Lore Warden Alchemist specializing in splash weapons, how


Advice


Would you build him? I think this would be a fun character. The idea is for this recluse who knows everything about everything. Weaknesses and immunities of every denzion out there is out there and he has an answer for each one. Wanting to max out damage on acid flasks and the like. Is it a good idea to go the twf route? or is that still too feat intensive. How about it any ideas?


Why not just go mindchemist?


Well i like the idea of weapon specialization.


A half-Orc would give you the equivalent of weapon specialization with your bombs at 4th level, and then it keeps getting better as you go.

The Exchange

You can't 2 weapon fight with thrown splash weapons. Not effectively. Drawing them is a move action if it's a handy haver sack or bandoleer, but there is no way to reduce it further. Not under rules as written anyway.

Also you can't increase your splash weapon damage so it's not going to scale. Your damage will never go past 1d6, not 1d6 + x. Just 1d6.

Sorry but the idea just isn't going to work.


Let's look at level 8 for comparison.

Assume something like Lore Warden 7/Mindchemist 1*.
Feats & features:
1: PBS, F1: Quick Draw
F2: TWF, Combat Expertise
3: Precise Shot, F3: Maneuver Mastery +2
F4: Rapid Shot
5:, F5: Weapon Training +1
F6: Improved TWF
7: Splash Weapon Mastery , F7: Know Thy Enemy +2
8: Throw Anything, Cognatogen, etc.
Firebug trait

*Not in that order, of course, but I discovered the missing alchemist level after writing up the feats. Also, maybe Student of War PrC).

Say 20 Dex, 22 Int after modfiers, a full attack with acid flasks goes:
(+7 BAB, +5 Dex, +1 Throw Anything, +1 Trait, +1 PBS, +1 Weapon Training, -2 rapid shot, -2 TWF): +12/+12/+12/+7/+7, 1d6+8.

Off the top of my head, a level 8 alchemist, NOT optimized for a thirty-second work day, would be something like +12/+12/+7, 4d6+6 +save vs something (from a Discovery)


Pupsocket wrote:

Let's look at level 8 for comparison.

Assume something like Lore Warden 7/Mindchemist 1*.
Feats & features:
1: PBS, F1: Quick Draw
F2: TWF, Combat Expertise
3: Precise Shot, F3: Maneuver Mastery +2
F4: Rapid Shot
5:, F5: Weapon Training +1
F6: Improved TWF
7: Splash Weapon Mastery , F7: Know Thy Enemy +2
8: Throw Anything, Cognatogen, etc.
Firebug trait

*Not in that order, of course, but I discovered the missing alchemist level after writing up the feats. Also, maybe Student of War PrC).

Say 20 Dex, 22 Int after modfiers, a full attack with acid flasks goes:
(+7 BAB, +5 Dex, +1 Throw Anything, +1 Trait, +1 PBS, +1 Weapon Training, -2 rapid shot, -2 TWF): +12/+12/+12/+7/+7, 1d6+8.

Off the top of my head, a level 8 alchemist, NOT optimized for a thirty-second work day, would be something like +12/+12/+7, 4d6+6 +save vs something (from a Discovery)

You can't draw alchemical items using quick draw. Yes, it sucks.

You need to use bombs and the fast bombs discovery to TWF with splash weapons, which means going pure alchemist.


Blakmane wrote:

You can't draw alchemical items using quick draw. Yes, it sucks.

You need to use bombs and the fast bombs discovery to TWF with splash weapons, which means going pure alchemist.

Source on that, please? Splash Weapons are thrown weapons. They are even valid options for Weapon Focus. There's nothing in the core rules or APG FAQs forbidding it, nor should there be.


the only way to use alchem itesm fast (and even then.. it's sorta vague)
Launching Crossbow + the feats that make you able to reload crossbows quicker. (i think there was one called crossbowmastery in Ultimate combat (not the one of similar name in advanced players guide) thatwill let you reload xbows as free actions or something).

splash weapons become ammo for that bow at that point, and the core book sayss drawing ammo is a free action. So in theory you could draw it ONLY to load the cross bow (i.e. you couldn't draw it to throw something, doing that would not be drawing ammo but it's own weapon-so move action)

Now you darn well want to talk to your GM about it first. Some GM's won't accept the specific "splash weapons are this weapon's ammo so it's follows those rules". Some (like mine, and I agree with him) will want the ammo in a place thats easily reachable i.e. not in a bag. I used a bandolier (which really i think, and my gm generally allows quick draw to pull almost anything out of those places). This really offsets any potential bonuses you have from being able to full attack splash weapons (though really not that big of a boost considering as far as I know it doesn't get str or dex mods so doesn't compare too much to spells or normal attacks) and allows a weakness--your covered in breakable and painful items. A sonic blast and a failed save could end up really bad for you.

Oh last bit being (and again discuss with GM) you can enchant the launching crossbow. In theory it should add striaght up to the item and (in my opinion) effect everything hit with it. So that +5 raises the base damage on the splash. Not a lot of damage but it's nice. Arcane strike is also possible but some GMs dislike it (though it works fine thematically)

In general you could use crossbows (eithre normal sized or hand) as normal weapons (note: it's certainly weaker than bows but you could build into crit shots for some fun effects. Stack on the Alchemist's guide pdf (recentish release I forget the whole name)special arrows and you can apply some neat tricks at range too. I was allowed to hang the launching crossbow on a strap along my back kinda like a hunting rifle so I could quick draw it, and my other weapon was a repeating crossbow. That was a pure alchemist build though, so I also used explosive discovery.

As for the one alchemist dip. Either straight or grenadier is worth while. Greanadier would allow more additions to your trick arrow. Fun but expensive idea I had was enchanting an arrow or a few with Anchoring and using it with impact critical feat (the one that sticks the item in them). Costy again but amusing as hell mental image

If you continue on to higher levels and you wanted more ability with your crossbow, could snag a few more levels of Alchemist and snag the explosive missle discovery. Though that damage bonus wouldn't overrule fighter's feats I believe. So it's just if you liked the other stuf from the class. (i.e. wanted to craft your own alchemical stuff to save money and wanted to speed boost and money discount stuff)

This whole set up will eat a bit of your money unless you have a wizard friend who spends off time magic fabricating tons of splash weapons or something along those lines.

Now how to add damage straight up to the splash weapons. Throw anything via alchemist gives int, so stack the hell out of that. (could use mindchemist to have mental boosting mutagen; but i think grenadier would be a better one considering how short a mtuagen will last for you)
Now I'm a bit rusty on fightersr and in particular that archetype so sorry if this doesn't click right.
Know thy enemy should be valid. Splash weapons and that xbow are weapons. but it would only apply to the one you targeted and not the splash damage.
Maybe Weapon training? I don't know of any updated lists but I know there is a "thrown weapon" listning and splash weapons are thrown. so maybe?
There is kirin style but the actions take forever is focused on one guy and doesn't boost splash damages (though it is amusing to combo with know thy enemy agianst one guy. but not really worth it's salt for this build)

Thats kinda all I can think of in core stuff from the main paizo site. I don't have most of the extra books but I went over all the core stuff (core, players guide, ultimate combat/magic, ) when I was trying to build that alchemist I mentioend before.

Things to look into that i've heard of:that recent alchemy manuel, and all those suppliments. I've seen a few feats/items from them that might be great but I don't know them off hand.


Pupsocket wrote:
Blakmane wrote:

You can't draw alchemical items using quick draw. Yes, it sucks.

You need to use bombs and the fast bombs discovery to TWF with splash weapons, which means going pure alchemist.

Source on that, please? Splash Weapons are thrown weapons. They are even valid options for Weapon Focus. There's nothing in the core rules or APG FAQs forbidding it, nor should there be.

uick Draw (Combat)

You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.

in the quick draw feat itself it specifies you can not. Supposidly this was to avoid the D&D 'splash weapon sneak attack' rogue thing whatever that was.


Pupsocket wrote:
Blakmane wrote:

You can't draw alchemical items using quick draw. Yes, it sucks.

You need to use bombs and the fast bombs discovery to TWF with splash weapons, which means going pure alchemist.

Source on that, please? Splash Weapons are thrown weapons. They are even valid options for Weapon Focus. There's nothing in the core rules or APG FAQs forbidding it, nor should there be.

There's nothing in the FAQs because it is explicitly written into the core rules.

The relevant rules:

"Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat."

If you can find a non-alchemical splash weapon you can do it (stingchucks?), but not with alchemist's fire or acid or similar, which somewhat defeats the point.

*edit*

oops, ninja'd. No worries.

Although stingchucks are kinda silly, I think they could technically work with your build yes? 1d4+1d6 damage isn't too bad, plus a low chance at nausea. By kinda silly I mean REALLY stupidly silly though...


My bad, I didn't think to check the actual feat.

But I think people are misinterpreting that line: "Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands".

There's no definition of "Alchemical Item" in the core book, no table header or anything (even the trap rules on p 420 almost, but not quite, define "alchemical item"), so you can't just say "RAW, lol!", you have to actually interpret it. And you need an interpretation that doesn't nerf an alchemical silver dagger as well.

I think it means "Potions, scrolls, wands, and alchemical items (like antivenom) are all things that might be close at hand, and would be nice to draw quickly, but they are not weapons, so you don't get to quickdraw them",
rather than "Here are some things that aren't weapons, so you can't quickdraw them. Also, arbitrarily these weapons".

Going by Ultimate Equipment, I'd say that Alchemical Weapons are in, tools and remedies are out.

The Flask Rogue was (deliberately) nerfed by not allowing precision damage on splash weapons.

*Bumping to emphasize points in edit


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Problem is there also isn't an alchemical item listing. The listings are alchemical tools, alchemical weapons and alchemical remedies. (PRD listing. and as far as I know it's similiar heading in the pdf/books http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/index.html)
So there aren't any specific category that's called "alchemical items" so you take it at face value, which sadly means any item of alchemical origin. Especially when that feat was created (core) there wasn't even those categories clearly labeled.

but.

I doubt many Gms would say no if you asked it to be allowed weapons to work with it. PFS I know doesn't allow it, and the GMs I've had are rules sticklers who wouldn't allow it.
but if it's a home game absolutely no reason not to ask if you can do it; they'd probably let you.

The crossbow thing is how I figured out how to get around RAW pain for my stickler GMs.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It really just highlights how arbitrary all these are.

You can't pull out a vial to throw... but you can pull at an arrow/bolt as a free action. Even if it's literally a stick with a vial strapped to it.


Would throw anything work with quick draw? And does throw anything make everything into a weapon?

The Exchange

No Rogar. Throw anything doesn't make alchemical items into weapons or qualify them for quick draw.

Alchemical item means anything alchemical, so tools weapons or remedies. That's really kind of obvious.

What you're trying to do is create a very underpowered alchemist. A grenadier alchemist with their ability scores focused on int and dex will do what you're trying to do using bombs. What you're asking for is simply not viable.


Rushley son of Halum wrote:

No Rogar. Throw anything doesn't make alchemical items into weapons or qualify them for quick draw.

Alchemical item means anything alchemical, so tools weapons or remedies. That's really kind of obvious.

It really isn't.

As I pointed out, it could be a ban on quickdrawing things that aren't
weapons - scrolls, wands, potions, antivenom, sunrod. Text aside, I think we can all agree that it's a limitation that makes sense.

Or it could be a ban on quickdrawing a vial meant for throwing, based on the properties of the 10 ounces of fluid inside; quickdrawing a vial of holy water to throw IS legitimate, as written. Text aside, I think we can all agree that it's a limitation that doesn't make sense.


Yeah that quick draw limitation doesn't make much sense these days. It's a thing i ask a gm when I first start playing since in general I love alchemical items and such.

The build is doable, but, the splash weapons won't be your main weapon at all. They'll be a side weapon to use. Unless you have some way to get them repeatidly at no costs and then if quick draw works for your GM.

Something I've never asked but always thought would be highly amusing is abundant ammo spell on the bandoleer (spelling wrong) and then ammo boosting spells, for the crossbow. That is the only way I can think of to use nothing but splash weapons... Even then it relies on "specific trumps general" rules.

The splash weapons becoming ammo when used (only) for the lauching crossbow. Which makes it workable with : free action ammo retrieval, enchanting bandoleer as an ammo container (well technically you could use efortless quiver instead. I just never have one).

The damage's static bonus might be a bit wiffy, but your giving up higher damage for the splash effect/damage types.
Damabe buffs: Int bonus from Alch level, weapon spec/focus, launchingcrossbow's enhancment bonuses (and whatever other fighter centric stuff that can target splash weapons). Anything that buffs damage straight up and does not specify a target will allow the splash damage to be more as it does min damage.
( such as the lore keeper's weakness ability. I believe that specifies a target. and thus would not add to splash damage)

Now this won't compare to a bow guy or a power attack melee guy, their damage will greatly out do you. This will just allow you to get some variabliity/minor AOE.

I'd go with
Grenadier 1/your fighter archetype. As you wanted fighter's feats and such.
Alchemist bombs are straight up the easiest way to play with some sort of "splash weapon" like thing. but this will letcha do it with a fighter to an extent. Just be sure to have an alternate weapon; melee and or range stuff.

Grenadier as it gives you the ability to put some nifty tools to your weapons, still nets you the throw anything and such. i doubt this build will use much poison and all.

This and the other big block of crap I posted up before is about the best I can think of

edit: Endless Ammo special weapon ability I don't think will help with the launchign cross bow. It specifies arrow-bolts. So Abundant Ammo is the only way I can thnk of.
Outside of self made magic items

edit2:
Thanks for making this thread. Explaining some stuff out helped with my own build idea haha.
(if curious) full alchemist, launching crossbow abundant ammo trick, but launching crossbow has conductive on it, so I put my bombs through it as well. Makes a nice little doom area. (Prior to this thread, I was just doing it with a normal crossbow). I'll have to see if my gm'll allow this. It sounds so amusing.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Lore Warden Alchemist specializing in splash weapons, how All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.