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There has been some discussion of how mundane and magical armor interacts with magical sources of armor bonuses and I thought it would be good to post a question in the Rules Forum.
Let's start with Bracers of Armor. It's obvious what happens when the bonuses are different. What happens when the bonuses are equal?
Bracers of Armor
Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table: Armor Special Qualities for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
Let's ignore the question of how mundane armor can cease functioning (or why it would need to) and look at what happens if I am wearing +1 Light Fortification Scale Mail and +6 Shadow Bracers of Armor. The Scale Mail provides does not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Bracers of Armor are functioning. The Bracers of Armor do not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Scale Mail is still functioning. A strict reading of the rules says that I now have a +6 Armor Bonus and I benefit from both Light Fortification and Shadow. Is this intentional?
It gets more complicated.
Let's say I change things up and I put on a +1 Light Fortification Breastplate (+7 AC), a +1 Spell Resistance Armored Coat (+5 AC), and lastly, +6 Shadow Bracers of Armor (+6 AC).
Armored Coat
Okay... So, the Bracers of Armor shuts down the Armored Coat, but the Breastplate shuts down the Bracers of Armor, but the Armored Coat shuts down the Breastplate, but the Bracers of Armor shut down the Armored Coat, but ... And I just spin like a wheel while the bad guys throw knives to entertain the table. What is supposed to take precedence in this unlikely scenario.
Finally, I do not own the book for the Armored Kilt, but I will be GMing PFS games and it might come up. The description I could find for the armored kilt was:
There is nothing to say that the armor bonus of the kilt is added to the armor bonus of the armor it is added to, but I do not see a benefit of adding it if it is not added. A Chain Shirt with Armored Kilt is a base +5 AC, +4 Max Dex, -2 Armored Check Penalty, 20% Arcane Spell Failure Medium Armor. Correct?
Can the armored kilt be enchanted and added to nonmagical armor with the final armor benefiting from the Kilt's enchantments?
Can a nonmagical armored kilt be added to magical armor with the final armor benefiting from the magic armor's enchantments?
If a magical armored kilt is added to other magical armor, what enchantments does the final armor have?
If the armor kilt and/or the armor it is added to have special materials, does the final armor benefit from either or none of the special materials?
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Ok, I'll answer these questions as best I can.
look at what happens if I am wearing +1 Light Fortification Scale Mail and +6 Shadow Bracers of Armor. The Scale Mail provides does not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Bracers of Armor are functioning. The Bracers of Armor do not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Scale Mail is still functioning. A strict reading of the rules says that I now have a +6 Armor Bonus and I benefit from both Light Fortification and Shadow. Is this intentional?
Yes, you would be right. As with the grand majority of bonus types, armor bonuses to AC don't stack so you would use the armor bonus of whichever item has it the highest and ignore the rest. If two items are tied in armor bonus, choose one it matters not. Since the "shadow" and "light fortification" magic armor special abilities are not armor bonuses to AC they do stack, so you would gain the benefit of both those item's magic armor special abilities but only one of their armor bonus to AC.
There is nothing to say that the armor bonus of the kilt is added to the armor bonus of the armor it is added to, but I do not see a benefit of adding it if it is not added. A Chain Shirt with Armored Kilt is a base +5 AC, +4 Max Dex, -2 Armored Check Penalty, 20% Arcane Spell Failure Medium Armor. Correct?
Like I said armor bonuses don't stack, so the final AC would be a +4 AC, +4 max dex, -2 armor check penalty (just like a regular 'ol chainshirt). In fact the only thing adding a non-magical armored kilt to a non-magical chainshirt would turn it to a medium armor and add 10 extra pounds to body. The armored kilt is usually used casters who fear the arcane spell failure chance of other armors.
Can the armored kilt be enchanted and added to nonmagical armor with the final armor benefiting from the Kilt's enchantments?
Yep.
Can a nonmagical armored kilt be added to magical armor with the final armor benefiting from the magic armor's enchantments?
Yep, but remember that in this case the armored kilt wont give you extra
armor to AC, bu it will upgrade the armor type unless its already heavy armor, and add 10 lbs to your body.
If a magical armored kilt is added to other magical armor, what enchantments does the final armor have?
Both, I believe.
If the armor kilt and/or the armor it is added to have special materials, does the final armor benefit from either or none of the special materials?
Hmm, although very unlikely this will come up in play, this is a good question. I honestly have no idea.
your armor only counts as being made of the most plentiful material.
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Let's ignore the question of how mundane armor can cease functioning (or why it would need to) and look at what happens if I am wearing +1 Light Fortification Scale Mail and +6 Shadow Bracers of Armor. The Scale Mail provides does not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Bracers of Armor are functioning. The Bracers of Armor do not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Scale Mail is still functioning. A strict reading of the rules says that I now have a +6 Armor Bonus and I benefit from both Light Fortification and Shadow.
We're once again in the "source of the bonus" territory, which is hideously confusing and has no clear-cut answer. Remember this from the Bracers of Armor description?
If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
That can be read as
1) The armor bonus from the other source ceases functioning or2) The source (+1 Light Fortification Scale Mail) ceases functioning.
In case 2, the scale mail provides NO bonuses or abilities. That is the way I rule because (and this is a dirty sequence of words around here) common sense says that the bracers aren't intended to allow you to skirt the increasing item costs.
I hope you get an answer that satisfies your group!
You only get the benefits of one source of armor. You either get the +1 and fortification OR the +6 shadow, not both.
If you read it otherwise, it would allow you to circumvent the armor pricing rules. You could have +1 enhancement on your armor for 1000gp and light fortification (+1 equivalent) on Bracers for 1000gp, for a total of 2000gp, verses +1 light fortification armor (+2 equivalent) for 4000gp.
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Let's ignore the question of how mundane armor can cease functioning (or why it would need to) and look at what happens if I am wearing +1 Light Fortification Scale Mail and +6 Shadow Bracers of Armor. The Scale Mail provides does not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Bracers of Armor are functioning. The Bracers of Armor do not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Scale Mail is still functioning. A strict reading of the rules says that I now have a +6 Armor Bonus and I benefit from both Light Fortification and Shadow.We're once again in the "source of the bonus" territory, which is hideously confusing and has no clear-cut answer. Remember this from the Bracers of Armor description?
If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.That can be read as
1) The armor bonus from the other source ceases functioning or
2) The source (+1 Light Fortification Scale Mail) ceases functioning.In case 2, the scale mail provides NO bonuses or abilities. That is the way I rule because (and this is a dirty sequence of words around here) common sense says that the bracers aren't intended to allow you to skirt the increasing item costs.
I hope you get an answer thathe satisfies your group!
That quote doesn't apply. In the example I gave, the armor bonuses are equal, so what happens?
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Ok, I'll answer these questions as best I can.
look at what happens if I am wearing +1 Light Fortification Scale Mail and +6 Shadow Bracers of Armor. The Scale Mail provides does not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Bracers of Armor are functioning. The Bracers of Armor do not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Scale Mail is still functioning. A strict reading of the rules says that I now have a +6 Armor Bonus and I benefit from both Light Fortification and Shadow. Is this intentional?Yes, you would be right. As with the grand majority of bonus types, armor bonuses to AC don't stack so you would use the armor bonus of whichever item has it the highest and ignore the rest. If two items are tied in armor bonus, choose one it matters not. Since the "shadow" and "light fortification" magic armor special abilities are not armor bonuses to AC they do stack, so you would gain the benefit of both those item's magic armor special abilities but only one of their armor bonus to AC.
True, but if you look at the rules for Bracers of Armor, I think it is likely that it is not the developers' intentions and this scenario whith equal armor bonuses is an oversight.
There is nothing to say that the armor bonus of the kilt is added to the armor bonus of the armor it is added to, but I do not see a benefit of adding it if it is not added. A Chain Shirt with Armored Kilt is a base +5 AC, +4 Max Dex, -2 Armored Check Penalty, 20% Arcane Spell Failure Medium Armor. Correct?Like I said armor bonuses don't stack, so the final AC would be a +4 AC, +4 max dex, -2 armor check penalty (just like a regular 'ol chainshirt). In fact the only thing adding a non-magical armored kilt to a non-magical chainshirt would turn it to a medium armor and add 10 extra pounds to body. The armored kilt is usually used casters who fear the arcane spell failure chance of other armors.
Then what is the advantage of adding an armor kilt to a suit of armor?
Doesn't that create a situation where two slotted magical items are trying to occupy the same slot? (In which case, the second one does not function.)If a magical armored kilt is added to other magical armor, what enchantments does the final armor have?Both, I believe.
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Then what is the advantage of adding an armor kilt to a suit of armor?
The original Pathfinder Chronicles - Campaign Setting page 211 states:
"Adding an armored kilt increases a suit of armor’s armor bonus by +1, but it adds 15 pounds to the armor, lowers the maximum Dex bonus by
1, and increases the armor’s weight category (from light to medium and from medium to heavy). Adding an armored kilt to heavy armor does not provide an armor bonus increase."
As to the other questions, seems like I was off; listen to JB2000 and Belafon, they look like they know what they're talking about.
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Well, while Belafon's post does reflect, I believe, the rules as intended, it has no rules support to determine which special property is in effect.
J b 200 has the same issue. I believe RAI is apparent, but RAW does not indicate which special property is in effect.
Thank you for clarifying the armor kilt.
Actually it's not really any different to having a shield with light fort and armour with shadow. I can't see anything invalidating the effectiveness of both special abilities.
And it's not so much as one armour 'ceasing to function' so much as if you can get past the better armour you get past the weaker (when you start putting together magical armour you have the same checklist of what to protect in what order as physical armour :)). I can't find any rule that says armour or the enchantments on it 'ceases to function'.
And after some reflection you must be able to enchant a kilt separately as it can be worn by itself. Obviously enhancement bonuses wouldn't stack as when you add it to a suit of armour it modifies that armour, but again I can see no reason that special abilities wouldn't function.
I might have strong words with the player who had +1 fort chain shirt and +1 shadow Plate over the top, but technically that would work too, near as I can tell.
That quote doesn't apply. In the example I gave, the armor bonuses are equal, so what happens?Let's ignore the question of how mundane armor can cease functioning (or why it would need to) and look at what happens if I am wearing +1 Light Fortification Scale Mail and +6 Shadow Bracers of Armor. The Scale Mail provides does not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Bracers of Armor are functioning. The Bracers of Armor do not provide a greater armor bonus, so the Scale Mail is still functioning. A strict reading of the rules says that I now have a +6 Armor Bonus and I benefit from both Light Fortification and Shadow.We're once again in the "source of the bonus" territory, which is hideously confusing and has no clear-cut answer. Remember this from the Bracers of Armor description?
If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.That can be read as
1) The armor bonus from the other source ceases functioning or
2) The source (+1 Light Fortification Scale Mail) ceases functioning.In case 2, the scale mail provides NO bonuses or abilities. That is the way I rule because (and this is a dirty sequence of words around here) common sense says that the bracers aren't intended to allow you to skirt the increasing item costs.
I hope you get an answer thathe satisfies your group!
First off, BoA are a special case. Neither the armor rules nor Mage Armor have any language of interfering with each other, and both are core.
The source of the armor bonus of a suit of scale mail is the suit of armor. The way the BoA rules are written not only would it not provide its armor bonus (no biggie due to normal stacking rules) and magical effects, it would no longer have an armor check penalty.
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Dragonhunterq, the rules for magic item slots says that the second suit of armor does not function. Although, the armored coat overrides the order for some reason.
PokeyCA, bracers of armor are also special case, but their special wording does not cover what happens when the armor bonuses are equal. I had not considered the armor check penalty. That's weird.
Their special wording does cover when the bonuses are equal.
Use binary logic.
Is Bracers of armor > suit of armor (Yes/No)
No = Suit of armor provides armor bonus, not bracers.
Yes = Bracers of Armor provide armor bonus, suit of armor does not.
Okay... So, the Bracers of Armor shuts down the Armored Coat, but the Breastplate shuts down the Bracers of Armor, but the Armored Coat shuts down the Breastplate, but the Bracers of Armor shut down the Armored Coat, but ... And I just spin like a wheel while the bad guys throw knives to entertain the table. What is supposed to take precedence in this unlikely scenario.
No, the Armored Coat does not "shut down the breastplae". In this case, you use the Breastplate's armor value (because +7 > +5), and "worse value in all other categories";
So, ultimately, you will have a +7 AC, and the bracers will be useless to you.
yay for no edit function! - i kinda realised my mistake with the two armours bit a fraction too late :) and that is now all anyone will pay attention too :(
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Dragonhunterq, you can edit your post for about an hour after posting. It is a link with FAQ, Reply, and the others.
Their special wording does cover when the bonuses are equal.
Use binary logic.
Is Bracers of armor > suit of armor (Yes/No)
No = Suit of armor provides armor bonus, not bracers.
Yes = Bracers of Armor provide armor bonus, suit of armor does not.
Actually, reread the description. It is not an if/else clause.
If armor > bracers, bracers shut down. If bracers > armor, armor shuts down. The scenario where the bonuses are equal is explicitly not covered. Binary logic doesn't help.
My apologies for not including the full quote for Bracers of Armor. I apparently only included the first paragraph.
Okay... So, the Bracers of Armor shuts down the Armored Coat, but the Breastplate shuts down the Bracers of Armor, but the Armored Coat shuts down the Breastplate, but the Bracers of Armor shut down the Armored Coat, but ... And I just spin like a wheel while the bad guys throw knives to entertain the table. What is supposed to take precedence in this unlikely scenario.
No, the Armored Coat does not "shut down the breastplae". In this case, you use the Breastplate's armor value (because +7 > +5), and "worse value in all other categories";
So, ultimately, you will have a +7 AC, and the bracers will be useless to you.
I am having copy and paste issues on my phone, but please reread the quote for armored coat rules from my first post, specifically the last sentence.
You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be for reasons I can't fathom.
The rules are meant to be read with your brain engaged.
lol! "brain engaged"!
The Armored Coat is an anomalie that shouldn't exist. As written, it just makes a worst-case scenario of the combo armor + armored coat.
It's a case of the bracers *or* the combo armor + armored coat. That's how I read the above quotes (so RAW), and it's got to be the RAI.
You shouldn't be able to combine the special properties of the bracers and those of the combo armor + armored coat. That would be circumventing the armor cost limits.
So dump the kvetchy armor and the cheesy armor coat, go bracers and wear something light that shows off your ripped muscles (and/or curves). Much more satisfying fluff.
Actually, reread the description. It is not an if/else clause.If armor > bracers, bracers shut down. If bracers > armor, armor shuts down. The scenario where the bonuses are equal is explicitly not covered. Binary logic doesn't help.
My apologies for not including the full quote for Bracers of Armor. I apparently only included the first paragraph.
If the bracers are greater than the armor, the bracers apply. Everything else follows that. Or, simply have the player pick which one he wants to use and the other does not apply, since they do not stack.
Also, you can't have any effects on bracers that are a strict gp value. So "shadow" bracers are verboten as well.
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I didn't check whether it was a gp or +1 property when I made the example. I think +6 spell resistance bracers would work for my example.
I am beginning PFS gming and would like to provide a consistent table experience. To that end, I cannot ban the armor and I would like to see the issues, rare as they might be addressed in a FAQ or errata.
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This thread has come up many times in the past, so it's a source of table variation and is a good FAQ candidate.
I've actually seen it come up more often than not in PFS play.
I tend to rule that whichever source grants the higher armor bonus is in play, and and any lesser sources are out of play. It's just an easy rule to remember in this form.
For example, +1 deathless, light fortification quilted armor provides zero benefit when mage armor goes up (or bracers of armor +4 get put on).
I used to rule this multiple ways depending on the circumstance, but I think it made it too confusing to be consistent in table play. This does have the side effect of meaning that someone with a breastplate derives no benefit from mage armor (as the +6 trumps the +4) and thus the incorporeal benefit provided by mage armor.
That comes up fairly often, as a common obvious tactic to use against incorporeal adversaries is to apply mage armor. One side of the coin draws from the read of bracers of armor and mage armor being nearly identical effects and bracers explicitly prohibiting such combinations (as well as the read from the armor bonuses section). The other side of the coin specifically calls out this text being absent in mage armor indicating intent that mage armor will be additive to another armor (in terms of effects that can all function, not the armor bonuses).
It would be nice if mage armor is intended to work in addition to another armor that it would be explicitly stated to do so in any future editions. Or a FAQ entry to make it clear either way, so +1 from me (which in this case stacks with the other +1s from readers!)