I see a problem developing


Advice


As some might know, I'm running a switch hitting Ranger. Another in our party is running a Archer Rogue.

In our "biggest" fight, so far. I bested his archery efforts easily. He tried hard and moved often to get his flanking/SA bonus. Little to no success, and some very questionable bonuses. We didn't call him on it cause it does favor the group. I just stood around picking off the opposition, enjoying my FE bonuses to hit/damage. Question below:

How would you go about convincing him, drop the bow and grab a sword weapon?

Rest of party is a barbarian and cleric. I think we could definitely benefit more from another mele participant then a lacking archer relying on perfect movement, flanking, & his SA. I'm not trying to ruin his fun, I'm just trying to make a better party able to deal w/more. Thanks for inputs.


first off, you don't get flanking using ranged weapons.

Quote:

Flanking

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

One strategy that might work would be to have him grab shatter defenses, and hopefully someone (barbarian perhaps), can put the shaken condition on an opponent followed by him making them flat footed.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

unless there's a rogue talent or something that i don't know about, you can't flank with a bow... which means the only way to get SA with one is to be attacking an unaware target. if you point out that what he's trying to do isn't even possible under the rules he may switch.


Barring some exceptions, rogues are not big damage dealers. On top of that rogue archers are weak. If he is fine with that then there is no problem.

If he do not like his character performance but he he still wants to follow that path, convince hm to multiclas into weapon master fighter for a couple of feats and weapon training.

EDIT: AS other have pointed out, there is no ranged flanking.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The best advice I can offer you is to not try and force another player in your group to have fun your way.

After all, your playing a Ranger with more HP and a better attack bonus, why don't you "drop the bow and grab a sword weapon"?

-Skeld


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Skeld wrote:

The best advice I can offer you is to not try and force another player in your group to have fun your way.

After all, your playing a Ranger with more HP and a better attack bonus, why don't you "drop the bow and grab a sword weapon"?

-Skeld

He has somewhat taken up the sword. Being a "switch hitter" means he is both melee and range. Also he doesn't seem to want to force the player to do this. It seems he is worried about making the other player feel inadequate due to his Ranger easily outclassing him.

The best advice I can give into the situation is to let him keep going with archery until he does want to switch. Then when and if he does offer him help with going melee.


The short answer is, "Rogues are terrible." This isn't meant to be another rogue-bashing thread, I know... But, the horrible truth is, if you rolled up an Expert and told your friends it was a rogue, the likelihood is they would never notice.

Sorry, but it's true. SA is too situational, and even if they have opportunity, their 3/4 BAB means they miss too frequently. There's no good solution, unfortunately. Either live with being sub-par, or roll up another PC.


The flanking w/ranged weapon is what we all thought to be suspect. But didn't bother going to the books right away. He's often mistaken on rules details. I'm new myself, but stick the KISS method.
Would the SA damage still land from distance if Enemy is engaged in mele?
I do have my sword ready to go if needed, in this fight, it wasn't.
I'm definitely not trying to have him play my way, just fairly.
It's been a frequent happening with him to fudge numbers, accidentally possibly purposely. It's not fun when the rest of the party is honest, and your teammate is always suspected of "bad math." Lastly, I'm not trying to be the rules police. No one likes that guy, and it'd do more to ruining his fun then coercing him into a new weapon.


SMIB wrote:

The flanking w/ranged weapon is what we all thought to be suspect. But didn't bother going to the books right away. He's often mistaken on rules details. I'm new myself, but stick the KISS method.

Would the SA damage still land from distance if Enemy is engaged in mele?

Yes he can get sneak attack at range but it is difficult to do and the basic range for it is within 30 feet, though there are some abilities that can increase that. However he can't get flank with a bow so won't get the +2 bonus or sneak attack that way. He will need some other method, stealth is one way but after the first shot the difficulty to stay hidden is huge. Another way is for another party member to cause the mob to lose it's dex bonus.

Also he will be at -8 to hit if firing into melee unless he has a clear shot - firing through another party members square grants a cover bonus of -4, and firing at a mob in melee is an automatic -4. That can be fixed by taking the feat precise shot to get rid of the -4 for firing into melee, and movement to get a clear shot - he would need to be significantly higher than ground level to shoot downwards or be out to the side or even behind the enemy lines to get a clear shot.

Rogue's aren't terrible as has been suggested, but they have to be built well, and you have to know how to play them to their best advantage. I love mine but you have to work out what you are doing. My party barbarian just charges in and uses cleave or greater cleave and smushes without much need for thought. I have to plan my movement and positioning to max my bonuses. At times I can decimate mobs with 4 attacks, flanking bonus, sneak damage etc, other times like in our last fight I was using my tertiary weapon set with no flank or other bonuses and my biggest contribution was that I didn't get hurt so didn't need healing from the cleric.


SMIB wrote:

The flanking w/ranged weapon is what we all thought to be suspect. But didn't bother going to the books right away. He's often mistaken on rules details. I'm new myself, but stick the KISS method.

Would the SA damage still land from distance if Enemy is engaged in mele?

If you are asking can he get SA from a ranged attacked due to flanking the answer is no.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

his character should spend 48-60 weeks retraining as a vivisectionist alchemist... or something. like the number of classes better than the rogue at ranged attacking is basically everyone else with 3/4 or more BAB. SA simply does not become useful on a ranged character, and so by going ranged he throwing away arguably his classes only chance to stay up there damage wise.

so yeah, telling them that SA does not work in combat at ranged, he may try to stab people.


Bandw2 wrote:

his character should spend 48-60 weeks retraining as a vivisectionist alchemist... or something. like the number of classes better than the rogue at ranged attacking is basically everyone else with 3/4 or more BAB. SA simply does not become useful on a ranged character, and so by going ranged he throwing away arguably his classes only chance to stay up there damage wise.

so yeah, telling them that SA does not work in combat at ranged, he may try to stab people.

Lmao! That's what I'm trying to avoid. I don't want to rain on his parade, I just want his parade to take the right course. I'm going to huddle up w/the other players and figure out the best approach. Thanks for inputs.


Maybe let him rewrite his character into a Slayer? He'll get almost the exact same feel as with the Rogue (sneak attack, lots of skills, trapfinding, etc.) except he'll be, y'know, good.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
SMIB wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

his character should spend 48-60 weeks retraining as a vivisectionist alchemist... or something. like the number of classes better than the rogue at ranged attacking is basically everyone else with 3/4 or more BAB. SA simply does not become useful on a ranged character, and so by going ranged he throwing away arguably his classes only chance to stay up there damage wise.

so yeah, telling them that SA does not work in combat at ranged, he may try to stab people.

Lmao! That's what I'm trying to avoid. I don't want to rain on his parade, I just want his parade to take the right course. I'm going to huddle up w/the other players and figure out the best approach. Thanks for inputs.

trust me he's been making his own rain, this was going to happen eventually. See if the GM will let him Retcon his character to what ever he wants, like a fighter(just use light armor and get high intelligence so he can put ranks into stealth and things) and use the bonus feats to get good ranged feats.

it's funny the armor bonus fighters get make them better at stealthing than the rogue arguably... (but no sneak attack)

also, if he goes melee see if the vivisectionist alchemist intrigues him. spells and the ability to stab people from the shadows/back.

Grand Lodge

Rogues are fine, in certain games. If you are playing a combat heavy game and the group is very combat oriented, then the ranged rogue is going to feel pretty much useless. If combat is just part of the game and the character is good at several other things, then a ranged rogue is fine. He should be fine on the opening volley of combat and then be looking to switch to other options or just take his straight damage and move on.

I am playing a TWF rogue. Far from overly optimized for combat, but our group is very short on skills and versatility. I have very high stealth, disable device, disguise, and a large range of other skills at usable levels. I scout and search for traps and in combat I look to set up flanks or protect our casters. Well, that is if still conscious. I have made some poor tactical decisions that led to taking a short nap on the floor while bleeding.


What level is the party? After about 6th, a rogue is going to be disappointed in his melee performance too when compared to most anyone else trying to engage in melee. I speak from experience here.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the class. It's too much fun out of combat.


We're playing Vanilla everything for this time around. So all of the brilliant ideas provided will do no good.
I'm hoping he figures it (how much his current plan) isn't going to help the squad. But there's other build paths that can, & other ways that he can be an asset. Using his skills when situations call for it. Literally "playing his role"


I would talk to your GM and other players about what the rogue is doing and ways you might be able to help him. If necessary you may have to confront him directly (in a non-oppositional way).

You could also ask your GM to houserule ranged sneak attacks with a feat or similar ("you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon if you are within 30ft of a target who is already engaged in melee") without overpowering or breaking the rogue's concept at all.

However, if he is actually cheating the rules deliberately... as a GM I have absolutely no tolerance for accidentally-maybe-intentionally rules bending. If he needs to cheat to be effective, he should have raised the issue with the group openly instead.


For those asking if rogues can flank at range. Level 10 ones and up can with an advanced talent.

melee archer


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
SMIB wrote:

We're playing Vanilla everything for this time around. So all of the brilliant ideas provided will do no good.

I'm hoping he figures it (how much his current plan) isn't going to help the squad. But there's other build paths that can, & other ways that he can be an asset. Using his skills when situations call for it. Literally "playing his role"

having the GM allow him to be a fighter isn't Vanilla?


Thomas Long 175 wrote:

For those asking if rogues can flank at range. Level 10 ones and up can with an advanced talent.

melee archer

That is a 3rd party ability so it needs GM permission to be used.


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True, but its one way he can help him out :) Thought i'd throw out a suggestion


Bandw2 wrote:
SMIB wrote:

We're playing Vanilla everything for this time around. So all of the brilliant ideas provided will do no good.

I'm hoping he figures it (how much his current plan) isn't going to help the squad. But there's other build paths that can, & other ways that he can be an asset. Using his skills when situations call for it. Literally "playing his role"
having the GM allow him to be a fighter isn't Vanilla?

I didn't click the link, and no a fighter is, vanilla. I'm sure he will not switch classes. The time I've played w/him he's been waiting this moment to be a rogue. Iim just going to challenge his methods next game and point out the facts. Maybe he'll the want to grab that sword, get in close and reward himself w/his beloved SA.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
SMIB wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
SMIB wrote:

We're playing Vanilla everything for this time around. So all of the brilliant ideas provided will do no good.

I'm hoping he figures it (how much his current plan) isn't going to help the squad. But there's other build paths that can, & other ways that he can be an asset. Using his skills when situations call for it. Literally "playing his role"
having the GM allow him to be a fighter isn't Vanilla?
I didn't click the link, and no a fighter is, vanilla. I'm sure he will not switch classes. The time I've played w/him he's been waiting this moment to be a rogue. Iim just going to challenge his methods next game and point out the facts. Maybe he'll the want to grab that sword, get in close and reward himself w/his beloved SA.

I explained that a fighter is a BETTER combat rogue, than a rogue. they just don't get precision damage. He'd be firing arrows with rapid fire, and killing people pretty consistently for a while. rogue, is just kinda... going to get pretty meh for him sooner rather than later.

there's more discussions on this, but basically the rogue is the worst at fulfilling his job(or at least needs a lot of system mastery) so he's pretty much going to want a different class if he wants to do rogue things and be awesome at them.

I'm also going to recommend this so you can open yourself up to more of the "vanilla" stuff. Particularly the base classes and alternate classes.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CrabSage wrote:
He has somewhat taken up the sword. Being a "switch hitter" means he is both melee and range.

I understand what a switch hitter means.

My point is that, unless the Rogue player is unhappy with his character and asking the Ranger player for advice, the Ranger player doesn't need to give the Rogue player unsolicited advice. The jist of the OP is "my character is incidentally better at a thing than this other character that is actively trying to be good at a thing, so I want to convince him to give up the thing that he wants to do in favor of the thing I think he should do."

I still think the best advice to the OP is to mind his own character unless the other player is asking for his advice.

-Skeld


unless the rogue is pulling down the rest of the party...then get your game up


I would only point out the rules. If he wants to continue with the rogue that is up to him.

The Exchange

The standard methods of acquiring Sneak Attack opportunities are flanking and feint, both of which only work for melee attacks. The best way to get Sneak Attack damage consistently at range is to be invisible... all the time...

Other than that, it may be an idea for the archer Rogue to look into using poisoned arrows (maybe with an eye towards the Assassin prestige class?)... although if the rest of the group is churning out reasonable damage then a fight can often be over before poison does much...


nate lange wrote:
unless there's a rogue talent or something that i don't know about, you can't flank with a bow... which means the only way to get SA with one is to be attacking an unaware target. if you point out that what he's trying to do isn't even possible under the rules he may switch.
Sneak Attack wrote:
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Melee Archer wrote:
A rogue with this talent may flank enemies 10 feet away from her while using a ranged weapon, as if the ranged weapon were a reach weapon. If the rogue threatens squares with her ranged weapons (i.e., through the Snap Shot feat,) she may also flank enemies inside her threatened area.

So, yes, it can be done, but the rogue has to spec into it. Because of the range stipulation a single hand crossbow and a cestus so the hand is free to load it and punch people is for the best.


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wraithstrike wrote:
I would only point out the rules. If he wants to continue with the rogue that is up to him.

This is what I'm going to go with. It's not about trying to make him change his character. The problem is him not understanding his character and rules. Then, using rogue like tactics to make his rogue "the best" on the table. This will only get worse as other PC develop, and his starts to lack.

Again, I'm going to go with the "hey buddy, you're not playing the rules correctly. You'd might be better off doing X instead. But the BS flag has been thrown on your current tactics."
I could just sit by and start taking a +2 flank bonus of my own as I sit 60' away. Where's the integrity/fun in that?


He made sub optimal choices, it doesnt mean he needs to change.


The person either doesn't give a s+%+ if he deals alright damage, feels that to play a rogue his class must be a rogue, and/or doesn't understand the flanking mechanics. I honestly don't see anything wrong with giving him advice to play a ranged "rogue" or suggesting for him to go melee, but the odds are that he won't follow them.

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