Lemmy |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hello again, fellow gamers! How are you today?
Well, some of you might already be familiar with this particular creation of mine, but it's been a while since I made an actual thread for it, and the homebrew itself was at its early stages then.
Lemmy's Revised Rogue for Pathfinder. (Also here if you would like to know more about the thought process behind each change, want to find out what was added at each update or simply can't open googledocs for some reason).
I'm still constantly tinkering with and updating this homebrew. Usually when someone gives me a really good idea or when I think of a cool new Rogue Talent (latest one is the revised version of Defensive Roll).
Special thanks go (in alphabetical order) to Ashiel, Byrdology, Rynjin, Scavion, StreamOfTheSkies and all other posters who provided me with invaluable insight.
The design goals for this homebrew are the following:
- Feel Like a Rogue. I do not want a Trapper Ranger with a different list of class skills, so no full BAB and no good Fort save.
- Functionality. That means Rogues have the means to overcome their weaknesses.
- Build Variety. Not all Rogues want Weapon Finesse or TWF.
- Remove feat/talent taxes. Self-explanatory.
- Keep The Names. The names of class abilities (especially Rogue Talents) must stay as close as possible to the original. This allows players to use character-creation software, such as HeroLab.
So, if you have the time, check it out and share your thoughts! All suggestions and constructive criticism are welcome.
Lemmy |
Lemmy, didn't you do a fighter re-write as well?
Yeah, but I went overboard with it and made the homebrew too front-loaded. I'm currently rewriting it, gonna post it here when it's finished. It'll end up with fewer numerical bonuses, but more versatility and in-combat adaptability than the current version.
Lemmy |
Fewer bonuses. :)
I'll look forward to reading it, as I have both of your versions from last year printed out in my Pathfinder folder.
Urgh... Can't believe I made that mistake (I changed my mind about what I to type mid-sentence). -.-'
Thanks for pointing it out... Otherwise I'd certainly have noticed when the post became exactly 1h old and the typo would haunt my dreams! (No sarcasm, my typos really do bother me!)
rainzax |
ok
if all feedback is good, even negative feedback, if you dont appreciate it you can just ignore me (we will probably never meet anyhow)...
in general, i agree with all of your design philosophy, with the exception of one oversight: some of your upgraded talents share none of the original intent of the (weaker) older talents whose name they now fly under. i think this is a mistake.
on to your talents:
- Acrobatic Master: i mostly like what you've done here, because this is basically still a bonus to tumbling. but the Escape Artist swap feels tacked on. consider this instead? "if the rogue fails her acrobatics check, and her foe's attack of opportunity misses, she may continue her movement through threatened squares." cool, no?
- Assault Leader: i like the original idea. it's the 1/day that sucks. can we just change this to 1/enemy/day?
- Black Market Connections: hell yeah!
- Befuddling Strike: i like both the original and your version, but think the original could be expanded. maybe the rogue can opt to give the penalty to her choice between either all attacks made against her or all attack not made against her? as for your version, i think you should just come up with a new name (Feinting Critical?) and keep both.
- Canny Observer: i feel like the ID function should fall under Esoteric Scholar. then again, your original take on noticing weaknesses via observation (as opposed to study) is intriguing... it'd be too cool to just let the rogue sub in Perception for all 10 Knowledge skills (take THAT bard!) - maybe we could with a maximum 'glean' of a single item of information per creature? or, the rogue must study the creature a full round (and within 30 feet - remember Perception penalties for distance!) to get more info? there is some more potential here...
- Charmer (Sp): why rogue 10? wizard can do this level 1. and in a single round.
- Coax Information: what does an 'intimidating critical' have to do with coaxing information? the original talent sucks, true, but can you explain your reasoning here?
- Defensive Roll: i think you have gone too far in allowing this at will. even within the action economy. consider reinstating a pre-condition?
- Deft Palm: nice. except that i would use 'feint AC' (that is, 10 + either SM or BAB+WIS) for synchronicity. also, consider allowing even further strategic options: each die forfeited adds +1 to strike?
- Distracting Attack: ok, looks like you rolled the old Befuddling Strike into this talent. nice. if you take my advice above (viz 'Feinting Critical'), the penalty to concentrate/skill/attack can be the new Befuddling Strike (keeping the original intent and expanding upon it), and the original Distracting Attack (which sets up your ally) can be retained. i like the original, but also think it could be improved. such as granting the ally some or all of your sneak attack dice...
- Esoteric Scholar: go all Knowledge skills! otherwise i like. or, new idea(!), allow Knowledge History to function as Identify + Spellcraft but in an extraordinary fashion?
- False Friend: i would limit this to 1/foe/day. only a great fool would fall for this twice. otherwise super cool!
- Fast Picks: nice.
- Finesse Rogue: nice. or. allow DEX to damage?...
- Force of Personality: ok nice.
- Getaway Artist: neat! i say drop it to basic though. if you make lots of cool basic talents, which you are, by dint of there being so many good options serves to balance the opportunity cost of choosing one over another. this is not game-breaking, as it is a corner-caser.
- Hard to Fool: still underpowered.
- Hold Breath: interactivity with inhaled poisons?
- Honeyed Words: nice
- Iron Guts: you forgot nauseated.
- Ledge Walker: nice. i might steal.
- Minor Magic and Major Magic: more is better. why did you change DC to CHA? further, since you did, why do you still keep INT at all?
- Nimble Climber: might steal. (except i like the name Wall Scramble - more evocative).
- Opportunist: interplay with Slow Reactions unclear.
- Peerless Maneuver: what happened to acrobatics? actually, this is a better suited title. so nevermind.
- Powerful Sneak: i like mine better (bypass DR equal to sneak attack dice)...
- Rogue Crawl: again might steal.
- Resiliency: i do not like the direction you took this.
- Shadow Blend: neato!
- Slippery Mind: nice. does this stack with Hard to Fool?
- Sniper's Eye: by 60 feet or to 60 feet? i prefer the latter. very cool.
- Skill Mastery: no comment.
- Strong Impression: the original totally sucks. just take the feat stupid! but a bonus/re-roll to initiative? i kind of see your train of logic ("the first impression you will get of me will be my dagger in your side!"), but it still seems a little off. brainstorm here.
- Strong Stroke: stealing.
- Surprise Attack: yes!
- Survivalist: still underpowered...
- Swift Poisoning: yes.
- Underhanded: i like the original. except any number of times per day.
hope that helps! consider looking at mine? cheers!
Lemmy |
Wow... Only now I realized that having lots of Rogue Talents comes with the downside of having to reply to really long posts. :P
- Acrobatic Master: i mostly like what you've done here, because this is basically still a bonus to tumbling. but the Escape Artist swap feels tacked on. consider this instead? "if the rogue fails her acrobatics check, and her foe's attack of opportunity misses, she may continue her movement through threatened squares." cool, no?
Yeah, but I like to keep it simple. Allowing it to replace Escape Artist gives Rogues an slight advantage in skills
- Assault Leader: i like the original idea. it's the 1/day that sucks. can we just change this to 1/enemy/day?
This is one of the ways Rogues get a much needed boost to accuracy. Flanking is one of their main tactics, so they should be really good at it!
- Canny Observer: i feel like the ID function should fall under Esoteric Scholar. then again, your original take on noticing weaknesses via observation (as opposed to study) is intriguing... it'd be too cool to just let the rogue sub in Perception for all 10 Knowledge skills (take THAT bard!) - maybe we could with a maximum 'glean' of a single item of information per creature? or, the rogue must study the creature a full round (and within 30 feet - remember Perception penalties for distance!) to get more info? there is some more potential here...
Again, gotta keep things simple when possible.
- Charmer (Sp): why rogue 10? wizard can do this level 1. and in a single round.
Not at will, he can't.
- Coax Information: what does an 'intimidating critical' have to do with coaxing information? the original talent sucks, true, but can you explain your reasoning here?
They are two separate abilities granted by the same talent. Basically, the Rogue becomes really good at intimidating people, and learns how to better use intimidation tactics in combat.
- Defensive Roll: i think you have gone too far in allowing this at will. even within the action economy. consider reinstating a pre-condition?
This is just a re-skinned Snake Style. It costs a swift action, so it only works once per round.
- Deft Palm: nice. except that i would use 'feint AC' (that is, 10 + either SM or BAB+WIS) for synchronicity. also, consider allowing even further strategic options: each die forfeited adds +1 to strike?
Having only 2 alternatives keeps it simple while giving the Rogue a real decision to make (extra damage or extra accuracy).
- Esoteric Scholar: go all Knowledge skills! otherwise i like. or, new idea(!), allow Knowledge History to function as Identify + Spellcraft but in an extraordinary fashion?
Hmm... Making it all Knowledge skills might be a good idea. I will take it on consideration.
- False Friend: i would limit this to 1/foe/day. only a great fool would fall for this twice. otherwise super cool!
It also has to do with positioning and feinting. If the enemy is clever enough to not fall for it again, then he'll make that Sense Motive check.
- Finesse Rogue: nice. or. allow DEX to damage?...
I feel that getting Dex to damage should cost more than a single feat (or Rogue Talent).
- Getaway Artist: neat! i say drop it to basic though. if you make lots of cool basic talents, which you are, by dint of there being so many good options serves to balance the opportunity cost of choosing one over another. this is not game-breaking, as it is a corner-caser.
It's an advanced talent to avoid dipping. The conditions it protects Rogue against ain't that rare.
- Hard to Fool: still underpowered.
True, but at least it's useful. Probably gonna improve it later.
- Hold Breath: interactivity with inhaled poisons?
Yes... I think.
- Iron Guts: you forgot nauseated.
Yes, I did.
- Ledge Walker: nice. i might steal.
Can't steal what is being shared for free. ;)
- Minor Magic and Major Magic: more is better. why did you change DC to CHA? further, since you did, why do you still keep INT at all?
Ugh... Another poster mentioned that it made more sense for it to be Cha-based since it's an SLA, and I agree... You know what, I'll just let the Rogue choose whichever attribute he wants to base this ability on!
- Opportunist: interplay with Slow Reactions unclear.
Slow Reactions depends on Sneak Attack, if you can apply Sneak Attack damage in an AoO it works normally, it doesn't matter what caused the AoO.
- Powerful Sneak: i like mine better (bypass DR equal to sneak attack dice)...
That's a pretty cool idea, actually. But considering Sneak attack is no longer considered a rider effect, chances are that DR is not much a problem anyway.
- Resiliency: i do not like the direction you took this.
Any particular reason why?
- Slippery Mind: nice. does this stack with Hard to Fool?
Yes. Hard to Fool (and all other save-boosting talents) affect all saving throws, not just Will in particular.
- Sniper's Eye: by 60 feet or to 60 feet? i prefer the latter. very cool.
By 60ft. This way the Rogue can also enjoy other similar abilities if he has them.
- Strong Impression: the original totally sucks. just take the feat stupid! but a bonus/re-roll to initiative? i kind of see your train of logic ("the first impression you will get of me will be my dagger in your side!"), but it still seems a little off. brainstorm here.
There are similar abilities to these. The rerolls come online quite late and they are not game-breaking.
- Survivalist: still underpowered...
True.
- Underhanded: i like the original. except any number of times per day.
The original is mostly covered by Surprise Attacks, and Rogues need a way to make finesse builds more viable (And DDex to Damage might be a little too much for a single talent).
hope that helps! consider looking at mine? cheers!
I'll take a look and post what I think about them. This way you too will have to post a long reply! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Tholomyes |
I had a few other things I was going to mention, but it looks like you updated the doc to fix them before I finished typing this up, but there's just one thing I have a thought on changing:
Peerless Maneuver: being only able to choose one maneuver seems a bit too limiting. While being able to take it multiple times for multiple maneuvers may seem somewhat OP (since it's getting you 2 Feats and a CMB bonus), the fact of the matter is that you're facing an opportunity cost, since you can't use two combat maneuvers at once, it just opens up more options, rather than increasing power all that much.
Lemmy |
I dunno... 2 feats + attack bonus for a single Rogue Talent seems like a good deal to me. If it could be taken multiple times, Rogues would suddenly become better at maneuvers than most combat classes.
It's like the Maneuver Mastery revelation for Oracles of Battle.
If anything, I might change it so that Peerless Maneuver can be taken once every X Rogue levels, but honestly, I'm not inclined to do it.
Lou Diamond |
Lemmy, you still did not addresses the major problem with the Rogue the inability to get sneak attacks on a consistent basis. I think that Rogues need a movement based ability like Skirmisher to give the Rogues a greater percentage of sneak attacks per round.
I like the other Talents that you have done for Rogues. I think that an ability to add sneak attack damage to crits. an another talent to add to crit conformation.
Lemmy |
I don't think not being able to use Sneak attack is their main problem with Rogues. Instead, I believe their main problem is the fact that Sneak Attack is their only offensive tool, meaning Rogues have very little to do in combat when they can't use Sneak Attack.
This homebrew helps with that in two ways:
1- By giving Rogues abilities that do not depend on Sneak Attack, such as Black Market Connections, Beffudling Strikes, Defensive Roll, Opportunist, Peerless Maneuver and Underhanded.
2- By giving Rogues the tools they need to overcome their most serious limitations in combat: Low accuracy and awful saves. This allows Rogues to invest resources in other areas without being crippled by their innate weaknesses.
I'm thinking about adding talents that allow Rogues to have a little more versatility in combat, making their tactics more varied and interesting.
Purple Dragon Knight |
Lemmy, you still did not addresses the major problem with the Rogue the inability to get sneak attacks on a consistent basis.
How's this one for you (rogue talent):
Selective Proprioception (Ex): By tricking her own sense of hand-eye coordination, a rogue with this ability can attack directly while invisible and not become visible.
Purple Dragon Knight |
that would make rogues something to fear, and probably push most spellcasters to memorize invisibility purge or see invisibility... in summary, I'm all for it! :)
Note that this is a rogue talent, only for rogues, and not for ninja. And remember that you need a way to make yourself invisible, via friendly spellcaster, potion, or want (ring of invisibility, an iconic magic item from the early days of D&D, would finally become useful to a rogue with that rogue talent). I hate the fact that every rogue is dependent on other players to get that Greater Invisibility! it shouldn't be like this! rogues should have an advantage over all other classes while invisible. They have finesse, stealth, and play dirty.
As for being invisible a low levels: ninjas have that ability and it hasn't destroyed the game... in fact, I don't see a lot of ninjas being played despite that ability. I don't mind if rogues, via magic items or potions, are better invisible foes than their ninja counterparts. I don't mind at all.
Oh and Lemmy: I love your rogue! great work! you make a few key rogue features standard for the class, above and beyond the rogue talent allotment, which is great (it should have been made this way from the get go by Paizo...)
Lemmy |
There is a big difference between low level Invisibility and low level Greater Invisibility. The 1st one is useful, but limited in combat. The second one is likely to break any low-level encounter.
Giving it to a 2nd level character is going to make it way too powerful in combat.
Ninja's Vanishing Trick isn't overpowered because it's broken when the ninja attacks. It simulates Vanish, not a 4th level spell. I have nothing against allowing Rogues to benefit more from invisibility spells, but essentially giving them Greater Invisibility at 2nd level goes too far.
Nicos |
Lemmy, you still did not addresses the major problem with the Rogue the inability to get sneak attacks on a consistent basis.
I disagree with this.
The major problem with rogues is their reliance on sneak attack. The alchemist/inquisitors/magus etc coudl have tons of options, the rogue seem sto snea attack this sneak attack that, always.
Imho, options beyond "I sneak attack" is the way to go.
My Self |
Would it hurt to give them full DEX to damage after 3 levels?
Also, the pseudo-BAB with a specific combat style feels a bit clunky. Sure, it covers the to-hit penalties, but it feels like you're just trying to get full BAB back for certain weapons.
Perhaps you could have Debilitating Injury? Also, maybe the ability to consider your opponent flatfooted for the first strike each round, or the first strike in a full attack action.
Also, being able to count as flanking for ranged sneak attacks.
Maybe Brutes can get heavier armor?
Lemmy |
Would it hurt to give them full DEX to damage after 3 levels?
This way avoid dipping... Besides, unless you're using absurdly high point-buy, chances are you'll be using your full Dex anyway by 4th or 5th level.
Also, the pseudo-BAB with a specific combat style feels a bit clunky. Sure, it covers the to-hit penalties, but it feels like you're just trying to get full BAB back for certain weapons.
It seems pretty simple to me. It's a scaling +1 bonus. It's supposed to give Rogues a good accuracy without giving them Full BAB (which has other advantages besides the bonus to accuracy, such as qualifying for feats and getting iterative attacks earlier).
Perhaps you could have Debilitating Injury? Also, maybe the ability to consider your opponent flatfooted for the first strike each round, or the first strike in a full attack action.
One of my goals in this homebrew was to make Rogues less dependent on Sneak Attacks. There are a few Rogue Talents that are very similar to Debilitating Injury (but mine came first!). Besides, there isn't much point in making this homebrew work like the Unchained Rogue... We already have the Unchained Rogue for that.
Also, being able to count as flanking for ranged sneak attacks.
Eh... Not sure about that one. Though I do want to add more Rogue Talents for ranged combat.
Maybe Brutes can get heavier armor?
Medium armor is good enough, IMO. Heavy Armor should be exclusive to class that really need it and/or, are supposed to have higher AC than other combat classes or are meant represent a character archetype that typically uses heavy armor, such as Fighters, Cavaliers and Paladins.
The Rogue doesn't fit any of those descriptions. Besides... Medium armor is usually the optimal choice anyway...