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One of the most common problems that I seem to see on the forums here and on Reddit is this one: Your GM or one of the players is not enjoyable to play with. They metagame, whine and complain, abuse the rules, or are otherwise simply unpleasant to play with. But, there's a catch; you're good friends outside the game. While in a normal setting you might simply walk away from the group or ask the offending party to leave, that may not be an option here.
I had one session wherein a player - and friend - drank somewhere around a dozen bottles of alcoholic apple cider, and spent most of the session getting cheese poof powder all over...well, everything, really. I had to hand wash my dice after that session, and throw out my character sheet. The player in question ended the session face-down on the carpet - he had somehow ended up under his chair - attempting to make his dice rolls in that position. We decided it was for the best to cut that session short. We later had to have a small intervention on the subject of his drinking at the table; he's since cut back significantly on his alcohol.
What are your "Bad Friend RPG" stories? How did you resolve them, or are they still ongoing?
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this thread is going to be a blunderbuss packed full of drama llamas and hurt feelings
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I don't play with people like that, thank goodness. The worst I have is a guy who's played over 25 years and still has to be reminded what saving throws are. He also keeps his dice in the bag until it's his turn to do something, then he fishes and fishes around until he finds the one he wants. Oh, the horror.
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this thread is going to be a blunderbuss packed full of drama llamas and hurt feelings
That's what the popcorn is for!
In all seriousness, I would like to hear what problems others have had to deal with, and especially how they dealt with them. It is extremely hard to tell someone that, while you enjoy them under most circumstances, you do not like their behavior in a specific instance. I would like to know how others have acknowledged that discrepancy, and if anyone was able to somehow manage a situation where both parties were able to walk away relatively happy, I would especially love to hear how they managed it.
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Probably the most important lesson I've learned over the years is that occasionally friends and gaming doesn't mix. Sometimes you just want different things, and it's important to accept that there's nothing wrong with that.
The biggest mistake you can make is to assume you're "playing Pathfinder" (or whatever game you're playing) - it's far more than that, the whole dynamic of the group around the table can end up moulding the game far more than the rulebook does.
Just like you might not go to a football game with friends if you hate football, or might not go to watch a movie you hate if friends are going to see it, it isn't wrong to bow out of a game either. Feeling forced into something you don't like is a great way to ruin a friendship, and unless you're physically shackled together spending that time apart is always an option. As we grow older that tends to happen anyway, so there's nothing wrong with getting used to it early by spending game night with a different group of people.
The biggest way this has affected my own gaming is that I now play in two weekly groups - a long term group where we enjoy each other's company more than we enjoy the game, and a group I put together just for a single campaign and then disband. The latter group is where I decide what I want to play and then find people who want to play it, rather than always fitting in with the group. In turn, that takes the pressure off in the long-term group as I don't feel the need to drag everyone there into a game they may not enjoy.
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Very bluntly and specifically.
I usually say "Your behavior during the game is intolerable. If you don't clean up your act, I will not play with you again. Nor will any of the others. If you don't like it, you don't have to play."
If he is too much of a baby to understand that we can still go out and hang outside the game, I don't need him as a friend.
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Sometimes you have to walk. My best friends that I love to spend time with are the worst gamers ever. Sadly, I had to break off with them and form a new group that I took the time to screen and form. There is a point where you have to decide if your playstyle is worth giving up to keep rolling with someone you dont match up with. I can still go fishing or drinking or anything else with my good buds but now I get my gaming fix too.
I had a game with a friend of mine once, and we both drank a LOT (like Fafhrd & Gray Mouser quantities), and it ended up being fun as hell. On the flip side, I've played with teetotallers (TOZ, I'm looking at you!) and kept my total game consumption down to a couple of beers, and we all had a nice time. My current game with JAM412 and our Kuwaiti arsonist friend (when he's not on a boat) is somewhere in between, and I also enjoy it.
I've also been in games in which everyone is (mostly) sober, except one drunken stooge is too thick-headed to play. They were noticeably less fun for anyone else.
So, anecdotally, I feel very confident in saying it's not the amount of alcohol that ruins a game. It's the amount relative to the amount the other players are having.
I could relate stories until people stopped playing tabletop RPGs out of sheer depression. The incidents I've had over the years...
Pretty much, a lot of the time, they've resulted in groups breaking up or people being ejected from the group. As I grow older, I find it's easier to just... be rid of people. I don't have the willpower to fight the long battles in gaming groups anymore.
That said... If you want to talk about gaming gone wrong, read the stories of this guy and be amazed he's not a psychotic mass-murderer.
I only really have one "gaming gone wrong" story and it did not end in a happy resolution. It involved a player, who was also the GM of another game being quite unhappy with me for not houseruling something for him so his Summoner could be even more powerful, and ended in the dissolution of both games (his game because he apparently couldn't stand to play with me any more, and I dunno the other players were guilty by association or something because logic, and my game because everyone was too bummed out to keep going), and me not talking to the guy for almost a year except when I absolutely had to.
Haven't had any other problems yet and hope to have no more.
Haven't had any issues with people's out of game behavior such as drunkenness and whatnot at all.
We have yet to see how this plays out in real life, but my son had his character kill another PC in a game last night. The player of the deceased character had killed a paralyzed NPC who he felt was "dead weight", despite the fact he knew the paralysis would wear off. The player was clearly livid, but held his composure, though he threatened to roll up a character specifically designed to kill my son's character. My son has offered to have the deceased resurrected, but he's yet to get a response.
Thankfully for my sanity, the only real "open conflict at the gaming table" story I ever had was one incident where we had a guy, I think a friend of one of my old group's players, over to GM for us for a one-shot. I don't remember any of it, just commiserating with two of my players about how long everything was taking to get started, how we weren't getting anywhere, how the GM kept calling pauses, and a few other blurry complaints, and it ending with the guy leaving and everyone spending an hour talking about how horrible that experience was. Thankfully, after that incident we never saw him again.
I have one former player who was an attention hog but at the same time one of those horribly passive players who won't take initiative on their own. The guy was the epitome of the "Nice Guy" stereotype, in nearly every way. Thankfully he's not in my group anymore, and has made himself more than not welcome due to out-of-game shenanigans.
We're having some incidents with one player in one of my current groups regarding rules lawyering and arguing with the GM in-game, but I'm hoping that after the last incident when he caused half the players to step away (we play via Skype) while he finagled with the GM, he'll get the message that it's pissing people off. If not, I know at least one of the other players is very close to bluntly unloading on him.
Actually, our gaming group nearly broke up very early on in its formation. The arguement was spawned over misunderstood intentions and a misunderstanding of 3.5's grappling rules.
My knight found his binder frozen in some spell (Sepia Snake Sigil if I remember). Since the librarian was unalarmed, my character decided it must not be that dangerous. She secured the artifact the binder was supposed to guard (to prevent it from being stolen), checked his "research" books to see if it mentioned the artifacts they were researching, and then left.
Player of the binder missed several of my key statements (if the book doesn't mention the artifacts or myth of the artifacts, she moves on) and concluded that she was stealing and snooping through his books. After in-game PvP--involving him ambushing her in her bed, grappling her, etc. (not creepy AT ALL since this was the second session we had played together)--the after-game feedback turned into a yelling match with him insisting I broke every knightly code and couldn't roleplay the lawful character.
I don't do well with conflict. I left the room, and nearly quit the game then and there.
I forget what resolved it, but it took 2-3 RL days. I believe that once he calmed down about the supposed theft of the artifact, we were able to discuss what my character actually did and the motivations behind it.
I'd completely forgotten about that incident.
I had an incident once, between a player who had been a friend since elementary school, and my ex (who I was still friends with). The ex was taking her role-playing very seriously, and decided to take offense at something the friend's character had done. So she immobilized his character and began discussing horrific punishments to inflict upon him. This lead to a shouting match, a torn up character sheet, and my not having both of them at the same game again.
I find that the best approach to deal with these incidents is remain calm yourself. In cases where it's an argument between players, try to talk it out, but be willing to accept that some people don't game together well. In cases where someone does something offensive, or unacceptable, talk to them about it, and let them know. Try always to be fair, but firm.
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On reflection, I think the key to resolving any conflict with friends is communication. It requires both parties to be equally invested in a resolution. It also requires compromise. Nobody likes to feel dimissed, or bullied into a supposed solution.
Also, remember these things are part of a game. You, and your friends, should be more important than the characters.
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Also, remember these things are part of a game. You, and your friends, should be more important than the characters.
That's the part people forget.
Also true.
Also, remember these things are part of a game. You, and your friends, should be more important than the characters.That's the part people forget.
When I was younger(and the creatively flowed much stronger), I and most of the other DM's in my group put the game above all else. We waded through a lot of un-fun rules and scenarios because for whatever reason, it fit some delusional idea of what "the game" was supposed to be.
These days, if it ain't fun, I speak up about it. Our current DM is still kind of stuck in the old way of thinking; worrying about fantastical situations where someone's character might be OP(all while oblivious to the ones in our game that ARE), worrying that some random person MIGHT try and work the system(despite the decades plus of time we've gamed together, and the trust built on that), and has all of these goofy arbitrary restrictions in place.
One example:
"When making your character for this game, you MUST decide race and class BEFORE you roll your stats. Then, all stats must be rolled in order, using the Dice Pool method."
But what if you make a human wizard, and roll a 7 for your INT?
"It'll make for an "interesting character, lol."
This kind of thing was the norm back when we were figuring out how to play the game, but now that a few decades have passed, this stuff just grates on my nerves. Another player and I openly protested this rule, based basically on "it's not fun to play a gimped character." He ignored us. So, we're working on it.
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None. 4 months of non stop, no saves, unlimited domination spells from a deity that could not be blocked by even other deities on the girl I was dating at the time.
"4 months"?!?!?!? You're exceedingly patient...
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One example:
"When making your character for this game, you MUST decide race and class BEFORE you roll your stats. Then, all stats must be rolled in order, using the Dice Pool method."
My group had a houserule that any stats you roll, you keep.
I rolled a solid set of stats that were under 10. I created a goblin commoner named Cannonfodder Trapfinder. I made him a few levels beneath the rest of the group so he'd die quickly.
He's currently level 9. He won't die.
One example:
"When making your character for this game, you MUST decide race and class BEFORE you roll your stats. Then, all stats must be rolled in order, using the Dice Pool method."My group had a houserule that any stats you roll, you keep.
I rolled a solid set of stats that were under 10. I created a goblin commoner named Cannonfodder Trapfinder. I made him a few levels beneath the rest of the group so he'd die quickly.
He's currently level 9. He won't die.
Ain't that the truth! I've rolled up super invinco-tanks that didn't make it two sessions, and have had scrap, last minute, rolled up on the spot interim characters last whole campaigns.
Every group has their own way of doing stats. For years, ours has always been roll 4d6, drop the lowest, repeat 7 times, drop the lowest. The Dice Pool method sounded interesting at first, until "roll in order" got tacked on made it unnecessarily stressful.
One of my players, and a friend to boot, had a younger brother who wanted to try D&D. Very smart math-wise and a good head for rules, but utterly lacking in social awareness and tact. (He has a fairly extreme form of autism.)
It worked out well enough for a few months, but then he got paranoid. He became convinced that I was out to get his characters, and eventually started threatening me. Autistic or not, I don't DM under those circumstances, so I booted him. Which enraged his parents, and resulted in his sister dropping out of the group due to family drama.
So I resolved things as best I could, but boy do I regret inviting that kid to our game in the first place. Never again will I think "Well if this player doesn't work out, I can always just boot him."
I hate family drama and how stupid people get over it. But then I am incredibly unattached to my family so maybe I just don't get it.
I think that's probably a big part of why you aren't affected by it. I'm the same way. I'm not close to my relatives at all, and when I hear that so and so did something and somebody else is upset, I just shrug. If it's not me, it's not my concern.
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I have had issues like these come up in various games over the years, so I am now proactive about setting the tone and expectations of the game up front with everyone and have a discussion about what everyone wants to get out of the game before it begins in my real life games. This seems to at least set up a line of communication and a way of discussing when things break down and lets you in on everyone's maturity level to some degree.
Another thing I have started to do, which is something I have learned from my military experience, is to do an AAR of sorts after a session. To get and give feedback from my players. It varies system to system but two things that I always reward are the best role player and I give specifics as to why I rewarded that person, and I reward an MVP. The MVP is voted on by the players, not be me unless there is a tie. And everyone gets a chance to say why they voted for a particular person. I find this helps build our group and talk about things that went well or not so well either mechanically, or socially at the table.
In the end communication is the key, and if you are in a group of mature people this is usually not too difficult.
Well, his parents are to blame. So what if he's autistic?
As the father of an autistic 3-year old boy, I find the sheer amount of ignorance and callousness in this statement overwhelming.
How is "booting him" exactly "helping him handle his problem"?
Look, if you really are so close to several autistic people, you of all people should know that things are not that easy, and that blaming parents (especially if you know nothing at all about the case) is exceedingly myopic. Unless you are incredibly unattached, of course.
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How is "booting him" exactly "helping him handle his problem"?
Look, if you really are so close to several autistic people, you of all people should know that things are not that easy, and that blaming parents (especially if you know nothing at all about the case) is exceedingly myopic. Unless you are incredibly unattached, of course.
I think you took some things out of context if you look at what was originally written the "autistic" individual was threatening the DM, which is what got him expelled from the game.
Though I am curious what form of "extreme" autism the individual had that he was able to function in the game that long. When I think "Extreme" autism I think Rain Man, it sounds more like this guy just had aspergers or some lesser ASD.
Autism is an extremely variable condition (or rather, a very broad spectrum of similar disorders). There aren't identical cases; every afflicted person displays different traits and problems. An extreme form of autism may in fact allow the person to participate in a game but create huge difficulties in other areas. Not every deep autist is Rain Man.
In regards to the issue of threats, my gripe was not with Tequila Sunrise. I can understand that no one likes to be threatened, and it was his right to expell that player (even if I think that, being aware of the extreme autism of the individual, showing more patience and understanding would have been the right thing to do). No, what hit my nerve was Hama's remark.
Anyway, I don't want to keep threadjacking the thread. I merely wanted to express my feelings about the issue, and that's what I did. Now, back to lurking.
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How is "booting him" exactly "helping him handle his problem"?
Look, if you really are so close to several autistic people, you of all people should know that things are not that easy, and that blaming parents (especially if you know nothing at all about the case) is exceedingly myopic. Unless you are incredibly unattached, of course.
It's not. However, autism doesn't mean he can get away with threatening people. Consequences exist.
He should have talked to him first, sure, but if a guy threatened me, whatever disorder he might have, I'd probably have a problem with him.Parenting is a hard, thankless job. Especially if the kid has a mental problem. But it is still a job. And if they couldn't explain to the kid that threatening someone is not a good thing, well sorry, they are not doing their job properly.
Yes, I know very well the kind of job that parenting an autistic child is. My son will be 4 next august, and he's beginning to speak now. He's not an extreme autist, thankfully, but the way we as parents communicate and relate with him is perforce different. He's very intelligent, observant and perceptive, and he communicates through diverse methods he has developed, but he still does not feel the need to communicate verbally nor he really understands spoken language 100%. When he throws some tantrum in the street or at a store, which he often does due to a combination of not fully understanding our explanations and his development being akin to a child in the Terrible Twos, my wife and I have to put up on a daily basis with the judgmental stares of other parents or even people who don't have the faintest idea of what is like to have children of their own, stern looks that imply just the same bs you are spreading: spoiled brat... bad parents. This coming from self-absorbed people who don't know about the kid's plight and wouldn't care even if they knew.
So excuse me, and I really don't want to offend you, but you thinking that it's a matter of parents failing to explain that threatening people is not ok only shows me that you know nothing about autism, even if you know several people with this disorder.
I'm not suggesting that autistic people should have carte blanche to do everything they want without consequences, far from it, but blaming the parents without knowing the full picture strikes as really offensive to me. It's like if I blamed your parents for failing to instill in you a modicum of empathy and compassion towards individuals with a severe neural disorder. I'm not entitled to judge that, and neither are you.
On the other hand, maybe I am oversensitive to this topic.
Well, his parents are to blame. So what if he's autistic?As the father of an autistic 3-year old boy, I find the sheer amount of ignorance and callousness in this statement overwhelming.
Tactlessness is pretty much Hama's MO, regardless of topic. :/
What got my goat at the time was that the parents made no visible effort to get my side of the story. The father has anger issues; I think the mother is capable of greater insight than she showed, but she's also an advocate for autism and probably accustomed to insensitive people as you are. She probably assumed the worst, and sprung directly into defend-my-child mode.
Nowadays I mostly just feel bad for their whole family. In addition to the hardship of raising an autistic son, they're unhappily married -- and Catholic, so likely to remain so. And my friend -- I don't really know if she still qualifies, because I haven't talked to her in several years -- she struggles with depression. Working a low-wage job and remaining dependent on her parents can't help that problem.
Oh, and as the grand finale of this whole fiasco, I may have unwittingly broken her heart -- you don't have to be autistic to be oblivious to social cues!
Though I am curious what form of "extreme" autism the individual had that he was able to function in the game that long. When I think "Extreme" autism I think Rain Man, it sounds more like this guy just had aspergers or some lesser ASD.
I'm not overly knowledgable about autism, so 'extreme' might be the wrong word. All I really know is the kid is a wiz at math and memorization, and has this thing that his mother described to me as 'prognosia.' Which means that he can recognize voices, and even mimic them like the dude from Police Academy, but he's face-blind. Apparently he has an aunt who doesn't look anything like his mother, but since they have similar voices he has a lot of trouble telling them apart.
I'm not suggesting that autistic people should have carte blanche to do everything they want without consequences, far from it, but blaming the parents without knowing the full picture strikes as really offensive to me.
Snorri, it would be great if you refrain from puttings words into my mouth. I never said that those parents are "angels" or anything of the sort. I never said that Tequila Sunrise should take that responsibility (in fact, I stated that I think he was well in his rights to get rid of that player). What I did say, and I adhere to it, is that no one can blame the parents of a person with a severe neural disorder without knowing more about the situation. I do not know if they were doing a good job or not, and neither do you nor Hama. In many cases of autism, it is not a matter of explaining that certain things are not right, or of teaching them. They may know that, and still be unable to do anything about their behavior. Autism is a disorder, which means that the afflicted person does not have control over it. Sometimes reasons and explanations, knowing right from wrong, is not enough.
Likewise, the fact that those parents became enraged and the sister left the game does not make them automatically guilty of bad parenthood/sisterhood. Some reactions from the outer world can become a huge problem for autistic people and send them into a regression or a deeper withdrawal into their inner world, so it is at the very least comprehensible that they reacted less than cheerfully.
That said, I do believe that the relatives of autistic people need to be very aware of where their limits lie and which activities are appropriate for them and which are not. That's why I don't think Tequila Sunrise is to blame for his reaction.
Again, I will repeat just in case there are other brains in the OFF position besides mine. I'm not defending those parents. I'm just saying that it is unfair to condemn them with just the information we have.
Oh, also, pointing at someone's ignorance about one specific issue is not an offense in my neck of the woods. You can point all day long at my ignorance of American football or quantum physics, you won't see me offended. Though I admit that my first post was too biting, I didn't insult Hama in any way in my last post(at least I'm not aware if I did, and if that is the case I apologize). I was just disagreeing with him about how, in my personal experience, autism works. Autism is a very serious problem with profound consequences in the lives of those affected and their relatives. Ignorance of its nature is commonplace and very detrimental to the relationship of autistic people with those more fortunate than themselves. I also would be blissfully ignorant of its realities if, unfortunately, I didn't had to learn much more than I ever wanted to know about it.
Edit: Tequila Sunrise's last post sheds some more light on the issue, and I thank him for not adding fuel into this fire.
Gaming groups can be an interesting dynamic. I've recently taken a break from the first weekly group I've had in a long time. After running a campaign for nearly 8 months - a period in which I considered the group my friends, as well as my players, I was simply getting burned out - so one of our players wanted to do a campaign. It lasted 3 weeks, and now they've apparently moved on from Pathfinder entirely.
I think as a player though, I was frustrated. What went from being on time every week turned into starting late and wrapping up early. All of the fear I had of the whole group falling apart after I had worked hard to keep everyone engaged may have started when I stopped GMing and became a player. I argued with one of my players over something basic that I was convinced I was right about - and turned out to be dead wrong. So I became the problem player. I of course apologized, but it didn't feel the same. Something changed.
Even though I had less experience with 3.5 Pathfinder, I tried to know the rules as well as I could before every game session. I tried to diplomatically point out major rules violations and got pushback, all the time. I stood firm, but I still listened to my players when I did something wrong. But this bred a little resentment, which came out in ugly fashion as I tried to argue that my third level wizard could cast 3rd-level spells based solely on the bonus spells granted by his Int modifier. A complete lapse. Instead, I felt like yet again, they were pushing, when I was clearly right. In that case, I was embarrassingly wrong - but I couldn't see it. I had been waiting for hours to play, and was just angry. I exploded. It was poor behavior, and even though I later apologized profusely, I felt ashamed. I should know better.
At this point, I know have very little interest in maintaining the group anymore - schedules seem to always conflict (I'm the only one who has no children and works regular hours), and I finally threw in the towel and wished them luck if they wanted to do something else. While I hope we remain friends, I'm looking now at possibly helping to establish a PFS presence in my local community instead. I really enjoy this particular game, and would like to continue playing it with folks who share that enthusiasm.
Apologies if these seems like a confessional or something, but I appreciate the opportunity to get some lingering things off my chest, and this thread seemed like an apt place to do so!