Drawing Two Weapons in a move action?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Could someone please clarify this for me. I have a Fighter 2/Rogue 2 character with the Two Weapon Fighting Feat and I am dual wielding short swords. So, can I draw both of my short swords in a single move action or must I take a move action per short sword?


prd wrote:
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

If you have the TWF feat, you can draw two weapons in the time it would normally take to draw one. So normally (w/out TWF), you can draw one weapon as a move action or, if you have at least +1 BAB, you can draw one weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. With TWF, you can draw two weapons as a move action or two weapons as a free action combined with a normal move. So yes, you can draw both your weapons as a single move action.


Here's the relevant rule:

Draw A Weapon wrote:
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

**EDIT** Blasted Ninjas. That's what I get for providing the PRD link...

Shadow Lodge

This is one of the strangest rules in the game; requiring a feat to draw two weapons at the same time. Like a regular person can't use both hands at the same time to do basically the same thing on opposite sides of your body.

Grand Lodge

Avatar-1 wrote:
This is one of the strangest rules in the game; requiring a feat to draw two weapons at the same time. Like a regular person can't use both hands at the same time to do basically the same thing on opposite sides of your body.

A regular person isn't a trained fighter.. This makes perfect sense. I know if I tried to draw two weapons like that without trying I'd cut myself at least a bit.


It's not much different than requiring at least +1 BAB to draw a weapon while moving. Any shmuck can draw a weapon as a move action while standing still or even draw two in sequence, taking up their entire turn's worth of actions. You require the bare basics of combat training (BAB +1) to draw a single weapon while walking up to your enemy and still have action economy left to take a swing upside their head. But to draw two weapons smoothly in a single motion or in coordinated succession such that it only takes a single move action takes coordinated training granted by the TWF feat. Alternatively, you can use Quickdraw to draw as many weapons as you want as free actions.

Shadow Lodge

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claudekennilol wrote:
A regular person isn't a trained fighter.. This makes perfect sense. I know if I tried to draw two weapons like that without trying I'd cut myself at least a bit.

If I had two swords in scabbards attached to my waist, I would be able to draw them at the same time without cutting myself - and I assure you I am no trained fighter.


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Avatar-1 wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
A regular person isn't a trained fighter.. This makes perfect sense. I know if I tried to draw two weapons like that without trying I'd cut myself at least a bit.
If I had two swords in scabbards attached to my waist, I would be able to draw them at the same time without cutting myself - and I assure you I am no trained fighter.

Rule 32: Pics or it didn't happen.

Shadow Lodge

You provide the weapons, I'll provide the pics! We can even place bets.

I mean, really, think about this, you have a move action's worth of time - about 2 to 2.5 seconds. It's not like you have to whip 'em out as per Quick Draw.


can you do it in 6 seconds? cause that how long a round is.


6 second round and you need to leave yourself time to make a solid swing with one of them.


You might be able to draw two daggers without training, but you are not drawing two long swords without some practice.

And you sure as heck aren't doing it while jogging!


Get quick draw feat problem solved. No two weapon draw ability for free unless quick draw.


Jeff Clem wrote:
Get quick draw feat problem solved. No two weapon draw ability for free unless quick draw.

Except if you have two weapon fighting and at least a +1 BAB... Then you can draw both as part of a move action, as others said before me.


Kazaan wrote:
6 second round and you need to leave yourself time to make a solid swing with one of them.

AND you need to do it while dodging and fending of attackers, not giving them any opportunities for attacks.


Innocent question from left field:

So, a four-armed creature (with Multiweapon Fighting, as appropriate) needs... how many actions to draw a complete set of weapons?

Sczarni

Normally, 4 move actions.

If they have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, then 2 move actions.

If they have Quick Draw, then 4 free actions.


Nefreet wrote:
If they have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, then 2 move actions.

Ah, but they cannot take TWF, as for those creatures, Multi-Weapon Fighting replaces TWF.

Now... what exactly does MWF do when it comes to drawing multiple weapons?

Does it allow to draw all your weapons, in analogy to TWF?
Does it allow you to draw two weapons, just like TWF?
Or does it allow none of these, as the drawing rule references TWF and not MWF (even though MWF is called a replacement for TWF for those with too many arms)?

Sczarni

The Multi-Weapon Fighting feat does not have text stating that you may draw four weapons in the time it would take you to draw one, so you must default to the general rules.

Since, as you point out, four-armed races would be incapable of taking Two-Weapon Fighting, then I was incorrect in my earlier assertion.

They would be limited to 4 move actions or 4 free actions with Quick Draw.


claudekennilol wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:
This is one of the strangest rules in the game; requiring a feat to draw two weapons at the same time. Like a regular person can't use both hands at the same time to do basically the same thing on opposite sides of your body.
A regular person isn't a trained fighter.. This makes perfect sense. I know if I tried to draw two weapons like that without trying I'd cut myself at least a bit.

A character with +1 BAB is a trained fighter. Not everything needs to be a feat.


Avatar-1 wrote:
This is one of the strangest rules in the game; requiring a feat to draw two weapons at the same time. Like a regular person can't use both hands at the same time to do basically the same thing on opposite sides of your body.

There was a lecturer when I was at university, who would try to use two board cleaners at the same time, and one hand would slow down and stop, and he'd notice and concentrate on it, and the other hand would slow down and stop; and he'd notice and concentrate on it and the first hand would slow down and stop....

So no, depending on the task, you can't necessarily do the same task with both hands and the same time.


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In my opinion, RAI is that Muti-Weapon fighting does everything that Two-Weapon fighting does for creatures with more than 2 arms. Therefore, I would allow a 3-armed creature with MWF to draw 3 weapons as a move action or part of movement assuming +1 BAB or as free action with Quick Draw.

But, that is just my interpretation of RAI.


Avatar-1 wrote:
This is one of the strangest rules in the game; requiring a feat to draw two weapons at the same time. Like a regular person can't use both hands at the same time to do basically the same thing on opposite sides of your body.

If your fighting with two weapons your going to be using Two Weapon Fighting normally...so why does it matter if it requires the feat to draw them at the same time.


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Avatar-1 wrote:
This is one of the strangest rules in the game; requiring a feat to draw two weapons at the same time. Like a regular person can't use both hands at the same time to do basically the same thing on opposite sides of your body.

Try using both hands to write complete sentences at the same time, and have them be neat and legible. You could probably pick up the pens, and even hold them correctly, but as soon as you start writing, unless you are a truly unique person, I'd put money down that your dominant hand will still write, but not quite as neat as usual, and your off hand will be pretty much a mess. Now try to write something in 6 seconds, and it'll get worse, try it under duress, and it'll get worse still. Nothing is saying you can't do it, you just can't do it effectively.

If you trained yourself, you would get better. So the feats, which simulate training, or experience, are perfectly understandable.

Grand Lodge

Avatar-1 wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
A regular person isn't a trained fighter.. This makes perfect sense. I know if I tried to draw two weapons like that without trying I'd cut myself at least a bit.
If I had two swords in scabbards attached to my waist, I would be able to draw them at the same time without cutting myself - and I assure you I am no trained fighter.

Methinks you underestimate the difficulty of moving effectively under combat conditions. I trained for several years in Kenjutsu, Japanese sword combat, and I doubt I could reliably, rapidly, and safely draw two swords while moving into combat.

Shadow Lodge

I still don't see the examples holding up.

With the board cleaners, your lecturer wasn't using the same action symmetrically; he was trying to use his hands in different ways to cover different areas of the board.

With writing sentences, this is inherently different because ambidexterity comes into it; it's precise, and again, a different action with each hand.

Two longswords don't come into it, because Two Weapon Fighting in Pathfinder is a regular weapon and a light weapon.

Moving doesn't come into it, because I don't have a +1 BAB (I am no trained fighter). And if you are, think carefully about how long 2 seconds really lasts; it's significant, not a Quick Draw move.


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Avatar-1 wrote:

I still don't see the examples holding up.

With the board cleaners, your lecturer wasn't using the same action symmetrically; he was trying to use his hands in different ways to cover different areas of the board.

With writing sentences, this is inherently different because ambidexterity comes into it; it's precise, and again, a different action with each hand.

Two longswords don't come into it, because Two Weapon Fighting in Pathfinder is a regular weapon and a light weapon.

Moving doesn't come into it, because I don't have a +1 BAB (I am no trained fighter). And if you are, think carefully about how long 2 seconds really lasts; it's significant, not a Quick Draw move.

And I have the hand/eye co-ordination of your average house brick! i sincerely doubt i could draw one sword quickly under IDEAL conditions. Two swords and i am in grave danger of causing someone an injury (probably myself!).

These rules, as with any rules, codify things so we can agree how to play, they cannot ever hope to replicate real life and the inherent variety of our individual capacities.

PS I envy your co-ordination :(


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Combat does funny things to people.

If you haven't trained to do it, over and over and over, then I imagine it would be harder than you could imagine to draw two swords within 2 seconds while you are moving.

Talk with a soldier who has been in combat. I know for a fact that the simply act of dropping a magazine and inserting a new one into your weapon while under fire from the enemy is challenging. People screw it up all the time. And that is a much simpler act than drawing a sword while moving.

If you want to get "real" then consider that your adrenaline would be pumping your hands would be shaking, you would focus down to tunnel vision where you wouldn't even be able to see or hear things that were not directly in front of you.

The fact that people have 360 degree vision on the battlefield is far less believable to me than someone having to have been specifically trained to draw two weapons while they are moving towards something that wants to kill them.

Lets not mix reality with our fantasy, okay?

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