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The rules for create demiplane, lesser states:
"As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane. The creature may resist with a Will saving throw. An ejected creature goes to the closest plane to your demiplane (usually the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane, but if you cast this spell on the Material Plane, the creature is sent to the Material Plane)."
So where exactly does an ejected creature go?
a) point from which the creature entered the plane
b) point at which the spell was cast
c) ejector's choice
d) Disney Land
My interpretation means you need to be careful where you create your demiplane from, and also who you evict.
~~~~~~~
Fighter: The wizard has thrown us from his demiplane! Cleric, where are we?
Cleric: We seem to be surrounded by plush furniture and piles of research material, items of arcane power, and expensive magical re-agents..
Fighter: ...ones we loot or ones we burn?
Rogue: Loot!
Bottom line is I don't think the rules actually cover what happens and leave it up to the DM/individual campaign. So ask your GM. With that in mind here's a couple potential solutions:
1) Dumps them back to the place where the caster was when he cast the Create Demiplane (Spook205's resolution).
2) As above but treat it as though the ejected creature failed a save vs Plane Shift (which means they'll appear somewhere between 5 and 500 miles from where you were when you cast Create Demiplane)
3) The ejected creature is sent back to where they were when they cast the spell needed to enter your Demiplane (which may or may not be where you initially cast the Create Demiplane spell).
4) As above but the location is as if they were ejected via Plane Shift.
5) Other: probably several other methods or rulings could be invented.
Personally while it might be a bit 'evil grin' humorous to drop them back into your prime material home I'm thinking I'd probably go with #4 above as it removes control over where (for both caster and the evicted) while not making the ability hampered as a defensive measure for the caster of Create Demiplane by dumping them back into their prime material homebase.
Actually Kayerloth, I think your option 2 or 4 is more viable from a balanced standpoint. No one would be able to control exactly where you came out and you could not turn ejecting someone into a trap.
Actually Kayerloth, I think your option 2 or 4 is more viable from a balanced standpoint. No one would be able to control exactly where you came out and you could not turn ejecting someone into a trap.
Yep, I also think a Plane Shift vs a Teleport effect (even if you were to treat it as an auto Mishap result etc.) makes more sense thematically given how the Create Lesser Demiplane describes how the caster and company may initially enter the demiplane.
What bother me about the random ejection is that it really limits the usefulness of the spell. I always assumed that the purpose of the spell was along the lines of a high level camping spell like rope trick, but if you are going to be shunted out hundreds of miles from where you started, that won't work. What else would you do with the spell?
I admit I *WANT* the answer to be you return from where you entered, so that we can plane shift into it at night, and eject ourselves out when it is time to restart the adventure.
The reason I don't think we can assume that to be the case is that creatures need not enter it from the same plane that they will be ejected to.
Another reason random doesn't seem correct is that it seems the sort of thing that would be in the description of the spell if it were the case. Likewise, if the ejector chose where the ejectees went, that should be in the description as well. That leaves me thinking that my choices of a, b, or d are most likely to be correct.
Dr Ray Stantz: "Gozer the Gozerian... good evening. As a duly designated representative of the City, County and State of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity and return forthwith to your place of origin or to the nearest convenient parallel dimension."
What bother me about the random ejection is that it really limits the usefulness of the spell. I always assumed that the purpose of the spell was along the lines of a high level camping spell like rope trick, but if you are going to be shunted out hundreds of miles from where you started, that won't work. What else would you do with the spell?
No that would be Mages Magnificent Mansion, it's the overnight 'camping' spell of the rich and shamelessly high level. I was also speaking only to the subject of someone who is evicted by the caster of the Create Demiplane. Voluntarily leaving is another thing and leaving (voluntarily) an extradimensional space via spells is not easy as it involves being capable of interplanar travel AFAIK. Being evicted is not generally a voluntary thing.
What can it do that Mages Magnificent Mansion can't do? First thing that comes to mind is crafting. Need a couple weeks of uninterrupted peace and quiet to craft, study or what not. It's duration even without Permanency or recast is vastly longer (day/level vs 2 hr/level) It also can not be dispelled. Only Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle or Disjunction used by someone on the demiplane can destroy the demiplane.
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
I admit I *WANT* the answer to be you return from where you entered, so that we can plane shift into it at night, and eject ourselves out when it is time to restart the adventure.
Worst case if it does randomly expel you all you would need is to prepare the appropriate Teleportation spell on top of 'evicting' yourself.
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
The reason I don't think we can assume that to be the case is that creatures need not enter it from the same plane that they will be ejected to.
Indeed it could be from vastly different (as in from differing planes) places several days apart in time (potentially relativistic time) and independent on whether the caster or anyone else is even within the demiplane when they do so.
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Another reason random doesn't seem correct is that it seems the sort of thing that would be in the description of the spell if it were the case. Likewise, if the ejector chose where the ejectees went, that should be in the description as well. That leaves me thinking that my choices of a, b, or d are most likely to be correct.
But which?
Your 'a' and 'b' are basically my #1 and #3 options.
And I agree, ideally it ought to give a bit more detail as to what happens when you evict someone but it doesn't. I don't however think the caster should have any control over where the evicted target goes as that could lead to abuse of what is intended of the spell -> sends the target to the middle of the nearest volcano, for example. Eviction is not intended, imo, to send the target somewhere specifically harmful but to get them off your private demiplane. It's a defensive power not an offensive one as I read it.
Beyond all the above there is the text in the Maze spell. It's evidence in favor of returning the evicted target to where the eviction target was prior to entering the demiplane (i.e. where the target was when it cast the spell/used the ability that allowed it to enter the demiplane):
Maze spell" wrote:
On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast. If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. Spells and abilities that move a creature within a plane, such as teleport and dimension door, do not help a creature escape a maze spell, although a plane shift spell allows it to exit to whatever plane is designated in that spell. Minotaurs are not affected by this spell.
EDIT to add:
Note that most 'similar' powers also give no indication of where the target ends up. Dismissal, Banishment, Holy Word ... all send extraplanar creatures "home" or "away" but make absolutely no mention of where they specifically go when they do so. It was not considered relevant when the spell was originally designed. I'm guessing the eviction ability written into Create Demiplane is essentially the same intent > "the unwanted creature is gone, xp and loot awarded, next!" It's going to be entirely in the hands of the GM.
As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane. The creature may resist with a Will saving throw. An ejected creature goes to the closest plane to your demiplane (usually the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane, but if you cast this spell on the Material Plane, the creature is sent to the Material Plane).
Bolded for emphasis. You don't go back to where you cast the spell from. You go to the plane where the spell was cast. That's pretty much set down in black and white.
Where specifically on that plane? No idea. Maybe you need to map the demiplane to the plane it's ejecting to and draw logical spatial conclusions. Maybe I also don't have time to figure out how to map a finite three dimensional space to an infinite one during game play (or ever, really). It's going to be a rule zero kind of situation. I vote for the random teleportation results though. That seems like good fun.
I'm familiar with makes magnificient mansion, it's a level higher with some great benefits. Using lesser demi plane for a quiet place to craft is not much different than crafting in a hotel room. It doesn't give you access to tools or e resources you will need.
Maze is an extra dimensional space, like rope trick and pit spells, so it doesn't offer much guidance for a demiplane.
I'd defenitly go with "randomly deposited on the material plane" as the word "ejected" does not give me the impression of free choice or even gentle treatment.
I think that the create demiplane spells are not intended to allow you to move from one place to another on the material plane, so I think anyone ejected would either:
A: be returned to the same place they were before they plane shifted to the demiplane, or
B: a random location based on the above as a destination
I believe a create demiplane spell can be used in place of a plane shift to move to a demiplane the caster has made and back again. You can move back simply by ejecting yourself! Even if the spell doesn't allow you to move there specifically, you can cast the spell to add extra space to the old demiplane and teleport yourself there as part of it.
Brcausre of this I would say that the spell probably shouldn't allow you to move back and forth on the material plane.
The trap idea is pretty good. I think I will create a pure water lesser demiplane and shift enemies there so that I can still collect their assorted sundries once they have drowned.... er... been heroically defeated in righteous combat.
I'm familiar with makes magnificient mansion, it's a level higher with some great benefits. Using lesser demi plane for a quiet place to craft is not much different than crafting in a hotel room. It doesn't give you access to tools or e resources you will need.
What class are you? They are both (Create Lesser Demiplane and Mage's Magnificent Mansion) 7th level wizard/sorcerer spells (with the Create Demiplane family also available to clerics, witches and summoners) and neither comes equipped with the stuff necessary to craft items ... but the Demiplane lasts long enough, particularly Extended, that with some effort you could get a workshop set up. And you can cast the Demiplane spell again specifically to extend the duration. It's effectively permanent if the caster has access to it every week or so minimum. No such language exists in the MMM text. And you are far less likely to get interrupted in a private extradimensional space i.e demiplane than you would be holed up in a local Inn I would imagine. Then again maybe the locals are apt to leave the wizard with the "Do NOT Disturb" sign on the door alone, ymmv and all.
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Maze is an extra dimensional space, like rope trick and pit spells, so it doesn't offer much guidance for a demiplane.
So is your private demiplane, the other higher level versions of the Create Demiplane family and the Mage's Magnificent Mansion. They are all extradimensional spaces. Some of these extradimensional spaces have obvious exits others do not.
As I said above if I were the DM I'd send an Ejected target (and I totally agree with Diekssus impression of the intent and meaning of the word 'eject/ejected') out via a Plane Shift type effect (so randomly within 5 to 500 miles ). The only real question for me is 5 to 500 miles of where and I'd lean heavily towards the point from where they entered the demiplane. But I'm not your DM, they are the ones (or you are if you are the DM) who gets the final say on how it works. I also admit I'd probably just look the other way and handwave the caster the ability to drop himself more precisely back at his original point of entry at least or until the caster seemed inclined to use the ejection (aka eviction) property as more of a offensive weapon than I believe the spirit of the spell intends. And again I don't see a RAW answer to the question you original posted, it's the DM's call.
Peet has an interesting point to about the ability to cast Create Demiplane and add to the area of the first (and using it to travel to the demiplane in the process). Though I will point out by RAW you can only add to the existing Demiplane if you are already within the demiplane when you cast additional versions of Create Demiplane
So now we are dealing with finite planes that are pockets of extradimensional space off the rather extensively coexistent and infinite Ethereal and Astral planes. Probably only time travel will involve as many or more headache generating (but highly fascinating) possibilities
I would say any movement from where you originally came into the plane would transfer to the closest plane, so if you went 50 ft north, when ejected your 0 ft north of where the spell was cast originally.
The 3.0 Manual of the Planes described the Astral Plane as "where you are when you aren't anywhere else" - so that's a safe bet (although so is being sent "back whence ye came," wherever that may be).
Mystic Theurge (Wizard / Cleric), but the class will not have relevance to the ejection point.
Kayerloth wrote:
Demiplane lasts long enough... you could get a workshop set up.
you can also make it permanant, though that also doesn't really change how the ejection will function
Kayerloth wrote:
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Maze is an extra dimensional space, like rope trick and pit spells, so it doesn't offer much guidance for a demiplane.
So is your private demiplane, the other higher level versions of the Create Demiplane family and the Mage's Magnificent Mansion. They are all extradimensional spaces. Some of these extradimensional spaces have obvious exits others do not.
Lesser demi-plane is a whole other plane, suspended in the astral or etheral plane. Extra dimensional spaces are not. The spells are very different. You can plane shift into a demiplane, you can not plane shift into a rope trick or maze.
What I am seeing is that there is no official rule and no general consensus, so I have to assume that ejected creatures go to Disney Land.
A Space or not a space - Demiplane, Mansion, Maze, Pit and Rope Trick (etc):
tangent on extradimensional ummm 'stuff':
Saying it is not an extradimensional space is potentially rather semantic if otherwise accurate. It calls itself an extradimensional demiplane, the Mage's Magnificent Mansion is called an extradimensional mansion, Maze calls itself an extradimensional labyrinth and Create Pit uses the term extradimensional hole. I'm going to go out on a limb and say all these extradimensional 'places' are what the Rope Trick spell is calling the 'usual multiverse of extradimensional spaces" (which it then annoyingly calls itself outside of ... really? really! Fun with cosmology 'spaces', and fanciful descriptive 'fluff?' text.
You potentially could attempt to Plane Shift into the space created by the Rope Trick spell (bolding mine). I'm just glad it didn't call itself an extradimensional non-space :p
CRB Rope Trick wrote:
... The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the usual multiverse of extradimensional spaces. Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. ...
It's fairly clear, I think, that you can Plane Shift into the demiplane (RAI). Of course, unless you've been spending a long long long time casting permanent Create Demiplane spells to enlarge the original demiplane I don't know how the heck you can end up both on the demiplane but also deal with the random 5 to 500 miles 'off target' you are supposed to be after casting Plane Shift (except of course what 99.99% of GM's must do?? and simply ignore the random 'error' of Plane Shift when used to enter the demiplane) And Plane Shift faces the same issue if used to enter a Rope Trick for that matter (along with coming up with the correct F component, a tuning fork, rather quickly).
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I have always liked the idea of necromancers and other powerful casters storing their monstrous hordes on demiplanes, only to expel them en mass into cities at a later date. Naturally, that means "caster's choice" has my vote. :D
And why wouldn't he be able to do that? You're talking about someone who can spontaneously create whole worlds from nothing.
Peet has an interesting point to about the ability to cast Create Demiplane and add to the area of the first (and using it to travel to the demiplane in the process). Though I will point out by RAW you can only add to the existing Demiplane if you are already within the demiplane when you cast additional versions of Create Demiplane.
Yeah, the thing is, if you are a sorcerer who can cast create demiplane but not plane shift then you could not revisit a demiplane you had created unless a casting of create demiplane also allowed you to travel to your own demiplane that you had already created.
Ironically, plane shift requires as a focus a forked rod attuned to the destination plane. No mechanics are given for attuning a rod to the demiplane you have created, so how can you obtain such a rod?
What worries me about the spell is that astral travelers or ethereal beings can enter your demiplane directly. The spell calls out Astral Projection and Etherealness as effects that allow you to access a demiplane. If I was building my own demiplane I would definitely want a defensive outer layer of the demiplane, or perhaps I would nest one demiplane within another.
I don't think create demiplane lets you travel to an existing plane. Yes, sorcerers will need scrolls or something else. But then, it would be a really bad idea for a sorcerer to spend a known-spells slot on something so rarely-used. That's why you get things like the mnemonic vestment.
I don't think create demiplane lets you travel to an existing plane. Yes, sorcerers will need scrolls or something else. But then, it would be a really bad idea for a sorcerer to spend a known-spells slot on something so rarely-used. That's why you get things like the mnemonic vestment.
As I pointed out though, you can`t use plane shift either without a forked rod attuned to that demiplane. Where do you get one? How can you make one? Strictly speaking, you can`t. So plane shift won`t work without the GM hand-waving that requirement. False Focus,Blood Money, and Eschew Materials all allow you to ignore requirements for material components, but not for foci.
I don't think create demiplane lets you travel to an existing plane. Yes, sorcerers will need scrolls or something else. But then, it would be a really bad idea for a sorcerer to spend a known-spells slot on something so rarely-used. That's why you get things like the mnemonic vestment.
As I pointed out though, you can`t use plane shift either without a forked rod attuned to that demiplane. Where do you get one? How can you make one? Strictly speaking, you can`t. So plane shift won`t work without the GM hand-waving that requirement. False Focus,Blood Money, and Eschew Materials all allow you to ignore requirements for material components, but not for foci.
Presumably you get the tuning fork the same place one gets M and F components. More to the question is how you know which tuning fork to obtain (or craft more likely) as if my memory serves me it is said (historically) to be the tone generated by the fork which determines where it goes ... so there are literally an infinite number of possible forks. The game and any associated mechanics/rules sort of don't exist/ignore/handwave away that particular issue. Not sure why you think one couldn't make the correct tuning fork however. GM fires up his imagination and generates appropriate skill check(s) or other mechanic(s). Mine would involve Knowledge(Arcana) and/or Knowledge(Planes) most likely.
As for invaders coming in via Etherealness or Astral Travel that is presumable the most common reason for even needing the line about ejecting a creature from your demiplane as the vast majority of invited guests within your abode are probably not really plotting to take over your demiplane and suddenly need ejecting. Fashion your demiplane's interior with this in mind. Be careful to check whether nesting a demiplane within another is feesible for your GM ... it gets into how an extradimensional space acts within another extradimensional space aka the whole Bag of Holding with a Handy Haversack conundrum:
Magic Item, CRB wrote:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.
And before anyone pops in and says 'but a demiplane is not an extradimensional space' I give you this that I rediscovered this morning (again the bolding is mine):
CRB, Environment, The Planes wrote:
Demiplanes: This catchall category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across. There are countless demiplanes adrift in reality, and while most are connected to the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane, some are cut off entirely from the transitive planes and can only be accessed by well-hidden portals or obscure magic spells.
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You can travel to your created demiplanes with repeated castings of the spell.
From lesser create demiplane: When you finish casting the spell, you may bring yourself and up to seven other creatures to the plane automatically by joining hands in a circle.
It looks like doing so may also extend the duration of a non-permanent demiplane as well.
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Ravingdork wrote:
You can travel to your created demiplanes with repeated castings of the spell.
From lesser create demiplane: When you finish casting the spell, you may bring yourself and up to seven other creatures to the plane automatically by joining hands in a circle.
It looks like doing so may also extend the duration of a non-permanent demiplane as well.
That suggests to me that a spontaneous caster who is interested in traveling to his own personal demiplane but not to other planes could dispense with the Plane Shift spell. He could cast Create Demiplane to get to his demiplane (and extend its duration) and then return from it by evicting himself and whoever went there with him. Would that really work?
Create Demiplane, Lesser
Components V, S, F (a forked metal rod worth at least 500 gp)
If you are within the demiplane, you can add to its area by casting the spell again. Alternatively, you may cast this spell again to reset the duration of an existing area to that of your latest casting.
Plane Shift
Components V, S, F (a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel)
First of all I want to mention that both create demiplane and plane shift require a forked metal rod. I have to imagine that if you had a rod to create a plane, that same rod would be attuned to said plane, thus be a focus for paneshifting there.
I would also call attention to the line "if you are within the demiplane, you can add to its space." If you cast the spell again from the material plane, by raw, you would create another demiplane. I think it is a valid argument that using the same forked rod would cause your spell to affect the same plane, but again by raw, that is not how I believe it works.
On another note, I thought more about the random ejection location and have become more dissatisfied with that idea. Notice that spell does not offer you any other way to get yourself back home. Plane shift or self-ejection are the two means you have at the level you can first cast the spell. If both methods are random, upto 500 miles off target, then how do you know you will not end up in:
the ocean (most likely)
a magic dead zone
a high security prison
a dragon's lair
etc.
Furthermore, the idea of the random ejection was seen as a way to prevent casters from using their plane as a trap. I already see the plane itself as a trap. However in the case of invasion, ejecting them via planeshift randomized location, the ejector can aim for the middle of the ocean and even being hundreds of miles off will drown any creature not able to save itself (mostly minions brought along by the spell casting invader.)
Demiplanes: This catchall category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across.
Woah. You just staggered me. I did not know that.
Kayerloth wrote:
the vast majority of invited guests within your abode are probably not really plotting to take over your demiplane and suddenly need ejecting.
Ejecting is the most practical method of sending your buddies home. You can't teleport because you are not on the same plane, and plane shift goes who knows where. That is why I think it makes sense to give the caster more control over where the ejectees end up. And now that you have spum my head about how closely related extradimensional spaces demiplanes are, I am even more strongly rooted to that idea.
addendum to previous post:
Reading your quote again I think it is important to not gloss over "that function like planes" and "a few hundred feet across." That does differentiate a demi-plane from say a handy haversack or a rope trick. Maze is interesting in that it states plane shift can get you out, but that teleport can not. It does not come out and say that plane shift can might drop you 5 to 500 miles away, but it does not say anything along the lines of you appearing where you were when the spell was cast either.
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Melvin: What differentiates a demiplanes from a bag of holding or a handy haversack is that the former is an extradimensional space whereas the latter is a nondimensional space.
Melvin: What differentiates a demiplanes from a bag of holding or a handy haversack is that the former is an extradimensional space whereas the latter is a nondimensional space.
@RD - You seem to be reading a different meaning into the part I quoted above from the CRB section on Magic Items>Extradimensional Spaces. I read that and get that all 3 are extradimensional spaces.
@Melvin - Go for it. Better yet just allow the caster and anyone else present with the caster when they entered to voluntarily exit back to where they were when they entered even without being "ejected". Just make it a one time one way trip (per casting of Create Demiplane) and I doubt any real balance issues would crop up. And save ejecting randomly for those who the caster wishes to throw out of his plane.
[Sarcasm]Crazy spell allowing the caster to create an extradimensional space which requires interplanar travel to otherwise enter or leave when said caster isn't even capable of learning an interplanar travel spell that is instantaneous, accurate and precise at that level :D Sounds like a wizard finally outsmarted himself and created his own oubliette[/Sarcasm]
Bottom line is I don't think the rules actually cover what happens and leave it up to the DM/individual campaign. So ask your GM. With that in mind here's a couple potential solutions:
1) Dumps them back to the place where the caster was when he cast the Create Demiplane (Spook205's resolution).
2) As above but treat it as though the ejected creature failed a save vs Plane Shift (which means they'll appear somewhere between 5 and 500 miles from where you were when you cast Create Demiplane)
3) The ejected creature is sent back to where they were when they cast the spell needed to enter your Demiplane (which may or may not be where you initially cast the Create Demiplane spell).
4) As above but the location is as if they were ejected via Plane Shift.
5) Other: probably several other methods or rulings could be invented.
Personally while it might be a bit 'evil grin' humorous to drop them back into your prime material home I'm thinking I'd probably go with #4 above as it removes control over where (for both caster and the evicted) while not making the ability hampered as a defensive measure for the caster of Create Demiplane by dumping them back into their prime material homebase.
Keeping in mind that the spell say "An ejected creature goes to the closest plane to your demiplane" I would use:
4 as the first option if the plane from which they have come is the closest one to your demiplane,
then
2 if they have come from a more distant plane when entering your demiplane.
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
What bother me about the random ejection is that it really limits the usefulness of the spell. I always assumed that the purpose of the spell was along the lines of a high level camping spell like rope trick, but if you are going to be shunted out hundreds of miles from where you started, that won't work. What else would you do with the spell?
I admit I *WANT* the answer to be you return from where you entered, so that we can plane shift into it at night, and eject ourselves out when it is time to restart the adventure.
The reason I don't think we can assume that to be the case is that creatures need not enter it from the same plane that they will be ejected to.
Another reason random doesn't seem correct is that it seems the sort of thing that would be in the description of the spell if it were the case. Likewise, if the ejector chose where the ejectees went, that should be in the description as well. That leaves me thinking that my choices of a, b, or d are most likely to be correct.
But which?
Being ejected is very different from leaving the demiplane voluntarily with the help of the spellcaster.
The spell say:
PRD wrote:
When you finish casting this spell, you may bring yourself and up to seven other creatures to the plane automatically by joining hands in a circle.
While it don't say anything about how you leave, it seem reasonable to allow you and your hosts to willingly leave that way and get in the same spot from which you started.
This also raises the question of where do you go if you use say limited wish, miracle, disjunction or the like to destroy the demiplane while you're on it.
Is it different from the ejection?
Greater Demiplane lets you establish a portal, meaning that by that point you can make an easy method of access (albeit a glaringly obvious one). You essentially have a hole into your little private universe that anyone with a set of lockpicks can enter.
This also raises the question of where do you go if you use say limited wish, miracle, disjunction or the like to destroy the demiplane while you're on it. Is it different from the ejection?
Create Demiplane, Lesser wrote:
When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw.
When the plane is destroyed, the spell ends, so everyone in it is ejected.
Diego Rossi wrote:
While it don't say anything about how you leave, it seem reasonable to allow you and your hosts to willingly leave that way and get in the same spot from which you started.
That seems like you are adding a lot of power to the spell. Now you have two ways to punt people, the friendly way where you have control, and the unfriendly way that throws people around the plane.
It also just occurred to me that pane shift does not require one to target the planet the caster calls home. So the moons, sun, and space between are all part of the material plane.
This also raises the question of where do you go if you use say limited wish, miracle, disjunction or the like to destroy the demiplane while you're on it. Is it different from the ejection?
Create Demiplane, Lesser wrote:
When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw.
When the plane is destroyed, the spell ends, so everyone in it is ejected.
Right. What I failed to get across was this.
If the presupposition is that the guy who controls the plane gets to decide on the destination of ejectees, then what happens in this situation? Is the power still with him? I'd doubt it since his demiplane just got blasted and reality is pulling an 'everybody out of the pool.' Does the destroyer get the ability to designate.
It again pushes towards the idea of either a totally random dump location (assuming it was initiated on the prime), or a pre-set dump location (such as say the original casting point).
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Spook205 wrote:
Greater Demiplane lets you establish a portal, meaning that by that point you can make an easy method of access (albeit a glaringly obvious one). You essentially have a hole into your little private universe that anyone with a set of lockpicks can enter.
I hope you are speaking metaphorically, seeing as the portal doesn't have to be an actual door, or even a doorway, much less one with a lock to pick.
The portal could take most any form you want: a large mirror in a castle that you have to walk through, a pristine pool of water near your grove that in which you must swim to the bottom, a simple cave mouth, a specific section of shrubbery that you must push your way through in your massive garden maze, a cliff you must jump off of (with the portal being far below invisible in the air, etc.
Nearly all of these portal tropes have appeared in literature and media ranging from Alice in Through the Looking Glass, to Never Ending Story II, to Labyrinth, and more.
The portal is listed as a 'gate' specifically. As much as I like the colorful ideas of it being a mirror or the like we're currently in the Rules Questions forum, where sensibility doesn't precisely always reign.
I was inspired by the lines about how "This gate is always open and usable from both sides, but you can secure it using normal means (such as by building a door around it)."
I just had this image of a guy haphazardly hanging a door off of a giant portal in space.
Although if you wanted to get pedantic and RAWy, a gate's expressly described as "a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter." Meaning you potentially have a very visible, giant circle somewhere in your house that's always there (The spell expressly states its 'always open.')
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Even so, the ability to build your plane however you want as part of the casting (or additional castings) sure gives you a LOT of leeway for placing and/or building around said gate.
Even so, the ability to build your plane however you want as part of the casting (or additional castings) sure gives you a LOT of leeway for placing and/or building around said gate.
Damn straight, if you can cast the greater demiplane you can probably do all kinds of forbiddance nonsense around it, have a big adamantine door for people to steal and so on.
This however, doesn't answer the question of, if that demiplane we sank so much cash into goes kaboom, where do the pieces end up.
...this actually makes me think of further questions.
Where does the stuff go? If I have the Archmage's Weekly Magazine collection in my demiplane and it goes all judgement day on me, does this mean there's some jerk in the astral plane reading my magazines like if a bag of holding exploded, or does it end up where I do?
Given that demiplanes can get pretty huge with enough money and time, that could mean you might destroy the wizard's demiplane (presuming he originated it from the prime) and then have an entire fortress, 30 head of oxen, and tons of insects dump out. Or alternatively, does it just barf into the astral or ethereal if that was where your plane was positioned?
Peet has an interesting point to about the ability to cast Create Demiplane and add to the area of the first (and using it to travel to the demiplane in the process). Though I will point out by RAW you can only add to the existing Demiplane if you are already within the demiplane when you cast additional versions of Create Demiplane.
Yeah, the thing is, if you are a sorcerer who can cast create demiplane but not plane shift then you could not revisit a demiplane you had created unless a casting of create demiplane also allowed you to travel to your own demiplane that you had already created.
Ironically, plane shift requires as a focus a forked rod attuned to the destination plane. No mechanics are given for attuning a rod to the demiplane you have created, so how can you obtain such a rod?
What worries me about the spell is that astral travelers or ethereal beings can enter your demiplane directly. The spell calls out Astral Projection and Etherealness as effects that allow you to access a demiplane. If I was building my own demiplane I would definitely want a defensive outer layer of the demiplane, or perhaps I would nest one demiplane within another.
He can use Ethereal Jaunt if the demiplane is in the ethereal plane.
Peet wrote:
As I pointed out though, you can`t use plane shift either without a forked rod attuned to that demiplane. Where do you get one? How can you make one? Strictly speaking, you can`t. So plane shift won`t work without the GM hand-waving that requirement. False Focus, Blood Money, and Eschew Materials all allow you to ignore requirements for material components, but not for foci.
Normally how do you know how to attune a rod? Research.
I think you are the maximum expert on the plane you have created, so yes, you can attune a rod to it.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Spook205 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Even so, the ability to build your plane however you want as part of the casting (or additional castings) sure gives you a LOT of leeway for placing and/or building around said gate.
Damn straight, if you can cast the greater demiplane you can probably do all kinds of forbiddance nonsense around it, have a big adamantine door for people to steal and so on.
This however, doesn't answer the question of, if that demiplane we sank so much cash into goes kaboom, where do the pieces end up.
...this actually makes me think of further questions.
Where does the stuff go? If I have the Archmage's Weekly Magazine collection in my demiplane and it goes all judgement day on me, does this mean there's some jerk in the astral plane reading my magazines like if a bag of holding exploded, or does it end up where I do?
Given that demiplanes can get pretty huge with enough money and time, that could mean you might destroy the wizard's demiplane (presuming he originated it from the prime) and then have an entire fortress, 30 head of oxen, and tons of insects dump out. Or alternatively, does it just barf into the astral or ethereal if that was where your plane was positioned?
I was specifically referring to the STRUCTURE option of create demiplane.
Structure: Your demiplane has a specific, linked physical structure, such as a giant tree, floating castle, labyrinth, mountain, and so on. (This option exists so you can pick a theme for your plane without having to worry about the small details of determining what spells you need for every hill, hole, wall, floor, and corner).
As such, it would likely disappear along with the plane and cost you nothing.
