Aah! The werewolf broke out of its origin thread! Someone get me a silver emoticon!
Goblin Squad Member
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At the moment I think the only modifier heavy armour gives you is your movement speed? If you are wearing heavy armour you are Slow. With a capital S. It's one of the reasons my murder hobo was naked; the only way Decius could catch me and DPS me down was by also getting naked.
And I think they have a basic charge? But I didn't play with it, and my stream chat said it was kinda pants. The lack of CC once you are in the archers face is the primary limit ATM. Once we can exploit Opportunity things will be better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would imagine charge would go a long way toward balancing melee. Also if ranged does need to be nerfed I would start by implementing a mechanic that mimics the dex penalties certain armors give. Especially since the easing of this penalty is one of the main benefits of playing a ranged fighter in the TT.
I remember in the TT my rangers generally competed with the barbarians for who could do the most damage and get the most kills. Ranged damage should be high, it should just come with all the penalties it traditionally does.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the forum, the devs (Tork or ???) have stated that charge is not yet implemented.
Charge is most certainly implemented. I was toying around with it last night. Upon activation, you rush forward 20 meters toward your target unless you get stuck on intervening obstacles such as furniture, stumps, tents, etc.
And to those saying that it's too early to call for tweaks, I ask "Are you not aware that we're in Alpha to provide feedback about the game?" This is our opportunity to do exactly that, provide as much feedback as possible about what we like, what we don't like, what works, what doesn't work, what feels too hot, too cold, or just right.
If your intention is to sit quietly and provide no feedback until you are told to do so, well I think you're just missing out on a fantastic opportunity. To quote from the Kickstarter Alpha pledge, "You will be welcomed as part of a very small group of alpha playtesters in a closed Alpha of Pathfinder Online. This will be a great chance for you to give us direct input on how Pathfinder Online ends up looking and playing in its final incarnation." You can choose to take a "don't ask for tweaks," "don't ask for crowdsource," and "do not design" approach if you like, but I paid my money to have a voice and by God I'm going to use it whether that gets your panties in a twist or not.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I would imagine charge would go a long way toward balancing melee. Also if ranged does need to be nerfed I would start by implementing a mechanic that mimics the dex penalties certain armors give. Especially since the easing of this penalty is one of the main benefits of playing a ranged fighter in the TT.
I remember in the TT my rangers generally competed with the barbarians for who could do the most damage and get the most kills. Ranged damage should be high, it should just come with all the penalties it traditionally does.
You've said that twice
This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class that this type of armor allows. Dexterity bonuses in excess of this number are reduced to this number for the purposes of determining the wearer's Armor Class. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer's ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn't affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.
I'm not going to say that you've been playing wrong, but if you've been penalizing archers for wearing armor that they are proficient in, you have been playing by rules different than the Pathfinder rules.
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Goblin Squad Member
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- Greater restrictions on the effectiveness of kiting
This is what it's really all about. I don't see any need to ask the devs to play with the numbers until we've seen what they do about kiting.
Also, how does bow feel against other players?
Well... There was *ahem* some guy running around in his skivvies shooting folks with his bow while they were trying to train. As a wizard, I certainly never really felt threatened by it; I killed him fairly easily the first time, and was able to run him off every other time. I think the low speed of the attack was plenty balanced against other ranged damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kiting should be very effective, why does every fight have to end with one character killing the other? Taking necessary death out of PvP interactions would add to the "meaningful interaction" stance. I would like to see most PvP interactions involve one person realizing they are outmatched, and running away. A ranged character has (and should only have) two defensive options:
1. Offence (spike them down before they get to you)
2. Kiting (keep them away and whittle them down.
There's a difference between keeping someone away: kiting, and keeping someone locked down: no fun for anyone. The key is making it so that chasing after someone, puts the archer in a vulnerable position.
If you are in anything less than plate armor, you shouldn't even think about engaging with an archer. If you are in plate armor, the archer should have no problem keeping you away and escaping. The only time you should engage an archer (or any ranged toon) one on one is when you catch them flat footed.
Ranged isn't OP, people need to learn to tank-and-flank.
I guess my point is: Keep a distinction between a fight where you have no chance at winning, and a fight you have no chance at escaping. The former isn't a mechanical balance problem, the latter is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the subject of kiting two more questions:
1. Does using a ranged weapon in melee combat provoke an attack of opportunity?
2. How fast is backward movement speed vs. regular movement and does it provoke attacks of opportunity?
If the answer to one is yes, and 2 is either "considerably slower" or "yes it provokes AoO" then ranged should be balanced the way it is in the TT and most any other game.
Powerful damage but if they get up on you then you are in a world of hurt.
Final question, I know fighters are built around AoO but melee rouges still get it right? Because a fast moving melee rogue who can close in most of the way on their target in stealth before being noticed would probably be a serious problem to someone using a bow, while a heavy armor melee fighter will stand a much better chance vs. the rogue but will have a much more even fight with the ranger.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no such thing in PFO as an "attack of opportunity."
Most longbow attacks impose a state on the attacker called "Opportunity."
Some longsword and greatsword attacks have various effects that trigger off the Opportunity state. In other words, if those attacks are used against someone who currently has the Opportunity state active, then the attacks do something extra.
Looking through the database of attacks which has been made available in various locations will give you a sense of the various effects that can be imposed upon someone if they are hit by such an attack while they have the Opportunity state active.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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The Charge that was in the game for the test this week was the old version, on one of the demo characters that we meant to pull for the alpha. I think the updated version of the Charge utility should be in the next build, and available on the trainers. Also in should be Bull Rush, which is a charge with a Knockdown at the end.
There should also be several melee weapon attacks that include a charge as part of the attack. For example, Lunge on longsword, Balestra on short sword, etc.
The normal charge distance is still less than the range on a longbow, so you may not be able to use it if you're getting kited at extreme range.
Right now, you can kite at full speed by just running away from the target. We're looking into keeping you from attacking within a certain arc of your back while moving*, so you have to use the slower backwards walk (or a slightly faster than that strafe+backwards walk) while you're making attacks and trying to move away.
* With auto-rotation to follow target if you're holding still, to keep people from always trying to get into your dead zone.
IT IS NOT FOR US TO DESIGN.
I LIKE TO YELL TOO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kiting at full speed sounds like the crux of the problem as it stands.
What are the design plans for ammo, precisely? Because I have a sinking suspicion that ammo will occupy one (or more) of three unpleasant states:
- an annoying logistical problem that adds little to gameplay
- something that can add a ton of power at high cost (enchanted arrows stacking w/ bows)
- a binary mechanic that makes an archer suddenly useless in after so many shots in an extended encounter
NO I AM NOT AN ALPHA TESTER BUT CANTERLOCK IS FUN.
In the days when bows were considered a useful weapon of war there were different arrow types that were used depending upon the foe.
An example being the bodkin point arrow which was better than the broadhead arrow for penetrating chainmail. It would be nice to see different arrows having different effects so that the archer had to make ammo choices
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Goblin Squad Member
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something that can add a ton of power at high cost (enchanted arrows stacking w/ bows)
I think it's important to note that all non-threaded gear is effectively a consumable. Heck even threaded gear takes durability loss.
Paying to be powerful is something every class will do unless they make monks able to function without gear, which sounds too broken to make it into the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is a _perception_ that bow+arrow = instawin combat. 1 person can take down a camp of 5-6 mobs easily and without fear of death.
The reasons for this perceived imbalance have been stated and re-stated in this thread. GW are looking to fix them.
In PVP, there was a similar perception, but Nihimon has countered that argument somewhat (but he was a wizzy in cloth, point prolly still valid against heavy armour) and fighters are looking to have a number of new ways to counter kiting naked PVPers with the proposed changes that @Stephen has outlined.
I agree with @Lam that we are not the designers, but also with @archanjel that proactive feedback is a responsibility of alpha testers and again with @Decius that the "best" feedback is NOT how to fix things, but what things are broken and the context that they are broken in. Suggestions for options to fix things is also useful, but by clarifying the problem in the context allows designers to actually explore options for the immediate opportunity while still keeping the impact of changes and how they affect the entire system, in balance.
- Jascolich, undead designer and undead thinker
Kiting should be very effective, why does every fight have to end with one character killing the other? Taking necessary death out of PvP interactions would add to the "meaningful interaction" stance. I would like to see most PvP interactions involve one person realizing they are outmatched, and running away. A ranged character has (and should only have) two defensive options:
1. Offence (spike them down before they get to you)
2. Kiting (keep them away and whittle them down.There's a difference between keeping someone away: kiting, and keeping someone locked down: no fun for anyone. The key is making it so that chasing after someone, puts the archer in a vulnerable position.
If you are in anything less than plate armor, you shouldn't even think about engaging with an archer. If you are in plate armor, the archer should have no problem keeping you away and escaping. The only time you should engage an archer (or any ranged toon) one on one is when you catch them flat footed.
Ranged isn't OP, people need to learn to tank-and-flank.
I guess my point is: Keep a distinction between a fight where you have no chance at winning, and a fight you have no chance at escaping. The former isn't a mechanical balance problem, the latter is.
OTOH, if you are in a situation where there is an archer and are fighting melee and try to run, it probably won't happen. Meaning, in the instance of a larger battle. I think there is an issue with balancing 1v1 fights if the game is supposed to be about group fights.
Don't make bows suck! That's all anyone can ask.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm not going to say that you've been playing wrong, but if you've been penalizing archers for wearing armor that they are proficient in, you have been playing by rules different than the Pathfinder rules.
If you are proficient, you don't have the penalty to every rolls, but you still have the Dexterity/Strenght penalty.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_armor-proficiency-light
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not going to say that you've been playing wrong, but if you've been penalizing archers for wearing armor that they are proficient in, you have been playing by rules different than the Pathfinder rules.If you are proficient, you don't have the penalty to every rolls, but you still have the Dexterity/Strenght penalty.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_armor-proficiency-light
That's referencing the Armor Check Penalty, not the Max Dex limiter of the armor. ACP applies only to Skill checks, not to attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armors in TT don't give any Dex penalties. They do each have a maximum Dexterity bonus added to Armor Class (but the Max DEX only affects the bonus you put into Armor Class). They also have an Armor Check Penalty which applies to specific skills (specifically to any skill based on STR or DEX); if you are not proficient with the armor, this ACP also affects attacks, but it is not a penalty to your attributes.
To reiterate, an armor's Max DEX bonus is the maximum DEX it allows added to your Armor Class, but you still use your full DEX for other things, such as ranged attacks. See here, on the SRD for more information.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, how does bow feel against other players?Well... There was *ahem* some guy running around in his skivvies shooting folks with his bow while they were trying to train. As a wizard, I certainly never really felt threatened by it; I killed him fairly easily the first time, and was able to run him off every other time. I think the low speed of the attack was plenty balanced against other ranged damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My only real concern right now is that the alpha strike on bows seems really, really high. Combat time-to-kill is supposed to be in the minutes, isn't it? Is the lack of equipment forcing that all the way down right now?
Because as is, three archers can easily burst down a wizard in one attack round.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kiting should be very effective...
I agree, and I expect it will be. But it shouldn't be an "I win" button; right now, it kinda is, especially with monsters. I shouldn't be able to solo a group of 12 mobs where 5 or 6 of them are archers, but I can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Does using a ranged weapon in melee combat provoke an attack of opportunity?
Most Bow attacks (and Wand/Staff attacks) have a Restriction that reads "Provokes Opportunity". So, in essence, yes.
2. How fast is backward movement speed vs. regular movement and does it provoke attacks of opportunity?
It's reasonably slower, but it's unnecessary. You can run directly away from your target and still shoot them behind you - there's no facing, and likely never will be. I think they're planning on making your character auto-face your target when you attack, though, so that will probably make the whole thing more reasonable. I think of it like they're taking the "twitch" out of being able to run away and then look back and shoot whoever's chasing you; everyone will be able to do it, so having that twitch skill won't be make-or-break.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right now, you can kite at full speed by just running away from the target. We're looking into keeping you from attacking within a certain arc of your back while moving*, so you have to use the slower backwards walk (or a slightly faster than that strafe+backwards walk) while you're making attacks and trying to move away.
* With auto-rotation to follow target if you're holding still, to keep people from always trying to get into your dead zone.
If you simply auto-faced the attacker to the target, would this not alleviate most of the problem?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not quite how it went down, but OK.
Also, how does bow feel against other players?Well... There was *ahem* some guy running around in his skivvies shooting folks with his bow while they were trying to train. As a wizard, I certainly never really felt threatened by it; I killed him fairly easily the first time, and was able to run him off every other time. I think the low speed of the attack was plenty balanced against other ranged damage.
lol, you're right :) I think perhaps I wasn't paying attention to my health as much as I should have been (it comes back quite quickly after combat), so from my somewhat unobservant perspective it looked like you ran away when I started casting at you.
Also, it's nice to finally know how I died that time I was AFK :)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The Charge that was in the game for the test this week was the old version, on one of the demo characters that we meant to pull for the alpha. I think the updated version of the Charge utility should be in the next build, and available on the trainers. Also in should be Bull Rush, which is a charge with a Knockdown at the end.
There should also be several melee weapon attacks that include a charge as part of the attack. For example, Lunge on longsword, Balestra on short sword, etc.
The normal charge distance is still less than the range on a longbow, so you may not be able to use it if you're getting kited at extreme range.
Right now, you can kite at full speed by just running away from the target. We're looking into keeping you from attacking within a certain arc of your back while moving*, so you have to use the slower backwards walk (or a slightly faster than that strafe+backwards walk) while you're making attacks and trying to move away.
* With auto-rotation to follow target if you're holding still, to keep people from always trying to get into your dead zone.
What about a weaker version of "immobile" that prohibits running?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Many of you talk about breaking immersion.
I can't think of a better to break immersion(as far as combat is concerned) than NOT having Line of sight mechanics. I can understand the goals of not having it in melee range, so that the game doesn't devolve into circle strafing combat, but ranged combat should make you at least point in a 180 arc towards someone.
Kiting is a skill that can be learned and trained by the player(not the character).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe my preference would be if line of sight was automatically acquired upon triggering an attack - meaning the character turns mid-run, moving backwards for a few steps (with the associated slowing), and fires - preferably with a penalty (a miss chance increase, likely) that can be reduced by increasing your archery skills. Firing while standing still should have no such penalties (and perhaps bonuses to be gained with skills) but should still have the auto-turn mechanic for players who really cannot spend all their energy turning in circles trying to make sure the enemy is in 'line of sight'.
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Yeah, you have a penalty for everything except for your attack, that's what I'm saying.
Well, not saving throws, and there's no actual 'penalty' to your AC, but who's counting?
*Is counting*
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe ammo consumption will prove to be an effective counter balance as players will always be willing to spend gold for a marked advantage on the field. If I'm going out to PvP, I'll spend however much gold I need to load my inventory full of arrows knowing that arrows allow me to kill faster, more often, and more safely than any melee weapon in which I could invest said gold.IRL, you can't transport more than what ? 30 arrows ? I think that the point of ammos isn't the price, but your capacity to transport it. EvE being a big inspiration for this game, I would be very surprised, to be able to transport 2000 arrows.
There's a couple of possible parts to ammo consumption which might make it more relevant, depending on how GW sets things up.
- Arrows might be considered somewhat bulky and unwieldly (they are almost 3' long and somewhat fragile) so each quiverful might have some non-trivial encumbrance. Every spare quiver of arrows that your character is carrying is that much loot or cargo he can't carry.
- Arrows aren't threaded. When you die, they become loot for whoever killed you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. How fast is backward movement speed vs. regular movement and does it provoke attacks of opportunity?It's reasonably slower, but it's unnecessary. You can run directly away from your target and still shoot them behind you - there's no facing, and likely never will be. I think they're planning on making your character auto-face your target when you attack, though, so that will probably make the whole thing more reasonable. I think of it like they're taking the "twitch" out of being able to run away and then look back and shoot whoever's chasing you; everyone will be able to do it, so having that twitch skill won't be make-or-break.
Just thinking about this logically, doesn't that mean you can run full speed shooting backwards and even charge away from your opponent, and if there is an auto-face when you shoot you can still turn and run after shooting.
In-fact, because if faces you right at your target you could set up a macro that will turn you 180 degrees as quickly as possible so you can keep running after your shot?
If they want to balance it they should probably make shooting an action timer that takes up the whole time between your last shot and your next shot.
That's going to be kind of awkward for movement if they force you face your target directly that whole time though.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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2. How fast is backward movement speed vs. regular movement and does it provoke attacks of opportunity?It's reasonably slower, but it's unnecessary. You can run directly away from your target and still shoot them behind you - there's no facing, and likely never will be. I think they're planning on making your character auto-face your target when you attack, though, so that will probably make the whole thing more reasonable. I think of it like they're taking the "twitch" out of being able to run away and then look back and shoot whoever's chasing you; everyone will be able to do it, so having that twitch skill won't be make-or-break.
Just thinking about this logically, doesn't that mean you can run full speed shooting backwards and even charge away from your opponent, and if there is an auto-face when you shoot you can still turn and run after shooting.
In-fact, because if faces you right at your target you could set up a macro that will turn you 180 degrees as quickly as possible so you can keep running after your shot?
If they want to balance it they should probably make shooting an action timer that takes up the whole time between your last shot and your next shot.
That's going to be kind of awkward for movement if they force you face your target directly that whole time though.
As of Saturday, you could indeed sprint away while firing arrows backwards at the target. Your concerns about rapidly changing facing do suggest that simply facing the target is insufficient to resolve the balance issue (since it makes the issue one of dexterity, and macros make dexterity irrelevant).
If all bow attacks require stopping or slowing, then bows become much less useful in pursuit.
That kind of makes sense, though. Ever tried running and glancing back every now and then to fire a shot? I haven't, but it sounds like a pain in the knee neck.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Why should they even allow you to attack with a bow while running away at all.
Because the process is facing-agnostic and allows most bow attacks while running.
Changing the first requirement won't work and will be costly to implement, and changing the second will make bows less useful in pursuit.
Goblinworks Founder
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At the moment I think the only modifier heavy armour gives you is your movement speed? If you are wearing heavy armour you are Slow. With a capital S. It's one of the reasons my murder hobo was naked; the only way Decius could catch me and DPS me down was by also getting naked.
I'm visualising the "greased up deaf guy" from family guy screaming "You'll neber catch be!" as you run around plucking arrows at people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In-fact, because if faces you right at your target you could set up a macro that will turn you 180 degrees as quickly as possible so you can keep running after your shot?
I think if they made an about-face necessary to fire, they could rig the animation to turn around independent of your camera, and while you are 'backwards' on your own screen you suffer back-pedaling movement penalties. This way continuing to hold the forward move button down keeps you moving through your backward steps and then you immediately turn around after the attack animation finishes moving 'normally' in whatever direction you have chosen to face the camera.
This doesn't require any special learning from the players, reduces kiting ability while using ranged attacks (as you both won't see what your character is firing at and you will suffer a move-speed penalty for the duration of the attack animation) and a macro will not give any special advantage to those who use one because the desired effect is essentially built-in for everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know. Making a facing agnostic system seems like it is more trouble than it's worth.
The simplest method would be you can't fire unless the target is within X degrees in-front of you, and make firing a bow an action that is interrupted if your target goes outside that range, so that in order to keep a constant barrage of arrows going, you must constantly be facing your target, or you can mix running and shooting at the expense of how many arrows you're going to get off.
If people are super terrified this is going to end up with people running circles around them, then just make it so you can tell the game to auto-face you at your target.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But an auto-facing mechanic would mean that in order to effectively kite at all you must rapidly disengage the lock so you can turn around, run, stop/reengage the lock, fire, repeat. This quickly becomes a matter of the most dexterous player - rather than the best skilled character - wins. Since I believe most of the community wants to avoid that, it makes sense to consider options that reduce the advantages gained through 'twitchy' gameplay. (Even though some may seem counter-intuitive.)
Personally, I think it would also look badass to have my character turn around shooting at things I can no longer see. So that's something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But an auto-facing mechanic would mean that in order to effectively kite at all you must rapidly disengage the lock so you can turn around, run, stop/reengage the lock, fire, repeat. This quickly becomes a matter of the most dexterous player - rather than the best skilled character - wins. Since I believe most of the community wants to avoid that, it makes sense to consider options that reduce the advantages gained through 'twitchy' gameplay. (Even though some may seem counter-intuitive.)
Personally, I think it would also look badass to have my character turn around shooting at things I can no longer see. So that's something.
I don't see the problem with kiting not being a viable mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with what I was saying isn't that it makes kiting non-viable. I'd be fine with being required to stand still while firing arrows - with maybe the ability to move at half-speed while firing if you've unlocked a shot-on-the-run type of feat.
The problem is that it makes it non-viable for a specific group of players: those without the manual dexterity and/or energy to perform the changes as efficiently as others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But an auto-facing mechanic would mean that in order to effectively kite at all you must rapidly disengage the lock so you can turn around, run, stop/reengage the lock, fire, repeat.
Right, which is an issue right up until you read what I said.
The simplest method would be you can't fire unless the target is within X degrees in-front of you, and make firing a bow an action that is interrupted if your target goes outside that range, so that in order to keep a constant barrage of arrows going, you must constantly be facing your target...
In other words there is an action your character is doing called firing a bow. At the end of that action you loose an arrow at your target, then you may immediately begin that action again. If you are not facing your target at any point during that action it interrupts it.
So turning around to run interrupts your firing action.