Alex McGuire |
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Ran this adventure yesterday; thought it was fantastic.
Pluses:
The army aspect is quite fun.
An interesting encounter with a single bad guy at the end.
Troops are really cool and interesting foes.
The army combat is very well-tuned. I've ran two of the adventure paths that had mass combats, both times they ended up being duds. This time I and my players enjoyed ourselves.
Minuses:
Mostly the army-combat map. First, you can't click the map in Adobe and copy it to paint with the hexes attached; so if you want to print out the map you have to manually add in the hexes or do a print screen and edit out the troop placements. I'm sure there is some way to do it in photoshop, but I'm not particularly savvy. Secondly, the map is somewhat dull; there are a number of locations that are marked but aren't mentioned in the scenario, and of the two locations that are mentioned in the scenario, neither is really fleshed out. Third, I felt that the hexes that counted as hills were a bit ambiguous. Finally, the terrain didn't have much of an impact on the adventure; the giant canyon in the center slowed people down a touch, and the hills didn't even come into play.
Notes for my fellow GMs:
Consider printing out a copy of each of the opposing armies; if a player is knocked out let him take control of one of the bad guy armies. Alternatively, consider letting defeated PCs meet up with allied armies and "aid another" their friend's morale checks (basically a charisma check dc 10)
Print out six copies of the unique armies and the non-unique armies. It may be a lot of largely wasted ink and paper, but it could shave as much as 10 minutes from the amount of time needed for your players to make their decisions.
Take care, as this adventure can go long due to explaining the mass-combat rules.
For the map, I took two sheets of hex paper, cut the sides so that they would fit together, then drew the map on them. Afterwards I colored the map and glued the two sheets onto a poster board.
Play report:
The group I GM'ed for had 6 PCs, playing: Riftwardens, Elven Uprooters, Mammoth Riders,the Taldan army, the Mendevian Cavalry and the Mendevian Priests. The first engagement went well; the Riftwardens and Uprooters teamed up to destroy cultists on the south side, the Taldans charged the Middle, and the Mammoth Riders and the Cavalry took the north. Only problem was the Warpriests were too slow and did very little. Once the players took out each of the cultist armies, they all settled in for a day to recover with the plan of attacking the tieflings at dawn from all sides...except the Mendevian Cavalry. The foolish crusaders charged in immediately (the player had been just a tiny bit too slow throughout the first engagement and hadn't had a fight yet) and met a dangerous and entrenched foe. The high defense of the tieflings between their cautious strategy and the fortifications of the town made the tieflings too hard a nut to crack for the Mendevians, and the cavalry was forced to withdraw (it didn't help that my dice were hot most of the evening, and his dice weren't). The next day, the other 5 armies descended on the tieflings and, since they were all fighting recklessly, were able to take down the unhurt tieflings in a single round.
The second engagement was significantly more difficult. The Cavalry and the Mammoth Riders charged recklessly forward at a pair of dretch armies that had joined up (despite a hint that they would be leaving themselves in a dangerous position), then were ambushed by a pair of Schir armies. Meanwhile, the highly effective Riftwarden/Uprooter combo started working its way south around the chasm, and the Taldans headed north-northwest after some of the Schir armies. The Mendevian Warpriests decided to stay on defense; their low movement made them terrible attackers but they knew they'd be hell (heaven?) on wheels defending Silvershore.
During the first combat phase of the engagement, the Mammoth riders and the Cavalry fought two dretch armies and two Schir armies. This was the first time the PCs had been outnumbered, and they were both clearly worried. Unfortunately, they made their worst tactical mistake here; thinking that the Dretches would die easily, they focused on them instead of the far easier Schirs. My dice were hot, and within three rounds of splitting up the dretch and schir attacks evenly between the armies the cavalry were in dire straights and only one of the armies (a schir army) had fallen. A few rounds later, I defeated the cavalry leaving the Mammoths fighting two dretch armies and a schir army. The Mammoths were barely able to rally and defeat the three remaining foes.
During the next few days, the Taldans came to the Mammoths' rescue and gave the Mammoths desperately needed time to recover while taking a bit of a beating from the other armies in the area, especially the Stitched Abominations. Meanwhile, the previously unstoppable Riftwarden/Uprooters combo found themselves outmaneuvered by the Howlers, and left with two options: pursue a fleeing Schir army around the chasm, or go backwards to take on the Howlers. They decided to leave the howlers to the Warpriests and charge after the schir demons. The howlers attacked Silvershore and were slain by the Warpriests without much effort.
Then the Rift Drakes appeared and killed the cultists, and seeing another easy meal went after the Uprooters and Riftwardens. The riftwardens died quickly (though not without inflicting casualties on the Drakes) and the Uprooters were routed, then defeated on the following day. The combination of Breath Weapon and Bleed on those guys was REALLY effective.
At this point the Army of the Open Road was truly worried; having lost half their forces they considered pulling back to Silvershore. But two paladins (I let the player in charge of the Mendevian Cavalry meet up with the Mammoth riders) and the lead singer of Dyre Wulf were not about to back down, and the Mammoths and the Taldans charged the Rift Drakes. While Dyre Wulf played their hit single "Lets kick the Worldwound in the [expletive]" the three armies clashed, and slew the drakes in a single round of combat.
The rest of the scenario was fairly by the book, though the players loved the cool carved demon head, and everyone liked the troop fight. The magus at the end was a little irritating since they gave him all the time he needed to prep, but that is honestly to be expected.
Overall: I found this to be a fantastic adventure. The complaints listed above are all minor nit picks at worst and when I ran it everybody at the table had a blast. I'd rate it a 4/5.
Du Nord |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Thanks for the heads up on that Alex. I'm not running this until August, but I'll start working on things now, to make sure everything runs smoothly.
I would like to point out a pretty obvious mistake on the chronicle sheet for the 2nd boon. It's easy to resolve, but in case this is worthy of a correction.
[Include 2 check boxes here] Legacy of Porthmos (Taldor):
They didn't actually include check boxes, just the note saying they need to add two check boxes. There isn't much room in the boon portion, so my intentions is to draw this off to try and add my own check boxes, either hand drawn or with a computer program.
Leg o' Lamb |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I love this scenario.
I had the opportunity to get a trial run Thursday before Paizo Con. I cannot stress enough how helpful this was. By the end of the con I had the mass combat rules down and had shortened my "Here's how the rules work" speech to about 20 minutes. It started at around an hour. Also, I told the players the rules will seem a little clunky at first, but by the end if the first encounter they will have the mechanics down. And to a table they all did.
(Big props to Thurston Hillman for taking the time to answer my questions. He was an invaluable resource. Thanks again, Thursty. )
As far as handouts for the armies go, I recommend having one sheet per army which lists all of their tactics choices as well as their special properties. I will try to get such material up to the shared drive as quick as I can.
I am happy to answer any questions peeps have. Either ask here or PM me.
One last comment. Mammoth Riders Cavalry. That is all.
GUNNARR OSBJÖRNSSON |
One last comment. Mammoth Riders Cavalry. That is all.
TALDOR FOR LIFE!!! DYRE WÜUULF!!!! Army of exploration represent!
Although we couldn't have done it without those mammoth riders, they were proper metal too. As were the waves and waves of Andorans who volunteered to catch the arrows aimed at all my Taldan brothers.
Thanks for running a great game, Alex! The scenario is one of the most memorable I've played to date, although it did run quite long. Having 2 uncommon mechanics in it was definitely the cause, but they really helped to amp up the "epic" factor of the scenario.
TetsujinOni |
I love this scenario.
I had the opportunity to get a trial run Thursday before Paizo Con. I cannot stress enough how helpful this was. By the end of the con I had the mass combat rules down and had shortened my "Here's how the rules work" speech to about 20 minutes. It started at around an hour. Also, I told the players the rules will seem a little clunky at first, but by the end if the first encounter they will have the mechanics down. And to a table they all did.
(Big props to Thurston Hillman for taking the time to answer my questions. He was an invaluable resource. Thanks again, Thursty. )
As far as handouts for the armies go, I recommend having one sheet per army which lists all of their tactics choices as well as their special properties. I will try to get such material up to the shared drive as quick as I can.
I am happy to answer any questions peeps have. Either ask here or PM me.
One last comment. Mammoth Riders Cavalry. That is all.
I'll have my army stat block documents that I used for my 4 slots on PFSPrep shortly.
The map we built out can't be shared by us but we're going to work on that with RoboChris.
Yiroep |
I have a question about the Withdraw tactic and how it works in this scenario since it incorporates a Movement phase.
So, with the Withdraw tactic, you can escape from battle. I understand mostly how this works, but the one thing that works differently is how the army actually escapes the conflict. If they stay in the same hex, they are still going to be locked in combat the next round since they can't move out of the army's way. And if the other army has initiative, they can just lock them up anyway on the next movement phase.
So, should I run it that way, or allow them to move away from that hex in a direction of their choosing?
Just asking in case it comes up.
TetsujinOni |
So far I've run it as you attempt to break contact and exit the battle, and if you win initiative CAN exit the hex to attempt the "run far enough to fall back on allied position" (because that feels 'right' in terms of the abstraction that's in use for movement and making for player agency in the story).
Movement Initiative is rolled each day as presented, as far as I can tell.
Big thing is that the intent of the system is to provide a more nuanced coin toss in how the massive battles are being fought around the PCs and adjust the briefing that is used to introduce the PC mission. It's very much an epic, players-control-units-for-their-toss-of-the-dice-at-prestige, cut scene.
If I got parts of the rules screwed up, I hope Thursty or someone comes along to correct my memory ;)
Paz |
I'm currently prepping this and have a few questions (with more to follow, I'm sure):
P6, army selection: Can the PCs pick different armies for each engagement, or are they expected to continue with the same one (if it isn't destroyed)? The way it's written seems to suggest the former, but I'm not sure.
P6, the unique armies' 'granted army boons': Are these only relevant when a player is unable to select a unique army (as it's already been taken) and has to take a core army, or are they also added to the unique army?
P7, additional battalions of the Army of Exploration: If multiple Taldor players want to command these, is the first one of these armies large, but the 2nd, 3rd, etc. all medium (with the reduced stats)?
If the 'main' Army of Exploration is destroyed in the first engagement, can a Taldor take one of the additional battalions in the second?
P7 & 9, which hexes do Silvershore and the House of Reflections lie in? Are they the hex with the T in and the hex two north from there respectively?
P7 & 9, which hexes are difficult/impassable, or is the terrain on the map for decoration only?
P8 & 10, scaling the engagements: It looks like the first time I run this, it will be with a table of 4 PCs, APL 5. Normally this would mean playing down without the 4 player adjustment, but given the lack of difference between the tiers in this part of the scenario, this seems to penalise a party in this situation. Presumably I should run the 4 player adjustment for the engagements, then use the normal rules for the conventional encounters?
JohnF Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm currently prepping this and have a few questions (with more to follow, I'm sure):
P6, army selection: Can the PCs pick different armies for each engagement, or are they expected to continue with the same one (if it isn't destroyed)? The way it's written seems to suggest the former, but I'm not sure.
I agree with your interpretation - they are free to change armies.
If they have the right chronicle, they can even switch to a different unique army, provided it has not been destroyed.
P6, the unique armies' 'granted army boons': Are these only relevant when a player is unable to select a unique army (as it's already been taken) and has to take a core army, or are they also added to the unique army?
They are only added to a core army. Note that, as far as I can see, there is no "Limit 1" clause, so if you have three different boons you can add three different abilities to your core army. Multiple copies of the same boon do not stack, however.
P7, additional battalions of the Army of Exploration: If multiple Taldor players want to command these, is the first one of these armies large, but the 2nd, 3rd, etc. all medium (with the reduced stats)?
If the 'main' Army of Exploration is destroyed in the first engagement, can a Taldor take one of the additional battalions in the second?
One large army; all subsequent armies medium.
If any battallion of the Taldor forces is destroyed, I'd treat that just like losing any unique army; you can't conjure up additional battalions beyond the number of Taldor PCs (counting destroyed battalions towards that total).
P7 & 9, which hexes do Silvershore and the House of Reflections lie in? Are they the hex with the T in and the hex two north from there respectively?
I believe I chose to place Silvershore in the hex your army starts in for the second encounter.
It doesn't really matter which hex you choose for Silvershore or for the House of Reflection, as long as you are consistent.
P7 & 9, which hexes are difficult/impassable, or is the terrain on the map for decoration only?
The general opinion amongst the GMs I polled at PaizoCon is that the difficult terrain is the hills in the northern part of the worldwound (the Wolfcrags, basically). It would be nice if there were more visual distinction between hill hexes and the plains around Silvershore.
I'm not sure what the black area near Silvershore is meant to represent.
P8 & 10, scaling the engagements: It looks like the first time I run this, it will be with a table of 4 PCs, APL 5. Normally this would mean playing down without the 4 player adjustment, but given the lack of difference between the tiers in this part of the scenario, this seems to penalise a party in this situation. Presumably I should run the 4 player adjustment for the engagements, then use the normal rules for the conventional encounters?
That's what I would do. The scaling doesn't say "do this only for parties of four"; it says "add enemy armies based on the number of certain player-controlled armies". I'd do that no matter how many players are at the table.
Paz |
Thanks very much for the advice.
One further question: on page 11, the scenario states: 'All PCs present may attempt a Profession (soldier) check to shift the timing in their favor.' Does it really mean all, or is it only those that are trained in that profession?
Also does anyone who's already GMed this have any tips on strategies or tactics for the armies to use, beyond the very brief advice given in the adventure?
TetsujinOni |
Anyone who could normally attempt such a check, because it is a trained-only skill.
Follow the tactical advice - stack up. Stack attacks. False Retreat is terrible unless you're in a large fight. Focus fire on the Unique units and flavor the battle with the dirty tricks / reckless cultists / dretches / etc pursuing their natural enemies with fervor....
Ham up the descriptions, whatever is happening.
Expect that the troop IS a beating, and let them work out creative solutions to entry on the final phase if they come up with some.
pauljathome |
How is everyone handling army visibility?
When you are running an engagement, do you let all the players see all the enemy armies from the get go? Or do they need to get to a hex in order to discover an army has camped in an adjacent hex?
It is hard enough to learn a whole new game WITHOUT fog of war. And fog of war has to work both ways to be fair, which pretty much requires an independent arbiter.
In other words, let all the players see all the armies.
Thurston Hillman Managing Creative Director (Starfinder) |
Paz |
I'm running this across two three hour sessions as a practice for PaizoCon UK. We've had the first session, where we had the rules explanations, the first engagement and most of the second engagement.
The mass combat rules have gone pretty well so far, although as you can tell from my last couple of posts, there were some ambiguities. The first engagement was pretty easy for the players, but the second engagement has been brutal. I think the first engagement lulled them into a false sense of security; in the second, Mendevian cavalry charged a dretch army alone, only for two schir armies to join the battle, leading to the cavalry being wiped out. Further battles have led to the loss of the Taldan and elf armies, leaving just two PC armies facing ~6 demon armies, most of them unharmed. We will pick up again next week.
Paz |
For tactic/strategy changes in battle, how 'open' have people been? Should the GM keep all of this info 'behind the screen' so all the players know is that the DV changes from turn to turn? Or does he advertise the information (either by embellishing it with evocative language or just stating that strategy has changed to X)?
Leg o' Lamb |
If the Taldan Army of Exploration is destroyed after it has already achieved the necessary conditions, does the commander earn the Taldor boon?
Sure. I see no reason not to reward the player; unless the success conditions state the Army of Exploration must survive.
If any army chooses to rest and heal for a day, but an enemy army attacks it, what happens? What if another friendly army is in the same hex?
I would say the resting army heals and then combat commences. Remember, Movement happens before combat, and resting replaces the movement phase. If another friendly army is in the same hex, both armies join combat against the invaders. Once an army is engaged, it can not move to another hex regardless if has taken its move action or not.
Can armies defending Silvershore in the second engagement benefit from the fortifications that the Tieflings did in the first engagement? The 'fluff' suggests they can, but there's nothing on it in the 'crunch'.
As long as the defending army begins its turn in Silvershore when the tieflings attack, then they can benefit from the defenses. And vice versa for the tieflings. If the player and tieflings move into Silvershore on the same turn, neither benefits from the defenses.
For tactic/strategy changes in battle, how 'open' have people been? Should the GM keep all of this info 'behind the screen' so all the players know is that the DV changes from turn to turn? Or does he advertise the information (either by embellishing it with evocative language or just stating that strategy has changed to X)
Simply by stating your tactics the players will know how much the DV and OM change. The combination of Reckless and Relentless Brutality tells the players a whupping is coming with little regard for safety. Be open with the players and don't hide anything.
Le Petite Mort |
I must say, I absolutely and completely despised every aspect ofthis scenario. Here's how our session went:
First 45 minutes: Explanation of rules, not evengetting into individual special attacks and tactics. This wouldn't happen in a real pathfinder scenario because players know the rules to the game. Suddenly having another game with entirely separate rules wastes everyone's time learning rules they will rarely if ever need to know again.
Second 45 mintues: The mass combat campaigns. Eeryone in our group was using the special armies, which basically let us rampage through the entire thing. It wasn't challenging nor interesting, as the armies have a very limited number of strategic options and if you have a decent army and roll even moderately well you will usually end the battle in 1-2 rounds. Worst of all, other than your character's CHA modifier you play no role in combat. I came to play pathfinder with my character, not Kingmaker with a single stat from him.
The last 20 minutes was the bunker. First encounter was a glorified swarm (which I think many agree is one of the more poorly executed mechanics in pathfinder) and the second a boss. The first encounter did some damage, mostly I was annoyed that as all of my targeted abilities were useless. I just hid until the martials killed it.
The boss would have been cool, except it had the enormous disadvantage of a lazy dungeon designer. Two traps lead to him, and the party can heal after each if they tripped them at all (we didn't) and then the boss is in a tiny featureless room. First round started off with our totori monk grappling and pinning the guy, second round coup de grace and congratulations pathfinders.
Given that he is a battlefield commander and can fly, having him at the top of a large observation tower with some adds woupd make sense both flavorwise and mechanically. The bottom of a trivial dungeon (it was ten rounds between entering the building and dragging the tied up commander back out) was inadequate.
Every scenario has small issues, oreven large ones that with adjustments could be better. This scenario isn't one of those. Every part of it is bad from concept to execution both mechanically and story (or lack thereof). I don't think it is fixable. At least a disclaimer in the title saying it has mass combat would be nice so I know to avoid any similar scenarios in the future.
TriOmegaZero |
Yeah, and although if I had known how it would go I probably would have turned your offer down, I am glad for the experience in what to do and what not to do. :) We'll be doing another slot zero for those of us that didn't get to do the entire scenario as well, to better prepare for running it. I'm just sorry you and the rest of the table did not get the full ifrit experience that is Kane Elish. ;)
WalterGM RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8 |
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I had an excellent GM for this and an excellent author for the scenario, so with that in mind here are my thoughts as a player.
Mass Combat: Having run all of Wrath of the Righteous I'm intimately familiar with mass combat rules. I liked the simplified version used in the scenario. It really helped us as a table having a GM that was also familiar with the rules (the GM was a player in my Wrath game). We only spent 45 minutes on intro and explaining mass combat, and everyone grabbed their armies rapidly and understood the system pretty well after the first round.
I dislike a few of the mechanics with the system, namely that all PCs are punished for not investing in Charisma or Profession (soldier) over and over again. Both in the pseudo "initiative" checks, morale checks, changing tactics in combat, etc. It seems a tad unfair, especially since those are the only relevant statistics to have for mass combat. The mechanics of it invalidate players at the table not invested in that direction.
In Wrath it isn't such a big deal, because for the mass combats there you only have one "general" and everyone else doesn't make the checks (since you only have one army for most of it). Giving each player an army makes this issue a lot more noticeable, especially at our table with an oracle and two summoners. Because of this, I'm bummed that the scenario spends half it's encounters using mass combat. Fortunately, again we had a stellar GM, who allowed us to RP ridiculous things (like phantom steed for extra mammoths to demoralize our foes, etc), so the enjoyment of the table overshadowed these flawed (imo) mechanics.
Inclusion of the troop: Holy cow was this a hard fight! I was playing my support wizard, and we could legitimately do nothing to this foe except slowly beat it down. And given that it does about ~100 damage a round in the 6-7 (with the 4 player adjust so there is only 1x), it was challenging to say the least. I understand why it was included and why it makes sense for it to be included, but I don't think it should have been included in the same scenario that introduced players to mass combat.
Having both is just throwing too many new mechanics at players in such a short span of time. I would have liked to see them spaced out over other Season 5 scenarios (5-25 could have easily used a troop or two), rather than both crammed into one.
Everything else: Aside from those two pain points, which were really only pain points because they were both in the same scenario, I had a really good time with this scenario. The final fight was challenging, the location, setting, and flavor was perfect, and the way previous boons were included was definitely the way to go. I am bummed that it wasn't a 7-11, as it honestly felt a lot more epic than 5-25 does to me. Fighting thousands of tieflings lead by a balor-spawned demon commander is waaaaaay cooler than tracking down a couple of traitors and putting them on ice, IMO.
Thurston Hillman Managing Creative Director (Starfinder) |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The boss would have been cool, except it had the enormous disadvantage of a lazy dungeon designer. Two traps lead to him, and the party can heal after each if they tripped them at all (we didn't) and then the boss is in a tiny featureless room. First round started off with our totori monk grappling and pinning the guy, second round coup de grace and congratulations pathfinders.
I apologize that your party's monk was able to defeat the BBEG with the form of combat he was specialized in.
WalterGM RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8 |
I actually really enjoyed the final fight, mainly because of the trap before it and what happened as a result.
My Cha 7 wizard was hit by the curse trap, took some damage and dropped her ego even more. I asked the GM what the damage was representative of, and "he said something like you feel your mind invaded, and some of your memories fade away." Immediately, I started acting paranoid and nervously looking around the table.
"Who are you people? What have you done to me!?"
Then we RP'd the rest of the party calming me down and explaining that we were all Pathfinders and here to root out the evil warlord that is waiting in the lower levels. I calm down a bit, and we continue. When we got to the room with the big glass windows (the eyes of the demon face) I rushed forward and started smashing at the glass with my sword, crying as I moaned, "Where am I, where am I?!"
Good times, good times.
We ended up fighting him on the terrace of his room, because the witch and I flew out the broken eye-window and started giving ranged support to the party. It was actually a very cool final chamber to fight in: the open maw of a Rushmore-like demon head. Reminded me of a Pathfinder version of Richie Rich.
wakedown |
Second round coup de grace and congratulations pathfinders.
Grand finale encounters with a single enemy are a pet peeve of mine as well, as they almost always tend to be unspectacular in organized play.
This end guy has a 60% chance to drop in the first round to a slumber hex. I can totally see how after spending a few hours running an army instead of your character followed by watch the "BBEG" drop to a slumber hex (all before you can act) would lead to this scenario being "meh".
Mark Seifter Designer |
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Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?
Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.
BartonOliver |
BigNorseWolf wrote:Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.
Exactly this happened in the session I ran. While I know it is a completely legit build that takes a good bit to build up to it felt like it made the final fight extremely disappointing, as there were some cool tactics and such available to the BBEG but just over too fast.
A couple of other notes about my session. Troop seems legitimately interesting, but caused 2 of my players to run away and hide while the 2 martials dealt with it. The mass combat overall seemed pretty manageable and fairly fast actually (once you get past going through the rules) but with the exception of the Rift Drakes there were no real challenges in either encounter. The trap seemed like just a throw in to make the idea of climbing down 4 floors more interesting. Instead of the trap an add or two in the final encounter really could have allowed the half-fiend to shine IMO
Le Petite Mort |
BigNorseWolf wrote:Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.
I did exaggerate slightly. First round monk heads up initiative order, moves and grapples in snapping turtle style. BBEG got off one of his little magus spells, monk made the save but took maybe 6-12 damage. Something like that. Other martial moves up.
Second round monk pins, other martial coups.It wasn't that he was defeated essentially by a single character, its that it happened so quickly on a boss that could have been fun and challenging had he been anywhere he could fly around while a few minions harried the party on land. Putting a lone flyer underground in a small room offered no challenge whatsoever, particulary given that the party only had one encounter prior, and so a truly epic boss would have been fine.
By the way, the character that took him down in two turns singlehandedly was level 7, and we were in the high tier. That shouldn't happe, the fight (and mission as a whole) were flawed.
Alex McGuire |
Mark Seifter wrote:BigNorseWolf wrote:Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.I did exaggerate slightly. First round monk heads up initiative order, moves and grapples in snapping turtle style. BBEG got off one of his little magus spells, monk made the save but took maybe 6-12 damage. Something like that. Other martial moves up.
Second round monk pins, other martial coups.It wasn't that he was defeated essentially by a single character, its that it happened so quickly on a boss that could have been fun and challenging had he been anywhere he could fly around while a few minions harried the party on land. Putting a lone flyer underground in a small room offered no challenge whatsoever, particulary given that the party only had one encounter prior, and so a truly epic boss would have been fine.
By the way, the character that took him down in two turns singlehandedly was level 7, and we were in the high tier. That shouldn't happe, the fight (and mission as a whole) were flawed.
If you had tripped the trap, or done anything that would have been loud, then the NPC would have had A TON of buffs going. Most relevant being Darkness (cast on the spear), mirror image and displacement. These would have easily things significantly more difficult.
Mark Seifter Designer |
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Mark Seifter wrote:BigNorseWolf wrote:Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.I did exaggerate slightly. First round monk heads up initiative order, moves and grapples in snapping turtle style. BBEG got off one of his little magus spells, monk made the save but took maybe 6-12 damage. Something like that. Other martial moves up.
Second round monk pins, other martial coups.It wasn't that he was defeated essentially by a single character, its that it happened so quickly on a boss that could have been fun and challenging had he been anywhere he could fly around while a few minions harried the party on land. Putting a lone flyer underground in a small room offered no challenge whatsoever, particulary given that the party only had one encounter prior, and so a truly epic boss would have been fine.
By the way, the character that took him down in two turns singlehandedly was level 7, and we were in the high tier. That shouldn't happe, the fight (and mission as a whole) were flawed.
Keep in mind pinning is not a sufficient condition for a coup de grace. The monk would also need to tie the enemy up (possible on the same round though with Greater Grapple).
TetsujinOni |
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I've run this four times, LPM; it's had everything from "PCs snuck in" to "BBEG has full prep and choice of where to stand".
I disagree fundamentally about the fight. Depending on how smart the PCs have been, it perfectly models the spectrum of "successful hit team takes out the big bad general by surprise" to "epic fight that splits the party".
Master of Swords and Warmaster Marcos Farabellus must have been damn glad to see your tetori there to send after a casty.
Thurston Hillman Managing Creative Director (Starfinder) |
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I feel I should pop in here to discuss a few important points.
I don't want to dwell on the 'mass combat' stuff too much. Either you're going to love it, or you're going to hate it. There's little middle ground, and I can understand that this is a curve ball to people who don't know what the scenario is about.
As for the final act...
-The lack of lesser NPCs for the BBEG is intentional. The use of a troop is meant to represent all the stationed soldiers defending him. While having mooks in the encounter with him means he has less levels, which are already pretty low due to the half-fiend template.
-The trap can be QUITE lethal and I've already heard some excellent horror stories about it. It's not a 'heal and continue' it's a "Oh I took some Charisma damage. No biggie" and then in the final encounter that Cure Serious takes a turn for the worse. If players manage to get past it, all the props to them.
-For the BBEG... a solo-encounter was intentional. Having a half-fiend magus who has a high intelligence is pretty intense. It isn't likely the PCs will get down without alerting him, in which case he'll have some high buffs up (displacement/mirror image). He also has the ability to fly in and out of the bunker mouth. I think his Morale is one of the most lethal tactics I've included on an NPC, just because it can just kill unprepared PCs.
Interesting tidbit that I couldn't fit in the tactics: He can toss out a Stinking Cloud and remain immune to it, due to his immunity to poison.
-One final note... terrain. The bunker is mostly traversable by ladders. So are PCs just jumping down? Or are they climbing the ladders? When I ran tests of this, the PCs got stuck just moving around the floors, giving the half-fiend plenty of time to prepare.
As always, YMMV, but I'll stand by the final act as it turned out between myself and development. :)
TetsujinOni |
Mark Seifter wrote:Keep in mind pinning is not a sufficient condition for a coup de grace. The monk would also need to tie the enemy up (possible on the same round though with Greater Grapple).I assume you just search for any posts with Grapple and come in to educate people! :D
though I do have to admit.... there isn't much point in playing the initiative further from a mechanics standpoint from that position. Switching to narrative mode at that point strikes me as the thing to do....
JohnF Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West |
Mind you, trying to fly out when you're surrounded by a bunch of angry adventurers isn't guaranteed to work. In fact in the second table I ran enough of the AoOs got through to reduce him to exactly 0hp. This meant that the strenuous action of attempting to fly meant he pretty much leapt out of the room and collapsed ignominiously.
zefig |
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With those of you noting that the second round of mass combat battles was still super easy, were the demon armies ganging up on PC armies? We mostly had 3-4 demon armies on 1-2 PC armies during that section, oftentimes fighting at night, and we ended up losing 2-3 PC armies that way. Demons fight dirty!