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I've been enjoying the game since it was introduced last year at GenCon. I really haven't been able to play it as much as I want. Lives get busy plus we already have a weekly Pathfinder session and monthly gaming days (board games plus miniatures - X-wing or Sails of Glory). But I've been able to play with my friends and my family from time to time. I was just introduced to another group on Free RPG day. Interestingly enough, some concerns were brought up with that group as well as my friends.
One, cost. We've invested in a base RotR set plus add-on deck plus 5 more Adventure decks (first came with the set). My friend is now concerned that he's going to buy another base set, another add-on, more adventure decks, character mats for the new classes. And in six months' time, do it again. That's a lot when new base sets are involved. Why do we have to keep starting with a new base set each time? (Don't forget sleeves and carrying cases.)
Second, the group (at the store) is a bit concerned about OP and the new S&S set. We all have characters that we are still playing through the 4th adventure. They're none-too-happy about having to start over with new characters in S&S. They've invested a lot of time into their RotR characters. The guy (who's set we were using) is very adamant about not wanting to throw away his characters. And while he's interested in OP, he doesn't want to have to buy S&S set to play in OP. The store owner and I were able to get him to see that the class decks were a good thing rather than building class decks from the RotR set(s) of cards.
Is he going to have to start over?
Is he going to have to use S&S for the base of OP and PFSACG?
Third, scalability. If we are going to have to buy S&S (I am already going to but this is for this gaming group at the store), have you put any thought into scaling up adventures (similar to monsters and other banes that scale based on the Adv Deck #) so that the characters from RotR adventures can play in S&S without overpowering that new set?
I will also weigh in on this topic, since I think everyone is a little in the same boat.
As far as the cost goes, I would agree that monthly releases is a little tougher on my wallet and free time. As it stands, I think that the bimonthly release schedule was a little slow for my wife and I, but just about right for my game night group, so I think that the issue of scheduling really depends on how you play and how much free time you really have. The monetary issue is there, since this is essentially doubling the investment on people that want to enjoy the content. My wife and I have decided to see just how S&S goes before we really make any decisions on whether or not it is too much for us, based on how much we get to play. Also, I am a sleever, so my wallet is definitely going to feel a little more pain, but I am going to try to get the sleeves I want in bulk ahead of time, so that might help a little.
Starting over is a little bit of an issue, especially after sinking 40+ hours into each one of your characters at the end of each scenario, for some. I can definitely understand that. For me, I want to play as many characters as I can, because I like to see how they perform based on different party compositions. I try not to get too attached to a character, because I know that I will put them to rest and move on. Sad, but true fact. If you are very attached, though, there are plenty of homebrew ideas for what could happen after adventure 6.
Another huge factor in all of this, is that the characters that you can play in each adventure are tailored to the adventure. If you look at the differences between RotR Valeros and S&S Valeros, you can definitely see the differences. S&S Valeros is better at not drowning for one. The same can be said of Ranzak. His character is based on acquiring boons and staying alive. THe characters are designed to perform well in the AP that they are associated to, but if you feel strongly about it, you can still bring your favorite character with you.
I have not really thought a lot about the OP, since I already have a group going through the APs, and with the timing of everything, do not think that I will have time to do both. If the OP and the adventures alternated months, then I would definitely thing about both. For now, the class decks for me, are just that, new characters to play in classes that I already know.
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As for myself (since the questions that came up were from my friends and from the group I played with), I am also concerned about the cost with basically doubling what I spent this year for next year. I will be getting S&S and the extras with that. I sleeved my set with clear Ultra-Pros and have pre-ordered the PACG sleeves to re-sleeve most of the cards. I am hoping that they come up with a carrying case that holds the base plus all the APs plus the (player) mats and dice. But I'll have to get more sleeves and mats for S&S.
So we'll see about the next AP coming six months later for just the actual cost of the game.
I play with my friend every so often. Started 3rd adv deck. I play with my family and we're just still playing through the 2nd adv deck. There's the group at the store that is playing the 4th. And starting September, the comic store near me is going to be doing the OP (so he's starting with S&S and skipping RotR). There's only so much time to play and if you don't finish a scenario, then you have to redo.
So the time that we're able to play versus the schedule of now monthly new stuff may be prohibitive to 2 APs a year. But that's running through the adventure path fully. So do I want to spend the money on an AP (base set and decks) that is going to basically sit on the shelf?
And the guys at the store were much more assertive about not wanting to abandon their current characters. And I can understand that. You spend time playing and playing these characters for months only to throw them away come August/September.
And what about the longevity of the OP characters? What happens in six months (from August) when the next base set comes out and it is Season 1? Throw away again?
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The biggest potential problem I see with organized play is the fact that one might need to "reset the box" between sessions of OP, if one's other, normal gaming groups aren't on the same page.
A monthly release is a bit much, in my view, not only because it's likely too quick for our local gaming group, but also because I'm concerned quality might suffer and the APs might not be sufficiently play-tested before going to print. We'll see if they continue doing things this rapidly. I expect in the long run that a fair number of less-devoted players will burn out or lose interest in the idea of having PACG as their only board game (or perhaps just game) experience, which is what monthly releases more or less require in terms of time and, potentially, budget.
On the "continuity" factor: I really believe that this expectation that characters will go on forever and ever is something that's been set by modern "massively multiplayer" games, which encourage that long-term investment for business reasons. PACG, and most "real" role-playing games, do not necessarily need that to build a compelling experience. A lot of the fun can come in exploring different characters and how they play. While I realize that at this point in time many have grown up with this experience of a "role-playing game" (such as that may be), this isn't the historical norm, and I don't think PACG should change how it's doing things.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I mean, you've got to understand that Paizo had a bunch of people clamoring that they wanted more content, that the adventure decks weren't coming out fast enough. If you were in charge of a product line and had tons of customers saying "I'll buy more if you make it!" wouldn't you make more for them to buy? Paizo is a business, and they saw a way to expand profits and give their customers more product.
As far as you not being able to play through scenarios fast enough, honestly there is no reason that you should have to feel like you MUST buy any given base set. Buy a class deck or two and play with your store's copy of S&S for the organized play. Or just skip S&S completely, finish up your RotRL game and maybe play through it with another set of characters while you wait for the next path (which they'll be announcing on Saturday, BTW, SUPER EXCITED!)
I feel like one cost issue that you're having is that your cost includes all these sleeves. Why do you feel the need to sleeve your cards? Do you really bang them up when playing? I haven't sleeved mine, and other than a few light scratches on the edges of some cards, they look exactly the way they did when I picked them up from GenCon last year. And if you do buy S&S and want to play in organized play, then just take the RotRL cards out of their sleeves, sleeve S&S with those, and then when you decide to pull out RotRL again for a game, just play without sleeves. If you're not playing that path very often, the sleeving shouldn't matter. I guess I just have trouble with people complaining about the cost of the game when they're adding unnecessary costs themselves by sleeving and buying character mats and things like that. It would be like a Magic player saying "I can't afford all these boosters, why do you keep coming out with new sets and new boosters???" when they could easily just play with the cards they already have if they can't afford to keep collecting.
The issue of the longevity of the OP characters is a valid question, and I look forward to hearing more from Tanis on how our characters will work between seasons. But that's all still to be seen.
I hope you don't feel like this post is attacking you or anything, I just honestly don't understand why people complain about costs and that they NEED to buy things. You can always just say "I can't afford it this time, maybe next year."
Actually, I think the release cycle helps with cost. If you want to keep costs down, skip an Adventure Path. And then when you are ready to come back you won't NEED that Adventure Path you skipped. You can just pick up the next one. In other words, if you want to only buy 1 adventure path per year, you can. If you stick to that rate of purchase, you'll eventually get to the point where you have lots of adventure paths to choose from each time you are ready to buy a new one. But if you are playing fast enough and have the money to buy them all, you can do so. Monthly releases really let you play at the rate you want.
You mentioned sleeving the game. There is no reason you can't reuse sleeves. I'm thinking I'll probably end up with 2 or 3 adventure paths worth of sleeves since I'll only be playing that many adventure paths actively.
You also mentioned getting the character mats. It sounds like you got them for RotR and will buy them again for S&S. While they are nice, they again aren't something you need.
You mentioned not wanting to abandon your characters. I know for me and my wife, by the end of adventure 6, we had a hard time keeping track of all our powers. If I eventually had a character with 20 different powers, I think I'd quit. Its just to much to try and remember. And I've really enjoyed trying a new character too. I'll also say this, if you like RotR Valeros, I'm pretty sure you'll like S&S Valeros. They'll be different in some way, but alike in others. He'll still "feel" like Valeros, just a Valeros that can do some different things. And really, is that what you want for Valeros? For him to be able to do different things? Sure he won't be as powerful in S&S Adventure 1 as he was in RotR Adventure 6, adding 7 to all his Melee checks. But he'll be able to do some new things. Which is really what I want, to play the character I love but see them do new things.
carmanbeck makes a comparison to Magic: The Gathering. I think that is valid, but I think the way PACG is approaching this is so much better. I play MTG maybe a dozen times with friends 20 years ago. When I look at it now, it seems overwhelming to me to even consider trying to catch up on everything. And there is definitely a much stronger feeling of need to "stay current" with a game like MTG. But with PACG, there is no reason you can't skip a whole adventure path. It won't have any impact on the adventure path's you do purchase. And you also won't ever feel like you have an incomplete game. As long as you own the 7 products for an adventure path, your game (i.e. that adventure path) is complete.
Just my thoughts.
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Actually, I was thinking about longevity of character based on Pathfinder Society. I have a character I've played for a few years now. :-)
But I agree, that while it is nice they have new content so they can push out two APs a year, the financial and time burn-out factors concern me.
Base Set $60 which include AP1
5 x AP decks $20 each
Add-on deck $20
character play mats
You end up spending $193 (Amazon for above) and up based on discounts then shipping. And $193 is probably the cheapest but you get the point. At least $200 per AP and for this coming year, $400 for 2 APs.
That's a lot without even throwing in $20 per class deck. Seven to start but four more later on.
It gets me worried. Luckily, for those just playing class decks, the investment isn't bad. And for my buddy and me, I think I'll be the one investing in the S&S AP set.
(And I am familiar with the actual Adventure Paths in Pathfinder so I understand the theme and cards based on those themes. We've played in Rise of the Runelords and Council of Thieves. We're now starting new characters in Kingmaker next week.)
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I have to agree with you both, cartmanbeck and HawkMoon. If two APs a year are too much then just go with S&S if you're planning on doing OP scenarios.
And personally, I don't like to reuse the sleeves so I'll probably switch most of my cards over to the PACG themed ones and buy more for S&S. (But now I'll have plenty of clears.) And while my cards looks fairly pristine (got them at GenCon last year), the guy's I was playing with last night were a bit beat up. Also, the other reason I like to sleeve all the cards is the Errata PDF that I've cut and slid into the sleeves with the cards. Really nice to be able to do that. (The guys from the store nearly cried when I showed them that since they've been actually writing errata on cards.)
I know that Paizo is a company and they make money for the content they put out. And that's why I'll invest in some of the content they provide and pass on other (for the Pathfinder RPG). I just don't want them to start going down a path of pumping out more and more for the PACG and it stalling.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Yeah, I've been writing on my cards for RotRL which does make me sad, but I'm HOPING that there will be much less errata on S&S cards since they were both:
A. more extensively playtested
B. after RotRL where a lot of the kinks got worked out
The only reason I would probably sleeve my S&S cards is if I end up being the one whose base set is used for the organized play. If the store that i'm planning to run sessions at has their own copy, I won't do so.
I like that Errata PDF thing too. Somebody mentioned using Avery #6465 full sheet removable label paper. They peel back off the card and eliminate sleeving for just dropping in the errata. But I agree about sleeving protecting the cards. I started out not sleeving, but either my rough shuffling or simple over use was doing too much damage to the cards.
By the way, there will be an Adventure Case from Ultra Pro. Not sure if it will hold the mats or not, but keep an eye out for it.
I'm sure if the release cycle indicates purchases are dropping too much, or quality is being impacted (which will also show up in declining sales) they'll pull back the reigns. The existence of the game is way more important to me than the rate of the game. Long live PACG! (After all, that is what we all really want.)
It is very typical that Organized Play runs in seasons, whether you are discussing RPGs, card games, or whatever. A new season almost always starts with new characters and a new story. I do not expect PACG OP to be any different. OP will not likely be an avenue for continuing your characters from ANY adventure path.
That said, I do believe there is a decent chance that we could see AP7 and up adventures/scenarios released similar to how they are planning on releasing OP scenarios, though cheap pdf releases. The creation of the conquering heroes thread makes this even more likely, as the first step in challenging those conquering heroes is determining the power curve.
There is quite a bit of demand for continuing play, and this would be an inexpensive way for Paizo to cater to that demand. Having players print their own scenario and location cards would not be an issue, and using substitute henchman/ villain cards would not be much of an issue either. If they were feeling really ambitious, they could also include the option for print on demand cards at Drivethru similar to how they are discussing for errata cards.
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Yeah, I've been writing on my cards for RotRL which does make me sad, but I'm HOPING that there will be much less errata on S&S cards since they were both:
A. more extensively playtested
B. after RotRL where a lot of the kinks got worked outThe only reason I would probably sleeve my S&S cards is if I end up being the one whose base set is used for the organized play. If the store that i'm planning to run sessions at has their own copy, I won't do so.
My buddy doesn't sleeve his card but he only plays with me and his family. And as gamers (including his family), we're fairly careful with cards and bits.
I didn't want to write on my cards so when I saw the errata on BGG, I spent the time printing and cutting and inserting into sleeves.
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I like that Errata PDF thing too. Somebody mentioned using Avery #6465 full sheet removable label paper. They peel back off the card and eliminate sleeving for just dropping in the errata. But I agree about sleeving protecting the cards. I started out not sleeving, but either my rough shuffling or simple over use was doing too much damage to the cards.
By the way, there will be an Adventure Case from Ultra Pro. Not sure if it will hold the mats or not, but keep an eye out for it.
I'm sure if the release cycle indicates purchases are dropping too much, or quality is being impacted (which will also show up in declining sales) they'll pull back the reigns. The existence of the game is way more important to me than the rate of the game. Long live PACG! (After all, that is what we all really want.)
I have a hard time using stickies on my cards ... but I'll spend the time cutting up that PDF and putting it in the sleeves. (Especially when you can get errata on errata ... played MtG for too long.)
Yup, that's the case I'm talking about. Waiting on the details also.
Coming from decades of RPGing, I saw WotC do wonderful things with D&D by bringing back to life after TSR's mismanagement of the line. But both TSR with 2nd Ed and WotC with 3.x pumped out too much content and glutted the product. Paizo has been a lot more diverse in how they put out content for Pathfinder. I like that. I like that there are modules and reference manuals and adventure paths and the Society stuff. You can pick and choose what you want without a lot of overlap. So when I worry about the content for PACG, it is because I've seen the bad with D&D and the good with Pathfinder, and I want to see this game thrive.
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It is very typical that Organized Play runs in seasons, whether you are discussing RPGs, card games, or whatever. A new season almost always starts with new characters and a new story. I do not expect PACG OP to be any different. OP will not likely be an avenue for continuing your characters from ANY adventure path.
That said, I do believe there is a decent chance that we could see AP7 and up adventures/scenarios released similar to how they are planning on releasing OP scenarios, though cheap pdf releases. The creation of the conquering heroes thread makes this even more likely, as the first step in challenging those conquering heroes is determining the power curve.
There is quite a bit of demand for continuing play, and this would be an inexpensive way for Paizo to cater to that demand. Having players print their own scenario and location cards would not be an issue, and using substitute henchman/ villain cards would not be much of an issue either. If they were feeling really ambitious, they could also include the option for print on demand cards at Drivethru similar to how they are discussing for errata cards.
Actually, I've played my PFS characters across the seasons. So starting new characters each season doesn't sound reasonable to me. But then the advancement of my PFS characters is slow. And that becomes the issue that you mentioned with the power curve.
And the play in OP versus the APs can't be the same. I'll be interested to see how they do that. I compare it to running normal RPG characters in a complete Adventure Path (which does take years) versus running a PFS character through their scenarios in the season.
And the other thing I wondered is as they out out the scenarios for organized play whether they'd be putting out additional location, boon and bane cards as needed as one-offs. It starts with the S&S base but we'll have to see if you'll need the AP decks for the OP as well. And how to transition seasons.
Even seeing the approx $180 I'll be spending on a semi-annual basis (no play mats or sleeves for me, thanks), I'm still psyched for the monthly release schedule. Pathfinder has been our favorite game, and bimonthly releases were killing us. It was long enough that we'd have to familiarize ourselves with our characters every time the next AP came out, and we'd have to force ourselves to only play one scenario at a time, because we didn't want to waste it by blowing through them all at once and having to wait 7 weeks for the next one. $300-ish a year is a lot, but definitely less than we pay in video games, and we probably get more per-hour enjoyment out of Pathfinder than most $60 games, maybe even 5 of them!
If anything, the only disappointment is that we'll never have time to play all the characters that seem cool. We're just about finished with our second duo. We thought we might try livestreaming some games a 3rd duo before Skull and Shackles comes out, but after that... well, at a monthly rate I bet we only get a brand new Adventure Path. But that's a minor disappointment (don't get to try ALL the characters) caused by a totally awesome and fantastic development (new APs every 6 months!)
The idea of using label paper to fix errata without hurting the cards appeals to my idiosyncratic nerd aesthetics, but I don't think we have the discerning eye for quality that many people on this board do. We don't recognize which are 1st and which are 2nd printings, and I don't have a photographic memory for the corner chip on a card that's -clearly- a disintegrate. Though I guess I sometimes notice "hey that thing's not -that- chipped, I guess it's probably AP4+" It doesn't really affect my thinking. Usually it's that stupid Shock Greatsword +2 we've never used coming up again. :D
So we wrote on all our cards with a sharpie for errata. It's actually kind of liberating and fun to scrawl on something you love with a permanent marker--though sometimes I wish I hadn't, mostly when Scorching Ray comes up and I think "it'd be better if I didn't know this wasn't a basic." Our darkest day of Pathfinder, when the cards suffered their worst casualty, was our water-damaged Dance with the Squealy Nord (the hazards of an NYC apartment, our only table is right next to the sink, and the Pathfinder box occupies a semi-permanent space on it). It got hit and we didn't notice it, so the water dried and the card bent so bad it basically levitated everything above it in the deck. The Nord resisted all our best efforts to flatten it out, so we eventually took a Blessing of the Gods, wrote "Squealy Nord!" on it, and left it in with the barriers. We figured changing the Blessing odds was worth being surprised when our favorite pig came up.
On cost - Nobody twists your arm and forces you to buy every product. I know it's not Paizo's favorite thing to hear, but if you can only afford/have time to adequately play through 1 AP a year...well, now you have your choice of 2 every year. And after the first year, your choice swells to 3, then 4. That's nothing but a win for you. For the more dedicated PACG players, twice as much content. Still a win. For everyone.
On base sets - It's important to be able to reset the card pool. Otherwise, you could never do anything with new characters who are unsupported by the base cards. You want a Summoner who plays Evolution cards (maybe a spell subtype, maybe a new type)? Too bad, there are no Evolutions in the base set, so you can't make a legal deck. You want to create an Alchemist who relies on being able to make different Infusions? Too bad, no base infusions. You want to make a spiked chain specialist Fighter? Too bad, no chains in the base set. And on and on.
On starting over - Imagine, if you will, if they kept building on each previous expansion. At some point, I'm going to optimistically say set 34, they're going to realize that they will sell no copies of the product to anyone who hasn't already played set 33. The game needs an on-ramp in order to draw new players in. Would you rather say "hey Bill, next month you can join us in Reign of Winter when we start new characters", or "Hey Bill, we'd love to play with you. Just solo your way through sets 1-33 and we can all meet up in set 34"?
Just trust me. You can't vertically expand a game forever. Look at any MMO, and you see that leveling up gets faster every expansion, because you want your game to be accessible to newcomers. You want them to be able to play with their veteran friends. You don't want them stuck soloing in the horrible dead zone between "newbie" and "played since playtest".
On time crunch - I was in the S&S playtest (I can say that much, right? Pretty sure). After that experience, I have absolutely zero doubts that Mike can crank out a high quality set twice a year. The only problem I see is that there will be too many games and not enough time to play them.
Just trust me. You can't vertically expand a game forever. Look at any MMO, and you see that leveling up gets faster every expansion, because you want your game to be accessible to newcomers. You want them to be able to play with their veteran friends. You don't want them stuck soloing in the horrible dead zone between "newbie" and "played since playtest".
That's probably the biggest benefit for me. I'm a big fan of raiding in MMOs. As things progress, means meaningful progress gets obfuscated by the bloat of higher numbers--who really knows how far you're progressing when you have 200k health and DPS is critting for 30k, etc. I'd rather play a small game where stats have obvious, meaningful increases, instead of something like, say, Borderlands where your current gun does 1231 damage and the new one does 1274 and you're supposed to be excited about that.
Numbers in games eventually become so high that they're practically abstract, and upgrades feel underwhelming because it's just another nudge up towards infinity. I'd rather small, meaningful decisions than a constant progression towards ever-so-slightly better stuff--a Quill of Revelation that now lets you look at SEVEN cards, for example. When we found a Disintegrate we were psyched! A huge damage upgrade, that does a bunch of cool non-combat stuff too. In that respect RotR felt like just about the right pace, though by the end we were rolling like 6d12+4d6+4d4 on a check, and it got a little silly.
It sucks leaving a character you've tuned and progressed with behind, totally. I absolutely fell in love with Merisiel, she's super great. It's kind of sad to leave her behind when I've really delved deep into her mechanics and really understand how to play her as a character. At the same time, it's exciting to think about doing that to a new character, and moving back to a time when a Combat 11 check was scary, and a +1 weapon was an upgrade. And we'll get to do it with all new stuff! Like swashbucklers, and sharks!
I understand the concerns with the base sets and OP and everything. My group likely would have had similar concerns, if I hadn't made the conscious decision to take up some of that burden. I am going to buy the S&S base set and the expansions for it. I will buy maybe two class decks for Organized Play. The next base set that comes out? My friend who bought the RotR Base set will take that up.
On the Organized Play side, I'm only going to purchase two class decks because I'm also going to be running these games. I'll have them both for my own use and so a new player can take a deck for a test run to see if that's what they want to play. Kinda like having some pregens in regular PFS play. I may or may not buy other class decks, but I'm starting small right now.
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But also if you play RPG PFS you also have to start a new character. If you've gamed for years, you probably have a couple characters that you've played for a heck of a lot more than 40 hours. Then you join PFS and you have to create a level 1 character. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to have to start from scratch when you starting fresh in a special campaign.
Also, if I've followed everything right (and I might be wrong) the RotR characters will be legal for PFSACG in case you REALLY like one of those characters. You just have to start it from level 1.
Be selective about the APs you buy! Problem solved!
You don't need every AP.
You don't need to sleeve every set with Official Ultra Pro themed sleeves.
You don't need to buy every pack of player mats.
You don't need to buy every class deck.
You don't need the promos.
Like the RPG, there is going to be far too much content for you to buy, let alone play. So now that you are free from that mindset, buy only those APs that interest you.
For me, Jade Regent is the AP that will get me to go all-in for an AP. I would subscribe to get the promos, buy the player-mats, get the official sleeves and storage box for that AP, promo poster, character add-on deck.
The fact that each AP is self-contained makes this work really well. It gives people jumping-on/jumping-off points that other games do not have!
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But also if you play RPG PFS you also have to start a new character. If you've gamed for years, you probably have a couple characters that you've played for a heck of a lot more than 40 hours. Then you join PFS and you have to create a level 1 character. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to have to start from scratch when you starting fresh in a special campaign.
Also, if I've followed everything right (and I might be wrong) the RotR characters will be legal for PFSACG in case you REALLY like one of those characters. You just have to start it from level 1.
Absolutely. All PFS characters start from scratch. Plus the PFS advancement path is different than the standard RPG advancement. It's not the same type of exp(erience).
I'm not really talking about starting over for OP which we'll have to do. I'm just voicing the concerns from others about starting new characters for each new base set. I've been trying to explain that S&S will introduce new skills and twists to the characters so that (for instance) RotR Valeros won't look like S&S Valeros. [Which we already do know.]
I will probably end up buying 6 class decks and grabbing my free one at GenCon (4 tix). I already bought a couple of the Ultra-Pro 4-card/page portfolios to test them out. I like them so far. The elastic band helps keep the cards in the binder.
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Be selective about the APs you buy! Problem solved!
You don't need every AP.
You don't need to sleeve every set with Official Ultra Pro themed sleeves.
You don't need to buy every pack of player mats.
You don't need to buy every class deck.
You don't need the promos.Like the RPG, there is going to be far too much content for you to buy, let alone play. So now that you are free from that mindset, buy only those APs that interest you.
For me, Jade Regent is the AP that will get me to go all-in for an AP. I would subscribe to get the promos, buy the player-mats, get the official sleeves and storage box for that AP, promo poster, character add-on deck.
The fact that each AP is self-contained makes this work really well. It gives people jumping-on/jumping-off points that other games do not have!
Oh, I know I don't have to buy every AP. We'll see about the 3rd AP. When I play with the group at the gaming store, we don't use a mat for the locations and we don't use the player mats. I actually like using both. Things don't slide around. As far as the sleeves, the Ultra-Pro clears are great. But I don't really mind using the PACG themed ones and reuse the clear ones for other games.
As far as the promos, I get them with my subscription.
When I go to GenCon, I expect to drop a lot of money on games. That's my gaming fund. So it just happens that the hefty percentage is for PACG.
I think my main beef with the frequency is wanting to have the promos without paying 50 bucks a piece if I decide I want to get a skipped AP at a later date. I'm totally good skipping since I can probably only save money later by buying it on sale. My issue becomes the increased cost of the promos that are only available to subscribers. I didn't hop into this game until May. Um. That was a lot of back tracking to do but I did it because my wife was so interested she basically changed game night (tonight actually). We no longer play other games besides PACG.
But to say that is an invalid argument is kind of... Well it kind of stinks because for me, it is a valid argument. We want the availability of all the resources for the game. We are limited first by the company who gives an exclusive bonus to preordering through them. If we can't afford to get everything as it comes out but will come back and pick it up as we can afford it, well, we missed something. And we can't buy it say, as a pack or singles from the company during, oh, the next AP or even two APs later which would be real neat but just isn't how it works.
So yes, it's all good to sit on a forum and say 'you don't need everything' but that's kind of hurtful when someone may just want the same fun as other people but may have to budget and save up for later (proponent of delayed gratification here...). This isn't a collectible game after all. There aren't chase cards or foils or anything. It's just a thought to be considerate, not really a complaint even. For the record, I was just promoted and now have the ability (properly budgeted) to continue at this greater pace. But not everyone can do that. I just don't want to see those folks miss out :/
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I think my main beef with the frequency is wanting to have the promos without paying 50 bucks a piece if I decide I want to get a skipped AP at a later date. I'm totally good skipping since I can probably only save money later by buying it on sale. My issue becomes the increased cost of the promos that are only available to subscribers...
Some online stores actually sell their adventure decks with the appropriate promo card(s). I'm not sure which ones do, though, but my buddy had gotten the last couple of decks with promos from his source online. I just was mentioning that because I am a subscriber, I'm not paying extra for promos so it is a moot point in picking and choosing what I want to buy.
The other thing Astral Frog forgot to mention is that you don't have to buy the game at all. That solves budget concerns in a big way. Just play with someone else's. ;-)
Some times I like to buy accessories that are made for a game. The player mats are really nice and work well for us. But looking at the new bigger play mat coming out, I'll probably skip that and use the generic mat we have. I don't have to buy all the class decks but like someone said, if you're going to be playing in the OP, it is always nice to have them available for yourself or others.
Right now (in my mind) I am putting the 3rd AP on hold. I want to see S&S and also find out which AP is going to be next. So I'll go all in for S&S and class decks and we'll see for the next one.
For me, My girlfriend and I play it at an absolutely voracious rate (we're on our 5th team of characters, and started playing in January, with each of us playing 3 characters each), so I'm one of those people who really wants the monthly upgrade.
That being said, I fully admit that I have to gulp when I think about the total cost here. Depending on how things go, we may end up not getting the Season 1 class decks, if we still haven't worked our way through all the other characters.
One recommendation, that's not available to me since I don't have a gaming group, is to try to split the cost. You can potentially do this a few ways. First, you can trade off Adventure Paths (ie I buy RotR, you buy S&S, Steve buys AP3, and I get AP4 again). This greatly alleviates the cost for each person, while still making sure you have access to all the paths. Just make sure that all the people you agree to this with are the kind who will let you borrow their games for a while. Second, you could make a pool. It's a lot easier to afford an $80 initial investment if it's being split 6 ways, and the $20 expansions are less than 3.50 a pop in that split. Obviously the problem with this method is the ownership issue, and you should only do it with really close friends.
Unfortunately, I can't really help with moving on to new characters, leaving behind the old. It's something that comes very naturally to me, and something that my Girlfriend sometimes struggles with. We haven't figured out a way to balance it out, but I will let you know if I do. Nest recommendation: start some new groups from level 1 in RotR, making sure everyone takes a new character. That may get people excited about doing something new, which is the most fun part of starting over.
Chief Technical Officer
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I don't think anybody here would be surprised to learn that the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game is modeled on Paizo's first really successful independent product line, the Pathfinder Adventure Path line. If you're not familiar with how that line works, well, it's going to sound surprisingly familiar:
Every six months, we release a new 6-chapter Adventure Path—a series of linked adventures that, taken together, tell a complete story. You create new 1st-level characters for each AP, and by the time you're done, your characters have been elevated to high levels (usually around 12th or 13th level in the RPG).
And almost all of the concerns people are expressing are concerns that Adventure Path players had as we moved towards the release of our second AP. Trust me—we've thought about all of these things, and we've been through them before. A few months from now, you'll understand why we do what we do.
Yes, every AP requires you to start a new character. I won't go through all the reasons for that, as the posts above mine have touched on almost all of them. This was also a bigger deal for RPG players than it is here, partly because our rulebooks support 20 levels of play, and our APs don't often go past 16 or so, and partly because RPG players often have very deep connections to and relationships with the characters they play. But I will say that most of our RPG AP players have embraced this as an opportunity to do something different, and they helps keep the game fresh. You've been a fighter—try being a wizard! You might like it. And Valeros won't be offended (much). After all, you'll always have ParisSandpoint!
And yes—we are producing more content than most people can play. That's actually even *more* true in the RPG line, where gaming groups may often take well over a year to play through an AP. But here's the thing—because you start with new characters every time, there are no dependencies in the products. If you can't complete an AP in six months, then you can just pick the APs that most appeal to you. But if you're playing weekly, we've got what you need too.
And yes, if you wanted to buy everything, there's a lot of potential expense there. It's a hobby, and as with most hobbies, the amount of time and money you can spend is often limited only by your desire and your resources... and as with most hobbies, your desire can easily be greater than your resources can support. But the good news is that you *don't* have to buy everything. The OP program actually *lowers* the cost of entry to the game: You can play season after season with a single $19.99 class deck.
Also, I just wanted to note something about PFS RPG play: There is actually a soft level limit there, in that our main PFS content largely stops after 12th level. We do have special exceptions to that, and we have sanctioned non-PFS-specific material beyond that level for PFS play, but the vast majority of PFS RPG scenarios are for lower-level characters.
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Chief Technical Officer
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And the other thing I wondered is as they out out the scenarios for organized play whether they'd be putting out additional location, boon and bane cards as needed as one-offs. It starts with the S&S base but we'll have to see if you'll need the AP decks for the OP as well. And how to transition seasons.
The OP scenarios are *just* scenarios. All of the other cards come from the base set and AP decks, plus, of course, your character's class deck. And we start over each season.
my two biggest concerns about cpmpairing this to the rpg are 1) there is an extra $60 per ap in the base set to have a full line and 2) it isnt as customizable as the rpg. yes i could always print my own carsa but they wipl never feel as legitimit as the ones paizo prints.
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I mean, you've got to understand that Paizo had a bunch of people clamoring that they wanted more content, that the adventure decks weren't coming out fast enough. If you were in charge of a product line and had tons of customers saying "I'll buy more if you make it!" wouldn't you make more for them to buy? Paizo is a business, and they saw a way to expand profits and give their customers more product.
Whether it "expands profits" depends a great deal on whether or not the fan base as a whole decides to stick with the monthly releases. There are a lot of people who purchased Runelords the way they purchased Carcassonne or Catan - as a board game that they purchased and played merely to experience the concept. If Paizo only increase total sales by 25% (because a lot of people pick every other release) and, by printing and developing more cards, increase production & development costs by 50%, then the increase in profit margin may not be as expansive as you're assuming.
I, for one, am happy to purchase all of the content they produce...I have no "cost issue," and in fact time is really far more of a consideration - it's not always easy to schedule time with friends to get together. I'm not really quite sure whether your post, cart, was addressed to me or not, because it seems you're reading in my post the echoes of a lot of other peoples' ideas as they've expressed them. Some obviously won't feel as similarly attached to PACG as I do, and as Hawkmoon said, the existence of the game is more important to me than the rate of content production. I hope that as many continue to find PACG as worthwhile in the years to come as they have this past year, and that the game will be as much of a mainstay over 10-20 years as Magic: The Gathering has been.
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Chief Technical Officer
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my two biggest concerns about cpmpairing this to the rpg are 1) there is an extra $60 per ap in the base set to have a full line and 2) it isnt as customizable as the rpg. yes i could always print my own carsa but they wipl never feel as legitimit as the ones paizo prints.
On your first point, there are certainly people who feel that having "the full line" for an RPG Adventure Path means getting the Item Cards, the Face Cards, the Map Folio, the Pawn Collection, the tie-in Campaign Setting book, the tie-in Player Companion book, any rulebooks that are referenced in it, any tie-in maps, and several hundred prepainted plastic miniatures that depict the characters and monsters in the story.
To address your second point, we do recognize that people want more variety.... and that's a big part of why we're giving you a new Base Set every six months!
To people pointing out the cost being an issue, just think on this:
About $200 in 6 months is ~$33 a month. While, yes, it's more than the ~$17 that RotR was, that is still quite doable.
2 people going to the movies every month can be more than $20 a month. Where I live, 2 people going to the movies, getting just large drinks (no popcorn) costs $28.50. That's a one-time event, there's no interaction with the story; you're just an onlooker. And if you want to watch it again, you have to pay for it again.
Many people buy a new video game every month or two. That's ~$60. Even more for the Collector edition because they want to have everything.
PACG is entertainment and a hobby, but it's at least one that's replayable, continuously entertaining, and can be customized, edited into something new, and changed to our liking. That's what we're paying for.
There's lots of extras we can purchase as well, but that's not necessary. Just like anything else, extras will add cost, but that is totally up to the person that's buying it. It's also nifty that those extras are even an option.
If someone is concerned about the price of PACG, I can almost guarantee you that they're neither the kind of person who sees movies at a theater frequently, nor often purchases brand new $60 games, given their price-halflife.
If someone is concerned about the price of PACG, I can almost guarantee you that they're neither the kind of person who sees movies at a theater frequently, nor often purchases brand new $60 games, given their price-halflife.
Funnily enough, I can almost guarantee you that many of them have done just that, though.
That's the only reason I wanted to point it out. Many people won't even notice they've done it, because it's just how many of us are built.
If it was a huge issue, they wouldn't have bought RotR in the first place; that was also ~$180. The only difference between it and the ones going forward is that the time span to deal with the cost is reduced, but it's still the same amount of monetary investment.
It's just harsher in our minds to imagine spending "$180 in 6 months" than it is to imagine spending "$33.34 a month for 6 months" or even "$80 the first month, then $20 for the next 5 months." Humans are strange that way. How we process numbers and costs is why considerably more people will buy an item costing 24.99 than would buy an item costing 25.00. Our view on numbers can be quite strange.
And the other thing I wondered is as they out out the scenarios for organized play whether they'd be putting out additional location, boon and bane cards as needed as one-offs. It starts with the S&S base but we'll have to see if you'll need the AP decks for the OP as well. And how to transition seasons.The OP scenarios are *just* scenarios. All of the other cards come from the base set and AP decks, plus, of course, your character's class deck. And we start over each season.
I'm afraid I haven't really been paying attention to the organised play side of things.
Will the scenarios be printed products or purely PDFs?
That's an interesting perspective. Fwiw, I'm not a board game player at all (though I'd call it a card game, rather than a board game, but the point is no doubt still valid) so my calculus is totally different. I'll subscribe to an AP (and consider it money well spent) even if I only play it through once or twice.
I wonder if the difference in paizo's strategy that you allude to is due to a substantially different market - paizo may well be accessing a market not easily accessible to other board/card game manufacturers. If so, there may well be some compromises in both directions - running into the falling bell in scenarios other than the appropriate one still annoys me, for example where a gamer with a different background may not even notice the issue.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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And the other thing I wondered is as they out out the scenarios for organized play whether they'd be putting out additional location, boon and bane cards as needed as one-offs. It starts with the S&S base but we'll have to see if you'll need the AP decks for the OP as well. And how to transition seasons.The OP scenarios are *just* scenarios. All of the other cards come from the base set and AP decks, plus, of course, your character's class deck. And we start over each season.I'm afraid I haven't really been paying attention to the organised play side of things.
Will the scenarios be printed products or purely PDFs?
The organized play scenarios will be PDFs that are sent to stores and coordinators (read: Pathfinder Society Venture Officers) first, then they'll be grouped into a single PDF and sold on paizo.com to the general public approximately a month later.
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And please, show me a single boardame not counting PACG with monthly expansions. I think there is a good reason that nobody does that.
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Imagine how many people wouldn't have bought PACG if they didn't split it up between a $60 base set, and 6 $20 expansions over a course of time.
How many people do you think would have purchased a single box game that cost $180 out of the gate on day one?
THAT would be why they split it up and separated it out.
It was all already printed, they could have easily released it all at once if they had so desired, but the market customers wouldn't have been able to handle it and the game would have flopped horribly.
The organized play scenarios will be PDFs that are sent to stores and coordinators (read: Pathfinder Society Venture Officers) first, then they'll be grouped into a single PDF and sold on paizo.com to the general public approximately a month later.And the other thing I wondered is as they out out the scenarios for organized play whether they'd be putting out additional location, boon and bane cards as needed as one-offs. It starts with the S&S base but we'll have to see if you'll need the AP decks for the OP as well. And how to transition seasons.The OP scenarios are *just* scenarios. All of the other cards come from the base set and AP decks, plus, of course, your character's class deck. And we start over each season.I'm afraid I haven't really been paying attention to the organised play side of things.
Will the scenarios be printed products or purely PDFs?
Thanks. At least I won't be missing any physical product. :)
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Triplec, I really doubt they made such a big decision without stepping back and thinking about it. If they made a change like this, it's likely because they did put a lot of thought and research into it and determined that it would be better to monthly releases.
I love this game, I really do. However, I likely wouldn't get any set past S&S if it stayed at one set a year. Unless each adventure we're at least twice as large, it just doesn't fit for me. The anticipation makes it more exciting, but I'd rather just have my game and not waiting two months for add ons the size they are .
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And the other thing I wondered is as they out out the scenarios for organized play whether they'd be putting out additional location, boon and bane cards as needed as one-offs. It starts with the S&S base but we'll have to see if you'll need the AP decks for the OP as well. And how to transition seasons.The OP scenarios are *just* scenarios. All of the other cards come from the base set and AP decks, plus, of course, your character's class deck. And we start over each season.
Vic, thanks for your responses. I kicked up a bit of conversation with this thread but then I felt like I needed to because of concerns from people around me.
As we get closer to the start of the OP (Organized Play :-) ), have there been any decisions how progression will be handled? I understand that each AP is basically starting out with new characters each time. Makes sense overall when you're patterning the APs after the RPG APs. (Starting Kingmaker next week!) But if OP/PFSACG is patterned after PFS RPG, then you are carrying characters from scenario to scenario. Are you going to be publishing rules how "level" progression will work? What are the limits? How scenarios will be rated for "levels"?
And you responded that the OP scenarios will pull from the base set, adventure decks and the class decks, but just S&S or will we be utilizing the base set from that season? (i.e. Season 0 pulls from S&S)
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When I consider the financial cost of the game, I have to factor in more than just PACG. I play Pathfinder RPG so any PDFs/books/minis I purchased are in my same gaming fund. I play board games so those are thrown in as well. So while I'm okay with buying S&S and all the other stuff that comes with it, I know I'll be playing S&S for the next year. And the question becomes should I buy the next AP six months later if it will most probably just sit on the shelf. Can't tell yet. Need to get S&S and see where it goes.
Also depends on how the OP/PFSACG is going to progress from season to season.
I'm also talking to a guy from the local comic book store to organize the OP (I need to contact my VO in the area) and see how the cost of the game supplies will be handled. (Not sure if he purchases it for the store or he buys it ... or I buy it if I decide to coordinate with him).
Just to chime in with my thoughts on all of this. I am ecstatic about the direction PACG is headed. There is more content coming than I really know what to do with and it provides options and replayability and everything I could want in a game. My only wish is that the game continues to be successful from a financial standpoint for both Paizo and Lone Shark Games so that we can continue to receive content.
I'm not worried about kicking out so much content that they run out of ideas. Good games will continue to have good ideas and can sustain regular major releases. How many times early on was it been proclaimed that Magic couldn't sustain its run, that the ideas would dry up. Here we are 20 something years later and they still produce a successful quality product. PACG can do the same.
I will continue to try to keep up with what gets released, but if I can't, I wouldn't want the game to slow down so I can keep up. I just want to see it keep flowing and keep being successful so that I can continue to keep this as my primary gaming experience because I love it so much. Personally I have yet to sleeve my cards and I don't stress the playmats and whatnot. If you want the game, continue to buy it, but don't feel the need to buy everything... I just don't understand an excellent game being so well supported by its publisher being questioned for making products that the consumers have stated they want. This isn't Paizo or Lone Shark forcing the game down anybody's throat. Many have posted that they didn't have enough content and they have satisified that want with the upcoming release schedule. If that is too much for what you want, then do what many others have suggested and buy every other AP or only the ones that interest you.
I'm sure if for whatever reason the release schedule doesn't perform as well as anticipated that it will then change... but why would anybody ever want to see that?
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Organized Play will be using the set from that season. So, now it's Skull and Shackles, the next one will be using... I can't remember. Vic, which adventure path did you say was coming after S&S?
(Shhh you guys... he's totally gonna fall for this)
Expect a reminder response from Vic after the PaizoCon banquet on Saturday night.
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Chief Technical Officer
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1. while they can forcibly double the number of products they can't double designer creativity, "interesting new ideas per year" as easily. I rather have fewer more interesting products than more which were hurried to production.
Coming up with great new ideas is not a problem. We have a pretty good idea of what the next six APs are after Skull & Shackles, and of what interesting new twists we can provide in each.
2. while RotR is one of my favorite games of all time it's not perfect. I could say many good things about it, but properly tested and proofreaded won't be the first two coming into my mind. The number of things which needed clarifications or errata is high compared to any game I played.
First of all, the volume of clarifications that we've issued through the FAQ is because we have a very broad policy of posting changes that most companies would not. That is to say, a *huge* percentage of our clarifications would be below the threshold of most other company's FAQs. The vast majority of the cards we've fixed, for example, work correctly as originally written—we just saw the opportunity for improvement, and we took it.
Second, how many games have you played that have the *scope* of the Rise of the Runelords set? For comparison, it encompasses just about the same number of cards that appeared in Magic: The Gathering Alpha/Beta, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, and The Dark added together. I can assure you the combined errata for those sets was quite a bit bigger than ours.