| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If a monster power attacks with the grab ability would the constrict damage remain as normal damage for that attack or would it be the increased value from the power attack?
Depends on the source of the constrict. Final Embrace for example states "Your constrict attack deals damage equal to your unarmed strike or primary natural weapon melee attack." So any way you can buff your unarmed or primary natural weapon damage will also buff your constrict damage. Power Attack does just that.
I think constrict is automatic damage sort of like a rider affect so I dont think it applies, but I do think it applies to the normal damage you can do when you choose to deal damage after making a grapple check.
I think constrict is automatic damage sort of like a rider affect so I dont think it applies, but I do think it applies to the normal damage you can do when you choose to deal damage after making a grapple check.
I'm confused (not the first time) are you saying you don't think power attack damage would be included in the constrict?
If it helps, I'm playing a prehensile hair Magus/WHW2 with final embrace.
I think constrict is automatic damage sort of like a rider affect so I dont think it applies, but I do think it applies to the normal damage you can do when you choose to deal damage after making a grapple check.I'm confused (not the first time) are you saying you don't think power attack damage would be included in the constrict?
If it helps, I'm playing a prehensile hair Magus/WHW2 with final embrace.
When you do a grapple check you get to do normal damage. The constrict is an ability that gives extra damage. I am sure PA does not apply twice, which is what would happen if you applied it to constrict.
edit: corrected post.
Power Attack modifies all "melee damage rolls", Constrict certainly seems to fit the bill, it's similar to a rider, but it's definitely it's own source, similar to Rend (which also gets PA).
It's also modified by strength, so I have no issue saying PA applies.
So it applies to sneak attack also since that can be applied or denied separately from weapon damage?
I know it does not apply to sneak attack. I am just giving an example of a secondary affect that happens when you make an attack roll.
I'm leaning towards Incorporealattack here, PA on the hit but not on the Constrict.
Anyone else with an opinion?
Well, does the PA attack penalty apply to the CMB check for the grapple? That would go a long way to convincing me of the way it should go.
Power Attack modifies all "melee damage rolls", Constrict certainly seems to fit the bill, it's similar to a rider, but it's definitely it's own source, similar to Rend (which also gets PA).
It's also modified by strength, so I have no issue saying PA applies.
So it applies to sneak attack also since that can be applied or denied separately from weapon damage?
I know it does not apply to sneak attack. I am just giving an example of a secondary affect that happens when you make an attack roll.
No, Sneak Attack is explicitly totaled with the base damage (although this may not be 100% clear from RAW alone).
Do you dispute Rend (any sort) from getting PA? It wouldn't get SA because there's no attack roll though.
Constrict is much more similar to Rend than SA.
Rend is the affect of two other attacks hitting. It is not an attack that has its own attack roll so yes I dispute it, and that includes Two Weapon Rend which is just "add on" damage if you have two weapon fighting. It is just bonus damage reliant upon other conditions.
POWER ATTACK
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
GRAPPLE
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a -4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both your and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
As I read it, you constriction is a natural attack, so you would be able to apply that damage to a grappled foe. Unfortunately, power attack applies to melee attack rolls and grappling is a combat maneuver, not a melee attack, so you wouldn't be able to use power attack with the constriction damage in a grapple.
That might seem like a fine hair to split, but RAW are RAW.
HOWEVER, were I your DM, I would allow it, but I would insist that the penalty apply to your CMB and your CMD (making it harder to make your next grapple check and making it easier for your foe to break free) until your next turn.
POWER ATTACK** spoiler omitted **
GRAPPLE** spoiler omitted **...
Mykull when you maintain the grapple you have the option to do the damage applied by the limb that is doing the grapple.
That is under the grapple section you quoted, and grapple is a melee attack. It just does not automatically do damage unless you choose to deal damage while maintaining.
That's correct.
Mykull when you maintain the grapple you have the option to do the damage applied by the limb that is doing the grapple
I agree. And I said so in my first post:
As I read it, your constriction is a natural attack, so you would be able to apply that damage to a grappled foe.
. . . and grapple is a melee attack.
* ACTIONS IN COMBAT (CRB: p.181 – 182)
-->Standard Actions------>Attack
---------->Melee Attacks
* SPECIAL ATTACKS (CRB: p. 197 – 201)
-->Combat Maneuvers
------>Grapple
The headings of “ACTIONS IN COMBAT” and “SPECIAL ATTACKS” are both bold, capitalized, underlined and have the special symbol next to them. I'd argue that they are separate types of actions. Yes, they are both standard actions, but not the same type; meaning that just because maintaining a grapple is standard action, that doesn't mean it is also a melee attack. By that reasoning, lowering spell resistance would be a melee attack because it, too, is a standard action. And I don't think you think that.
To restate my interpretation: OP can apply constriction damage in a grapple because it is a natural attack. OP cannot utilize power attack in this instance because that feat applies to melee attack rolls and grappling is a special attack.
|
The way I read it, Constrict is free damage that comes as a result of making any successful grapple check. Typically equal to the damage caused by the creature's melee attack. If the creature is currently Power Attacking, two things happen. First, the Grapple Check is decreased by the PA penalty, next the Constrict damage is increased by the PA bonus.
Further, if this particular Grapple check is being made to maintain a grapple, you may now also apply damage "equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon". This damage roll is ALSO increased by the PA bonus.
This has the controversial effect of allowing you to apply the PA damage bonus when only paying PA attack penalty once (on the initial Grapple check). Just make sure to enforce the PA attack penalty.
So, that's at my table, anyway. YMM obviously V. In my games, Constrict is a very powerful ability, basically giving you a double shot on the PA increase.
Would you allow Power Attack on a Sunder attempt? That is a Combat Maneuver that directly deals damage to an item, and I can't think of any argument in the rules that says you can't put that little bit of extra PA oomph behind your attempt to break something. Why not allow it on any other Combat Maneuver?
A Combat Maneuver attempt IS an attack roll, and it most often takes place in Melee. It doesn't always make sense to apply PA (most Maneuvers don't deal a damage roll), but in the couple of cases where it does, bring it on. Just remember bad guys get to do it, as well.
Yes, combat maneuvers are attack rolls, meaning the mechanic is the same, but are they melee attacks?
The CRB (on p. 199) also states, “While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action."
“If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold . . . Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions {damage} (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
The question then becomes is the grapple part of an attack action, in place of a melee attack, or does it require a specific action.
As the book at two different times calls for “a check” and not an “attack roll,” I would say that grappling falls under the category of a specific action. However, as you pointed out, “Combat maneuvers are attack rolls,” and grappling is a combat maneuver, so that appears to muddy the waters a bit.
Consider these combat maneuvers:
Bull Rush: You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
Disarm: You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack.
Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.
Trip: You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.
Compared to these:
Overrun: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Feint: Feinting is a standard action.
Grapple: As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.
Power Attack cannot be applied to actions that do not deal hit point damage so I don't think it can be used with Bull Rush, Disarm, or Trip. However, as Sunder does deal hp damage, I would say that one could apply Power Attack to it, especially as that combat manuever takes the place of the melee attack.
But Overrun, Feint and Grapple do not mention “in place of the melee attack.” They just say that those maneuvers are standard actions. I would say that these are the combat manuevers that require special action and thus, ineligible for Power Attack.
It would be nice if the CRB were a bit clearer on the matter. I still don't see RAW as permitting power attack to apply to grapples. However, I would still allow it in my game, but I'd apply the power attack penalty to the iniating grappler's CMB & CMD.
If a combat maneuver is a melee attack, then why are the size modifiers different?
The size modifier for melee attacks followed by the special size modifer for combat manuevers:
Fine: +8/-8
Diminutive: +4/-4
Tiny: +2/-2
Small: +1/-1
Medium: 0/0
Large: -1/+1
Huge: -2/+2
Gargantuan: -4/+4
Colossal: -8/+8
A further difference between the two is that creatures Tiny and smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB whereas a melee attack is modified by Strength regardless of size.
Combat maneuvers and melee attacks occur within the same range, but they are not calculated in the same way, so there is a difference between them.
And James Jacobs said, "power attack won't increase sneak attack or constrict damage," so I feel on even more solid ground than I did before.
Power Attack should increase Constrict Damage, but would also penalize the grapple check.
If you take a look at the PFS FAQ on Rend which is roughly 3 years newer then the James Jacob post you'll see that they justify Power Attack on rend because it's a melee damage roll. Constrict is the same, it's a melee damage roll.
Obviously that's a PFS FAQ and not a Pathfinder FAQ, so the implications are really only limited to PFS and not to any individual GM's home game.
Fixed your URL tags. You had it backwards.Power Attack should increase Constrict Damage, but would also penalize the grapple check.
If you take a look at the PFS FAQ on Rend which is roughly 3 years newer then the James Jacob post you'll see that they justify Power Attack on rend because it's a melee damage roll. Constrict is the same, it's a melee damage roll.
Obviously that's a PFS FAQ and not a Pathfinder FAQ, so the implications are really only limited to PFS and not to any individual GM's home game.
Thank's I went back and edited it. My brain is totally not working fully right now.
If a combat maneuver is a melee attack, then why are the size modifiers different?
The size modifier for melee attacks followed by the special size modifer for combat manuevers:
Fine: +8/-8
Diminutive: +4/-4
Tiny: +2/-2
Small: +1/-1
Medium: 0/0
Large: -1/+1
Huge: -2/+2
Gargantuan: -4/+4
Colossal: -8/+8A further difference between the two is that creatures Tiny and smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB whereas a melee attack is modified by Strength regardless of size.
Combat maneuvers and melee attacks occur within the same range, but they are not calculated in the same way, so there is a difference between them.
And James Jacobs said, "power attack won't increase sneak attack or constrict damage," so I feel on even more solid ground than I did before.
They have different modifiers because the book say the combat maneuver have a "special size modifier". That is in the combat chapter, and we agree that power attack does not work on constrict or sneak attack so I don't know why that was mentioned.
The reason it works in reverse is because it is easier for a bigger creature to do the things the combat maneuvers do so the rules were written that way. I am sure I can push a gnome down a lot more easily than I can do it to a giant.
RAW: At no point is the damage dealt by constrict referred to as "melee damage." So no.
RAI: Swing in powerful but reckless/telegraphed fashion, so your blows are less accurate but land harder. There's no risk of missing when you're just squeezing something as hard as you can. So no.
Speculation of why CMB checks are mentioned at all: So you can't cheese the system by taking your one power attack hit at the start of the full attack when you are in "don't roll a one" territory then switching over to combat maneuvers once the iterative attack penalties make the attack rolls too dicey to want to risk the extra penalty. So no.
RAW: At no point is the damage dealt by constrict referred to as "melee damage." So no.
I'm not even sure a longsword is ever referred to as doing melee damage.
Constrict does actually stat that it typically does damage equal to the creatures melee attack's damage. So if that melee attack would get power attack, by RAW so would constrict.
It's not. It's referred to as a melee weapon. So are hands, tentacles, and claws.RAW: At no point is the damage dealt by constrict referred to as "melee damage." So no.I'm not even sure a longsword is ever referred to as doing melee damage.
Constrict does actually stat that it typically does damage equal to the creatures melee attack's damage. So if that melee attack would get power attack, by RAW so would constrict.
Right, I just wasn't sure if there was some obscure place in the rules where they actually define melee damage in a way that would mean something like constrict wouldn't be melee damage.