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*Looks very hard for anything at all to do with power gaming*
Nope, can't find it.
Consider changing your title to "2 players who won't roleplay bumming out the rest of the group".
And since I'm the first poster I'll provide the obvious first thing you should do but which for some reason never seems to be what happens...talk to your players about it. Air grievances. They're obviously expecting different things form the group than you are.
See if you can calibrate their expectations, and if not it may be time to gently but firmly suggest they find a group they mesh with better.
These are some pretty general and common problems that you're having with these players, I gotta back up Rynjin here, talk to them. It's gonna be a pain but if you can try and directly address these issues with your players it could save everyone involved heaps of trouble. If their behavior cannot be turned around you may have to continue your game with a four player group. If their actions are disruptive enough that it's ruining the game for everyone else, drastic measures can be taken.
Edit: Become familiar with that rogue archetype, track your Necromancer's spells. You seem like a laid back Dm, which is great for most players, but these guys need apparently need a game-master who'll crack the whip.
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Not everyone plays the same way or should play together. In my home game we just had a bard enter combat with two tower shields wielded. He also attempted tree climbing among other things. I laughed. I cried. The group is eager to find a replacement since having hardness 5 or 10 and a shields worth of HP is rather difficult for encounters appropriate for third level characters.
1. They should let you finish describing the room. Also, it sounds like they are organized a little bit and that tiny not of organization is making things go way faster. I'd love to have that miniscule amount of organization in a PFS game. See what just happened there? This trait you dislike is one someone else really appreciates. We've entered the realm of different playgroups/styles. I get Bord of rp heavy melodramatic sessions where nothing actually gets done. I am all about 'tangible' progress. Sure, rp and combat and story I like. But I really don't care about any of it unless I am advancing my goals (usually leveling or story based). These guys sound like they are looking for and expecting a very different experience than being offered.
2.) Inform him that his turns take too long. If he can speed them up on his own, great. If not, there are several things you can do such as limiting the number of monsters he can use for combat, put monsters in groups on initiative and even to make 'group' rolls for attacks, etc. You can also provide him with a timer since it takes mental effort to control them all (usually) and he can only issue so many commands during his six seconds. You can also work with him prior to the start of a session to discuss simple ideas to keep his turns flowing. Depending on the player, I have informed them that their turn will be skipped if they aren't ready when it is their turn. So maybe he needs to figure out his general strategy and/or tactics before his turn comes up to speed things along.
3.) Simply do not reward the player knowledge. You do not have to confirm or deny any information unless the player makes a successful knowledge check. People also forget that as a gm, you can change things. In a lot of games, you could have magical things that were magical without being identified as spellcraft allows. Magical effects can exist that are not present within the game. Monsters can come with unique special properties that simply don't have a book detailing it yet. Maybe the monster cannot die and stays at 0 HP indefinitely or until it can heal/rest to regain them. Maybe the magic well cannot be dispelled, creates random magic weapons and they all dissipear after the characters wielding them first rest. You aren't bound by the published works or ideas. He can guess all he wants. And if he uses out of character knowledge in game (like switching to fire on the fire weak monster with no reasonable in game way of knowing that it is vulnerable to fire) you can simply not reward him for the encounter, inform him that metagaming like that is not appreciated, remove the fire vulnerability from the monster at that point or any other number of options. You're the gm. It's your call as to what is appropriate.
4.) Tough. I would tell them this and say it very directly: get. Over. It.
Much worse will happen as the game goes on, some of it worse than death. If you don't like that, can't handle it and don't know how to appreciate a free warning (the aoo thing) when I give it, I may not be the gm for you.
This is clearly a maturity issue and they need to work that out.
I have been quite brutal to players and exceptionally lenient. It is all dependant on the relationship and your aims.
A couple of extra things to do, after you talk to all the players (not just these 2):
1. For the player using excessive time taking his turns, simply say 'your character clearly isn't ready' and move onto the next initiative count. If he still isn't able to complete his turn within eg 5mins maximum at the end of the round, cut him off and say 'you've run out of time, your turn is over' or words to that effect.
2. Out of character information: say 'does your character have the Internet available? No, so stop using it for stuff your character doesn't know. That's what knowledge checks are for.' Insist on this because he's spoiling the game.
3. When they try to pre-empt the others and yourself, hold up your hand and ignore them until you've ready to continue. There are lots of variations on how to do this, the key part is their characters don't actually do anything until you let them act. Turn to each player in turn and ask them directly what their character is doing; none of them get any actions until you have that information from each of them. Eventually, this works to train them into playing together, or they leave.
Edit : ninja'd by DI.
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Sadly your two problem players are bumming me out as well. I am sorry for you having to play with them. They are not doing anything "wrong" objectively, but subjectively they are looting, entitled a$$hats I would not wish to play with. And I've just exposed myself as opinionated and bigoted. Go figure.
Like every other thread like this, and as posted upthread: yada yada talk to them, yada yada appeal to their sense of group fun yada yada if they can't moderate their behaviour nuke them from orbit yada yada
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It might actually take longer, but you could get them to roleplay their skill checks to an extent. If they see a statue and say "I roll perception" then give them a couple of details instead and ask them if they'd like to look closer at one of them. It seems like you're keen to get them more involved in the narrative and have put thought into the smaller details.
As for google - you could I suppose put a ban on phones/laptops at the table, or enact a penalty for googling out-of-character knowledge. If they keep leaking OOC knowledge into the game then you can either penalise them, deceive them or homebrew an appropriate challenge they can't google.
I completely agree with Gilarius about the long turn though. If this player takes too long then tell him his turn is over. There is a limit to what you can accomplish in six seconds, and being indecisive is a full-round action. As for having too many familiars/undead/pets, I don't see a problem with imposing a hard limit of 1 (maybe 2) per person in combat to keep things fluid.
A lot of good suggestions here. Re: turns taking too long--instead of arbitrarily telling someone they're taking too long, use an hourglass timer (a minute long one from any number of board games). This way the sorcerer cant complain about being singled out and will learn to cut down the time.
Extracts are different, but regarding the sorcerers spells (which are spontaneous, not prepared) gov him little game pieces (gems, tokens, etc), different colors for each spell level. Each time he casts a spell he gives you a token.
As a rule I would always in the future ask to see any 3rd party content for preapproval.
Finally, if you institute some rules and talk to the players and they keep making it unenjoyable for you and the other players, politely ask them to find another group. 4 PCs is a great group size and should speed up combat specifically.
The first two players seem to be of a different speed/playstyle to everyone else, so you could start a second playgroup with those two as leaders and two new players who're looking for the same style of game. They seem to treat the game more as a puzzle to be figured out, which it is, but that does tend to ignore all the detail.
As for the spellcaster who brought the zoo, tell them to keep check of their spells. When they next haven't remembered their spells, they've used all their spells for the day that instant. That'll learn 'em.
As for people googling information, I'd rule out any outside information and really make a clear line between PC information, and player information. For example if they PC knows what the player knows, they have to have make an immediate Nihilism check (DC25,000,000) using their Cha mod, or died irrevocably and unrecovably.
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They seem to treat the game more as a puzzle to be figured out, which it is, but that does tend to ignore all the detail.
This. It sounds less like they are "power gamers" and more like "achievement gamers" -- they want the "dungeon cleared!" celebration, the next level, and the sweet magical items from their shopping lists as fast as possible, and they're ignoring anything that doesn't get them there.
It's not a *wrong* style of gaming, it just sounds like it's not the style you're looking for (and maybe not the style the rest of the group is looking for?). That's a conversation -- what do they want to make sure they get in a game, what do you want to make sure you get, and is there a way to include both?
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I have a strict 'no looking things up on the internet' rule when we play. It's never gone any further than that.
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Yeah I would give them the stink eye for looking up things they havent identified in game on the net. Since they seem to love using skills make them use their knowledges and other skills to identify monsters, curses, diease, etc.
I am going to take hell for this but, when I GM I tend to say no to 3PP and supplemental class options and archetypes unless I am familiar with them and have a good grasp on how they work.
I'd make sure to have a table talk about these things. If the two players are running over everybody its best to make sure they know they are dominating the game and making it less fun for everyone. During game call them out on meta-gaming such as looking up things they have not identified and asking them not to do that. Also, make sure and encourage and empower the other players to participate in the game.
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Haha, fair point. I didn't mention that they're both min-maxers and the rogue is using a third party archetype that I'm not familiar with.*Looks very hard for anything at all to do with power gaming*
Nope, can't find it.
Then why is he using it? Never allow third party content (or even first party content, really) unless you'll have the time to read over it, them to explain everything to you, or are already familiar with it.
And yes, looking up stuff online in session, that the charaters couldn't have the information on is unacceptable. Rule disputes is one thing. Looking up something like a monster's weakness is another.
I am going to take hell for this but, when I GM I tend to say no to 3PP and supplemental class options and archetypes unless I am familiar with them and have a good grasp on how they work.
Not from me...I don't allow anything 3PP or PF until I have read a hardcopy in my own time to understand it.
And looking stuff up on the net at the table is just unacceptable.
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For your two problem characters. You should probably get together with your other players and discuss what to do about them - and you should seriously consider the option of kicking them out of the game (you can still do pathfinder with 4!) since they obviously seem like dicks to the other players. If one of the two his the host, that's fine - just get someone else to host.
Before it comes to that however, you should at least tell your 2 players that they need to shape up because they're being considered to be dropped. Let the other players get a word in edgewise and stop trying to race through the game. Though, if you just up and tell them they're out with no warning that's a dick move in of itself.
Additionally, you need to immediately ban any use of computers for those 2. Looking up monsters in the middle of a fight is a big no-no.
As for your slow gamer - I recommend you sit down with this person and audit their character. You need to make it clear to the player that their delays are a serious issue with the game. Not only make sure they're not accidentally breaking the rules with their options, but also rework said character and take away all the extra companions/etc. Try to focus on making their character as simple as possible - or even offer to allow that person to retrain all their levels into a different class for free (sorcerer would be a great spellcasting option for them, since the actual amount of spells to choose from is limited).
If you have players hogging screen time in-combat and/or out, one trick is to make an index card for each player (and monster while in combat). In combat put them in initiative order. Out of combat, put them in DEX order. Every time they get to declare actions, pull out the cards and go around the table, allowing 1 action per cycle if out of combat.
Some good advice here. I would emphasize taking things in order (using Kwauss's suggestions) and also putting your foot down, as CommandoD suggested.
Also, it's not a "wall of text" if you use paragraphs.
Maybe I'm just repeating something, but I didn't read all the thread, I hope you forgive me. So, some advice:
1) They speed through encounters. Any time they enter a room- often before I can even describe what's in it (very frustrating!) - they go through their typical routine: they "perceive the room" (not individual things, just a general roll), the sorcerer detects magic and then they both list off whichever knowledges they have that could slightly be related (I.e. there's a statue, so it'll be "I have history, dungeoneering, engineering, geography..." etc. Even if I give them a hint and mention that it has a halo ). If nothing hits for them, they move on and start again. They do this before anyone else gets a chance to say anything or do anything, and they get pissed off if the other players do stuff that doesn't push the game ever forward.A great example is, in the last session, I had the characters run into a caravan that had been attacked the night before. A survivor (a new PC I was introducing) was burying his friends and called to the PC's for help. These two immediately go search the bodies and the caravan before the other characters get a chance to act.
Wow, that's totally calling for a surprise attack: he enter in a room, you don't have the time to describe, he says "detect magic", you say: "ok, you cast detect magic, now give me your flat footed AC, please".
Or, make him find a cursed items.For your example, you could had give them some haunt from the ghosts...
2) Sorcerer (necromancer)/ alchemist whose turns take forever. He has so many options with spells and potions, and now he's got a familiar and skeletons and a riding dog. His turns are getting out of hand. What can I do to speed them up? (I also don't think he's keeping track of spells per day, but that's a separate issue)
A 1 minute hourglase. Maybe 2 mins, no more. And keep track for him for his spells.
3) The sorcerer player will not separate character and player knowledge. A new curse does con damage? Google says it's either this one or this one, here's how we cure it. A monster that is made of stone? It's probably this one and it had DR and about 60 hp.
Change the things. Or tell him straight to not metagame. If he still metagame, then jump out his turn. Or deny the use of internet during session.
4) Rogue player gets upset if she doesn't get new loot after every session, or when something bad happens to her character. Specific example: she gets pissed at me when she fails her save against mummy rot, even though I let her know that moving around the mummy to get sneak attack damage would provide it an attack of opportunity.
"I've warned you, it's not my problem, you took the risk, you lose. If it doesn't like you, I'm sorry, next time be careful."
"Oh, you want loot? Sorry, there isn't any. Why you're pissed? The world is not around you or your loot."
Oh, and for the extensive knowledge checks/detect magic scans, etc., just introduce a few time-dependent elements. At least it makes the players think before running through a search routine of a knowledge skill survey.
I would come down hard on the rulebook searching, even going so far as instituting penalties anytime an OOC piece of knowledge is mentioned or used.
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Let me just say, it is important to NOT solve this via in game trickery. This is just going to create a DM vs Player atmosphere which will make things worse.
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There are some good suggestions so far. I think that the best suggestions are of the 'you are the GM, you make the rules' variety.
You're not running PFS, so change things on-the-fly whenever you want.
Have some 'extra special somethings' ready each session for spontaneous consequences due to PCs making poor choices.
Specifics:
1) Good stuff in this thread so far. I think Blackstorm has it; let them go ahead and barge in; teach them that there are serious consequences for barging in.
Present challenges in rooms the group must explore that only one party member (or maybe two working together) can solve/identify/defeat. Make sure you spread it around so that your two 'super-stars' will fall flat some of the time.
Maybe the Cleric or Bard that is hanging back is the only one that can figure something out or defeat the threat. Customize encounters.
In your caravan example, maybe the 'commoner' who was burying his friends is really a Neutral Good APL+5 barbarian who doesn't take kindly to strangers who try to rob his dead friends. Maybe whatever attacked them last night incapacitated him in the first round and his commoner family/friends couldn't defend themselves. You could have had him knock the two thieves senseless (subdual damage). It's kind of amazing what a Barbarian can do with a mundane shovel. Leave it to the rest of the party to decide if they want to negotiate their safe return.
2) Turns taking forever can happen for a lot of reasons. Not knowing your character is only a valid excuse for novice players. My groups all have the expectation that you will be ready for your turn. The consequence for not being ready: if you don't declare your action within 5 seconds, you automatically take the Delay action. Works great.
If a player needs help figuring out how to do this, help them out.
3) The other posters have it right regarding metaknowledge. Do not reward it. I suggest punishing it.
If a player says 'well, I know what that monster is and this is what it does' you can say, 'does your character know that? What does your character do?' If the PC makes choices in-game based on the player's metaknowledge, that PC gets punished for it.
Metagaming at the tables I play at is something that the monsters can all hear clearly, regardless of other distractions, and they all hate it with a passion. If the sorcerer can't keep himself from blurting out metaknowledge, he will eventually stop doing it if it results in him drawing the attention of the entire encounter to himself.
You say: "The Orc Barbarians hear you say that and charge you, ignoring the rest of your party. They see right away that you are clearly the most serious threat facing them because of your 'speshul magik knowluge.'"
Same thing works for declaring how many HP a character has left during combat. An awesome GM at GenCon taught us this one (the hard way).
In combat, we say things like: 'I'm hurt bad' 'I'm about to die' or 'It's just a scratch.' We don't want to tip off the enemy. "Oh! Dat wun only has one HP left! Git em!" It's like blood in the water. Sharks go right to it.
4) Yeah, I agree with the others. That's definitely tough cookies for her. Not every enemy has treasure and being careless has consequences. She will either learn how to be more careful with her tactical movement, or her Rogue will continue to take it on the chin. Tell her she should be grateful that it's only Mummy Rot.
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Let me just say, it is important to NOT solve this via in game trickery. This is just going to create a DM vs Player atmosphere which will make things worse.
I don't see it as trickery if it's explained in advance.
Rynjin has it right (as usual). The first thing to do is to talk to the players individually and as a group. Make your concerns known and work together for solutions.
Let me just say, it is important to NOT solve this via in game trickery. This is just going to create a DM vs Player atmosphere which will make things worse.
Trickery? You enter in a room and cast detect magic without let me even start to describe what's inside? It's not my fault, the things just happen. You get pissed because I've warned you that you could be hit from the mummy? Your problem.
On top of that, you're right: he should talk with the players, in front of the full group. If then there's no agree, some serious countermeasures should be taken.
Not everybody likes the RP playstyle, but at the table all players must have funny, DM included. So, it's more a question of coming to an agreement, that however should be from both parts.
I was really aggressive, just because I can't stand players that try to cheat on DM's work.
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What is this? A game of 12-year-olds?
Anyways...
1) Preemptive DM & Skill checks and running from room to room? and... Searching dead bodies before helping the guy bury them?
There are consequences to such things. Suppose that man burying the bodies is "greatly offended" at their behavior and tells anyone who hears it after they leave. As a result, the 15th level Ranger-Warden (or local lord) of the area confronts these "looters" and the rest of the town refuses anything to them. Can't buy anything, can't sell anything, can't get a place to stay, etc... And let's say the info spreads to many towns. Nothing lower than despicable grave-robbers.
As I recall, Detect Magic requires one to stare at something for a while to begin to figure out more than simple auras. A few rounds of staring would be odd. as would walking around "perceiving" everything. You have to walk around getting a closer look at things to perceive specific things (like secret doors and wall carvings). You just can't perceive everything from the doorway and it may take a long time. Maybe the tavern has some higher-level patrons who see right through their scheme. How many of them would like to be scoped out? Screw that! Ever consider that the NPC's make their Spellcraft check to ID a spell being cast?
2) Sorcerer taking too long.
Play out the combat in close to real time. Say, "The Orc is charging you with a battle axe and you have about 6 seconds to react." Otherwise, in RP'ing situations, the story moves forward. "That frozen, blank look you have is unnerving the other tavern patrons." Or, have an NPC's question him while he is looking up something. The NPC reacts appropriately and the PC's reputation suffers. While he's deciding what to use, the others take care of business and leave the building (leaving him behind). YOU can keep track of his spells. You know what level he is.
3) Google?
No wonder why he takes so long. I am with the others, no googling at the table. Or, just make the diseases your own variety and change it ever so slightly. Call it something new the townsfolk came up with. That'll likely piss the person off, but so be it. I'd be careful of such gamers because such perfectionists don't want to be wrong and are prone to eventual cheating and fudging rolls. (had one back in college.)
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Let me just say, it is important to NOT solve this via in game trickery. This is just going to create a DM vs Player atmosphere which will make things worse.Trickery? You enter in a room and cast detect magic without let me even start to describe what's inside? It's not my fault, the things just happen. You get pissed because I've warned you that you could be hit from the mummy? Your problem.
On top of that, you're right: he should talk with the players, in front of the full group. If then there's no agree, some serious countermeasures should be taken.
Not everybody likes the RP playstyle, but at the table all players must have funny, DM included. So, it's more a question of coming to an agreement, that however should be from both parts.
I was really aggressive, just because I can't stand players that try to cheat on DM's work.
Like I said, trying to "outplay" the PCs is just going to create a hostile environment. It's one thing to play against PC weaknesses and expectations - that's just keeping the players on their toes and not complacent. It's another thing to go "Well if the PC is just going to be that way, let's see how he deals with THIS" that's when you've created a player vs GM environment (and I know what that looks like because I've been in one).
In my opinion - all play should cease until you've dealt with the problem. Trying to solve it in game is just rubbing salt into the wound.
I know the problem you are going through. Before a campaign starts, I type a list of house rules and a list of sources that I will allow. If I don't have the source, it isn't allowed. These do not change during the campaign. If someone is metagaming I don't hesitate to change the hit points, vulnerabilities, or abilities of a monster. Before I allow archetypes or prestige classes, they have to be cleared. Some one not keeping track of their spells is a pain because it gives you an additional thing to keep track of. I once had a player that was getting more crits then the other 4 players and my NPCs combined (one of the other players had a scimitar of keenness), I just made everyone roll dice and not pick them up until I had looked at them, his number of crits decreased. I talked with him, but he was not receptive. In 37 years of gaming, he was the only one who wasn't willing to come to some kind of agreement, so hopefully talking with the two players will help. As a GM you have to put a lot of time and effort into your campaign, so if the game isn't fun for you and your other players,then get rid of the problem players.
Sadly your two problem players are bumming me out as well. I am sorry for you having to play with them. They are not doing anything "wrong" objectively, but subjectively they are looting, entitled a$$hats I would not wish to play with. And I've just exposed myself as opinionated and bigoted. Go figure.
Like every other thread like this, and as posted upthread: yada yada talk to them, yada yada appeal to their sense of group fun yada yada if they can't moderate their behaviour nuke them from orbit yada yada
My confidence is bolstered by oceanshield wolf. I'm going to expose myself too.
I would not play with these guys. Period, full stop.
Doesn't mean they are bad players or bad people, just not for me.
BTW I thought your thread title was fine.
do we actually know if this is over table or over IP? hard to stop google when you're playing over the internet.
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Rynjin wrote:
*Looks very hard for anything at all to do with power gaming*
Nope, can't find it.
Haha, fair point. I didn't mention that they're both min-maxers and the rogue is using a third party archetype that I'm not familiar with.
Then why is he using it? Never allow third party content (or even first party content, really) unless you'll have the time to read over it, them to explain everything to you, or are already familiar with it.
I +1 all these.
Never use 3PP stuff if your new to GMing and barily familiar with the game.
There is a big difference between min/maxers and Power gamers.
Min/Max is just allotting your stats to the best and grabbing the most useful tools to that class.
Power gamers are people who do the above but then make it their personal mission to break the game and make a DM near useless other then be his personal punching bag for the hell they are about to unleash. They are Rule lawyers who Abuse Read as Written to create a monstrosity of a character. They dig for those obscure feats, spells, and item synergy and like to push the limits until it breaks off. These are not people who go search a room looking for stuff....these are the people who have found some way to conveince a world renown smithy to craft them the best s$#+ for free and down right mindraped the worlds best enchanter to give them gear beyond their levels due to a good display on a silent image. These guys turns don't take 3x as long as others....no one else gets another turn because now the world belongs to them and they are currently in the process of ripping apart the fabric of your plane and creating their own plane where they are the God of.....
No you haven't been on a receiving end of a power gamer yet.
What the OP is dealing with is people who are more about completion then Role play. They want to fulfill thier roles the optimal way. THis is actually not a bad thing. I have seen a table of goofy ass role players never make it through the first dungeon because the off the wall role-play of some mentally challenged character. IE: "I'm role playing a impatient character so while your in the middle of a fight I'm going to open the door to the next room and see what is in there." next thing you know he has pulled the next room and your group TPK....glad the Role player had fun.
You actually need someone in the group keeping others on track. I would tell the 2 to dial it back a bit and let the other characters do things. Tell them your wanting to let others have a chance to make some decisions.
I would not abhor them though as a DM. Main reason is they keep the story progressing. Even if it is just getting the group through the dungeon. Most the time that progresses the story further just as role playing does.
Now for them to get mad at their own mistakes is a personal problem.
Just talk to them and air your grievances. Ask them to tone it down a bit and let some of the others have a moment to think and do something before you progress it further. I'm a Min/maxer who plays Tier 1 classes. I've had the same talk with my DM. Sometimes I can formulate a plan that trivializes something...I wait to see what the group suggests and then I mention my plan. If they want to use my plan we do...if they do not we use the other plan. But if the group starts to fail I go with my plan to "save the day" sort to speak.
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Here is the actual definition of a powergamer:
Powergaming (or power gaming) is a style of interacting with games or game-like systems with the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as (in video games, boardgames, and roleplaying games) storytelling, atmosphere and camaraderie. Due to its focus on the letter of the rules over the spirit of the rules, it is often seen as unsporting, un-fun, or unsociable. This behaviour is most often found in games with a wide range of game features, lengthy campaigns or prize tournaments such as role-playing, massively multiplayer or collectible games
RPG Power Gaming
Powergaming in roleplaying games can take several forms. One form is the deliberate creation of optimal player characters (PCs), with the aim of maximising the power the player wields in the game world by way of their avatar. This is known as min-maxing, due to the practice of balancing the PC's abilities through maximising desirable or "powerful" traits while minimising underpowered or unuseful traits. Such characters often draw criticism for not fitting the theme and tone of the game world or for being difficult to develop appropriate challenges for. Another form of power-gaming involves a focus on acquiring power during game progression, often by acquiring powerful equipment or unusual abilities. This lends itself to gameplay which is materialistic (and often, in the context of the game world, arguably amoral) and can frustrate other players who are looking to interact with the game world and the game story and not merely acquire loot.[2]
Powergamers in RPGs are often described as "munchkins", possibly due to a perception that this style of play is more common in younger (shorter) players.
Notice:
Another form of power-gaming involves a focus on acquiring power during game progression, often by acquiring powerful equipment or unusual abilities.hese are the people who have found some way to conveince a world renown smithy to craft them the best s&&$ for free and down right mindraped the worlds best enchanter to give them gear beyond their levels due to a good display on a silent image.
This is known as min-maxing, due to the practice of balancing the PC's abilities through maximising desirable or "powerful" traits while minimising underpowered or unuseful traits.
Power gamers are people who do the aboveThe above:
Min/Max is just allotting your stats to the best and grabbing the most useful tools to that class.
aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as (in video games, boardgames, and roleplaying games) storytelling, atmosphere and camaraderie.
These guys turns don't take 3x as long as others....no one else gets another turn because now the world belongs to them and they are currently in the process of ripping apart the fabric of your plane and creating their own plane where they are the God of.....
No Thomas I made a Very good example of the attitude of a power gamer.
Munchkin, Ass, power gamer.....they are the same thing by definition.
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Wraithstrike made a cool thread a long time ago defining the terms power-gamer, optimizer, and munchkin.
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Most of this stuff is just a matter of putting your foot down. Hard to do as a new GM, I know, but you have to draw the line.
1. Ignore them until you finish your intro. Tell them that it's rude to interrupt you, and you will not accept any die rolls, spell results, or anything else until you are finished setting the scene.
2. Get a timer from an old board game or a stopwatch. Set what you consider to be an appropriate time limit, and if the PC hasn't decided what he's doing, he's delaying his action, then go to the next combatant until he figures his stuff out.
3. Tell him flat out that this is unacceptable. Ban phones and tablets at the table if you have to. His sorcerer doesn't have Google. Also, remember you can homebrew. Feel free to change anything written in the books. DCs, damage, cures, monster stats ... Honestly, if I'd been at your table, player or no, I'd've looked over and said 'what kind of stupid bulls**t is that?!'
4. Not much to do with this one besides saying 'stop being a baby'. Being a badass hero isn't pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows. Find out what fictional media (comics, cartoons, movies) she likes, and ask her how interesting it would be if the main character simply strutted through the whole movie without suffering any adversity. "Yeah, wasn't LotR great? 30 minutes of watching Frodo walk through fields of daisies, petting bunnies, before tossing the One Ring into the Chocolate Volcano."
As far as the 3PP archetype goes, when you're a new GM, stick to the CRB until you get the hang of it. Yeah, it's annoyingly restrictive, but you gotta walk before you can run. When you get a feel for the game, get a printed/written/copied ... er, copy of any 3PP or unfamiliar material for you to look over and approve (or not) at your leisure.
Wraithstrike made a cool thread a long time ago defining the terms power-gamer, optimizer, and munchkin.
Everybody defines these differently too. To my personal definitions, they're at least #3 is munchkinism because it's outright cheating.
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Having Google to look it up is on a completely different level. It is not Meta Gaming...It is like Zhayne says....plain cheating.
Having a Player who explains any creatures stats without making any kind of identification needs to be brought up.
Like hey until you make a successful Know check don't be giving out information.
You as a DM could play an experiment on them. If they do it again switch it to something oppisite he said.
It has DR/5 Piercing....give it DR/5 Bludgeoning....put a potato in his tail pipe....if he complains say: "If you made a proper Know check you would have known this was a different creature or a special creature."
Also if you want to be mean when in initiative force them to give up a action when they blurt out your information via Cheating or Meta Gaming. If the Sorcerer looses his Standard action for being a cheater he will be salty but will learn quickly not to be a douche.
True it is cheating but even this comes down to a social contract and gamer culture that not everyone will share. My little cousin did this when he played with us for the first time, googled a monster for vulnerabilities. He had no idea it was wrong, he was thinking of the game like a video game where you might google a certain level of you get stuck.
Exactly^
Wraithstrike made a cool thread a long time ago defining the terms power-gamer, optimizer, and munchkin.
I remember that. People were, and still are, using them interchangeably, and it is hard to have a conversation if someone says "fork" but means spoon.. :)
Having a Player who explains any creatures stats without making any kind of identification needs to be brought up.
People who are aware of certain creatures vulnerabilities is a given. Once you play DnD enough, you start getting a good feel for certain monsters.
Get attacked by a electric shock from out of no where? Probably a Will o the wisp, don't bother getting out your magic Timmy, it's immune to everything except Magic Missile and Maze, but we could use a glitterdust or invis purge. Etc.
Expecting players to "forget" what they know about monsters is imo stupid since 1) Takes a lot to actually remember that stuff and 2) Discourages people from getting interested in learning the lore or paying attention to what you're actually fighting. (which is different than changing up stats on a monster, my DM for instance made a "Super will o the wisp" to surprise us with. But you should not be trying to 'counter' player knowledge, that's just vindictive imo).
Having a Player who explains any creatures stats without making any kind of identification needs to be brought up.People who are aware of certain creatures vulnerabilities is a given. Once you play DnD enough, you start getting a good feel for certain monsters.
Get attacked by a electric shock from out of no where? Probably a Will o the wisp, don't bother getting out your magic Timmy, it's immune to everything except Magic Missile and Maze, but we could use a glitterdust or invis purge. Etc.
Expecting players to "forget" what they know about monsters is imo stupid since 1) Takes a lot to actually remember that stuff and 2) Discourages people from getting interested in learning the lore or paying attention to what you're actually fighting. (which is different than changing up stats on a monster, my DM for instance made a "Super will o the wisp" to surprise us with. But you should not be trying to 'counter' player knowledge, that's just vindictive imo).
The players just need to realize they are not their characters. As someone who GM's I almost always know what the GM is describing, but I don't let the rest of the party know until the knowledge check is made. I have never known anyone to not want to learn about the game because they could not use outside knowledge.
I have an elf in my game that just shot the doorman of the thieves ' guild because he was there and...free xp, right? Now the party will encounter limping elves with bloody noses all over town. I presume this will get a good laugh as well as warn the player that actions have consequences. Hopefully the good aligned characters will say a word or two to the miscreant. I try to get the message across without spoiling the fun.
Similarly, as said before, the grieving bystander gives you choices..." He grabs your hand holding the ring you just got of the dead woman and squeezes hard, gosh, this guy is STRONG...."