A fight at high levels should be short and brutal (for both PCs and Enemies) with people being removed from combat in a single round, simply because that is what the system expects at this level.
How do we know this is what the system expects? Genuinely curious as to this, not trying to be argumentative. Was pathfinder truly designed to be rocket tag at higher levels?
A fight at high levels should be short and brutal (for both PCs and Enemies) with people being removed from combat in a single round, simply because that is what the system expects at this level.How do we know this is what the system expects? Genuinely curious as to this, not trying to be argumentative. Was pathfinder truly designed to be rocket tag at higher levels?
Simple, because damage out scales HP as you get into the higher levels. If you take a full attack on the chin you might not be getting up if most of them connect. Also, Save or Dies become increasingly common as you go up in levels, which means more chances to be taken out of a fight in a standard action. Furthermore, ways to restore a player to life as a standard action exist (thanks to Wish/Miracle).
At high levels, there are Save or Die spells, Save or Suck spells, and martial combatants often cause enough damage per hit to force Massive Damage Saves (granted, these only have a 5% chance of working (since most opponents can make a DC 15 Fort save on a natural 2), but martials can pretty much bring on the hurt all day long, and twice as long on those magical 48 hour days... ;-)
But healing can be fun, too! :-D
People who like healing can play a vitalist. That's why the class was created.
A Life Leech Sadist Soulthief Vitalist is on my "To play" list. Alignment: CG. Because the problem isn't that there are evil people in the world. The problem is that pain isn't properly distributed.
People who like healing can play a vitalist. That's why the class was created.
So if we want to survive long enough to have a decent game all we have to do is give up the concept we really wanted to play? Is that all? :P
Play what you enjoy! Go Team Cleric!
Simple, because damage out scales HP as you get into the higher levels. If you take a full attack on the chin you might not be getting up if most of them connect. Also, Save or Dies become increasingly common as you go up in levels, which means more chances to be taken out of a fight in a standard action.A fight at high levels should be short and brutal (for both PCs and Enemies) with people being removed from combat in a single round, simply because that is what the system expects at this level.How do we know this is what the system expects? Genuinely curious as to this, not trying to be argumentative. Was pathfinder truly designed to be rocket tag at higher levels?
While that's true, defenses are not outpaced. So, unless you're a glass cannon "most of them" will not connect.
Save or Die? Very few.
Right, RL, and because even tho attack bonuses DO increase faster than AC bonuses, other defenses kick in. My sorc barely bothers with AC, he uses Mirror Image, Blink, Greater Invis, etc. So, while AC is outpaced by Attack, defenses in general are not.
Simple, because damage out scales HP as you get into the higher levels. If you take a full attack on the chin you might not be getting up if most of them connect. Also, Save or Dies become increasingly common as you go up in levels, which means more chances to be taken out of a fight in a standard action.A fight at high levels should be short and brutal (for both PCs and Enemies) with people being removed from combat in a single round, simply because that is what the system expects at this level.How do we know this is what the system expects? Genuinely curious as to this, not trying to be argumentative. Was pathfinder truly designed to be rocket tag at higher levels?While that's true, defenses are not outpaced. So, unless you're a glass cannon "most of them" will not connect.
Save or Die? Very few.
You think there are *less* save or dies at high levels? I literally do not have a response for that and will instead redirect you the Wizard/Sorcerer list.
The game has basically become rocket tag for many players. i am glad my group is not one
I take it your group does not play at high levels or use any SoDs at any level whatsoever then?
The game has basically become rocket tag for many players. i am glad my group is not one
Without trying to derail the thread too much, would you care to elaborate?
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The game has basically become rocket tag for many players. i am glad my group is not oneWithout trying to derail the thread too much, would you care to elaborate?
Rocket tag, referring to trying to blow up the enemy without getting scratched fighting a foe that fights the same way. 2 glass cannons firing at each other, the first to hit wins. In my view a boring way to do things.
Rocket tag, referring to trying to blow up the enemy without getting scratched fighting a foe that fights the same way. 2 glass cannons firing at each other, the first to hit wins. In my view a boring way to do things.The game has basically become rocket tag for many players. i am glad my group is not oneWithout trying to derail the thread too much, would you care to elaborate?
Oh I am quite familiar with rocket tag. My group suffers from it currently. Just don't know how to change it or prevent it in the first place.
You think there are *less* save or dies at high levels? I literally do not have a response for that and will instead redirect you the Wizard/Sorcerer list.Simple, because damage out scales HP as you get into the higher levels. If you take a full attack on the chin you might not be getting up if most of them connect. Also, Save or Dies become increasingly common as you go up in levels, which means more chances to be taken out of a fight in a standard action.A fight at high levels should be short and brutal (for both PCs and Enemies) with people being removed from combat in a single round, simply because that is what the system expects at this level.How do we know this is what the system expects? Genuinely curious as to this, not trying to be argumentative. Was pathfinder truly designed to be rocket tag at higher levels?While that's true, defenses are not outpaced. So, unless you're a glass cannon "most of them" will not connect.
Save or Die? Very few.
Huh? No, there are very few Save or Die spells at any level.
Sorry, are we talking 'die' specifically or are 'out of the fight' (unconscious, petrified, etc.) spells being included?
All of those would be considered Save or Die since they take the target out of the fight, rather then Save or suck which merely inflict penalties.
And you realize DrDeth that there are *more* save or die style spells as you go up in level. And that's before hitting on stuff like Mass Suffocation.
As Lincoln noted, this might just be a difference in terms.
Sleep is not technically not a Save or Die spell, but if you fail the save and don't have an ally on hand to (immediately) wake you back up, you're basically just as dead as if you had failed the saves vs a Phantasmal Killer.
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Oh I am quite familiar with rocket tag. My group suffers from it currently. Just don't know how to change it or prevent it in the first place.Rocket tag, referring to trying to blow up the enemy without getting scratched fighting a foe that fights the same way. 2 glass cannons firing at each other, the first to hit wins. In my view a boring way to do things.The game has basically become rocket tag for many players. i am glad my group is not oneWithout trying to derail the thread too much, would you care to elaborate?
For us it was an agreement between players and GM that we are not going to minmax and hyper optimize. I actually switched characters recently because i was too far over the power curve on accident. The GM doesn't feel any need to fight to crush us, we are ripping up the current AP by teamwork and odd tactics
I'm always amazed when i here people say how a long combat for them is 3 or 4 rounds
To me that would be a quick to average combat as we find 6-8 rounds more the norm for my group .
And where not optermizers but our characters are good at there roles and we work well as a team so think there must be some combs of feats and spells that are just to OTT
Play the character you want to play. If you aren't having fun, then something is wrong.
I have to say though... Even with a basic group, in combat healing is very poorly matched up to damage...
I mean, lets compare th base CSW vs Fireball at caster level 5...
A CSW at CL 5 is 3d8+5= 18.5 to one targeton average.
A BASIC Fireball is 5d6=17.5 damage in a 30 ft radius on average.
So CSW can heal 1 more damage than a naked fireball to one guy. But that is a naked fireball with no rods, no meta-magic, no dips. Which, btw, you should never do... If the fireball was a bit more realistic to what you would normally do if you are the typoe to throw fireballs
A CSW at CL 6 is 3d8+6=19.5
A Crossblooded Sorcerer/Wizard Fireball(Wayang Spellhunter+Magical Leniage) w/empower at CL 5= 5d6+10+(5d5*0.5)=36.25 or 18.125 w successful save. This is also not accounting for the possibility of having a Goblin Wardrum which increases the average damage by another 5.
Additionally, it is easy for the wizard to crank out the damage since he only needs to optimize fireball. The healer:
1) Has less support. There is less feats and abilities that help crank out healing than feats that help make dealing damage better.
2) Can't just sit on one low level spell. Sure you can optimize the crap out of Heal.. but you won't get to use it till mid to late game. The CURE X WOUNDS spells are just too weak on their own.
I'm always amazed when i here people say how a long combat for them is 3 or 4 rounds
To me that would be a quick to average combat as we find 6-8 rounds more the norm for my group .
And where not optermizers but our characters are good at there roles and we work well as a team so think there must be some combs of feats and spells that are just to OTT
Well the number that level 1 needs to account for is 2d6+6 (An average of 13 damage, 3.5+3.5+6) And that's just a Two-handed Greatsword with a 18 STR backing it. I find few CR 1-3 monsters survive more then 1-2 rounds of that. Don't get me wrong... it's not impossible for fights to go longer then 4 rounds... its just very rare. I truthfully suspect some GMs must be "extending" their fights by giving monsters more HP or using 8+ enemies every encounter. (And if its CR appropriate even those should get cleaned up in 2-3 turns...) I don't really consider an 18 STR, two handed weapon wielder optimizing, so perhaps someone could share their experience where their average encounter goes 6+ rounds?
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I think most parties would welcome a healer in their ranks.
I have never seen a table.if PFS that was disappointed with a healer. It is a culture where everybody us expected to bring their own healing in the firm if a CLW wand in hopes someone in the group can activate them, yet u have still only seen healers welcome, often very thankfully, when at a table.
I believe there are so many striker players, that they might actually be.glad when a healer does nit overkill the encounted round 2 as another striker. This gives more chance for each player to actually participate, rather then find the fight us over before their initiative comes up or by the time they move from the back to the front when several tanks result in a rearguard in addition to the strong front.
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I've played the healer before. It sucks at low level, but as you increase in level and get more options, it's not so bad.
I still prefer melee damage types, but they tend to have the opposite trend.
I'm always amazed when i here people say how a long combat for them is 3 or 4 rounds
To me that would be a quick to average combat as we find 6-8 rounds more the norm for my group .
And where not optermizers but our characters are good at there roles and we work well as a team so think there must be some combs of feats and spells that are just to OTT
To be fair, when people say that combat lasts 3-4 rounds often what they mean is "3-4 rounds where things are really intense, then another 2 rounds of mopping up debuffed/battlefield controlled/outnumbered enemies."
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I've played the healer before. It sucks at low level, but as you increase in level and get more options, it's not so bad.
I still prefer melee damage types, but they tend to have the opposite trend.
I've played several 'healer' classes at low level and had a much different experience.
Low level healers may not have a ton of spells available, but neither do any other PCs (or enemies for that matter).If you start a vanilla Cleric, you get 3, maybe 4 Channels, two potential CLW spells, and a bonus Domain spell per day.
You also get to use Scrolls of CLW which are half the price of potions.
Most low level healers can activate scrolls of almost any divine utility spell there is with no sweat. If you stock up on 1st and 2nd level scrolls, you will always have something to do and can save the party's bacon often.
I have found that low level healers have tons of options and resources available.
Without optimization, they can also participate in combat on more-or-less equal footing to front-line melee types, at least for the first two levels.
That being said, I love healing, but the maximum healing a high level character can deal doesn't even begin to match the several thousand dpr thats been obtained in the dpr olympics. Not even by a long shot.
That is precisely the problem that the OP ran into and the main issue in this thread. Optimization and DPR Olympics do not represent the realities of what happens on the tabletop. It has an important place on the boards, and optimization can help players learn the system and make their own characters stronger and more fun to play.
IMO, it does not and should not reflect the 'reality' of actual gameplay.
Design Manager
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***I truthfully suspect some GMs must be "extending" their fights by giving monsters more HP or using 8+ enemies every encounter.***
We do this (at least the HP part), particularly for encounters where it doesn't really make sense for the BBEG to have a bunch of minions absorbing damage and dragging out the fight. Dragons and other extremely large enemies will frequently be given 2-4x the normal hit points, particularly if they are a little lacking in the magical abilities / spellcasting department.
We do that primarily because no one was having fun when it took the party a single round to wipe out APL + 1-2 encounters, and trying to ratchet things up into APL + 4-5 often just meant that the party was either going to have the tool for the job and succeed, or not have it and just lose, with no middleground for luck or ingenuity.
Anyways, yeah, rocket tag is a thing that the game encourages at high levels, and we deal with it in two ways:
1) Understand as a GM that sometimes the party deserves the win. Don't get so attached to an encounter that you aren't willing to let something you thought was going to be epic turn into a minor speed bump. They're heroes, sometimes heroes get to rock the bad guys.
2) Use CR and hit die as guidelines instead of hard rules. The CR system isn't consistent within itself, it can't possibly account for all of the variations players can bring to the table. Start at the recommendation and tweak up or down as needed. As your party's general optimization levels rise, consider applying the Advanced template (maybe more than once) to creatures that are supposed to pose a challenge, and consider applying a hit point multiplier to "boss" enemies to buy them an extra round or two.
On the main subject though, we almost always have someone playing some kind of healer in the party, and it's a rare day when my group doesn't have someone who finds themselves in desperate need of healing mid-combat. It helps a bit to run classes who are more efficient or powerful healers; Life Oracles can provide constant level-appropriate healing throughout pretty much every level of play, at a rate that is competitive with the damage the party is taking. Even if you're not playing a highly specialized healer like that, you'll probably still find that you have a great time and make a solid contribution to the party. The game is actually is balanced substantially in favor of the party to win; you don't have to play at high optimization levels to succeed.
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I would say, as others have:
1. Your idea to lower cha and get Extra Channeling is exactly what I am doing for much the same reason. Plus clerics have measly skills to begin with and you need them for Spellcraft and knowledge and perception etc. You don't have them to spare for Diplomacy.
2. As people also advised pick several roles. Healing and cleansing is one. Secondly pick two of: buff, debuff, melee, summon, spell damage. You can contribute with all of those.
3. I like using channel to heal, and not Cure spells. This saves your spells for your other roles when you need them, and also means you are not wasting time moving to the person or failing concentration checks.
The above assumes you're starting at 1 and going up. By the time you cast 6th level spells you'll have a better feel for your group and what they need.
I only played one PFS session but there was no mention of having to own the books. Maybe I would have been told do if I went back. But there are plenty of non PFS Pathfinder groups out there. You can also look on roll20.net for a group, we play on that (with guys I grew up with and live in different parts of the country now), and then you can play with anyone anywhere. There is an "LFG" type function.
I've played the healer before. It sucks at low level, but as you increase in level and get more options, it's not so bad.
I still prefer melee damage types, but they tend to have the opposite trend.I've played several 'healer' classes at low level and had a much different experience.
Low level healers may not have a ton of spells available, but neither do any other PCs (or enemies for that matter).
If you start a vanilla Cleric, you get 3, maybe 4 Channels, two potential CLW spells, and a bonus Domain spell per day.
You also get to use Scrolls of CLW which are half the price of potions.Most low level healers can activate scrolls of almost any divine utility spell there is with no sweat. If you stock up on 1st and 2nd level scrolls, you will always have something to do and can save the party's bacon often.
I have found that low level healers have tons of options and resources available.
Without optimization, they can also participate in combat on more-or-less equal footing to front-line melee types, at least for the first two levels.
That being said, I love healing, but the maximum healing a high level character can deal doesn't even begin to match the several thousand dpr thats been obtained in the dpr olympics. Not even by a long shot.That is precisely the problem that the OP ran into and the main issue in this thread. Optimization and DPR Olympics do not represent the realities of what happens on the tabletop. It has an important place on the boards, and optimization can help players learn the system and make their own characters stronger and more fun to play.
IMO, it does not and should not reflect the 'reality' of actual gameplay.
By options I meant "healing or not healing". Sure there are many different ways to heal, but other than throwing a bless now and then, not much there till you get some levels.