Gunsmithing to Repair Starting Firearm

[Ugly Jed Peeps]

When using the Gunsmithing feat to repair and restore one's initial, battered firearm and upgrade it to masterwork, does one need to consider one's Fame and its associated item purchase limit? If so, how does one determine the minimum Fame score needed to perform said repair/upgrade?

[Jeffrey Fox]

Interesting question, with the precedent from arcane bond (and other item upgrading rules) I would imagine that you would indeed need the fame required.

And the fame would be based on the total price of a MW version of the pistol/musket/blunderbuss which ever you are fixing.

So 9 Fame for Pistol, 13 for Musket or Blunderbuss.

[Ugly Jed Peeps]

Then the earliest one would qualify to take advantage of this feat for this purpose would be after 5 scenarios (for a pistol) or 7 scenarios (for a musket or blunderbuss), yes?

And because firearms are never considered Always Available, one would need 18 Fame (a minimum of 9 scenarios) before any +1 firearm were available, yes?

[Jeffrey Fox]

Seems right. Getting firearms is supposed to be hard because the items are meant to be extremely rare.

[Nefreet]

Additional Resources wrote:

No character may purchase a firearm unless she possesses the Gunsmithing feat and firearms are never considered Always Available; a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature.

This suggests that upgrading your starting firearm via the Gunsmithing feat is allowed regardless of Fame.

[Jeffrey Fox]

Nefreet wrote:

Additional Resources wrote:

No character may purchase a firearm unless she possesses the Gunsmithing feat and firearms are never considered Always Available; a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature.

This suggests that upgrading your starting firearm via the Gunsmithing feat is allowed regardless of Fame.

That actually just clarifies that you don't need a certain fame to be able to get a free firearm from a class feature even though it's not always available. Especially since it says purchase, and not upgrade.

They're is no reason why firearms should not have to follow the fame required rules for upgrading items that arcane bonds do. In fact the only items in the game that break fame requirements are items on chronicle sheets and always available items.

[SCPRedMage]

Jeffrey Fox wrote:

That actually just clarifies that you don't need a certain fame to be able to get a free firearm from a class feature even though it's not always available. Especially since it says purchase, and not upgrade.

They're is no reason why firearms should not have to follow the fame required rules for upgrading items that arcane bonds do. In fact the only items in the game that break fame requirements are items on chronicle sheets and always available items.

No reason other than the fact the ability to upgrade said battered firearm to a masterwork weapon is granted by a class feature (well, more accurately, it's granted by a feat, which is granted by a class feature, and said feat works different for this one class, so close enough).

Your "it's not a purchase" argument cuts both ways on this, for the record; if upgrades don't count as purchases, then the Fame restriction wouldn't apply to upgrades, ever, because outside of the section detailing upgrading items, the Guide only ever refers to "purchasing" items. It has, of course, been clarified that the "purchasing" limits apply to "upgrading", too, meaning that there is no difference in "purchase" and "upgrade", as far as the rules are concerned.

Also, the quoted section would be entirely unneeded, if your assertion were to be true; the firearm is NOT purchased, but rather automatically gained for free, so the purchasing rules wouldn't apply, period, and only the most pedantic gun-hating rules-lawyering fun-destroying jerk would waste everyone's time by trying to argue that no, really, the PFS staff wanted to remove the gunslinger's starting weapon without actually stating that they're removing or modifying that class feature to reflect that fact.

Instead, I choose to interpret this in a manner that means it'll actually have a function: that a specific firearm granted by a class feature is NOT, by itself, subject to Fame limitations. This would mean that you could upgrade it all the way to a +1 weapon without requiring any Fame, but going beyond that would require Fame as per the usual rules (because at that point it's the enchantment that's the problem, no the firearm). Remember, the Additional Resources said you can "purchase" a firearm granted by a class feature, and the only way to "purchase" an item you already got for free is to upgrade it.

And why, exactly, should we handicap gunslingers with having to wait until they have nine fame (which means at LEAST five XP, which is one XP from level three, but the campaign assumption of 1.5 PP per scenario that puts it at six XP) to do something that pretty much any other character would be EXPECTED to do at level one, anyway?

But let's keep this simple, and on topic: with the understanding that the ability to upgrade the battered firearm to a masterwork firearm is granted by the same class feature that grants the battered firearm itself, and the understanding that "purchase" and "upgrade" are synonymous, as far as Fame restrictions are concerned, why would

Additional Resources wrote:

a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature.

NOT mean a gunslinger could "purchase" the firearm upgrade granted by their class feature with zero Fame?

[Ugly Jed Peeps]

Because the gunslinger's initial, free firearm is granted by a class feature, upgrading it is not restricted by Fame, yes?

[SCPRedMage]

Ugly Jed Peeps wrote:

Because the gunslinger's initial, free firearm is granted by a class feature, upgrading it is not restricted by Fame, yes?

At the very least, I would say that because the ability to do so is granted by a class feature, the upgrade to a masterwork firearm is not restricted by Fame; it's a wee bit more of a stretch to make the same claim about the upgrade to +1 firearm, and anything beyond that is definitely subject to Fame.

[Jeffrey Fox]

SCPRedMage wrote:

No reason other than the fact the ability to upgrade said battered firearm to a masterwork weapon is granted by a class feature (well, more accurately, it's granted by a feat, which is granted by a class feature, and said feat works different for this one class, so close enough).

Gunsmithing isn't the only ability that in the game that allows upgrading of items. So does Arcane Bond. And just like Arcane Bond, Firearms need to follow all the campaign rules for upgrading items and availability.

Gunslingers do not get to break the campaign rules.

The Gunsmithing text in the additional resources is meant to override the additional resources rules on equipment that's says that firearms are never always available.

That's why the quote mentions that firearms that are found on chronicle sheets are always available as well.

Because without that note people would argue that because the additional resources says that firearms are never always available that even if they appeared on a chronicle sheet that you would need fame to buy it. The note is to clarify the rules, not to allow Gunslingers to break them.

[Ugly Jed Peeps]

Sounds like there might be some table variance?

I'd hate to play a gunslinger, be told by one GM that it's okay to use the Gunsmithing feat, using the gold earned from my first Chronicle Sheet, to repair my firearm and upgrade it to masterwork... only to find out at my next table that its GM won't let me use that masterwork firearm because I don't have enough Fame to own it. I also don't want to be the GM that misleads my players as to what can and can't be done... or harshly enforces a rule he's misinterpreted.

[SCPRedMage]

Jeffrey Fox wrote:

Gunsmithing isn't the only ability that in the game that allows upgrading of items. So does Arcane Bond. And just like Arcane Bond, Firearms need to follow all the campaign rules for upgrading items and availability.

Gunsmithing and Arcane Bond aren't equivalent, here, as Arcane Bond doesn't grant a free item that isn't Always Available; it grants a free masterwork weapon, or a free non-magical amulet or wand (which would be non-items otherwise, but as non-magical items would be Always Available), nor does it grant the ability to upgrade said item to masterwork (which itself would be Always Available, on any other item), which breaks the normal rules on the masterwork quality (must be added at time of creation), nor does Arcane Bond have a special PFS rule as to getting to ignore the Fame requirement.

Jeffrey Fox wrote:

Gunslingers do not get to break the campaign rules.

Quite right, but we're in disagreement over what constitutes "breaking the rules". I'm saying the Additional Resources rules on firearms indicates that you are allowed to purchase the upgrade for your battered firearm without the need for Fame, as it is granted by a class feature, thus meaning this ISN'T breaking the rules, and you are apparently claiming that that particular passage does nothing.

Jeffrey Fox wrote:

The Gunsmithing text in the additional resources is meant to override the additional resources rules on equipment that's says that firearms are never always available.

That's why the quote mentions that firearms that are found on chronicle sheets are always available as well.

No, items on chronicles are NOT "Always Available"; note the capitalization used by the Additional Resources. This is a defined term by the campaign, and refers to items that fall under the Always Available list, which (normally) includes all mundane weapons. The rules regarding chronicle sheet access do NOT add items to the Always Available list; they allow access separately, and defining an item as NOT Always Available does not change how access to items on chronicle sheets work (although the bit about needing Gunsmithing does, but that's irrelevant).

So to clarify, you seem confused to the technical details of how item access works, in PFS. You seem to be working under the assumption that players can only buy things that are "always available" (no capitals), and that chronicle sheets and Fame add items to this "always available" list, which is technically inaccurate, but functionally extremely close. Always Available, chronicle sheets, and Fame access are three separate rules, and do not interact directly, ever. Changing what you can buy using one rule does NOT change what you can buy using another rule.

Jeffrey Fox wrote:

Because without that note people would argue that because the additional resources says that firearms are never always available that even if they appeared on a chronicle sheet that you would need fame to buy it. The note is to clarify the rules, not to allow Gunslingers to break them.

And they'd be wrong, because as I explained above, Always Available and chronicle sheet access are two separate, non-interacting rules. Also, said player would need to be slapped in the face with a five pound trout, because they apparently need to be shocked into realizing the ridiculousness of stating that putting an item on a chronicle sheet doesn't change how players can access said item.

So let ME try to explain this, from my perspective.

Additional Resources wrote:

No character may purchase a firearm unless she possesses the Gunsmithing feat and firearms are never considered Always Available; a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature.

Now, if the intent here was to simply make it so firearms weren't Always Available, meaning you always need the appropriate Fame to buy any firearm not on a chronicle sheet, as you are claiming, then they wouldn't need anything after the semicolon, because we already know we can buy items that aren't Always Available off of chronicles, and as I've already stated, the gunslinger starting weapon isn't purchased, so purchase restrictions don't apply. Remember, chronicle sheet access and the Fame purchase limit are NOT worded as changing the Always Available list, so defining an item as "never Always Available" doesn't actually change the purchasing rules beyond what you say the goal was.

But if, as I am claiming, they intended for the gunslinger's starting weapon to be an exception to the standard purchasing rules, they would need to continue with an exception to this, which they have. Since they worded the exception they way they did ("must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not..."), it necessitated listing the OTHER instance wherein you could buy a firearm without Fame, or else people would, as you stated, interpret this exception as removing the other exception.

In other words, the misunderstanding you claim this text is only there to prevent could only be caused by the text you say is there to prevent it.

[Jeffrey Fox]

SCPRedMage wrote:

No, items on chronicles are NOT "Always Available"; note the capitalization used by the Additional Resources. This is a defined term by the campaign, and refers to items that fall under the Always Available list, which (normally) includes all mundane weapons.

I'm short on time, but you're premiss here is flawed. Under the subsection of the guide labeled "always available" is the section that tells you that you can buy items found on your chronicle sheets. That's because the items on a character's chronicle sheets become always available to that character (of course as exceptions in of them selves they sometimes have limits.)

And fame does not add to always available list. Edit: actually I mister ember ed and fame is in that section too. End edit. So I'm not confused, I may interpret the rules different then you, but I find claiming that I'm confused to be rather rude.

[kinevon]

Jeffrey, to clarify a campauign rule for you:

Firearms were moved to requiring sufficient Fame to purchase because several firearms would, as Always Available items, break the early game even worse than a Barbarian wielding a masterwork Greatsword while raging would, or an archer wielding a Str-rated masterwork composite longbow can.

Now, IIRC, it was clarified by Mike B, somewhere, that that change was not supposed to cover teh initial firearm granted by the class feature, mainly because, even masterworked, that firearm doesn't break the game.

Now, you can continue to pour wet blanket on all your local gunslinger players, making me happy that I am not in your neck of the woods, but that upgrade, granted by having the Gunslinger feat is not a purchase, it is, essentially, part of a class-granted feature, and not game breaking to allow the Rules As Written.