 more (8 int, 5 linguistics, 1 class feature).
Casting: As a 9th level wizard, with CL 10. Speciality: Divination. Opposed schools: Necromancy & Evocation (or other two of choice)
Initative: +4 dex +1 trait +4 class ability (diviner) = +9
HP: 27 wizard (including favored class), 25 Evangelist, 20 constitution = 72.
AC: 10 + 1 dodge + 2 luck + 4 dex + 4 armor (mage armor) +1 deflection = 24. 28 w 'shield' spell, if desired.
CMD: 10 + 5 BAB + 4 dex - 1 str + 2 luck + 1 dodge +1 deflection = 22. (bad, as usual for a wizard)
Attack with Longbow: +5 BAB + 4 DEX + 1 MW = +10 (bad, as usual for a wizard)
Fort 2 + 2 con + 2 luck + 2 resistance = +8 (bad, as usual for a wizard)
Ref 4 + 4 dex + 2 luck + 2 resistance = +12 (okayish)
Will 5 + 2 wis + 2 luck + 2 resistance = +11 (okayish)
Other special talents:
Forewarned: Always act in suprise round, +1/2 wizard level on initiative.
Prescience: 3+int bonus/day, roll a d20 at start of turn as free action. You may choose at any point that round, before start of your next turn, to use that roll in place of a roll you are required to make.
Foretell: wizard level rounds per day +2 luck aura. Not very good, cause it requires a standard action to activate.
Expansive Knowledge (Sp): identify 3/day, fox’s cunning 2/day, OR secret page 1/day.
Items (62,000)
16,000 Headband +4 Int
10,000 Belt +2 Dex, +2 Con
20,000 Luckstone
5,000 Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (+1 luck AC, negate one critical hit or sneak attack per day)
4,000 Cloak of Resistance +2
2,000 Ring of Deflection +1
2,000 Handy Haversack
3,000 remaining for a MW longbow, a wand or two, spellbook, and a boatload of mundane equipment.
There are no DC 30 profession checks.
challenge_accepted.png
An opposed Profession: Lawyer check when negotiating an infernal contract.There are no DC 30 profession checks.challenge_accepted.png
Devils fear this lawyer, and will never perform a contract with him if they could help it.
Just realized that this guy should be using the Scroll Scholar wizard archetype.
The character should be a Bard, with Pageant of the Peacock so he can use Bluff for every INT skill.
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The character should be a Bard, with Pageant of the Peacock so he can use Bluff for every INT skill.
Did he remember to put skill points into Swim, or is he going to bluff the ocean floor?
We are talking a character proficient in EVERYTHING, not just knowledge skills. ALL professions, ALL crafts, ALL performance types, ALL skills.
And it's not about being "the best", it is about being the most diverse while still having sufficient skill to succeed.
Dotting for interest.
I think if one were *only* interested in skills, then Bard / Evangelist would be something to consider. It's not immediately obvious, though, because the Bard would have a much lower intelligence. One of the amazing things about Wizard/Evangelist, is that, after level 5, you're getting 6+INT skills a level, with the intelligence bonus of a wizard. It's not clear that the Bard's Versatile Performance makes up for that difference to a sufficient degree. At character level 10, you'll only have two versatile performances, which is equivalent to getting two free skills maxed.
Were there an int-based bard, then that would be king.
What fascinates me about the Wizard 5 / Evangelist 5, however, is that it can be an amazing skill monkey *and* cast as a 9th level wizard. That's a powerful, and interesting, combination.
I'm also currently working on stat-ing this guy out at level 20. Wizard (Scroll Scholar) 6 / Evangelist 10 / Monk (Sohei) 1 / Pathfinder Field Agent 1 / Loremaster 2
Every skill is a class skill, spell slots as an 18th level wizard with caster level 20. As is the case with building any character at level 20, it's an exercise in pointlessness, but still fun :)
Note that you can enter Evangelist at level 4 if you have a 3rd level SLA - aasimar Daylight or Divination wizard both work, as well as a number of other options.
Wizard 3 / Evangelist X is a pretty amazing skill monkey.
The character should be a Bard, with Pageant of the Peacock so he can use Bluff for every INT skill.Did he remember to put skill points into Swim, or is he going to bluff the ocean floor?
We are talking a character proficient in EVERYTHING, not just knowledge skills. ALL professions, ALL crafts, ALL performance types, ALL skills.
And it's not about being "the best", it is about being the most diverse while still having sufficient skill to succeed.
Uh... there's no reason you can't combine Pageant of the Peacock with the above options, and its certainly the easiest way to get literally all crafts at an absurd number, higher knowledge then the above provides to...
Please kindly check your facts before posting.
Ah, the big disadvantage to your suggestion, though, is that Pageant of the Peacock takes a standard action to activate (and a use of bardic music, though that's not so big a deal). Standard action to identify a monster in battle isn't ideal, to say the least.
Plus, dancing gracefully in order to identify a monster is thematically off-putting =D.
Can you think of an easier way to get a higher bonus to all crafts (including Craft: Bastetweaver)? Or Appraise? Or Spellcraft? Seems perfect for what you are going for here since the bonus will easily beat out all the ones you have up there if you just put points in Bluff for literally all of the INT skills. Also you would be a Bard and could take advantage of skill boosting/replacing spells and Versatile Performance.
I'm sure this would vary from DM to DM, but there's no way I would allow a player to use that for something like Craft or Spellcraft checks to make items. Because, although you make only one roll, you're effectively using those skills over hours and hours, not within the window of Pageant of the Peacock.
Second, a character that needs a standard action to identify monsters in combat is effectively *not* filling the party role of a monster-identifier. Or, at least, he's much worse at anything else.
Third, and this is just a personal thing, but the idea of that feat is thematically very off-putting. He can identify monsters and spells by... faking a waltz? A lot of those Bardic Masterpieces are absurd. If I were to allow this feat at all in my games, I would follow the theme, and what I believe to be the intent: it would let you *fake* knowing a lot about something, and convince others of your knowledge for int-skills, but not actually coming up with useful knowledge.
Versatile performance says: "He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills."
Pageant of the Peacock says:
"For the duration of the effect, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks, and may attempt a Bluff check in place of an Intelligence check or Intelligence-based skill check."
I think the difference in wording is telling. It doesn't say you can use your bluff bonus in place of your knowledge bonus. It says you can make a Bluff check. A bluff check doesn't identify things. You could use it to "fake it", essentially. That makes sense, both power wise and thematically.
Ok, except it actually lets you use Bluff in place of the check. So said Pageantry would actually get you the information. (Or get you out of a Maze spell better then any other character in the game... ACES!) The character fakes intelligence by pulling together a lot of book learning into something that looks very much like the correct answer. Makes sense to me. Seems like exactly how Ulysses Everett McGill made it through O Brother, Where Art Thou?. Hell he probably has Skill Focus Bluff and a Bluff boosting trait to go along with it.
Versatile performance says: "He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills."
Pageant of the Peacock says:
"For the duration of the effect, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks, and may attempt a Bluff check in place of an Intelligence check or Intelligence-based skill check."I think the difference in wording is telling. It doesn't say you can use your bluff bonus in place of your knowledge bonus. It says you can make a Bluff check. A bluff check doesn't identify things. You could use it to "fake it", essentially. That makes sense, both power wise and thematically.
That makes 0 sense. If I need to make a Knowledge Check, say to find information about Thassilon, this lets me us Bluff in place of that. Because the result of passing the check is "You know X about Thassilon." Pageant actually gets you the knowledge.
Your interpretation is a valid one per RAW, but I believe mine is too, based on the wording. I would never allow your interpretation as a DM, especially if I stopped to think about the power level involved for a moment (getting out of a maze I've got no issue with, though). Beyond that, we may have to respectfully agree to disagree :)
Regardless, the character I'm envisioning actually knows his stuff, as opposed to just faking it; I appreciate the suggestion.
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Your interpretation is a valid one per RAW, but I believe mine is too, based on the wording. I would never allow your interpretation as a DM, especially if I stopped to think about the power level involved for a moment (getting out of a maze I've got no issue with, though). Beyond that, we may have to respectfully agree to disagree :)
Regardless, the character I'm envisioning actually knows his stuff, as opposed to just faking it; I appreciate the suggestion.
No... there is really only one RAW way to interpret that. If you are asked to make a Knowledge Check in order to determine X, and you Pageant of the Peacock to replace that roll with a Bluff on, success allows you to determine X. It's very cut and dry.
I liked you better when you made arguments and not personal attacks Artanthos. I go by the rules and the rules for Pagaent of the Peacock are pretty straightforward. Ignoring something because you don't like it the worst kind of logic.
Agree to disagree, again. You could likely find some DMs that would allow your interpretation of Pageant, but I'm not interested. I appreciate the suggestion.
I have a level 5 human wizard in PFS with Fast Learner. I am tempted to go for it and switch over to Evangelist, picking up Improvisation at 7th level. I can change him to slow progression at that point and still have plenty of play time with him.
You have Deific Obedience?
Agree to disagree, again. You could likely find some DMs that would allow your interpretation of Pageant, but I'm not interested. I appreciate the suggestion.
Just that you and most other GMs would house-rule this does not change the fact that Anzyr is right in pointing out that RAW it works.
How viable are
1- using skill focus feats?
2- using a synthesist summoner with 'skilled' evolutions(+8 to a skill)?
On a slightly different note, I think 'the most interesting man in the world' probably has relatively high charisma...And also be a gnome. There's an alt racial attribute that lets them learn two languages per linguistic rank.