Advice for a healer


Advice

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DrDeth wrote:
Treatmonk, I still say the Life Oracle is better.

I disagree, and I'll try one more time to convince you. If not, no problem.

DrDeth wrote:
Channel gives you 4+ Channels a day, which is that many spells about = to your highest or next highest level.

I can use the healing skill an infinite number of times per day, but I'm still not taking it with a character that can already do the job. Taking Channel Energy isn't free, if you take it, you rob yourself of an ability that doesn't duplicate your existing toolbox.

DrDeth wrote:
And, as you said, you can channel while grappled, and it doesn't provoke, which can be huge, as the healing can save YOU.

I don't think I said that. Nevertheless, it's not really a unique feature of channel energy. A wand or staff does the same thing.

However, once you have a few levels under your belt, you won't even need to roll to cast from grappled or cast on defensive as the concentration difficulties do not scale with level.

For the record, if I'm heavily injured, and my life is in danger, I'll want something that heals a significant amount (actually, good chance I'll want to cast something that gets me the heck out of danger). At pretty much any level, channel energy is sub-par for healing a single target as it just doesn't heal very much.

DrDeth wrote:
They both get Combat Healer (Su)

yep

DrDeth wrote:
but Enhanced Cures (Su), Life Link (Su) and Spirit Boost (Su) are all good. Later take Lifesense (Su) which is a great detection ability.

Ummmmm...got to just about universally disagree.

Enhanced Cures is awful. You get an enhancement on a spell that your level has made obsolete that doesn't make it relevant again.

Life Link is one of the worst revelations in the game. You give an ally fast healing 5, which by itself would be meh, but they make it even less appealing by applying any damage healed to you. Yuck. Oh, and once again, it's more of just duplicating what you can already do. P.S. Shield Other is far more effective, gives additional bonuses, is only a 2nd level spell (that is on your spell list) and isn't even considered a great spell. That's how bad this ability is.

Spirit Boost isn't awful, but not noteworthy. Very short duration temporary HP are OK I guess.

Lifesense is decent. I like blindsight

DrDeth wrote:
And, if you are the main healer, you will want those spells on the Life oracles list, at least the restorations and Breath of Life.

That's another thing. I would strongly recommend a mystery where the bonus spell list isn't pulled straight off the existing oracle spell list.

Every Oracle can have any of those spells (and they should all take Restoration - L.R. probably is fine in a wand (having both on your spell list is a bit redundant, that's an ongoing theme here of course), Breath of life is pretty circumstantial for a spontaneous casting list IMO)

Spells like enlarge person, barkskin, fear or heroism, these are great spells, but only available to the Oracle that selects a Mystery with the spell desired on the bonus spell list.

Personally, the Ancestor bonus spell list I find particularly desirable, I just think the revelations aren't quite as good as the battle oracle (though better than Life mystery)

I'll leave with this final thought experiment - If this doesn't convince you, then we may have to agree to disagree:

Pretend you are playing a Sorcerer. You have 2 first level spells that you can use 4 times per day. Those spells are Mage Armor and another first level spell (we'll say silent image).

Your GM is going to start your character with a wand with the first level spell of your choice.

Are you going to select a wand of Mage Armor? If you think you would rather have a different spell - look at any of your arguments why "Channel Energy" is a good option for a caster who can already heal, and you'll find most apply (save castings for other spells, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, can be used in a grapple to save YOU, etc)

The reason you would want a spell on that wand that is neither Mage armor nor Grease is the same reason you don't want to take a revelation that provides an ability that performs the same function as abilities you already possess.


DrDeth wrote:
Treatmonk, I still say the Life Oracle is better.

I disagree, and I'll try one more time to convince you. If not, no problem.

DrDeth wrote:
Channel gives you 4+ Channels a day, which is that many spells about = to your highest or next highest level.

I can use the healing skill an infinite number of times per day, but I'm still not taking it with a character that can already do the job. Taking Channel Energy isn't free, if you take it, you rob yourself of an ability that doesn't duplicate your existing toolbox.

DrDeth wrote:
And, as you said, you can channel while grappled, and it doesn't provoke, which can be huge, as the healing can save YOU.

I don't think I said that. Nevertheless, it's not really a unique feature of channel energy. A wand or staff does the same thing.

However, once you have a few levels under your belt, you won't even need to roll to cast from grappled or cast on defensive as the concentration difficulties do not scale with level.

For the record, if I'm heavily injured, and my life is in danger, I'll want something that heals a significant amount (actually, good chance I'll want to cast something that gets me the heck out of danger). At pretty much any level, channel energy is sub-par for healing a single target as it just doesn't heal very much.

DrDeth wrote:
They both get Combat Healer (Su)

yep

DrDeth wrote:
but Enhanced Cures (Su), Life Link (Su) and Spirit Boost (Su) are all good. Later take Lifesense (Su) which is a great detection ability.

Ummmmm...got to just about universally disagree.

Enhanced Cures is awful. You get an enhancement on a spell that your level has made obsolete that doesn't make it relevant again.

Life Link is one of the worst revelations in the game. You give an ally fast healing 5, which by itself would be meh, but they make it even less appealing by applying any damage healed to you. Yuck. Oh, and once again, it's more of just duplicating what you can already do. P.S. Shield Other is far more effective, gives additional bonuses, is only a 2nd level spell (that is on your spell list) and isn't even considered a great spell. That's how bad this ability is.

Spirit Boost isn't awful, but not noteworthy. Very short duration temporary HP are OK I guess.

Lifesense is decent. I like blindsight

DrDeth wrote:
And, if you are the main healer, you will want those spells on the Life oracles list, at least the restorations and Breath of Life.

That's another thing. I would strongly recommend a mystery where the bonus spell list isn't pulled straight off the existing oracle spell list.

Every Oracle can have any of those spells (and they should all take Restoration - L.R. probably is fine in a wand (having both on your spell list is a bit redundant, that's an ongoing theme here of course), Breath of life is pretty circumstantial for a spontaneous casting list IMO)

Spells like enlarge person, barkskin, fear or heroism, these are great spells, but only available to the Oracle that selects a Mystery with the spell desired on the bonus spell list.

Personally, the Ancestor bonus spell list I find particularly desirable, I just think the revelations aren't quite as good as the battle oracle (though better than Life mystery)

I'll leave with this final thought experiment - If this doesn't convince you, then we may have to agree to disagree:

Pretend you are playing a Sorcerer. You have 2 first level spells that you can use 4 times per day. Those spells are Mage Armor and another first level spell (we'll say silent image).

Your GM is going to start your character with a wand with the first level spell of your choice.

Are you going to select a wand of Mage Armor? If you think you would rather have a different spell - look at any of your arguments why "Channel Energy" is a good option for a caster who can already heal, and you'll find most apply (save castings for other spells, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, can be used in a grapple to save YOU, etc)

The reason you would want a spell on that wand that is neither Mage armor nor Grease is the same reason you don't want to take a revelation that provides an ability that performs the same function as abilities you already possess.

My rant is over. Feels good to rant again!


P.S. Sorry for double post - meant to edit, ended up reposting.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

My 15 pt human sword & board paladin 5 has 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 16; Maxed Diplomacy, Fey Foundling, Power Attack, Extra Lay on Hands, and Mystical Healing. I'm planning on maxing out Heal and Knowledge religion to get (Ex) or (-) healing with Heal skill + Mystical Healing (+1d6 at my level) and to eventually get Quick Channel. I've already dabbled in a bunch of skills, so it may take a while to get good at Heal and Knowledge religion.

I plan on Selective Channel at 7th and Quick Channel at 9th.

But back on track, Life Oracle has some useful class skills (Survival), and the ability to select non-healing spells means you can be a versatile caster. I'm a huge fan of murderous command, since it steals the action economy of one opponent and (hopefully) reduces the hit points of another opponent.


blah blah healing not healing. The most important thing in this post is "The Treantmonk" sighting!!!!

Good to see a Legend posting!

Thank you for the guides that set the standard and format of all to follow!


The aspect I like of channel is that it gets better the more allies you have - mounts, summoned monsters/animals, henchmen, animal companions. In a party with a Summoner, channeling with Selective feat is great, especially if you take the elf favored class bonus to bump it up (or have an item).

If you do go paladin/Oracle, you get heavy armor proficiency back, so could take the lame curse and not miss the move too much, as well as use a mount. Personally I like haunted, also because of the bonus spells it gives you.


@DrDeth - Our access to Heal is via an Inquisitor, so we don’t have much of that resource to spare. We can’t count on Miracles, and we can only Wish for a Wish since the arcane caster knows Waves of Exhaustion instead. WoE has been absolutely devastating against a wide variety of foes, so I wouldn’t say I regret her choice.

@Treantmonk - I’m not saying Life Oracle is a “better” PC overall, just that it could be effective and should be a great healer (if for some reason a player wants to be great at healing). Quick Channel+Channel is a pretty big HP boost, especially with a Phylactery of Positive Channeling. Quick Channel+Anything Else could be a nice move too. These could help address AoE damage affecting multiple party members and aren’t options the Battle Oracle has. Saving your spell slots for Summon Monster or other offensive spells seems fun too. Battle Oracle might be more effective at battling, but you can tell that just from the name!

@Kwauss - That's what I was talking about with using Channel to heal summoned monsters. It isn't that you're healing them specifically, just that you can raise the HP total of your allies in general, the more the merrier (kind of like a Bard who buffs HP)


Devilkiller wrote:


@Treantmonk - I’m not saying Life Oracle is a “better” PC overall, just that it could be effective and should be a great healer (if for some reason a player wants to be great at healing).

I won't argue with that. Of course, any Oracle mystery could be used to make an effective character, I would just personally rank the "Life" mystery near the bottom (with "bones").

The better Mysteries overall I would say are Battle, Ancestor, Nature and Dark Tapestry (if UM is used).

Any Oracle should be pretty great at healing, but yes, the life Oracle is the best healer of the mysteries.

Devilkiller wrote:
@DrDeth - Our access to Heal is via an Inquisitor, so we don’t have much of that resource to spare. We can’t count on Miracles, and we can only Wish for a Wish since the arcane caster knows Waves of Exhaustion instead. WoE has been absolutely devastating against a wide variety of foes, so I wouldn’t say I regret her choice.

Not directed at me, but I would recommend in any party where a Bard, or a caster with "bard spell progression" becomes the party healer, the players should agree to devote a % of all party funds to healing consumables (wands and scrolls - not potions preferably). 10% is a reasonable amount. An inquisitor can be as good a healer as a cleric if he always has the right wand/scroll handy.


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qutoes wrote:

blah blah healing not healing. The most important thing in this post is "The Treantmonk" sighting!!!!

Good to see a Legend posting!

Thank you for the guides that set the standard and format of all to follow!

You make me blush. Thanks.


Coriat wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:
Rory wrote:
For posterity, that swift action healing revelation requires 7th level, a revelation pick, burns two spell slots and still can only be used once per day at 7th level. It's okay for an emergency heal, but do note the extravagant cost. You'd get far more bang for the buck with the Extra Channel feat. Channels heal at range, while threatened and/or grappled as well, so have different, but as much emergency healing utility (while retaining immensely more out of combat healing).
You can cast when grappled too.

Past low levels this gets really difficult. Unlike most concentration checks, the DC of a grapple casting check will tend to scale faster than your bonus, since CMB of foes scales somewhat faster in itself, and then you are adding the spell level.

There are some particularly severe jumps in the mid level range. By CR 10 for example you can be facing stuff like the anaconda for DC 40+spell level concentration checks.

Right. Unless you have burned several feats (or taking a mythic ability), later in the game, when a caster gets grappled by a huge monster, his chance of casting is tiny. But he can Channel all he wants.


@Treantmonk - I've been a longtime proponent of the "Wand Tax" in our groups. My PC in that game (which has just finished) was a Paladin4/Bard13 with Craft Wand and UMD +32. He had lots of wands and a fair number of scrolls. When I asked what we needed for the dungeon nobody thought of Remove Blindness though.

Scarab Sages

I know that the Advanced Class Guide is coming out soon, but with the playtest, you can sort of do something with it:

Shaman (Battle) 1/Cleric (Healing Domain) X

Here is the Battle Shaman's Spirit Ability:

Healing Spirit (Su) wrote:
When the shaman casts a conjuration (healing) spell, she’s treated as 2 caster levels higher. In addition, she can maximize the effects of a conjuration (healing) spell as if she applied the Maximize Spell metamagic feat, as long as that spell is cast on a creature other than herself. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.

This means that you can Maximize any Cure Spell, Breath of Life, and the like to any ally without it taking any action other than healing. Add this to the Healer's Blessing that you get at 6th level of Cleric, and you got 3+CHA/day - Empowered/Maximized Cure Spells.

So the level 10 healer will use a Breath of Life on someone for 40+11=55*1.5= 82 Hit points of Healing.

Or if you have a Lesser Quickened Metamagic Rod, and casted 2 Cure Serious Wounds, it would be 24+11=35*1.5=52*2=104 Hit Points of Healing. Then you can Channel afterwards if you have Quick Channel. An emergency "uh-oh" button with solid healing for one or two allies.


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Fun Healing Math:

Assume: Channel at 1st, Energy Body at 3rd, Life Link at 7th and having a career 18 CHA. For simplicity, assume single target channel healing and dual target with Life Link.

Spell Healing (spells by level):

1st: 5.5 (hitpoints per) CLW
3rd: 7.5 CLW
5th: 9.5 CLW, 14 CMW
7th: 9.5 CLW, 16 CMW, 20 CSW
9th: 9.5 CLW, 18 CMW, 22 SCW, 27 CCW
etc.

Non-Spell healing:

1st: 17 (from 5xChannel)
3rd: 35 (5xChannel) + 19 Energy Body (3x rounds)
5th: 52 (5xChannel) + 42 Energy Body (5x rounds)
7th: 140 (5xChannel) + 73 Energy Body (7x rounds)
9th: 175 (5xChannel) + 112 Energy Body (9x rounds)
etc.

Effective Extra "Healing Only" Spell Slots (by level):

1st: +3 1st level spell slots
3rd: +7 1st level spell slots
5th: +6 2nd level spell slots
7th: +10 3rd level spell slots
9th: +10 4th level spell slots

That's a lot of extra pseudo spell slots to buffer the oracle against using real spells slots for healing. That's a lot of freedom gained to use spells for whatever they want and still heal the party.


I think the more interesting "healing math" might be average healing vs "expected" damage. The easiest comparisons would probably involve common melee monsters at a given level attacking various "tank" PCs (high AC Fighter, DR Barbarian, Mirror Image Magus).

Channels vs AoE damage might be relatively easy to estimate too. If I end up with some spare time and the right mood perhaps I'll do some analysis.

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