Magus advice for Mummy's Mask

[Jiggy]

After our second TPK in Mummy's Mask, my group brought in replacement characters on the fly so we could finish our session. Because of the semi-rushed circumstance, the GM is allowing us to make tweaks to our builds before the next session.

Not knowing what to make, I reached for nostalgia: my first RPG character, the character for which I bought my first mini, translated from a 4E swordmage to a Pathfinder magus.

His name is Khaved, and he's a tiefling who highly values magic and intellect, preferring them over things he would call brutish. Please keep this in mind when making suggestions.

So here's what I originally cobbled together:

STR 12
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 14
INT 16 (14+2)
WIS 10
CHA 06 (8-2)

Stats use a 20pt buy, and I went with my personal default of 16/14/14/12/10/8 because it's as close as a 20pt array can get to the Heroic NPC stat array of 15/14/13/12/10/8 (since that represents a "real" person in the game world). However, I'm open to the possibility of tweaking these numbers slightly.

I'm not interested in any of the magus archetypes, so no worries there.

Alternate racial traits include Prehensile Tail (because I'm not a sorcerer) and Scaled Skin (traded out non-fire resistances for +1 natural armor).

Character traits include Sphinx Riddler (campaign trait, don't even remember what it does, but it's related to intellectualism) and Clever Wordplay (to use INT for Diplomacy; very on-theme).

He's at 2nd level (where he started), with his first and only feat being Weapon Finesse. Currently uses a shortsword and a chain shirt.

Seems like the conventional wisdom assumes that 3rd level brings Dervish Dance; are there any other schools of thought for a DEX magus? (Partly because he's more of a Nethys guy than a Sarenrae guy, and the GM hasn't decided yet whether he'd let me apply it to a longsword instead.)

Should I tweak STR up to 13 so I can take Power Attack later? Should I go non-Dervish so I can use an actual light weapon and take Piranha Strike? What should I be building toward in the future?

All guidance appreciated, thanks!

[Dave Justus]

Since you are not interested in archetypes, why not just go 16 str, 14 dex, and take weapon focus instead of weapon finesse (same to hit bonus) and use your 3rd level feat for something better?

Extra Arcana or power attack would both be possible good choices.

[Jiggy]

Muscle-based beaters are something he'd call "brutish", so it would be weird for him to be one himself. Sticking to DEX-based. :)

[Drogos]

I'd use a kukri and piranha strike. A +1 enchantment can take the place of the dervish dance. 18-20 threat range is pretty key for a magus. I'd focus on intelligence for casting, though you'll never be as strong a caster as a wizard. In fact, I'd dump charisma even more to get a 17 intelligence. I'd almost be tempted to burn a feat on extra traits to get bruising intellect and pragmatic activator on the character as you describe him. Early on, you want to hit so you may want to hold off on piranha strike until 5th.

[Jiggy]

Ew, don't like the look of kukris. Could take EWP at 3rd for a wakizashi, though...

[Lessah]

Rapiers are the definition of 'class' and finesse over simple thuggery.

Conveniently, they also work with Weapon Finesse and the Agile enhancement. They also poses the desirable 18-20 critrange : )

[Akerlof]

How often are you going to be Spell Combatting?

As a 3/4 BAB character who takes a -2 to his attack routine, taking an extra penalty to your attack for a little extra damage from either Piranha Strike or Power Attack is unlikely to pay off. However, if you plan on doing mostly Frostbites instead of Spell Combated Shocking Grasps, then it might be worth it. You will still need to do something to add to your damage when you aren't adding a spell beyond even PA/Piranha Strike, though. For a Dex based character that means either Dervish Dance or Agile, because the game expects some extra damage beyond your weapon even as a secondary combatant.

Agile helps some, but it's strictly inferior to Dervish Dance.

I'd say it depends on your party and what you plan on doing with your character: Do you have one or two solid meleers and you'll be filling in for the most part and occasionally strategically exploding things? Or are you going to be the primary source of melee damage? In the former situation, you've got more flexibility and going with some sort of interesting Agile weapon works fine. In the latter, I'd definitely go the Dervish Dance route, possibly with Power Attack for mooks.

I haven't played (or played with) a normal magus into the mid levels, so I don't know how often Spell Recall allows you to Spellstrike with a damage spell. Is it enough to do in every fight, especially if you have more than 3 or 4 encounters in a day? I would say no to power attack when you're Spell Combating and Yes when you aren't. So if you aren't Spell Combating very often, then PA (or Piranha Strike) isn't worth much to you.

[Drogos]

The only drawback of the rapier is no piranha strike which makes it more important to get a 13 strength, because ultimately the magus is supposed to do melee damage which makes one of those feats necessary. Wakizashi obviously works, I'd just prefer not to use a feat on it since it is only 1 more damage on average.

[Te'Shen]

Jiggy wrote:

. . .

Not knowing what to make, I reached for nostalgia: my first RPG character, the character for which I bought my first mini, translated from a 4E swordmage to a Pathfinder magus.

His name is Khaved, and he's a tiefling who highly values magic and intellect, preferring them over things he would call brutish. Please keep this in mind when making suggestions.
. . .
I'm not interested in any of the magus archetypes, so no worries there.
. . . .

Well then, I will apologize beforehand.

I recommend the hexcrafter magus archetype. It gives you a few curse options on your spell list, which meshes in my mind for a tiefling, and gives you some stamina in the form of hexes that can be used more than once... again, suitable for a tiefling. I'm partial to evil eye + cackle. I hear slumber is very good, though it might not suite you. Cackle + fortune allows you to give everybody in the party two rerolls... giving you the Devil's own luck. >:)

Then again, if it doesn't fit with your vision, or if you prefer having spell recall to the spells and hexes, ignore me.

[YogoZuno]

A quick and easy mechanical suggestion...a gladius is slightly better than a short sword. For most purposes, it is exactly the same as a short sword, except it can do both slashing and piercing damage.

[EvilPaladin]

Somethings to consider:

Having a secondary weapon as a Sword Cane. It isn't necessarily a great choice for all magi[though a Frostbite or self-buff magus might be fine with the lower crit], but it is probably the classiest weapon in PF IMO. Yeah, everyone will know its a weapon due to the DC being too low, but they will probably know your short sword is a weapon too.

Might want to ask the GM if you can pick up the Quarterstaff of the Entwined Serpents at your local magic shop in the campaign at some point.

Also, what are you thinking of as far as a spellcasting focus for your magus? Self-buffing? Shocking Grasp-style Evoking? Frostbite-style debuffing?

[Rerednaw]

If you have room in your feats, consider Arcane Strike. For using your swift action in rounds when you won't be using it for magus arcana. Simple scaling damage bump and it doesn't ding your to hit.

Other options:
Wand Wielder Arcana. Wand of Truestrike in your off-hand. Or a wand of Vanish. Spendy so contingent on wealth/item crafting. But a nice way of making sure that one hit lands...or re-positioning.
Spam Arcane Accuracy?

Is your DM allowing Wyroot club shenanigans? None of my magus have but depending on how combat heavy your campaign is...

Have fun whatever you decide!

[Jiggy]

YogoZuno wrote:

A quick and easy mechanical suggestion...a gladius is slightly better than a short sword. For most purposes, it is exactly the same as a short sword, except it can do both slashing and piercing damage.

Might be a weird question, but... is it straight-bladed, or curved?

[Jiggy]

I think I may have miscommunicated the concept; seems I've given some folks the impression I was going for an aristocratic fop with a tophat and monocle who goes around declaring "I say!" in a British accent before wiggling a rapier or sword cane at you. I can see how I communicated that, but what I was going for was more of a science fair winner who rolls his eyes at the quarterback.

[Drogos]

A gladius is straight bladed. They are the Roman Legionaire sword.

[Jiggy]

Akerlof wrote:

How often are you going to be Spell Combatting?

Good question. My only past experience with a magus is seeing how my wife plays hers (just hit 5th level in PFS). She actually NEVER uses Spell Combat, instead usually beginning a fight by casting frostbite, advancing, and poking the bad guy with her chilly rapier for 2d6+4(ish) damage a few times. Basically, she uses frostbite as a damage-buff that lasts most of the combat (and proportionally more as she levels), with the occasional frigid touch for a high-priority target or a wand of magic missile for a backup ranged option.

She certainly seems to do alright.

Quote:

As a 3/4 BAB character who takes a -2 to his attack routine, taking an extra penalty to your attack for a little extra damage from either Piranha Strike or Power Attack is unlikely to pay off. However, if you plan on doing mostly Frostbites instead of Spell Combated Shocking Grasps, then it might be worth it. You will still need to do something to add to your damage when you aren't adding a spell beyond even PA/Piranha Strike, though. For a Dex based character that means either Dervish Dance or Agile, because the game expects some extra damage beyond your weapon even as a secondary combatant.

So if I don't do much Spell Combat, then PA/PS is probably good?

Quote:

Agile helps some, but it's strictly inferior to Dervish Dance.

How so? They both add DEX to damage, so...?

Quote:

I'd say it depends on your party and what you plan on doing with your character: Do you have one or two solid meleers and you'll be filling in for the most part and occasionally strategically exploding things? Or are you going to be the primary source of melee damage? In the former situation, you've got more flexibility and going with some sort of interesting Agile weapon works fine. In the latter, I'd definitely go the Dervish Dance route, possibly with Power Attack for mooks.

We've got a greatsword paladin, a zen archer, and a (not melee-focused) cleric. Plus me. :)

[Artanthos]

Lessah wrote:

Rapiers are the definition of 'class' and finesse over simple thuggery.

Conveniently, they also work with Weapon Finesse and the Agile enhancement. They also poses the desirable 18-20 critrange : )

A third alternative would be a 1 level dip into Aldori Swordlord, though you would have to wait until a higher level and is much easier to pick up as a kensai (EWP and WF are bonus feats at first level).

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

With a tiefling magus, there's no reason not to take the fiend flayer archetype, as it doesn't replace any existing class features.

[Jiggy]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

With a tiefling magus, there's no reason not to take the fiend flayer archetype, as it doesn't replace any existing class features.

*reads archetype*

Meh, a bit too gruesome for this particular character.

[Treefolk]

For Dervish Dance vs Agile its a question of whether you prefer a feat or money. Additionally DD starts at level 3 and is indepent of whether its your scimitar or the gaurd you just knocked out.

Im a fan of shocking grasp but at early levels the multi touch spells are really the best choice due to the low number of spells a magus gets (at higher levels you just have pocket of pearls of power).

[Rerednaw]

On spell combat.
This is one of the most powerful abilities your magus has.

If you find yourself spending a round buffing instead of swinging...then you most likely want to use spell combat.

It breaks action economy.

For example.
Magus: "I'm declaring spell combat!"
*Casts a buff spell like shield*
5 foot step forward.
*make melee attack*

Spell and a swing. Yes the swing is at -2....but it's the difference between casting a spell...and doing nothing else OR casting a spell AND making an attack.

There are situations where you won't be using it of course...but it's a fantastic ability.

I know you don't want to use an archetype...but if you want a bit more on the 'magicky' end...hexcrafter is worth a look.

[Jiggy]

Rerednaw wrote:

On spell combat.

This is one of the most powerful abilities your magus has.

If you find yourself spending a round buffing instead of swinging...then you most likely want to use spell combat.

It breaks action economy.

For example.
Magus: "I'm declaring spell combat!"
*Casts a buff spell like shield*
5 foot step forward.
*make melee attack*

Spell and a swing. Yes the swing is at -2....but it's the difference between casting a spell...and doing nothing else OR casting a spell AND making an attack.

There are situations where you won't be using it of course...but it's a fantastic ability.

So, the monsters are always within 5ft of you when your first turn starts? Because my wife's experience has been that Round 1 is either:

Cast shield and get into position, or
Cast frostbite, get into position, and deliver.
And then of course once frostbite is up, Spell Combat becomes a bad idea for a few rounds.

Is there something I'm missing?

Quote:

I know you don't want to use an archetype...but if you want a bit more on the 'magicky' end...hexcrafter is worth a look.

I don't like losing Spell Recall. That ability seems pretty good.

[Jon Otaguro 428]

Improved spell recall is really good (recall fireball or haste or fly or force hook charge for 1 arcane point).

Although hexcrafter doesn't say it loses improved spell recall, that ability says "Whenever he recalls a spell with spell recall"

Which leads me to believe hexcrafter doesn't get improved spell recall.

[Te'Shen]

Jiggy wrote:

Rerednaw wrote:

I know you don't want to use an archetype...but if you want a bit more on the 'magicky' end...hexcrafter is worth a look.

I don't like losing Spell Recall. That ability seems pretty good.

PFSRD wrote:

Spell Recall (Su)

At 4th level, the magus learns to use his arcane pool to recall spells he has already cast. With a swift action he can recall any single magus spell that he has already prepared and cast that day by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1). The spell is prepared again, just as if it had not been cast.

vs.

PFSRD wrote:

Hex Magus (Su)

At 4th level, the hexcrafter magus gains access to a small number of witch’s hexes. The hexcrafter magus picks one hex from the witch’s hex class feature. He gains the benefit of or uses that hex as if he were a witch of a level equal to his magus level.
. . .
Spells
A hexcrafter magus adds the following spells to his magus spell list: bestow curse, major curse, and all other spells of 6th level or lower that have the curse descriptor.

Many hexes cannot be disrupted in combat, do not provoke attacks of opportunity, are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic. Most of the once a day hexes can be used once on every creature you come across. Slumber is a once a day chance on any creature not immune to sleep. Evil eye can be used an unlimited number of times per day and can be layered on enemies to effect multiple features (armor class, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks). Spell channeling bestow curse is just cool.

I think I'd favor hexes over recall for a character "who highly values magic and intellect, preferring them over things he would call brutish." That is just me, though.

Then again, my group interprets it that a hexcraft magus can take the extra hex feat.

Edit: I say this not considering improved spell recall. If most of you play is up to 10th, I think hexes win. If most of your play is 11th level and after, it leans in favor of the basic magus.

[Drogos]

I don't think there is anything wrong with staying a normal magus vs an archetype. Especially if you've never played one before. So looking at party composition, you are the lone arcane caste, which means that you'll be expected to fulfill that role. Your paladin and Zen Archer can provide consistent and constant damage. To me, it looks like spell recall will be very important to make up for the fact that you won't have as many spells as a full arcane caster. This does open up your options a good bit on build, since you won't be called upon to be the melee Nova as much. I reiterate that you'll want to get a minimum 17 intelligence to start, the bonus spells and the increased save DC help make up for the lack of being a full caster. I think you can safely spend a feat on the more pleasing to you wakizashi, but if you aren't going to piranha strike, it's not really necessary. Honestly, if you don't plan on delivering spells through your weapon much, the 18-20 credit range doesn't really matter. You could get by with just a dagger. I'd focus feasts on getting higher save DCs for spells. Metamagic feats are going to be tough with only 6 levels of spells. If your GM is allowing crafting, and the ap gives some downtime, you may want to get craft rod, even though that is typically a poor route for a magus because of the need for 1 free hand for spell combat.

[Jiggy]

So here's where I'm at now (partly just thinking out loud):

Gonna go with a gladius for my weapon of choice.
No archetypes.
If my GM okays a non-scimitar Dervish Dance, I'll take that at 3rd and then assess later whether to also take Piranha Strike. If not, I might take PS at 3rd or 5th.
This means no need for 13 STR for Power Attack.

Almost even looks like I don't need to change anything from what I originally built. Maybe I need to trust my instincts more in the future. ;)

[Robert Young]

Jiggy wrote:

So, the monsters are always within 5ft of you when your first turn starts? Because my wife's experience has been that Round 1 is either:
Cast shield and get into position, or
Cast frostbite, get into position, and deliver.
And then of course once frostbite is up, Spell Combat becomes a bad idea for a few rounds.

Is there something I'm missing?
.

That's a fine sequence for the beginning of combat. Check out the Bladed Dash spell that can give you more options for maneuverability in combat. 2nd level, move 30 ft without incurring Attacks of Opportunity, gain an extra attack along the way, Spell Combat friendly. And don't forget your swift action options for all that action economy goodness.

[Dreaming Psion]

You can combine spellstrike and spell combat to basically give you an extra weapon attack to deliver a touch range spell. Although this is verging on pure cheese, you can use this with Arcane Mark (a touch-range cantrip, which means it can be used indefinitely.)